Average and Highest AC?

[mgshamster]

What's the average AC and the highest AC you can get for each class at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20?

With or without appropriate magic items for the level.

[Slipperychicken]

How do we define "average AC"? Assign a frequency to each possible AC, then use that to compute a weighted average?

[Naanomi]

Non-frontliners end up around 13/15 without magic items or temporary buffs, tankier types at 17/21. I figured max possible AC at 71, but SCAG material has probably bumped it slightly

[mgshamster]

How do we define "average AC"? Assign a frequency to each possible AC, then use that to compute a weighted average?

Maybe something reasonable for the class that isn't specifically built for AC defense?

I'm trying to do some analysis for homebrew and I want to take into consideration the AC of each class - but I'm not sure what they would be.

[Grod_The_Giant]

When I was looking at things, I came up with four types of AC: Light, Medium, Heavy and Unarmored, each with and without shield. Calculate then out assuming good ability scores (maybe one less than the highest for that level, maybe just maxed out), then average. That's a reasonable estimation, though you could weight it by how many classes have access to each type. I wouldn't worry too much about things like Defensive combat style- those are pretty niche and they're supposed to be extra anyway.

[Raimun]

At low levels I don't think you can't get an AC much higher than 22.

You play a paladin and fight in the heaviest non-magical heavy armor, with a shield, pick the +1 AC fighting style at 2nd level and cast Shield of Faith on your first turn of combat, if you think it will be a tough fight. Boom. AC 22.

[mgshamster]

What about casters?

What would you expect a typical caster AC to be?

I figure clerics would be in the high teens, maybe low 20s. The rest would be in the mid teens, maybe temporarily in the high teens with a spell. Accurate?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

When I was looking at things, I came up with four types of AC: Light, Medium, Heavy and Unarmored, each with and without shield.

Off the top of my head math with typical builds would put it as:

Light with Dex focus: 13/15 to 17-18(dual-wield feat)/19 without magic items over the course of their career. Before the slash is without shield, after is with a shield. Best possible magic items put it at 25 AC.
Light Caster: 13/15 to 14-15/16-17 without magic items or special focus.
Medium: 15/17 to 17/19 without magic items or special focus. Best possible with feats and items is 26 AC
Heavy: 15/17 to 18/20 without magic items or special focus. Best possible is 26 AC
Unarmored Caster: Around 12 baseline. 15 with mage armor. More can be achieved with investment, but it's very build dependent.
Unarmored Barb: 15-16/17-18 to 20-22/22-24. Magic items can bump this up 2 or 3 AC I think.
Unarmored Monk: 15-16 to 18-20. Magic items can bump this up 2 or 3 AC I think.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

What about casters?

What would you expect a typical caster AC to be?

I figure clerics would be in the high teens, maybe low 20s. The rest would be in the mid teens, maybe temporarily in the high teens with a spell. Accurate?More or less. Figuring that most casters will be more focused on their casting stat than pumping dexterity (at least, at first) you'll probably see between +1 and +3 dex. This means unarmored AC between 11 and 13. It's easy enough for a wizard or non-draconic sorcerer to pick up Mage Armor so they would make it 14 to 16 for the spell's 8 hours. (Draconic sorcerers have natural armor with the same value as Mage Armor so they'd get that level of AC at all times.) Warlocks can wear light armor so they'll usually have 2 more points of AC than an unarmored wizard or sorcerer.

Divine casters are a whole different situation since they get more armor proficiencies but they'll tend to have about the same AC as other medium armor wearers, maybe a little lower if they didn't prioritize getting to 14 dexterity or a little higher with spells like Shield of Faith active.

[Gfrobbin84]

Non-frontliners end up around 13/15 without magic items or temporary buffs, tankier types at 17/21. I figured max possible AC at 71, but SCAG material has probably bumped it slightly

How in the world would you ever reach an AC of 71?

[mgshamster]

How in the world would you ever reach an AC of 71?

Technically, you can get an AC of infinity, because the Tomes that boost your dex have no clause that says they can't be stacked. But that, just like the ACs that go into the high 30s and beyond, are not reasonable for any given game.

I'm fine with assuming a rough cap of 26 for my proposes.

[Rysto]

At low levels I don't think you can't get an AC much higher than 22.

You play a paladin and fight in the heaviest non-magical heavy armor, with a shield, pick the +1 AC fighting style at 2nd level and cast Shield of Faith on your first turn of combat, if you think it will be a tough fight. Boom. AC 22.

Shouldn't that be AC 23? Or are you saying that a low-level character would never be able to afford plate armour?

[Oramac]

At low levels I don't think you can't get an AC much higher than 22.

You play a paladin and fight in the heaviest non-magical heavy armor, with a shield, pick the +1 AC fighting style at 2nd level and cast Shield of Faith on your first turn of combat, if you think it will be a tough fight. Boom. AC 22.

Variant Human with Magic Initiate, take Shield, and bump that up to AC 27 on a reaction.

[Slipperychicken]

Technically, you can get an AC of infinity, because the Tomes that boost your dex have no clause that says they can't be stacked. But that, just like the ACs that go into the high 30s and beyond, are not reasonable for any given game.

The tomes lack such a clause, but the rules for ability scores say the maximum possible score is 30. That's a hard cap applied to every creature, including both PCs and monsters. This is why no monster has an ability score over 30, and why the ability score table stops there.

[Daishain]

Variant Human with Magic Initiate, take Shield, and bump that up to AC 27 on a reaction.
swordsinger wizard, dex and int at 20. Mage armor + active song gives you a typical AC of 23. Shield bumps to 28

If you can smuggle the fighting style and shield of faith in there as well with a multiclass dip you get a max of 31

Combine all that with Monk or Barb for unarmored defense instead of relying on mage armor, and you could get up to 33, though at that point you need 3 different stats at 20, not exactly easy to achieve, and of course your multiclass monstrosity is going to have trouble doing anything other than defense.

[mgshamster]

The tomes lack such a clause, but the rules for ability scores say the maximum possible score is 30. That's a hard cap applied to every creature, including both PCs and monsters. This is why no monster has an ability score over 30, and why the ability score table stops there.

Oh cool! I didn't even know that rule existed. Thanks!

[DireSickFish]

Everyone that's built decently can get about a 17AC. The tanky types should be rocking around a 21/22AC with possible shield spell usage bumping that to 26-27. There are builds that get higher AC but having heavy armor and a shield is a simple way to get high AC without any real investment.

Poorly built or optimized characters I've seen hovering around 14-15 AC and struggling to get more. Unarmored classes that have races that don't boost mains tats, lox dex characters that don't use heavy armor. That sort of thing.

[Oramac]

Poorly built or optimized characters I've seen hovering around 14-15 AC and struggling to get more. Unarmored classes that have races that don't boost mains tats, lox dex characters that don't use heavy armor. That sort of thing.

The lowest possible AC without a negative Dex is 10 on a caster with +0 dex and no armor.

For that matter, does a negative dex modifier detract from your AC if you're using none/light/medium armor?

[Jamesps]

The lowest possible AC without a negative Dex is 10 on a caster with +0 dex and no armor.

For that matter, does a negative dex modifier detract from your AC if you're using none/light/medium armor?

If your AC calculation includes the Dex stat then negative dex modifiers will substract from your AC.

Only ACs calculated without the Dex stat can avoid penalties like this (heavy armor or barkskin being the most common).

[DireSickFish]

The lowest possible AC without a negative Dex is 10 on a caster with +0 dex and no armor.

For that matter, does a negative dex modifier detract from your AC if you're using none/light/medium armor?

Yeah it's possible to get that 10AC but nobody realistically builds for that. At least not on purpose. I've seen some trash 12-13 AC's for characters but they're the exception.

[Oramac]

If your AC calculation includes the Dex stat then negative dex modifiers will substract from your AC.

Only ACs calculated without the Dex stat can avoid penalties like this (heavy armor or barkskin being the most common).

Good to know. So the lowest possible (theoretical) AC would be 5, since a 0 Dex would be a -5 modifier.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Good to know. So the lowest possible (theoretical) AC would be 5, since a 0 Dex would be a -5 modifier.Technically, you could get as low as 0. A barbarian who somehow managed to get to 0 dexterity and constitution would be adding -5 to their AC for each of those (as would a monk with 0 dexterity and wisdom). It's probably not something that you would ever see in practice, but it is possible.

[Fighting_Ferret]

With a 0 in an ability wouldn't you be dead...

[Lord Il Palazzo]

With a 0 in an ability wouldn't you be dead...Under 3.5 rules, yeah. Having 0 Con would kill you and the others would effectively paralyze you (for the physical abilities) or put you in a coma (for the mental ones).

Fifth edition doesn't have that rule though. Note how the Shadow's monster entry has to spell out specifically that "The target dies if this [Strength Drain attack] reduces its Strength to 0."

[Naanomi]

Barbarian with 30 Dex and 30 Con: AC = 30
Shield +3: +5 AC
Defender Weapon: +3 AC
Defender Fighting Style: +1 AC
Ring of Protection: +1 AC
Cloak of Protection +1 AC
Blessing of Protection: +1 AC
Shield of Faith: +2 AC
Haste: +2 AC
Combat Inspiration: +12 AC
Evasive Footwork: +12 AC
Warforged Race: +1 AC

So a Warforged Barbarian/Battlemaster Fighter, suitably buffed by a Valor Bard and at least two casters (one could be the bard), and maximized defensive gear and blessings... while moving evasively... 71 AC!

[Vogonjeltz]

Barbarian with 30 Dex and 30 Con: AC = 30

Defender Fighting Style: +1 AC

They'd have to be...what, at least 1000+ years old? (From rereading tomes)
And Defense Fighting Style requires the character to wear armor, while Unarmored Defense requires them to not wear armor.

[Daishain]

They'd have to be...what, at least 1000+ years old? (From rereading tomes)
And Defense Fighting Style requires the character to wear armor, while Unarmored Defense requires them to not wear armor.
Nah, "just" 400+ (initial use and 4 recharges for both tomes), assuming they get to 20 in both stats the normal way, fortunately, our hypothetical warforged doesn't age in the normal sense. Alternatively, he could be done right away if he finds 5 of each type of tome, but that just makes it even more ridiculous.

Of course, we are also talking about getting a large number of very specific and powerful magic items in a relatively low magic edition, and rolling the maximum value on two separate d12s

[Slipperychicken]

They'd have to be...what, at least 1000+ years old? (From rereading tomes)
And Defense Fighting Style requires the character to wear armor, while Unarmored Defense requires them to not wear armor.

I think that relies on the interpretation that shields are considered armor for the purpose of that fighting style, since they're listed under the "armor" table. 5e is kind of weird about classifying shields as armor sometimes.

[Daishain]

I think that relies on the interpretation that shields are considered armor for the purpose of that fighting style, since they're listed under the "armor" table. 5e is kind of weird about classifying shields as armor sometimes.
The specific wording of defense fighting style requires that you be wearing armor. By any reasonable definition, armor or not, a shield is carried, not worn.

[Slipperychicken]

The specific wording of defense fighting style requires that you be wearing armor. By any reasonable definition, armor or not, a shield is carried, not worn.

PHB 14, "Your character needs to be proficient with armor and shields to wear and use them effectively..."

PHB 144, Armor Class (AC). It reads "The armor (and shield) you wear determines your base Armor Class".




Shields are alternately described as worn, wielded, and held elsewhere in English, and dnd continues that tradition. In the context of shield use, the three are practically synonymous. In 5th edition dnd rules relating to shields, they are used interchangeably.

edit: Still, the intended interaction between shield and defense style is less clear than I'd like. Someone should bug Sage Advice about it.

[Arkhios]

Yeah it's possible to get that 10AC but nobody realistically builds for that. At least not on purpose. I've seen some trash 12-13 AC's for characters but they're the exception.

A player in a group I'm playing in had a druid whose Dex was 8 and AC was 11. No. I wouldn't consider the player stupid. He has made it very clear to us that whenever he makes a character, he plays a character, not a statblock.

[JackPhoenix]

Barbarian with 30 Dex and 30 Con: AC = 30
Shield +3: +5 AC
Defender Weapon: +3 AC
Defender Fighting Style: +1 AC
Ring of Protection: +1 AC
Cloak of Protection +1 AC
Blessing of Protection: +1 AC
Shield of Faith: +2 AC
Haste: +2 AC
Combat Inspiration: +12 AC
Evasive Footwork: +12 AC
Warforged Race: +1 AC

So a Warforged Barbarian/Battlemaster Fighter, suitably buffed by a Valor Bard and at least two casters (one could be the bard), and maximized defensive gear and blessings... while moving evasively... 71 AC!

If you're using UA, there's also Mariner FS for another +1 when wearing light or no armor. And given the riddiculous circumstances needed for all that, you can add caster level (or Magic Initiate) for another +5 from Shield (or have I missed any bonus from reaction?). And cover.

[Naanomi]

If you're using UA, there's also Mariner FS for another +1 when wearing light or no armor. And given the riddiculous circumstances needed for all that, you can add caster level (or Magic Initiate) for another +5 from Shield (or have I missed any bonus from reaction?). And cover.
Mariner combat style could be factored in there for an additional +1 yes, with 2 levels of Paladin or Ranger. Cover as well. Upping the total to 77 AC?

My reaction, however, is taken by Evasive Footwork: +12 AC