Monsters with Dubious CRs

[Dr. Cliché]

Are there any monsters in 5th that you think are rated too high or low in terms of CR?

[Gastronomie]

Intellect Devourer. Not necesarrily that its CR is too low - rather that its ability needs to be somehow nerfed. Our table homebrewed that healing will restore a target's Intellect. Unless that's done, it's absolutely lethal to any level 2 adventurer.

Also, perhaps consider giving the Drow's poison crossbow something like "repeat save at the end of every turn". It can be stronger than you imagine when it goes off.

[SharkForce]

the pixie is viewed by many as having a very inappropriate CR. there are those who disagree, however.

i would also personally argue the archmage, *if played as an archmage* rather than as a person standing around in a dungeon room waiting to get attacked, has a very silly CR that does not accurately reflect how difficult it is to fight against one.

[Gastronomie]

i would also personally argue the archmage, *if played as an archmage* rather than as a person standing around in a dungeon room waiting to get attacked, has a very silly CR that does not accurately reflect how difficult it is to fight against one.This is true with most intelligent creatures in the MM, since they have their own plans and guards to keep stuff under control. Archmage especially has Teleport, and can run away from unfavorable situations if he wishes to.

[NewDM]

As above, plus any creature that can cast spells or has spell like abilities. They are much more swingy and difficult than they appear.

In a recent game session, we fought one and it nearly dropped the party with a single Cloud Kill spell. We got lucky though as the Barbarian charged it and unloaded all of their attacks on it dropping it in one round. If the Barbarian hadn't managed to drop a crit on its head, we would have died to a CR and xp appropriate encounter.

[Kaerou]

Ghosts.

Their ability basically bypasses the entire CR system. Its basically a save or die.

Humans are just destroyed by it regardless of their level unless they have the pre-requisite saving throw.

Granted, some races don't have any issue with them (such as elves) but if you're playing a human character of any respectable age they can pretty much destroy you.

And this isn't even getting in to their possession ability..

[Mith]

In a one shot game I ran at 1st level, I found a harpy to be pretty strong with it's luring song. Almost got the entire party. One guy saved. He was able to snap other people out of the song. If he had failed, pretty sure I could have killed a good portion of the party at that point, if not the entire party.

[Pex]

I don't know what it was, but recently as 6th level characters we fought some constructs that paralyzed you then pummeled you with 5 attacks the next round. Any creature that gets 5 attacks is not suitable against 6th level characters.

[kaoskonfety]

I don't know what it was, but recently as 6th level characters we fought some constructs that paralyzed you then pummeled you with 5 attacks the next round. Any creature that gets 5 attacks is not suitable against 6th level characters.

Pentadrones - the 5th tier of Modron. The gas is nasty, a few fails saves and it gets out of hand fast...

[Kane0]

Ive seen banshees do horrific things to unprepared and unlucky groups.

[EvilAnagram]

I have a rough time judging this. Usually, my party of three can handle creatures above their CR. Hell, at level 5 the Fighter soloed a CR 4 Bone Naga. Generally, everything at CR 2 and below seems deadlier to CR appropriate characters.

[RickAllison]

Will o' Wisps. Only CR 2, but the combination of a relatively high AC, good resistances, and its movement options make it a deceptively hard encounter.

[Pex]

Pentadrones - the 5th tier of Modron. The gas is nasty, a few fails saves and it gets out of hand fast...

Yes. Two PCs died. I don't remember how many there were, but it was a lot. Granted there were 8 PCs. I think the DM screwed up the balance, not in a "tyrannical" way as I like to say in other threads :smallsmile: but an Honest True mistake. The creature, though, is feces.

[NewDM]

So to summarize, sacks of HP are easier than the CR system says, creatures that cause negative Conditions are much harder than the CR system says.

[kaoskonfety]

Yes. Two PCs died. I don't remember how many there were, but it was a lot. Granted there were 8 PCs. I think the DM screwed up the balance, not in a "tyrannical" way as I like to say in other threads :smallsmile: but an Honest True mistake. The creature, though, is feces.

From prior experience, specifically its the control AOE effects against a large group of PC's that would have messed that up math wise. One Drone hits the whole party of 8 due to it being unexpected and 3-5 are out of the fight easily, and now the encounter is WAY off CR for the remaining 4-ish PCs and they have no answers regardless of how squishy the drones are.

[Flashy]

Yes. Two PCs died. I don't remember how many there were, but it was a lot. Granted there were 8 PCs. I think the DM screwed up the balance, not in a "tyrannical" way as I like to say in other threads :smallsmile: but an Honest True mistake. The creature, though, is feces.

I generally don't overdefend 5e's balance, but this situation may genuinely have just been a problem of DM miscalculation? They're only CR 2, but even as few as 10 pentadrones (only two more modrons than players) is a very nearly deadly encounter for eight 6th level PCs. The way bounded accuracy starts to run away with itself when the enemies are swarming can get pretty nuts.


From prior experience, specifically its the control AOE effects against a large group of PC's that would have messed that up math wise. One Drone hits the whole party of 8 due to it being unexpected and 3-5 are out of the fight easily, and now the encounter is WAY off CR for the remaining 4-ish PCs and they have no answers regardless of how squishy the drones are.

Also this.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Is 'sometimes dropping a few characters in a theoretically-appropriate encounter' indicative of the monsters having the wrong CR? I thought that was what was supposed to happen. :smallconfused:

In other news, the glass-cannon design of the assassin can cause problems. If it gets the drop on you, you're screwed, otherwise it's not much of a threat. So either way the CR looks inappropriate.

[EvilAnagram]

So to summarize, sacks of HP are easier than the CR system says, creatures that cause negative Conditions are much harder than the CR system says.

It depends on level, abilities, and magic items. An ogre, for example, can one-hit kill a first level character despite being CR 2.

[Dr. Cliché]

It might just be because of the makeup of the party I'm DMing, but Salamanders and Fire Snakes seem a bit strong.

Both varieties have good AC, decent hp, resistance to nonmagical weapons and immunity to the most common element.

The CR1 Fire Snake has 2 attacks which (together) do 2d4+2d6+2 damage.

The CR5 Salamander also has 2 attacks, which (also together) do 8d6+8 damage. What's more, one of those attacks auto-grapples a target with a pretty hard DC.

Finally, anyone hitting a Fire Snake or Salamander in melee takes 1d6 Fire or 2d6 Fire, respectively.

[KorvinStarmast]

If the Barbarian hadn't managed to drop a crit on its head, we would have died to a CR and xp appropriate encounter. You say that like it's a bad thing. Without the threat of failure, what defines success? A hard fight that you just barely survive is what makes this game excellent, and is what leads to stories shared for years.

So to summarize, sacks of HP are easier than the CR system says, creatures that cause negative Conditions are much harder than the CR system says. I think you are on to something. CR is a guide, not a precision surgical instrument.

[JumboWheat01]

It depends on level, abilities, and magic items. An ogre, for example, can one-hit kill a first level character despite being CR 2.

To be fair, a hard sneeze can kill a first level character, especially if they happen to be of the d6 hit die variety.

Generally, I find anything with a particularly hard DC on some ability or another tend to be harder than its CR lets on. Especially at lower levels before you have the proficiency bonus (or heck, even the proficiency,) to actually help you out.

[JellyPooga]

I've always been a little dubious about Hobgoblins, myself. Only CR 1/2 but with 1d8+2d6+1 (4-21, average 12) damage when they hit and AC:18, they're a tough nut to crack at low levels and pack a hell of a punch, despite their roughly average stats. Many low-level characters have a real danger of insta-death when facing these guys and Critical Hits off of them can take massive chunks out of even 4th or 5th level characters (2d8+4d6+1 = 7-41, average 25).

Everyone knows to be scared of the big-bruiser-Bugbear, but Hobgoblins can definitely blindside someone who's thinking they're just more common mooks to mow down.

Multiple Hobgoblins rack up xp pretty quickly on the Encounter Difficulty table once you consider the "multiple enemies" modifier, but teaming up Hobgoblins with weaker allies, such as Goblins, can give them a ready source of Advantage using the Help action in combat; Advantage that translates into more of those deadly Crits.

I'm not convinced that they're really "too low"; I don't think they quite qualify for a full CR:1, but CR:1/2 feels low for how dangerous they can be.

[NewDM]

Is 'sometimes dropping a few characters in a theoretically-appropriate encounter' indicative of the monsters having the wrong CR? I thought that was what was supposed to happen. :smallconfused:

In other news, the glass-cannon design of the assassin can cause problems. If it gets the drop on you, you're screwed, otherwise it's not much of a threat. So either way the CR looks inappropriate.

'Sometimes dropping a few characters' is the description used for deadly encounters.


It depends on level, abilities, and magic items. An ogre, for example, can one-hit kill a first level character despite being CR 2.

CR 2 is too high for a level 1 party. The guidelines tell you not to go over the character level for CR because of exactly that scenario.


You say that like it's a bad thing. Without the threat of failure, what defines success? A hard fight that you just barely survive is what makes this game excellent, and is what leads to stories shared for years.
I think you are on to something. CR is a guide, not a precision surgical instrument.

It wasn't a 'hard fight'. It was a single spell that nearly took out the entire party. The Drow Mage still had 13 more spell slots. If it had survived that hit, it could have finished us off. However the drow mages defenses were pathetic and a single lucky crit took it out. That's part of the swingyness of 5e that I don't like. Everyone and everything seems to be a glass cannon.

[KorvinStarmast]

It wasn't a 'hard fight'. It was a single spell that nearly took out the entire party. The Drow Mage still had 13 more spell slots. If it had survived that hit, it could have finished us off. However the drow mages defenses were pathetic and a single lucky crit took it out. That's part of the swingyness of 5e that I don't like. Everyone and everything seems to be a glass cannon. It appears to me that swinginess is a feature, not a bug, that was intentionally returned to the game. (We got into a scrap with some hogboblins at lvl 3 where their martial advantage feature wreaked havoc on our party. Barely got out of that fight with our skins). In any edition, when it comes to spells save or no save will have a huge impact on a fight (in both directions). Simply having magic in the game, and saving throws, makes it swingy during a given encounter.

Reminder to all players: during a given encounter, the averages don't mean anything. What is actually rolled does.

[EvilAnagram]

CR 2 is too high for a level 1 party. The guidelines tell you not to go over the character level for CR because of exactly that scenario.
No, the guidelines tell you to be wary of using a higher CR. Telling you to be wary is not the same as telling you not to do something.

[supergoji18]

the Balor of all things is overestimated by the CR system. Admittedly, it gets significantly more dangerous the more people enter into melee against it, but if you are stupid enough to enter melee with a creature that has a strength a level 20 barbarian would be jealous of and a flaming aura ability, you deserve whatever happens to you. Against a team of ranged attackers the balor is easier than most other fiends.

The marilith on the other hand is underestimated by the CR system. It makes 7 attacks each round, more than anything else in the entire system, and deals on average over 90 damage a round. Compare that to the balor's average of about 70 to 80. On top of that, melee is useless against it because of parry which it can use once per TURN instead of once per round, effectively making its AC while in melee 23 which is about equal to saying "no" in this edition.

Dragons have been nerfed to hell and back and are just glorified dinosaurs with wings now. The variants make them slightly more dangerous, with the Red and Gold dragons getting a significant power increase from them, but otherwise they are just tons of hit points with a flying speed. Their damage is absolute crap for their CR, even the Ancient Red and Gold only barely exceed 50 damage per round! By the time you're supposed to be fighting them (around level 15 or 16) even a WIZARD could take them for a whole round! (assuming the wizard is using the standard array and puts the 14 into Con and they use the average value of the dice rounded up, a level 16 wizard has about 98 HP, enough to survive the entire multiattack). And you're telling me they're challenge rating 24?

[Dr. Cliché]

Dragons have been nerfed to hell and back and are just glorified dinosaurs with wings now. The variants make them slightly more dangerous, with the Red and Gold dragons getting a significant power increase from them, but otherwise they are just tons of hit points with a flying speed.

CR aside, Dragons just seem kinda boring now. Breath weapon aside, even the ancient ones just boil down to about 4 different flavours of 'hit them'.

[EvilAnagram]

CR aside, Dragons just seem kinda boring now. Breath weapon aside, even the ancient ones just boil down to about 4 different flavours of 'hit them'.

The lair actions are pretty awesome, and the tactical possibilities a gigantic, intelligent flying creature with a breath weapon continue to be massive. As for being giant bags of hit points, without save-or-dies, everything is a bag of hit points.

[NewDM]

the Balor of all things is overestimated by the CR system. Admittedly, it gets significantly more dangerous the more people enter into melee against it, but if you are stupid enough to enter melee with a creature that has a strength a level 20 barbarian would be jealous of and a flaming aura ability, you deserve whatever happens to you. Against a team of ranged attackers the balor is easier than most other fiends.

With Fly 80 there is no such thing as fighting it at range unless you have someone standing there taking the flames. It moves within opportunity attack range in a single round moving 160 feet with a dash. Its intelligence is 20, so that means its at least as smart as Steven Hawking. It should use the best possible strategy.


The marilith on the other hand is underestimated by the CR system. It makes 7 attacks each round, more than anything else in the entire system, and deals on average over 90 damage a round. Compare that to the balor's average of about 70 to 80. On top of that, melee is useless against it because of parry which it can use once per TURN instead of once per round, effectively making its AC while in melee 23 which is about equal to saying "no" in this edition.

23 isn't that much at level 16. Most character have +10 to attack which means 13 or higher to hit. That's 40% hit chance or 64% with advantage. With things like bless and bardic inspiration that chance goes up a lot.


Dragons have been nerfed to hell and back and are just glorified dinosaurs with wings now. The variants make them slightly more dangerous, with the Red and Gold dragons getting a significant power increase from them, but otherwise they are just tons of hit points with a flying speed. Their damage is absolute crap for their CR, even the Ancient Red and Gold only barely exceed 50 damage per round! By the time you're supposed to be fighting them (around level 15 or 16) even a WIZARD could take them for a whole round! (assuming the wizard is using the standard array and puts the 14 into Con and they use the average value of the dice rounded up, a level 16 wizard has about 98 HP, enough to survive the entire multiattack). And you're telling me they're challenge rating 24?

Yes, characters can survive a single round with them, except for their Legendary actions. That's 3 extra attacks. So it can in fact take out a single character if it focus fires.

[Demonic Spoon]

23 isn't that much at level 16. Most character have +10 to attack which means 13 or higher to hit. That's 40% hit chance or 64% with advantage. With things like bless and bardic inspiration that chance goes up a lot.

Let's not forget that 1/turn parry isn't even close to having it up all the time - most PCs making attack rolls against it will be rolling at least two on their turn, and likely way more.

[Democratus]

It might just be because of the makeup of the party I'm DMing, but Salamanders and Fire Snakes seem a bit strong.

Both varieties have good AC, decent hp, resistance to nonmagical weapons and immunity to the most common element.

The CR1 Fire Snake has 2 attacks which (together) do 2d4+2d6+2 damage.

The CR5 Salamander also has 2 attacks, which (also together) do 8d6+8 damage. What's more, one of those attacks auto-grapples a target with a pretty hard DC.

Finally, anyone hitting a Fire Snake or Salamander in melee takes 1d6 Fire or 2d6 Fire, respectively.

I discovered the same thing.

Squishy casters, especially, do not like being pummeled, grappled and set on fire.

When a monster has free stuff like elemental damage or grapples that proc on an attack - it is a force multiplier.

[Dr. Cliché]

I discovered the same thing.

Squishy casters, especially, do not like being pummeled, grappled and set on fire.

When a monster has free stuff like elemental damage or grapples that proc on an attack - it is a force multiplier.

Yeah, I think it almost killed the party's druid just with its tail attack.

Also, the melee fighters were basically killing themselves by hitting it.

[Democratus]

Yeah, I think it almost killed the party's druid just with its tail attack.

Also, the melee fighters were basically killing themselves by hitting it.

Oh, yeah. I forgot that bit. It's like having a Legendary action since they do damage when attacked.

So I'd say CRs are generally low for a creature that can do damage outside of its normal action.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, I think it almost killed the party's druid just with its tail attack.

Also, the melee fighters were basically killing themselves by hitting it.

Why weren't they using ranged weapons or reach weapons?

[Pex]

Is 'sometimes dropping a few characters in a theoretically-appropriate encounter' indicative of the monsters having the wrong CR? I thought that was what was supposed to happen. :smallconfused:

In other news, the glass-cannon design of the assassin can cause problems. If it gets the drop on you, you're screwed, otherwise it's not much of a threat. So either way the CR looks inappropriate.

I don't mind the concept but the how. The paralyzation gas didn't bother me. It was the 5 attacks that immediately followed that did, all autocrits against a paralyzed foe. The only PC who can get 5 attacks is the Fighter, and it happens way later than 6th level. If one of these Modrons is CR 2, then one is expected to face a 2nd level party for a moderate encounter. As I see it, the party is dead.

I can accept monsters follow different rules than PCs, but this is an old irk of mine. I really hated in 2E how monsters got three attacks with claw/claw/bite while PCs only ever got 1 except for fighters and two-weapon users, and even before specialized fighters got 2 attacks per round monsters were already attacking three times. For a 5E monster to have 5 attacks at such a low level of play is horrendous.

[Dr. Cliché]

Why weren't they using ranged weapons or reach weapons?

This was the first time they'd faced one.

[Shining Wrath]

Is 'sometimes dropping a few characters in a theoretically-appropriate encounter' indicative of the monsters having the wrong CR? I thought that was what was supposed to happen. :smallconfused:

In other news, the glass-cannon design of the assassin can cause problems. If it gets the drop on you, you're screwed, otherwise it's not much of a threat. So either way the CR looks inappropriate.

Yeah, I threw an assassin at only part of the party (the rest were outside) but the wizard heard him coming up from behind. He got one good hit in and then the fighter went Hulk and Loki on him (grapple, shove down, action surge, Hulk Smash). 3 level 6 characters took him out with minimal damage.


the Balor of all things is overestimated by the CR system. Admittedly, it gets significantly more dangerous the more people enter into melee against it, but if you are stupid enough to enter melee with a creature that has a strength a level 20 barbarian would be jealous of and a flaming aura ability, you deserve whatever happens to you. Against a team of ranged attackers the balor is easier than most other fiends.

The marilith on the other hand is underestimated by the CR system. It makes 7 attacks each round, more than anything else in the entire system, and deals on average over 90 damage a round. Compare that to the balor's average of about 70 to 80. On top of that, melee is useless against it because of parry which it can use once per TURN instead of once per round, effectively making its AC while in melee 23 which is about equal to saying "no" in this edition.

Dragons have been nerfed to hell and back and are just glorified dinosaurs with wings now. The variants make them slightly more dangerous, with the Red and Gold dragons getting a significant power increase from them, but otherwise they are just tons of hit points with a flying speed. Their damage is absolute crap for their CR, even the Ancient Red and Gold only barely exceed 50 damage per round! By the time you're supposed to be fighting them (around level 15 or 16) even a WIZARD could take them for a whole round! (assuming the wizard is using the standard array and puts the 14 into Con and they use the average value of the dice rounded up, a level 16 wizard has about 98 HP, enough to survive the entire multiattack). And you're telling me they're challenge rating 24?

Dragons need the spellcaster variant just to avoid being copies of one another. Also, I take legendary and lair abilities as things that can change from dragon to dragon.

Don't forget to play dragons as intelligent. They are quite capable of grappling one party member and flying away with them to a place where the rest of the party can't reach. A barbarian trying to solo a dragon atop a 200' tall pillar has troubles ahead.

[EvilAnagram]

This was the first time they'd faced one.

Yeaj, but you figure out pretty quickly that it's not a great idea to stay up close.

[supergoji18]

With Fly 80 there is no such thing as fighting it at range unless you have someone standing there taking the flames. It moves within opportunity attack range in a single round moving 160 feet with a dash. Its intelligence is 20, so that means its at least as smart as Steven Hawking. It should use the best possible strategy.

23 isn't that much at level 16. Most character have +10 to attack which means 13 or higher to hit. That's 40% hit chance or 64% with advantage. With things like bless and bardic inspiration that chance goes up a lot.

Yes, characters can survive a single round with them, except for their Legendary actions. That's 3 extra attacks. So it can in fact take out a single character if it focus fires.
And that's supposed to be impressive for a CR 19 creature?

So forcing an attack to miss 60% of the time on top of being able to deal bucket loads of damage and grapple the target isnt impressive?

Even with those that barely increases their damage per round.


Dragons need the spellcaster variant just to avoid being copies of one another. Also, I take legendary and lair abilities as things that can change from dragon to dragon.

Don't forget to play dragons as intelligent. They are quite capable of grappling one party member and flying away with them to a place where the rest of the party can't reach. A barbarian trying to solo a dragon atop a 200' tall pillar has troubles ahead.
They're still very easy compared to other creatures even of lower CR than them. Pit fiends, a mere CR 20 creature, can cast fireballs at will. A Kraken can summon bursts of lightning and lash out with tentacles to massive range. The Empyrean can blast people with divine bolts from over a football field's distance away and cause earthquakes, storm giants can control the weather however they wish for an entire day. Dragons? The metallic ones can change shape (not useful at all for combat) and have a nerfing breath (somewhat useful). The chromatic ones don't even get that, despite the apparent danger they pose.

I understand that the nerf to dragons was done to simplify their encounters, especially since one of the first official adventures was meant to be super dragon heavy, but come on. They're DRAGONS! The game is literally named after them! They're SUPPOSED to be special! The fluff even says they're supposed to have obscene amounts of magical power. Hell, THE DEMON LORDS ARE RATED AS BEING ON THEIR LEVEL! Heck, some of them are actually rated as LESS powerful than them! So why aren't dragons given anything that make them special?

[Firechanter]

I can accept monsters follow different rules than PCs, but this is an old irk of mine. I really hated in 2E how monsters got three attacks with claw/claw/bite while PCs only ever got 1 except for fighters and two-weapon users, and even before specialized fighters got 2 attacks per round monsters were already attacking three times. For a 5E monster to have 5 attacks at such a low level of play is horrendous.

Yeah, no kidding. Reminds me of that one time in 2E when we fought against Beholders and protected ourselves with an Antimagic Field, but then were beset by four or five Death Kisses. In case anyone doesn't know them, those are a kind of Beholders that have toothy tentacles instead of eyestalks. ~10 attacks per round, each. Within a single round we were beaten to single-digit HP, and the next round would have been a TPK. We only got out of that pickle because I threw a _full_ Necklace of Fireballs at them, for something like 38d6 Fire damage. They didn't even need to roll their saves. To this day, I refer to this incident as Broken Arrow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctnK7wdJmAo).

[MaxWilson]

From prior experience, specifically its the control AOE effects against a large group of PC's that would have messed that up math wise. One Drone hits the whole party of 8 due to it being unexpected and 3-5 are out of the fight easily, and now the encounter is WAY off CR for the remaining 4-ish PCs and they have no answers regardless of how squishy the drones are.

And that is why PCs should maintain proper dispersal. Distance is a primary defense in 5E.

[Shining Wrath]

And that's supposed to be impressive for a CR 19 creature?

So forcing an attack to miss 60% of the time on top of being able to deal bucket loads of damage and grapple the target isnt impressive?

Even with those that barely increases their damage per round.


They're still very easy compared to other creatures even of lower CR than them. Pit fiends, a mere CR 20 creature, can cast fireballs at will. A Kraken can summon bursts of lightning and lash out with tentacles to massive range. The Empyrean can blast people with divine bolts from over a football field's distance away and cause earthquakes, storm giants can control the weather however they wish for an entire day. Dragons? The metallic ones can change shape (not useful at all for combat) and have a nerfing breath (somewhat useful). The chromatic ones don't even get that, despite the apparent danger they pose.

I understand that the nerf to dragons was done to simplify their encounters, especially since one of the first official adventures was meant to be super dragon heavy, but come on. They're DRAGONS! The game is literally named after them! They're SUPPOSED to be special! The fluff even says they're supposed to have obscene amounts of magical power. Hell, THE DEMON LORDS ARE RATED AS BEING ON THEIR LEVEL! Heck, some of them are actually rated as LESS powerful than them! So why aren't dragons given anything that make them special?

An ancient red dragon's breath attack covers 4050 square feet in flames doing on average 91 points of damage and requiring a DC 24 Dex save for half. The pit fiend's fireball we must assume is cast with a level 3 spell slot as nothing indicates otherwise; so, ~1200 square feet (less than 1/3 the area) for 28 points damage on average (less than 1/3 the damage). Now, the dragon can only breathe 1 round out of 3 (on average), skewed by the fact that it always starts with the breath weapon available unless the DM is being nice. In addition, the pit fiend has a fly speed of 60', the dragon, 80'. It's a lot easier for a dragon to hit and run a high level party; Fly grants a speed of 60'. Then consider the dragon gets Legendary Actions, including the Wing Attack which lets it buffet anyone who has gotten close and then move 40'.

And then, as noted, there's lair effects. Pit Fiends don't get those. The red dragon's lair effects as suggested include magma doing 10 points damage to one or more targets (I'm assuming PCs fighting a dragon always make a DC 15 Dex save) and a poison cloud that has a slight chance of incapacitating the wizard.

If you asked me how many pit fiends are needed to invade the lair of an ancient red dragon and survive, I'm guessing at least 2, but 3 is a much safer bet. Of course each is immune to the other's fire attacks, but the dragon's +17 to hit against the Pit Fiend's AC 19 (hit on 2 or more) looks a lot better than the Pit Fiend's +14 to hit against the dragon's AC 22 (hit on 8 or more), plus the dragon has nearly 2x HP.

[UrsusArctos]

Ghosts.

Their ability basically bypasses the entire CR system. Its basically a save or die.

Humans are just destroyed by it regardless of their level unless they have the pre-requisite saving throw.

Granted, some races don't have any issue with them (such as elves) but if you're playing a human character of any respectable age they can pretty much destroy you.

And this isn't even getting in to their possession ability..

5E doesn't impose aging penalties, so a character jumping from 20 to 60 doesn't change them much. Your fighter is going to be as strong and healthy as he was before. Most PCs I've seen are in the 20-30 age bracket.

That said, I did accidentally kill one of my players with that ability. He was playing an aarakocra and I used the ability without much thought. He was the only one to fail his save by five or more, and I told him he aged 30 years. He stopped and just said, "Well, I'm dead." Because it was old age, he couldn't be brought back by normal resurrection spells, and he was playing an aarakocra, not a monk, so he didn't want to use Reincarnate.

[GreatWyrmGold]

i would also personally argue the archmage, *if played as an archmage* rather than as a person standing around in a dungeon room waiting to get attacked, has a very silly CR that does not accurately reflect how difficult it is to fight against one.
That's a First Tier Problem, not a CR problem.


So to summarize, sacks of HP are easier than the CR system says, creatures that cause negative Conditions are much harder than the CR system says.
What else is new?


Dragons have been nerfed to hell and back and are just glorified dinosaurs with wings now...they are just tons of hit points with a flying speed.
As you may have guessed from my name and/or avatar, I am greatly saddened by this.


As for being giant bags of hit points, without save-or-dies, everything is a bag of hit points.
I'm not sure if examples of such exist in 5e, but this is not the truth in general. Oh, it's the most common type of enemy, but that hardly means other kinds are impossible! Take, for instance, The Cackling Prince (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20332977&postcount=43)—who technically can be fought as a bag-of-hit-points, but that's a bad way to go about it. Bonus, it avoids either being save-or-die or only hurting characters via hit points.
Bags of hit points and various kinds of glass cannons are the easiest foes to run, but they aren't the only game in town.

[Pex]

I have a tangent question since I haven't purchased the Monster Manual. I just need to know if this is a thing in 5E not the specifics of a particular creature. Do some monsters have an ability that recharge, i.e. they use their ability then roll a d6 and if roll at least a certain number they can use the ability again in that combat? I know that was a 4E thing, but I am curious if 5E adopted it.

[Cyan Wisp]

I have a tangent question since I haven't purchased the Monster Manual. I just need to know if this is a thing in 5E not the specifics of a particular creature. Do some monsters have an ability that recharge, i.e. they use their ability then roll a d6 and if roll at least a certain number they can use the ability again in that combat? I know that was a 4E thing, but I am curious if 5E adopted it.

Why, yes, they do. Most seem to be breath weapon kind of attacks.

Some examples:

Ankheg acid spray (recharge 6)
Behir lightning breath (recharge 5-6)
Chimera fire breath (recharge 5-6)
Demilich howl (recharge 5-6)
Dragon breath - any type (recharge 5-6)

[Pex]

Ok, thanks.

[Inevitability]

Ive seen banshees do horrific things to unprepared and unlucky groups.

This. I once put four level 10 characters against three banshees (a medium encounter). All banshees open with their wail, which drops three out of four party members. The remaining member manages to survive (and even punches a banshee through a wall), but it was tense.

[Knaight]

Dragons have been nerfed to hell and back and are just glorified dinosaurs with wings now. The variants make them slightly more dangerous, with the Red and Gold dragons getting a significant power increase from them, but otherwise they are just tons of hit points with a flying speed. Their damage is absolute crap for their CR, even the Ancient Red and Gold only barely exceed 50 damage per round! By the time you're supposed to be fighting them (around level 15 or 16) even a WIZARD could take them for a whole round! (assuming the wizard is using the standard array and puts the 14 into Con and they use the average value of the dice rounded up, a level 16 wizard has about 98 HP, enough to survive the entire multiattack). And you're telling me they're challenge rating 24?

The CR is a bit high, but I'm all for the heavy nerfing. Glorified dinosaurs with wings (and a breath weapon) sounds more like the standard dragon to me than the highly intelligent spell casters that D&D dragons used to be. It's just a shame that they aren't Int 6 or so.

[Quintessence]

The CR is a bit high, but I'm all for the heavy nerfing. Glorified dinosaurs with wings (and a breath weapon) sounds more like the standard dragon to me than the highly intelligent spell casters that D&D dragons used to be. It's just a shame that they aren't Int 6 or so.

Oh but don't they still have wonderful casting..?

[hymer]

I once put four level 10 characters against three banshees (a medium encounter). All banshees open with their wail, which drops three out of four party members.

Something quite similar goes for harpies, who are much lower CR.

[Inevitability]

Something quite similar goes for harpies, who are much lower CR.

At least the effects of a harpy's song fade after the encounter. A creature dropped by a banshee is still at 0 HP after the fight.

[NewDM]

I have a tangent question since I haven't purchased the Monster Manual. I just need to know if this is a thing in 5E not the specifics of a particular creature. Do some monsters have an ability that recharge, i.e. they use their ability then roll a d6 and if roll at least a certain number they can use the ability again in that combat? I know that was a 4E thing, but I am curious if 5E adopted it.

To be fair they've done this since 2e. Well it was slightly different. The breath weapon would be re-usable after 1d4 rounds. On average that's about 3 rounds rounded up. With a recharge 5-6 trait, its about the dame odds.

[SharkForce]

Oh but don't they still have wonderful casting..?

no. there's a variant that allows for some dragons to have a handful of spells they can use once per day, but that's about it.

[MaxWilson]

Oh but don't they still have wonderful casting..?

The MM has a variant listed in which all dragons get IIRC their Cha mod in spells of 1/3 their CR or lower per day. So a CR 24, Cha 29 Ancient Gold Dragon would have 9 spells of 8th level or less per day, if I'm remembering the rule right. It's an awkward variant because it means that low-level spells like Shield are just as costly as high-level spells like Forcecage.

I prefer to just outright give my dragons levels in Dragon Sorcerer, which is fully thematic. Even at low levels (e.g. Dragon Sorcerer 5 on an adult white dragon chassis) a handful of Shield Spells plus one or more of Darkness, Misty Step or Invisibility, Blink, and Quickened Hold Person III will radically transform the threat profile of a dragon from "flying sack of HP" to "extremely scary hit-and-run monster".

In fact, just put a single level of Dragon Sorcerer on a Young White Dragon and have him cast Fog Cloud and then exploit it, and then watch how much scarier he is to the players. (They get no opportunity attacks against a target they can't see, while it gets advantage to attack anyone who isn't Alert and they have disadvantage to attack it back; PCs can't try to Hide within the Fog Cloud because it has blindsight 30' to cover the whole cloud; it can if it chooses Hide within the Fog Cloud waiting for its breath weapon to recharge; etc.) If they are moderately high level they should still win that confrontation but it will be far more memorable than a vanilla Young White Dragon; and perhaps the dragon will even survive the conflict to plot its revenge some day.

The mark of a non-boring encounter IMO is that the players have to make good decisions instead of just relying on good attack rolls. Adding some spellcasting and patience to dragons makes them a lot less boring.

[NewDM]

The MM has a variant listed in which all dragons get IIRC their Cha mod in spells of 1/3 their CR or lower per day. So a CR 24, Cha 29 Ancient Gold Dragon would have 9 spells of 8th level or less per day, if I'm remembering the rule right. It's an awkward variant because it means that low-level spells like Shield are just as costly as high-level spells like Forcecage.

I prefer to just outright give my dragons levels in Dragon Sorcerer, which is fully thematic. Even at low levels (e.g. Dragon Sorcerer 5 on an adult white dragon chassis) a handful of Shield Spells plus one or more of Darkness, Misty Step or Invisibility, Blink, and Quickened Hold Person III will radically transform the threat profile of a dragon from "flying sack of HP" to "extremely scary hit-and-run monster".

In fact, just put a single level of Dragon Sorcerer on a Young White Dragon and have him cast Fog Cloud and then exploit it, and then watch how much scarier he is to the players. (They get no opportunity attacks against a target they can't see, while it gets advantage to attack anyone who isn't Alert and they have disadvantage to attack it back; PCs can't try to Hide within the Fog Cloud because it has blindsight 30' to cover the whole cloud; it can if it chooses Hide within the Fog Cloud waiting for its breath weapon to recharge; etc.) If they are moderately high level they should still win that confrontation but it will be far more memorable than a vanilla Young White Dragon; and perhaps the dragon will even survive the conflict to plot its revenge some day.

The mark of a non-boring encounter IMO is that the players have to make good decisions instead of just relying on good attack rolls. Adding some spellcasting and patience to dragons makes them a lot less boring.

Where's the rule about not getting opportunity attacks against creatures you can't see?

[MaxWilson]

Where's the rule about not getting opportunity attacks against creatures you can't see?

In the rules for opportunity attacks. For example, in the SRD it's page 95.


Opportunity Attacks
In a fight, everyone is constantly watching for a
chance to strike an enemy who is fleeing or passing
by. Such a strike is called an opportunity attack.
You can make an opportunity attack when a
hostile creature that you can see moves out of your
reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your
reaction to make one melee attack against the
provoking creature. The attack occurs right before
the creature leaves your reach.
You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by
taking the Disengage action. You also don’t provoke
an opportunity attack when you teleport or when
someone or something moves you without using
your movement, action, or reaction. For example,
you don’t provoke an opportunity attack if an
explosion hurls you out of a foe’s reach or if gravity
causes you to fall past an enemy...

Emphasis added.

[rhouck]

To be fair they've done this since 2e. Well it was slightly different. The breath weapon would be re-usable after 1d4 rounds. On average that's about 3 rounds rounded up. With a recharge 5-6 trait, its about the dame odds.

2e was actually a fixed "once every three rounds". I actually think that was better from a balance/consistency perspective, because a few unlucky rolls on the d6 can mean that the dragon is using its breath weapon round after round after round... Obviously the latter can happen too (i.e., using it once and never rolling the recharge again), but given the damage/effects of a BW, that's the kind of swinginess that makes balancing encounters/calculating CR difficult.

[Dr. Cliché]

2e was actually a fixed "once every three rounds". I actually think that was better from a balance/consistency perspective, because a few unlucky rolls on the d6 can mean that the dragon is using its breath weapon round after round after round... Obviously the latter can happen too (i.e., using it once and never rolling the recharge again), but given the damage/effects of a BW, that's the kind of swinginess that makes balancing encounters/calculating CR difficult.

I thought 2e was '3 times per day'? So that a dragon could, if it wanted, breathe 3 times in a row.

[NewDM]

In the rules for opportunity attacks. For example, in the SRD it's page 95.



Emphasis added.

Wow. Well that combat I had with my Greater Invisible Blade Singer would have went a whole different way if I had known that.


I thought 2e was '3 times per day'? So that a dragon could, if it wanted, breathe 3 times in a row.

Nope, just looked it up. Its once every 3 rounds. Must be 3.x where it recovers in 1d4 rounds. But dragons in 2e fly partially because of magic. So when people bring up the argument that dragons couldn't fly in the real world, the proper response is 'their innate magic allows them to fly'.

[Firechanter]

Hm, weird. In _my_ 2E Monstrous Manual, the Dragon (only looked up Red as an example) can use its breath weapon "3 times per day".
Maybe different editions / printings / whatever.

[Dr. Cliché]

Nope, just looked it up. Its once every 3 rounds.

Huh, I could have sworn 2e was 3/day.

Regardless, I agree with rhouck in that I also prefer dragons breathing once every 3 rounds to recovering their breath weapons randomly.

[NewDM]

Hm, weird. In _my_ 2E Monstrous Manual, the Dragon (only looked up Red as an example) can use its breath weapon "3 times per day".
Maybe different editions / printings / whatever.

I'm reading the 'all dragons' section where it talks about all dragons having about 10 different kinds of attacks. Its possible specific dragons explain their breath weapons differently.


Huh, I could have sworn 2e was 3/day.

Regardless, I agree with rhouck in that I also prefer dragons breathing once every 3 rounds to recovering their breath weapons randomly.

I do to. It makes much more sense that the fluids and magical energy needed would recover at a set rate.

[JumboWheat01]

Magic, maybe, but fluid and gasses are biological, and definitely not on a fixed schedule. You don't belch the same time every day, do you? Or the same exact span of time after you drink a carbonated beverage? It varies somewhat. I imagine Breath Weapons, as per their name, include a biological aspect mixed with magical. Well, definitely mixed with magical (breathing lightning can NOT be natural in any way, shape or form, though poison might be, hehehe.)

[MaxWilson]

2e was actually a fixed "once every three rounds". I actually think that was better from a balance/consistency perspective, because a few unlucky rolls on the d6 can mean that the dragon is using its breath weapon round after round after round... Obviously the latter can happen too (i.e., using it once and never rolling the recharge again), but given the damage/effects of a BW, that's the kind of swinginess that makes balancing encounters/calculating CR difficult.

Confirmed, my MM also says once every three rounds on page 64, bottom left.

[rhouck]

Hm, weird. In _my_ 2E Monstrous Manual, the Dragon (only looked up Red as an example) can use its breath weapon "3 times per day".
Maybe different editions / printings / whatever.

That's interesting, I know 3x/day was a 1e rule (but no limitation on them using it 3 rounds in a row, iirc -- they also did damage equal to the dragon's current hit points, which would make for a pretty gnarly opening salvo!), but don't remember it appearing in 2e. Which edition do you have? I know there was a white cover, black cover, and green cover -- I wonder if they added that into a later printing.

IMO the best combo is once every 3 rounds AND no more than 3 times per day. That tends to fit more with the classic narrative of a dragon flying in, breathing on a town a few times, then heading home. It also means they can't just do unending breath weapon flybys on a party over and over again.

[Firechanter]

Oooooh, I'm sorry, I had misread the entry. I had slipped lines to the part - directly after the breath weapon - where it says dragons gain additional powers by age category, like "heat metal 3/day".

In fact, in the general information section, it indeed says:
all dragons have a claw/claw/bite attack form and a breath weapon. The latter can be used once every three rounds.

Sorry for the confusion!