Bonus Action Spells vs. Bonus Action Cantrips

[uraniumrooster]

Alright, this question probably has a much simpler answer than I realize, but I've been thinking in circles over it and need some input.

Relevant excerpt (PHB, P.202):
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

It's pretty clear that if a character casts a bonus action spell, they're limited to just cantrips if they want to cast a spell using their action. What I'm not clear on is if a character casts a bonus action cantrip, are they able to cast a spell of 1st level or higher using their action, or would they still be limited to only casting another cantrip for that turn?

I've always paraphrased the rule in my head as essentially limiting a character to no more than one spell of 1st level or higher on a turn, which could be paired with one cantrip, regardless of which was a bonus action and which was an action. That is, you could mix and match... bonus action spell/action cantrip, bonus action cantrip/action spell, or two cantrips. Just never two spells.

But, I just looked again at that rule, and it actually doesn't say what I thought it did. It seems like it actually limits a character to only casting a cantrip with their action if they use their bonus action to cast any spell, cantrip or otherwise (since cantrips are just 0-level spells). This seems like it would be an arbitrary restriction. If it's possible to cast a bonus action spell (1st level or higher) followed by a single action cantrip, shouldn't it also be possible to cast a bonus action cantrip followed by a single action spell?

Is there a problem with allowing a bonus action cantrip and a single action spell that I'm missing? Is it just a badly worded rule? What's the dealio?

[DanyBallon]

I'd say you can, and that it may have been an omission as prior to EEPC there was only a single bonus action cantrip, and even with the supplement, there are only two of such spells.

[Slipperychicken]

I haven't seen a combination that's actually bad. My group typically casts shillelagh as a bonus action while using an action for a regular spell. So far no harm has come of it, and I don't see how it would.

[SharkForce]

technically not allowed. i would allow it for games where i DM.

also, worth noting: action surge can allow you to cast two spells in a turn with a one-action casting time, and neither of them has to be a cantrip. you can even cast a reaction spell on your own turn in addition to that, no problem. however, as soon as you cast any spell as a bonus action (including cantrips), all other spells cast in that turn must be cantrips.

[Arial Black]

I can see your dilemma.

Sometimes the rules refer to 'cantrips' and 'spells' as if cantrips are not spells, and sometimes as if they are spells.

Foe example, there is no 'cast a cantrip' action; to cast a cantrip you must use the 'cast a spell' action.

However, class descriptions tell you how many spells you know, AND how many cantrips you know, as if the two are different things!

When you gain a level in a spellcasting (or pact magic) class where you have a certain number of 'spells known', not only is this definitely separate to the number of 'cantrips known' but you are allowed to 'forget' one already known spell and replace it with another spell of a level you can now cast. Can you swap known cantrips in this way? I think not.

[Vogonjeltz]

I can see your dilemma.

Sometimes the rules refer to 'cantrips' and 'spells' as if cantrips are not spells, and sometimes as if they are spells.

Foe example, there is no 'cast a cantrip' action; to cast a cantrip you must use the 'cast a spell' action.

However, class descriptions tell you how many spells you know, AND how many cantrips you know, as if the two are different things!

When you gain a level in a spellcasting (or pact magic) class where you have a certain number of 'spells known', not only is this definitely separate to the number of 'cantrips known' but you are allowed to 'forget' one already known spell and replace it with another spell of a level you can now cast. Can you swap known cantrips in this way? I think not.

Well, cantrips are spells, they're just a specific type of spell that has some different rules. So in that sense, spells and cantrips are two different things.

And the class descriptions specify that Spells Known is 1st level spells and higher, which definitively excludes Cantrips as those are 0th level. The terms, as defined, are used appropriately and consistently by the book.

[Demonic Spoon]

Is there a problem with allowing a bonus action cantrip and a single action spell that I'm missing? Is it just a badly worded rule? What's the dealio?

It would be a major boost and a bit of a janky interaction with Quicken Spell. In any scenario where you would want to cast a spell and a cantrip in the same turn, it becomes substantially more efficient to quicken the cantrip instead of the spell itself.

[SharkForce]

It would be a major boost and a bit of a janky interaction with Quicken Spell. In any scenario where you would want to cast a spell and a cantrip in the same turn, it becomes substantially more efficient to quicken the cantrip instead of the spell itself.

you must be thinking of twin. quicken costs the same no matter what you quicken.

[Zalabim]

It does become slightly more efficient, as you can use a different metamagic on the full spell and quicken on the cantrip in that case. Heighten Hold Person + Quicken Acid Splash would be more effective than Quicken Hold Person + Heighten Acid Splash, to use an absurd example.

[DivisibleByZero]

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

The order you choose to cast them doesn't matter. It's still the same turn.
So according to the rules, if you cast a spell as a bonus action at any time during your turn you may not cast any other spells except for (non-bonus action) cantrips that require your action.
Interestingly, that includes using Action Surge, because it's still the same turn. So if you want to Action Surge a second spell that isn't a cantrip, none of the spells cast may be cast as a bonus action.

Your DM's mileage may vary, but dem's da rulez.
Personally, I run it as you initially interpreted it, limiting to one slot used (excluding Action Surge, which would allow a second slot usable).... but that's an houserule. The actual rule is as you read it the second time and as I stated above.

[Arial Black]

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

The order you choose to cast them doesn't matter. It's still the same turn.
So according to the rules, if you cast a spell as a bonus action at any time during your turn you may not cast any other spells except for (non-bonus action) cantrips that require your action.
Interestingly, that includes using Action Surge, because it's still the same turn. So if you want to Action Surge a second spell that isn't a cantrip, none of the spells cast may be cast as a bonus action.

Your DM's mileage may vary, but dem's da rulez.
Personally, I run it as you initially interpreted it, limiting to one slot used (excluding Action Surge, which would allow a second slot usable).... but that's an houserule. The actual rule is as you read it the second time and as I stated above.

If 'cantrip' and 'spell' are different things, then any rule about casting bonus action spells simply does not apply to bonus action cantrips.

[DivisibleByZero]

If 'cantrip' and 'spell' are different things, then any rule about casting bonus action spells simply does not apply to bonus action cantrips.

Not only has that already been addressed, but it has already been addressed within this very thread.... and we're still on the first page only 12 posts into the thread, so I have to assume that you saw it and ignored it.
What action do you take when casting a cantrip? You take the Cast a Spell action. Where are cantrips described in the PHB? They're described under the Spells section.
Cantrips are spells. Your argument is invalid.

[Arial Black]

Not only has that already been addressed, but it has already been addressed within this very thread.... and we're still on the first page only 12 posts into the thread, so I have to assume that you saw it and ignored it.
What action do you take when casting a cantrip? You take the Cast a Spell action. Where are cantrips described in the PHB? They're described under the Spells section.
Cantrips are spells. Your argument is invalid.

I already pointed those things out in one of my previous posts. There are many places in the rules which treat 'spells' and 'cantrips' as the same thing, including the parts you mention.

The dilemma is that there are other parts of the rules which treat them as if they are different. Usually, it's obvious in context which way round they mean it, but not in this case.

In this case, the rule differentiates between 'spells' and 'cantrips' because part of the rule is about the difference between the two. We can't be certain if the rest of the rule treats them as the same or as different things.

Put it this way: if the rules very definitely and always treated them as two distinct things, then this rule would still work perfectly as written.

[DivisibleByZero]

The dilemma is that there are other parts of the rules which treat them as if they are different. Usually, it's obvious in context which way round they mean it, but not in this case.

Yes, it is obvious in this case.

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."

So obviously, if cantrips are specifically called as an exception to the rule stating that you can't cast any more spells, then clearly in this case cantrips are indeed spells, or no such specific exception would be required.
Cantrips are spells. Cantrips are always spells.
The only cases where cantrips and higher level spells are treated differently is in learning them, and the fact that they scale without increasing their non-existent level. Those are literally the only differences. They are spells, but have a few different rules than higher leveled spells.

[bid]

The dilemma is that there are other parts of the rules which treat them as if they are different. Usually, it's obvious in context which way round they mean it, but not in this case.
You mean, places where they say "of 1st level or higher"?

Is the "spell known" shorthand in the class tables the only place, or does the confusion also happens in full text anywhere?

Please show an actual case.