Spiked Chain Broken?

[Citizen Joe]

OK here's the threatened area with a Enlarge Person on a Man with a spiked chain.
:smallfurious: = threatened square
:smalleek: = enlarged person
{table="head"] // | AA | BB | CC | DD | EE | FF | GG | HH | II | JJ
01 |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
02 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
03 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
04 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
05 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smalleek: |:smalleek: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
06 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smalleek: |:smalleek: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
07 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
08 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
09 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
10 |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
[/table]

This would take a potion and an exotic weapon proficiency. Add in a decent strength and great cleave and it could be absolutely stunning... to the point of breaking.

Here's my suggestion for a fix. Chain needs to be readied between attacks. This takes a move action (or free action when combined with a normal move). However, multiattacks on the same target can be done without readying. So you could attack for damage, then add in a trip and a disarm, etc. if you had enough attacks. But you couldn't continue with a cleave because you need to ready it for other targets.

[Tengu]

You have the same effect with a guisarme + spiked armor or gauntlets, but without wasting a feat. Battlefield control like this is what fighters do - no need to nerf them.

[ZeroNumerous]

The Spiked Chain is the only thing Fighters even have going for them. Why ruin it?

[Neon Knight]

That's not even as bad as it can get. Dancing Blade Form, an Iron Heart Stance, extends one's reach by 5ft. Of course, it only does so while you are attacking, so it doesn't extend your threatened area, but it still means that you can really reach out and touch someone.

[PlatinumJester]

Yeah but it only works with Enlarge Person.

[Fax Celestis]

Couple that with the third level of Knight and you're terrifying. Your threatened area is difficult terrain.

[ZeroNumerous]

Don't forget Stand Still to stop anyone trying to charge you.

But really.. Why the heck nerf Fighters?

EDIT: While I'm thinking on it.. Thicket of Blades forces 5-ft steps to provoke AoOs. Martial Study+Martial Stance.

[Fax Celestis]

Don't forget Stand Still to stop anyone trying to charge you.

You can't charge through difficult terrain anyway.

[lord_khaine]

he can hit people who are 10 feet away, so?
his number of AOO's is limited by his dex, something thats usualy not that high for a fighter.

[Citizen Joe]

he can hit people who are 10 feet away, so?
his number of AOO's is limited by his dex, something thats usualy not that high for a fighter.

Great Cleave, unlimited attacks... and he's hitting people 20 feet away 96 targets maximum...

[averagejoe]

Only if he manages to kill them all in one hit. So, yes, if your fighter comes up against 96 kobolds, he will have an easy time of it. Great cleave doesn't work as well against, say, a dragon.

[Yuki Akuma]

Great Cleave, unlimited attacks... and he's hitting people 20 feet away 96 targets maximum...

Are you going to say Fireball is broken now, too?

[Mr. Moogle]

I dont see the reason to nerf fighters, the strategy that your using is perfectly legit and I myself have used it before (It was a make-an-army campaign where you design diffrent types of units and roll initiative as a squad etc. , imagine a wall of fighters 20 feet apart with spining chains of death)

[lord_khaine]

Great Cleave, unlimited attacks... and he's hitting people 20 feet away 96 targets maximum...

not only assuming he actualy kills on every hit, he also have to actualy Hit the target.
even when he hits on anything but a natural 1, and can automaticaly kill anything he hits, then on average he wouldnt kill more than some 20 mobs, who are to weak to threaten him anyway.

oh and btw, you miscalculatet how many he can reach, he cant hit the top 5 mobs in each corner, so it would only be max 76 targets.

[Amiria]

he can hit people who are 10 feet away, so?
his number of AOO's is limited by his dex, something thats usualy not that high for a fighter.

Melee characters with reach weapons have typically more Dex than Con. And they can afford it since they aren't hit as often in melee. With the right buffs they usually have more reach than a large monster.

The Spiked Chain isn't broken. But my RL group, including me, really loathes this weapon.

[CrazedGoblin]

96 possible targets with great cleave. Nice :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

oh and btw, you miscalculatet how many he can reach, he cant hit the top 5 mobs in each corner, so it would only be max 76 targets.

No, he's calculating it right. Check the Q&A thread for details.

[Dervag]

You can't charge through difficult terrain anyway.Unless you buckle your swashes firmly.


The Spiked Chain isn't broken.Clearly not. If it were broken, it couldn't reach so far.

[Fax Celestis]

Unless you buckle your swashes firmly.

Okay, yes. There are ways to charge through difficult terrain, but still: most chargers don't take the class levels that allow them to do so.

[Citizen Joe]

Note Also that the nearer targets may give cover to the farther targets as per the discussion on the Q&A.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Also, don't you have to start threatened by the Knight for Bulwark of Defense to work? I could be remembering wrong, though.

Thicket of Blades has no such issue.

I can agree that the Spiked Chain is broken if and only if you ignore that fighters don't have anything else going for them. Maybe by comparison to other reach fighter options, but, since reach fighters aren't the only viable build. . .

[bigbaddragon]

You can't charge through difficult terrain anyway.

If that difficult terrain comes from bulwark of defense then you can charge through it if you didn't start your turn in knight's threatened area. Look at the description for bulwark of defense, it works only on those who start their turn in knight's threatened area.

[ZeroNumerous]

Thicket of Blades is, honestly, a better choice than Knight 3. Sure, you get 3d12 but you also get 3d12 from Warblade.

Besides.. A Fighter with a spiked chain? Honestly, who cares? It's still a Fighter. Defensive-cast Evard's Black Tentacles and he's screwed more than usual.

[tbarrie]

OK here's the threatened area with a Enlarge Person on a Man with a spiked chain.
:smallfurious: = threatened square
:smalleek: = enlarged person
{table="head"] // | AA | BB | CC | DD | EE | FF | GG | HH | II | JJ
01 |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
02 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
03 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
04 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
05 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smalleek: |:smalleek: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
06 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smalleek: |:smalleek: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
07 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
08 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
09 |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
10 |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious: |:smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: | :smallfurious: |:smallfurious:
[/table]


Your choice of icons seems backwards.

[Matthew]

Still no chance against a Dragon, poor old Fighter. Do note that you don't get the same effects with Spiked Gauntlets and a Reach Weapon, but you do get similar effects with Improved Unarmed Strike or Spiked Armour and a Reach Weapon. All the same, on seeing some enlarged guy whirling a Spiked Chain round his head, it is time for the hordes of Attackers to stand back and chuck those Daggers they have been carrying about... or call for some Archers and Tower Shields...

[tarbrush]

I really like the spiked chain mechanically. It's one of the few things that rewards a fighter for investing lots of feats. For your average class, you spend an EWP and get a reach weapon that hits people near you. Nice, but not excessive.

But, to use it to it's full potential, you have to get Improved Trip, Stand Still, Martial Study and maybe Weapon Finesse if you're a Dex based fighter. Then it becomes really useful because of all the fun things you can do with it. But's only really useful cos you've invested feats like they grow on trees, which they do for fighters, but not for other classes

[Wraithy]

Your choice of icons seems backwards.

now that kind of complaint is just rediculous... I wish I'd made it :smallbiggrin:
compared to what other classes can do, I think it is fair to keep this strategy, you'd need to wait a few levels before you can make it amazing, but balanced it is (grammer of mine not is)

[Droodle]

You have the same effect with a guisarme + spiked armor or gauntlets, but without wasting a feat. Battlefield control like this is what fighters do - no need to nerf them.Or save some money and just take the Shorten Grip feat from DR331. It lets you threaten adjacent squares at -2. Take the money you were going to spend enchanting your spikes and throw another enchantment on your Guisarme, instead.

[Indon]

I dont see the reason to nerf fighters, the strategy that your using is perfectly legit and I myself have used it before (It was a make-an-army campaign where you design diffrent types of units and roll initiative as a squad etc. , imagine a wall of fighters 20 feet apart with spining chains of death)

Hmm. I am interested by this concept.

[Corolinth]

Seeing as how that's contingent upon the fighter being enlarged, which requires either a potion or a friendly arcane spellcaster... It takes Combat Reflexes to really make this build tasty. Why not Cat's Grace your fighter buddy on the next round?

That kind of threatened radius opens up numerous options for a rogue as well.

As a DM, I tend to be a little more forgiving when it comes to "broken" combinations of abilities and feats that arise as a result of teamwork as opposed to a single player trying to powergame.

[Nebo_]

Thicket of Blades is, honestly, a better choice than Knight 3. Sure, you get 3d12 but you also get 3d12 from Warblade.

Warblades don't have access to Thicket of Blades.

[Neon Knight]

The Martial Stance and Martial Study feats allow any class to have access to any maneuver and or stance up to 5th level, provided he is of sufficient level (a non-martial adept class has an initiator level of 1/2 character levels) and has enough feats to burn. Martial adepts, of course, can get up to 9nth level maneuvers from any discipline. Not optimal, but possible.

[Jack Mann]

Not quite. A martial adept's class level only counts for half for disciplines his current class wouldn't give him. So, a swordsage4/warblade 2 has an IL of 5 for warblade maneuvers and an IL of 4 for swordsage maneuvers.

To get thicket of blades, the warblade has to be at least level ten.

[Neon Knight]

Whoop, missed that. Thanks for the correction.

[Roog]

I don't like spiked chains - but only for fluf reasons (the rules are OK).


imagine a wall of fighters 20 feet apart with spining chains of death)

There is no reason (by the rules) not to have a unit of these guys without the 20' gaps. Five seconds later you will have one horrible mess of tangled fighters and chain, waiting for someone to put them out of their misery.

Which is a good example why I don't like it. By its description it should be a poor weapon, at best. I can't bare to create a character who specializes in it, even if it would be their best weapon choice - maybe I should try persuading the GM to let me reflavour it for my character as a specialised fighting style with some polearm.

[Tor the Fallen]

A wizard gets fireball, which will hit every single square on that entire grid.

[Kioran]

I don't like spiked chains - but only for fluf reasons (the rules are OK).



There is no reason (by the rules) not to have a unit of these guys without the 20' gaps. Five seconds later you will have one horrible mess of tangled fighters and chain, waiting for someone to put them out of their misery.

Which is a good example why I don't like it. By its description it should be a crappy weapon, at best. I can't bare to create a character who specializes in it, even if it would be their best weapon choice - maybe I should try persuading the GM to let me reflavour it for my character as a specialised fighting style with some polearm.

Oh, a chain is a very powerful and versatile weapon, and since it can "store" kinetic energy, you can even hit hard with them. Problem is, they get useless if they´re not in spin and they chain has slack......so the suggestion with readying the weapon as a move action is quite allright - if you also:
a) increase bonus to Trip, Disarm and Damage
b) make the current crunch available to some other Weapon

Otherwise you hurt the Fighter too much. It should be noted that this weapon is not very useful in a fight with several participants IRL - and that´s what´s irking me a little, with fluff and crunch being so disparate. However, anything that alleviates the monotony of Greatswords is good in my books........

[Roog]

Oh, a chain is a very powerful and versatile weapon, and since it can "store" kinetic energy, you can even hit hard with them. Problem is, they get useless if they´re not in spin and they chain has slack......

My description of it, was based based on the assumption that unless you take them out with the shot you might get as they approach (the AoO) then you have lost that kinetic energy. And in D&D if you are fighting guys you can take out reliably with one shot, then you are probably fighting too many at once for the chain to be much use.

[I_Got_This_Name]

Not quite. A martial adept's class level only counts for half for disciplines his current class wouldn't give him. So, a swordsage4/warblade 2 has an IL of 5 for warblade maneuvers and an IL of 4 for swordsage maneuvers.

To get thicket of blades, the warblade has to be at least level ten.

If you have levels in a Martial Adept class, it works differently; you just know the maneuver as your existing class. The feat says nothing about how it interacts with initiator level.

Also, you have your ILs backward. The multiclass character you have has an IL of 4 for Warblade maneuvers (2 class + 2 for half Swordsage) and 5 Swordsage (4 class + 1 for half Warblade). Some maneuvers are known as Warblade maneuvers, others Swordsage; they can only be known one way, and readied (and recovered) the way they're known, or something like that. The multiclassing ToB class rules are wacky.

[Jack Mann]

Er, yes. I'd meant to write warblade 4/swordsage 2.

The feat says that you have to meet all prerequisites for learning the maneuver, which includes initiator level. Ask Wizards clarified that your levels in one martial adept class only count for half of another martial adept class, just as a non-martial adept class would.

Since a crusader needs to be level 5 to learn a maneuver, a pure-classed warblade would need to be at least level 10, for a crusader IL of 10.

[Yuki Akuma]

...So you have to be twice the level to learn the maneuver, but once you know it you use it at your normal Initiator Level.

Makes sense to me.

So, A Warblade or Swordsage needs to be at least level 10 (and, more acurately, has to be level 12) in order to learn Thicket of Blades; his Initiator Level for learning the maneuver is half his actual level.

But, once he learns Thicket of Blades, he uses it as a Warblade or Swordsage maneuver, including using his higher Initiator Level of 10 (12).

[Callix]

What DM puts a fighter in a situation where he is up against 96 opponents? Without Combat Reflexes at least this build is no problem. Improved Trip is another necessity. And unless you are entering the Infinite Kobolds Survival Challenge, that many threatened squares is pretty meaningless against a dragon/balor/equal level wizard.
Also see Roy's Guide to Anti-Chaining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

[fallensavior]

I cannot believe that no one has mentioned whirlwind attack with this build. Sure its hard to get, but hitting all 76 threatened squares every round without great cleave is what makes this build.

[ZeroNumerous]

Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10

1: EWP(Spiked Chain)
3: Weapon Focus(Spiked Chain)
5: Combat Expertise
6: Improved Trip
9: Combat Reflexes
9: Martial Study: [Whatever Devoted Spirit Maneuver you like. Crusader's Strike maybe]
12: Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades.
15: Cleave
18: Great Cleave

This sample, thrown together character doesn't have the feats needed fore Whirlwind Attack. If it was pure fighter, it might have enough but then it'd really be useless in any real sense.

Maneuvers to look at: Either of the Mongooses and Maybe nab Fountain of Blood if you pick up the two Cleaves at the end. If not, drop the Cleaves and pick up Stand Still and a free feat.

At a glance strategy: Raging Mongoose + Island in Time. With great cleave and assuming you're completely surrounded, then everything around you dies.

Thats 20/20/20/15/10/5 followed by 20/15/10/5.

[NEO|Phyte]

I cannot believe that no one has mentioned whirlwind attack with this build. Sure its hard to get, but hitting all 76 threatened squares every round without great cleave is what makes this build.
At which point you can throw in 5 levels of War Mind and make each of those attacks affect 2 squares equally!

[Damionte]

As a DM, I tend to be a little more forgiving when it comes to "broken" combinations of abilities and feats that arise as a result of teamwork as opposed to a single player trying to powergame.

So do I. I see nothing broken with this particular combination. even for a Psychic Warrior who "can" do this combination by himself. I see this as one of the few warrior combinations that actually works as intended.

[Jack_Simth]

Granted, the flavor's not really up to snuff, but mechanically the weapon's fine.

A spiked chain is a two-handed exotic weapon at 2d4x2, trip, +2 disarm, hit close and reach weapon.

A Ranseur is a two-handed martial weapon at 2d4x3, +2 disarm, reach weapon.

For the cost of a feat, you lose: 1 point of critical multiplier, and gain hit close, trip. Basically, the Spiked Chain is one step down and two steps up from a Ranseur... but a Ranseur is martial, where a Spiked Chain is Exotic, and requires an extra feat. Mechanically, it's a fair trade.

Now, if the fluff said it was a polearm with a shorter blade on the "back" that you could use for close-up fighting, it wouldn't be so bad (although you might have to re-work it as a double weapon). If the fluff said it was a polearm with an extra blade in the middle, it wouldn't be so bad. As-is, it's difficult to imagine the thing in actual use with D&D mechanics ... but that's its only problem - the fluff. The crunch is fine. It's not a "broken" weapon at all.

Now, wooden swords - those are bokken.

[martyboy74]

Also see Roy's Guide to Anti-Chaining (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Although I agree with the rest of your post, see Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill).

[Kizara]

Ok, seriously, where are you guys getting half of this?

Thicket of blades?
Stand Still?
Martial Study?
Knight? (for such a un-assuming name, I've never even HEARD of this class)
Eternal Blade?

The sad thing is, 3.0 I had all my powergaming stuff memorized, now I don't even know what people are talking about...

Is this from some third-party splat or something?

I'm I the only one that just uses completes + core, because most of the other crap out there is broken? *cough phb2 cough*

[MeklorIlavator]

Ok, seriously, where are you guys getting half of this?

Thicket of blades?
Stand Still?
Martial Study?
Knight? (for such a un-assuming name, I've never even HEARD of this class)
Eternal Blade?

The sad thing is, 3.0 I had all my powergaming stuff memorized, now I don't even know what people are talking about...

Is this from some third-party splat or something?

I'm I the only one that just uses completes + core, because most of the other crap out there is broken? *cough phb2 cough*

Thicket of blades, Martial Study, and Eternal Blade are from the Tome of Battle: Book of nine swords(usually abreviated to ToB). Its considered one of the best non-core books in print.

Stand still is in the SRD under the Psionic section(though it itself is not a psionic feat).

The knight is from the PHB2, and is far from broken.

Actually, the Core(Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Polymorph, Alter Self, Shapechage, 9th level spells, Full casters in gerenal) itself is considered one of the least balanced books printed, with several items from the Complete Arcane(Initiate of the Sevenfold Viel) and Divine(Divine Metamagic) also deserving of that honor.

[NEO|Phyte]

Thicket of blades?
Stand Still?
Martial Study?
Knight? (for such a un-assuming name, I've never even HEARD of this class)
Eternal Blade?
Tome of Battle, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Tome of Battle, PHB2, Tome of Battle

:edit: aand simu'd

[sleeping fishy]

Ok, seriously, where are you guys getting half of this?

Thicket of blades?
Stand Still?
Martial Study?
Eternal Blade?

all from the tome of battle book of 9 swords book, which is freaking sweet.


Knight? (for such a un-assuming name, I've never even HEARD of this class)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2


The sad thing is, 3.0 I had all my powergaming stuff memorized, now I don't even know what people are talking about...

Is this from some third-party splat or something?

I'm I the only one that just uses completes + core, because most of the other crap out there is broken? *cough phb2 cough*
ummmm, wtf??? completes have DIVINE METAMAGIC for example... initiate of the 7 veils... frenzied berserker... urpriest... persistent spell... divine metamagic AND persistent spell... and core has far more broken crap than phb 2! all the phb 2 has is like celerity, which is totally broken but thats like it... compare to gate and shapechange and polymorph and time stop and stuff...

core & completes arent even close to balanced... phb2 is one of the best balanced books.

[herrhauptmann]

I've got a fighter/rog who uses the spiked chain mentioned at the top of the thread.
Exotic Weap chain, combat reflex, weap finesse, and I chose improved disarm.
All our enemies were clerics for the first 3 fights, nothing to disarm. I next invested in improved trip. Suddenly, the clerics started traveling with 15ft tall flesh golems with augmented str.

Oh, and does this seem odd to you guys, average party level is an ECL 7, we got 6 members (most are dumb). All the fights have had 1 big guy, with 2-4 'smaller' guys with him. The big guy, has been a 12-14 level cleric each time. And the DM says, the kid gloves are about to come off.

The clerics only attack with harm and inflict spells, and even our wizards and priests need a 20 on their will saves.

Anyway, I don't plan to continue with this group, though I might rebuild the character, and use him in another campaign. I want to combine whirlwind attack with improved trip. (The original goal, then follow the trips up next round with a disarm. As it is, all I can do is threaten the evil cleric and make her cast defensively. Her stats and bonuses are so high, I usually need a 19 or 20 to hit.)

:edit: I forgot to read the second page of posts...

[talse]

This might not be the right place, but i'm wondering, is it legit for a druid to use shape wood to make spiked chains out of wood, then cast iron wood on them, then have another character permanent them, and in battle cast spikes on them giving them +2 damage per caster level of druid and doubled threat range?

[TSGames]

I don't like spiked chains - but only for fluf reasons (the rules are OK).



There is no reason (by the rules) not to have a unit of these guys without the 20' gaps. Five seconds later you will have one horrible mess of tangled fighters and chain, waiting for someone to put them out of their misery.

Which is a good example why I don't like it. By its description it should be a poor weapon, at best. I can't bare to create a character who specializes in it, even if it would be their best weapon choice - maybe I should try persuading the GM to let me reflavour it for my character as a specialised fighting style with some polearm.

Clearly, spiked chains don't obey the laws of physics.

[Kizara]

First off, I'd like to thank those that responded to my bewildered post. Glad I'm not crazy, just not as well-read it seems.

Obviously I have different experiences as others, and that's fine.

Personally, I like my 9th-level spells to be exactly what they are meant to be: the epitome of pre-epic magic and the whole reason you took those last 16 levels in wizard. Although I'll agree on Gate and Shapechange.

My group has no desire to abuse Persistant Spell and its never been an issue, nor has any metamagic really. (and I've played alot of wizards and clerics and I'm pretty good at knowing my spells and such). On the other hand, I have no desire to touch psionics beyond the MM abilities and I found enough in the phb2 that completely disgusted me that I banned the whole thing. But this thread is not about such matters, and I do not wish to derail it. I would however, be more then prepared to defend my thoughts and views in another, more appropriate, thread should the occasion arise.

Btw, I have always thought the spiked chain was one of the better exotic weapons and allowed for some very interesting builds, but was not, in and of itself, broken. I think its a good example of what a 'strong' exotic weapon is though, for reference purposes.

[Dausuul]

Er, yes. I'd meant to write warblade 4/swordsage 2.

The feat says that you have to meet all prerequisites for learning the maneuver, which includes initiator level. Ask Wizards clarified that your levels in one martial adept class only count for half of another martial adept class, just as a non-martial adept class would.

True, but where do you get that your initiator level is halved for disciplines not normally granted to your class? There's no such thing as a "crusader maneuver" or a "swordsage maneuver." Maneuvers have disciplines, not classes.

If you're a warblade, maneuvers you learn with Martial Study are treated as warblade maneuvers. They use the same recovery method and count against your limit of maneuvers readied. I see no reason your warblade initiator level wouldn't count for the prereqs as well.

[Keld Denar]

Clearly, spiked chains don't obey the laws of physics.

[meow]
SPLAT!!!

Anyway, I join the camp that says mechanically, spiked chains are not broken. On top of everything already posted, I'd like to add that a spiked chain is the easiest 2handed weapon to sunder. At only 5 hardness 5 hp, a level 2 NPC 1bbn/1ftr could sunder it about 5/6 tries. Without power attacking. Plus, if you've just spent 5 feats to get to ww attack, you've just wasted 4 feats (expertese is good, and a vital prereq, the rest are bad)

I currently have a spiked chain fighter in the LG campaign. The thing that I most often use the reach for is to not get AoOed when fighting large creatures. That versitility is what I pay the feat for, not all the other stuff. I swear I only get to trip things about once every 3-6 combats because things in LG tend to be large+. It's also good for taking advantage of the feat close quarters fighting vs large things with imp grab, because if you don't have reach, you don't get the CCF AoO. The character is level 11 now, and I can still probably count on both hands the number of times he's been enlarged. The primary casters are usually doing other things at the moment, like winning the combat with Glitterdust/Evards/Solid Fog, etc.

All that said, another fun thing to do with the spiked chain is to grab 1 level in Exotic Weapon Master (CW). The flurry of strikes trick is really good. Given the option to PA for an extra 4 damage per hit, or get an extra hit for 2d4 +10 plus all the other buffs is just fun.

[Stephen_E]

I currently have a spiked chain fighter in the LG campaign. The thing that I most often use the reach for is to not get AoOed when fighting large creatures. That versitility is what I pay the feat for, not all the other stuff. I swear I only get to trip things about once every 3-6 combats because things in LG tend to be large+. It's also good for taking advantage of the feat close quarters fighting vs large things with imp grab, because if you don't have reach, you don't get the CCF AoO. The character is level 11 now, and I can still probably count on both hands the number of times he's been enlarged. The primary casters are usually doing other things at the moment, like winning the combat with Glitterdust/Evards/Solid Fog, etc.


If you get high enough level to afford the middle level Ring of Spell storing, purchase it and get your Cleric to cast Righteous Might on it. Then when it come to combat, as a standard action you can cast Righteous Might on yourself. Much better than piddling Enlarge Person.

Stephen

[Mike_G]

The thing is, you usually fight lots of enemies, particularly Cleavable enemies at low level. Mobs of goblins or what have you would be great to fight with this build.

By 20th level, you are seldom if ever going to get those multiple attacks.

A 5th level build that let you threaten that much area would be great. At 20th level, it's kinda like taking a five shot magazine rifle to Iraq. It was a great weapon when everybody had a muzzle loader, but now that everybody has an assault rifle, it's not all that impressive.