What if I cast DAYlight on an enemies sword or other weapon ...

[timoteo]

I was trying to think of a more proactive way for my level-1 character to use the "free" Daylight spell he gets as an ability, so ...

What if I cast it on an enemy's sword (or other melee weapon)? Would that not render it somewhat useless for a while? In other words, having the sword in front of them would be pretty blinding, so they would have to either:

a) Swing the sword blindly,; or
b) Turn there head away, etc. and try to swing and hit.

So couldn't that massively debuff their to-hit or some such thing? (As they would be swingly wildly more or less.)

(realize I would have to actually touch the sword, which *might* present its own issues.)

Thanks for any input!

-Tim

[Gildedragon]

unless they got light sensitivity it doesn't hurt them. It does, however, make them easily visible (even if invisible) and it has no save

[timoteo]

unless they got light sensitivity it doesn't hurt them. It does, however, make them easily visible (even if invisible) and it has no save

Hi, and thanks for the reply. Are sure they would have to have light sensitivity? I mean, I don't have light sensitivity, but if you shine a decent flash light in my face (which would be many times weaker than a daylight spell) I can't see anything but the light ... and then am partially blinded afterwards for a little while.

As far as I can tell daylight is the brightest light source mentioned in the PRD, right? But you are right, I can't find a mechanic for such a thing to happen. I guess ultimately it would be up to the DM then, eh?

[Belzyk]

Hi, and thanks for the reply. Are sure they would have to have light sensitivity? I mean, I don't have light sensitivity, but if you shine a decent flash light in my face (which would be many times weaker than a daylight spell) I can't see anything but the light ... and then am partially blinded afterwards for a little while.

As far as I can tell daylight is the brightest light source mentioned in the PRD, right? But you are right, I can't find a mechanic for such a thing to happen. I guess ultimately it would be up to the DM then, eh?

Yes ultimately it would be up to your dm

[Jowgen]

The DM might rule that having a bright weapon so close by warrants a circumstance penalty to Spot, Search and/or Attack rolls; but that is purely up to said DM.

[Gildedragon]

Hi, and thanks for the reply. Are sure they would have to have light sensitivity? I mean, I don't have light sensitivity, but if you shine a decent flash light in my face (which would be many times weaker than a daylight spell) I can't see anything but the light ... and then am partially blinded afterwards for a little while.

As far as I can tell daylight is the brightest light source mentioned in the PRD, right? But you are right, I can't find a mechanic for such a thing to happen. I guess ultimately it would be up to the DM then, eh?

The effect of casting daylight dazzling anyone close to it is probably worse for the players in the long run; after all if it dazzles the person carrying it, it ought dazzle whoever is getting attacked with it.

[Duke of Urrel]

What if I cast it on an enemy's sword (or other melee weapon)?

That's easier said than done. It's a little like belling the cat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belling_the_cat).

The main problem is that you must touch your enemy's sword in order to cast the Daylight spell upon it. You must make an attack roll to do this, the sword's Armor Class adds your enemy's Dexterity modifier plus the sword's size modifier (at least +4), and you provoke an attack of opportunity from your enemy. Read about these rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder).

But if you manage to bestow the Daylight spell upon your enemy's sword by touching it, I think this would have all the benefits that others have mentioned (e.g. possibly imposing the light sensitivity penalty on your enemy). In addition, your enemy would have a hard time hiding from you or hiding the sword, because you would be able to follow the sword's light with your eyes. According to the Rules Compendium, a light in the darkness is visible (at Spot DC 20) from a distance equal to 20 times its radius of illumination. It is automatically spotted at a distance of 10 times its radius of illumination. Any object that bears the Daylight spell illuminates a radius of 60 feet, so we're talking about 1200 feet and 600 feet, respectively.

[Red Fel]

Spells do what their descriptions say they do, no more and no less.

Here's the spell description:
You touch an object when you cast this spell, causing the object to shed bright light in a 60-foot radius. This illumination increases the light level for an additional 60 feet by one step (darkness becomes dim light, dim light becomes normal light, and normal light becomes bright light). Creatures that take penalties in bright light take them while within the 60-foot radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light.

Other than some caveats about its interactions with Darkness, that's pretty much all the description says that's relevant.

So, let's say you somehow touch your opponent's sword without being skewered. The sword is now shiny, and inflicts penalties on creatures that take penalties in bright light.

That's all that the spell does. You're trying to turn this spell into some sort of debuff, which it is not, by applying reason and murdering catgirls.

[Necroticplague]

I was trying to think of a more proactive way for my level-1 character to use the "free" Daylight spell he gets as an ability, so ...

What if I cast it on an enemy's sword (or other melee weapon)? Would that not render it somewhat useless for a while? In other words, having the sword in front of them would be pretty blinding, so they would have to either:

a) Swing the sword blindly,; or
b) Turn there head away, etc. and try to swing and hit.

So couldn't that massively debuff their to-hit or some such thing? (As they would be swingly wildly more or less.)

Nope. Spell doesn't say it does that, so it doesn't.

[Gallowglass]

I was trying to think of a more proactive way for my level-1 character to use the "free" Daylight spell he gets as an ability, so ...

What if I cast it on an enemy's sword (or other melee weapon)? Would that not render it somewhat useless for a while? In other words, having the sword in front of them would be pretty blinding, so they would have to either:

a) Swing the sword blindly,; or
b) Turn there head away, etc. and try to swing and hit.

So couldn't that massively debuff their to-hit or some such thing? (As they would be swingly wildly more or less.)

(realize I would have to actually touch the sword, which *might* present its own issues.)

Thanks for any input!

-Tim

WOW, you guys are brutal.

Hi Tim, I can see from your 4 posts that you haven't been here long. Perhaps you are a new or 1st time player.

First, I love your creativity. Creative solutions are always awesome and fun to think up. When you have an ability, its good to try to think of new and inventive ways to use it.

The thing with D&D 3.5/PF is that its a very rules-heavy, regimented game. That's where the "spell does what it says and no more" mentality comes from. You see, there are other spells and abilities already defined in the rules that do the kind of thing you are describing. So if your DM lets you do what you are describing with your daylight ability, it risks deflating or rendering some other player's skills and abilities redundant by letting you get free access to the ability they have to use a spell or feat to get access to.

That doesn't mean you should feel discouraged. If you are playing a game with other first-time or newish players your DM -may- let you use a trick like that because it IS creative and IS a fun idea.

But it doesn't work the way the rules are written. Which is why D&D has the overriding rule that the DM can make something work if he is okay with it.

And, I think you were trying to ask more than just "will this work", it seems like you were looking for other creative ways to use your ability.

One strategy for daylight is to distract foes. You cast it on a rock or something inside a bag. It lasts for 20 minutes per level, so it will glow a long time. Then you can do something like pull it out of the bag, and throw it off in one direction to get the enemies to go that way instead of blocking the way you and your group are trying to sneak.

One thing I've seen done with it is to cast it on an object in a pile of treasure that includes some magical treasure. The glow from the daylight MAY confuse people using detect magic to not being able to easily see the magical auras of the other treasure. Now, this is another DMs call use, but I've seen it work in a game.

I hope you keep posting. I spent a lot of years lurking on this board before I ever posted.

[Red Fel]

WOW, you guys are brutal.

Hi, have we met? I'm Red Fel.


First, I love your creativity. Creative solutions are always awesome and fun to think up. When you have an ability, its good to try to think of new and inventive ways to use it.

For what it's worth, I agree with this. As DM, I try to reward creative, out-of-the-box thinking. Within reason. Some creative uses for spells I'd be willing to consider. But, given how spells in D&D/PF pretty much already trump everything else, there are limits to my willingness.

And even that is anecdotal. What I'm willing to do as DM goes beyond the RAW, the rules-as-written, but only up to a point. And you can't very well ask what we, as DMs, would do, because that has no impact on what your DM would do in the same circumstances; the only constant is the RAW, so the answer you're most likely to get is the RAW.


One strategy for daylight is to distract foes. You cast it on a rock or something inside a bag. It lasts for 20 minutes per level, so it will glow a long time. Then you can do something like pull it out of the bag, and throw it off in one direction to get the enemies to go that way instead of blocking the way you and your group are trying to sneak.

One thing I've seen done with it is to cast it on an object in a pile of treasure that includes some magical treasure. The glow from the daylight MAY confuse people using detect magic to not being able to easily see the magical auras of the other treasure. Now, this is another DMs call use, but I've seen it work in a game.

These are good ideas. Fact is, the spell only does what it says it does - imbues an object touched with a bright radius of light. What you do with that object, however, is entirely up to you. Hurling a brightly lit object down a hall pretty much demands that people pay attention - a perfect diversion. Using a Bluff check to convince people that it's dangerous is another useful trick. And let's not forget that one in three magic items glow - you could always use it to trick someone into believing that an ordinary piece of equipment is magical.

[graeylin]

I have had to think of light in the DnD world the same as light sources in movies: it really isn't realistic.

In movies (and DnD), I see folks carrying torches in really dark hallways, in front of their faces, with no apparent problem. I see folks with coleman lantern type lights, holding them head high, and spotting a creature in the shadows thirty feet away. and yet, when I camp, and I have a lantern casting radial light, held up to my head, I can't see squat except the light. Let alone, anything in the shadows at the edge of the camp.

In DnD, there are some very odd rules for light (and spells that provide it), and so, you get bound up by those rules. And bottom line, they aren't necessarily realistic. They got squeezed down into bite sized units, for ease of play. And in doing so, some things get shoved into the "DM call" or "It's how the rules are" area.

So, can the spell do what you want? No, not really, because this is one of the rules of physics DnD had to leave out.

Can you do it?

Ask your DM. If you want to touch someone's weapon, and use this spell, and your DM agrees on the impact and effect, more power to you! Maybe it gives a bit of an edge to your team. Good for you!

Just remember, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so... here's hoping your enemies don't cast daylight on an arrow, and stick it into your chest. Or shield. Or leg.

[timoteo]

Wow! Thanks to everyone (even you "brutes" :wink:) for all the detailed and thoughtful replies. Yes, I guess I am very much a newb ... well, I played a little (very little) when I was a tween, and that was like 30 years ago -- so yeah, I'm a newb. I just joined a group with my young adult son and his friends. The DM is real stickler for the rules (which is fine ... as someone said, it keeps it the most consistent) ... but I might just ask anyway.

Special thanks to Gallowglass for getting where I'm coming from, and appreciating the creativity. I love coming up with things people would not have thought of ... but I also understand that people who -- I think it's called "meta" -- too much, can ruin it too. Which I completely understand. This kind of thing might fall into that category a bit I suppose, but I thought meta was more going off on a tangent and kind of creating things that don't align with context of the game.

But anyway, thanks again and, no .... no one was too brutal ... maybe a TAD jaded-sounding (and I even use that very lightly). Nothing compared to some boards I've been a newb on, by far.

While I seem to have (at least) a few knowledgeable people's ears ... can someone explain to me what a "BAD SAVE" is, as opposed to a GOOD SAVE. I mean I understand saving throws, but my Summoner's Eidolon level table lists GOOD BASE SAVES and BAD SAVE column. I can't find info on Bad Saves anywhere. Thanks!

-Tim

[zergling.exe]

Wow! Thanks to everyone (even you "brutes" :wink:) for all the detailed and thoughtful replies. Yes, I guess I am very much a newb ... well, I played a little (very little) when I was a tween, and that was like 30 years ago -- so yeah, I'm a newb. I just joined a group with my young adult son and his friends. The DM is real stickler for the rules (which is fine ... as someone said, it keeps it the most consistent) ... but I might just ask anyway.

Special thanks to Gallowglass for getting where I'm coming from, and appreciating the creativity. I love coming up with things people would not have thought of ... but I also understand that people who -- I think it's called "meta" -- too much, can ruin it too. Which I completely understand. This kind of thing might fall into that category a bit I suppose, but I thought meta was more going off on a tangent and kind of creating things that don't align with context of the game.

But anyway, thanks again and, no .... no one was too brutal ... maybe a TAD jaded-sounding (and I even use that very lightly). Nothing compared to some boards I've been a newb on, by far.

While I seem to have (at least) a few knowledgeable people's ears ... can someone explain to me what a "BAD SAVE" is, as opposed to a GOOD SAVE. I mean I understand saving throws, but my Summoner's Eidolon level table lists GOOD BASE SAVES and BAD SAVE column. I can't find info on Bad Saves anywhere. Thanks!

-Tim

Good saves and poor saves are merely refering to how quickly the base saves increase, which are which is defined by the base form of your eidolon.

[timoteo]

Good saves and poor saves are merely refering to how quickly the base saves increase, which are which is defined by the base form of your eidolon.

Ahhhh, ok, I see ... duh. So, looking at the base form WITH the chart you derive the scores. So, for Biped it says "Saves Fort (good), Ref (bad), Will (good)" ... then I am just recording whatever the chart says for good in both Fort and Will, but Bad in Ref. I was just applying the Good scores to all three, and wondering where bad went. Duh. Basically, I ignored (or forgot about) the base frm info.

Thanks!!

[graeylin]

Good save (progression) and bad save (progression) is a better way to understand the shorthand lingo.

If you get a +2 under that save on your first level, that's a good save progression path. If you get a +0, that's a bad progression path. Most bad paths end up with half the saves at level 20 as the good.

Every class gets a good save, and a bad one. The third one varies. Some classes get two good, some get two bad..

Alternately, think of them as "fast" and "slow" saves.

[timoteo]

Good save (progression) and bad save (progression) is a better way to understand the shorthand lingo.

If you get a +2 under that save on your first level, that's a good save progression path. If you get a +0, that's a bad progression path. Most bad paths end up with half the saves at level 20 as the good.

Every class gets a good save, and a bad one. The third one varies. Some classes get two good, some get two bad..

Alternately, think of them as "fast" and "slow" saves.

Yeah, that's exactly how I started thinking of them ... fast and slow. Progression is the perfect way to describe it. Now looking back, I can see via the table that (even though not labeled as such), the Summoner has two BAD SAVES (Fort and Ref) ... they're just not labeled as such of course. However, on the same page, the Eidolon's table actually says "GOOD" and "BAD". This is simply a function of how they went about covering all the separate builds of Eidonlons ... keeping it to one table. That was where the confusion (at least for this newbie) originated.