Questions regarding various combat approaches for a martial charcter

[Kol Korran]

So, I may soon have a chance to play a character, which I haven't done in a long time... (I mostly GMed).

The game will be in Eberron, and will mostly feature in Sharn (Urban environment, possibly wit hruins/ dungeons in it. The city has many towers, and enhanced flying with in it. In short- Height and flies may play a role here as well). The character will be a hobgoblin fighter (Tactician Archetype) and will start at 1st level, and may go up till 11th.

Attributes uses 20 PB, and will probably be: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 14. (I might changed to Int 10, Wis 14, depending on theneed of int for skills and feats). The character is focused both on melee and social skills (Mostly Diplomacy and intimidate). The hobgolin will also take the Authoritative racial alterntae feature (Removing the +5 for stealth, and adding a +2 to diplomacy and intimidate).

Some major relevant house rules:
0- Only Paizo content. No 3rd party.
1- Alignment not in use.
2- Weapon Finesse - Removed. Instead, Finesse is now a weapon property (like Brace) which is applied to all weapons that you would normally be able to use with the Weapon Finesse feat. Change any instance of Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite for another feat or PrC to Dexterity 13 instead.
3- Agile Maneuvers - Removed. Whenever you wield a weapon with the Finesse property, you add your Dexterity to your CMB. Otherwise, use Strength like normal.
4- Deadly Aim, Combat Expertise, and Power Attack - Removed. These are now combat options freely available to all.
5- Dodge and Mobility - These two feats have been merged into a single feat called Dodge and Mobility. Prerequisites that once required either Dodge or Mobility now only require this feat.
6- Quick Draw: Removed. Instead, all characters act as though they have quickdraw if they meet the following prerequisites.
- Light weapons - Proficiency with weapon
- One-handed weapons - +1 BAB and proficiency with weapon
- Two-handed weapons - +3 BAB and proficiency with weapon
7- Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting - Combined into a single feat. However, in order to make your first, second, or third off-hand attack, you must still meet the prerequesites you would normally need to meet for the feat that provides that attack (I.E. you would need to meet the prereqs for Imp. Two-Wpn Fighting before you could make a second off-hand attack for example).
8- We'll be using hero points to represent the flavor of 3.5 Eberron action points, but fully using PF hero points rules.
- No Path of War or similar

Main ideas for possible combat techniques and build
I'd like to keep the feel of an experienced hobgoblin war band leader. As such I'd love to incorporate most of the following:
1. Possibly using social skills for combat (Demoralize?) I might have a trait (Demoralzing presence) and perhaps add the Persuasive feat to make the modifier quite large.
- But is it an effective strategy?
- Is there anyway to improve it's effectiveness? Not just shaken, but greater effects? Multiple opponents?
- Can I get the action needed to move or swift?
- I found the hobgoblin feat demoralizing lash, which works well with whips and flail group weapons. Is it worth taking?
2. I'd like to have a few "smart combatant" themed options, not just a damage dealer. This seems to me mostly like maneuvers. I was thinking taking Improved Trip, perhaps Improved Disarm, and use those with flail group weapons, possibly whips well?
3. I am wondering between the following options as to choice of weapon use:
- Two handed weapon: Heavy flail comes to mind. Mostly for damage use? But more limited, and no shield.
- Two weapons fighting: I like the idea of using two weapons, one possibly for damage mostly, another for maneuvers (Had the idea of using a whip in one weapon for control while fighting with the other hand). The automatic feats listed above make this more viable, but how good is it?
- Shield use?- fits more with the fighter concept idea. It also adds the potential of charming the shield for greater protection. I would like to keep the hand free for stuff, so that means light shield (If I want to use spikes) or Buckler. (For two weapon fighting, or to pull out a ranged weapon quickly) However, I haven't found any feat/ ability that enables using the shield AC bonus while also attacking with that hand. Is there such an option?
- If using two weapons, I loved the idea of the whip- fits goblinoids well, and has great uses. However... A whip is a one handed exotic weapon (Which incurs bigger penalties with two weapon fighting), and though I can take the razor whip instead, using the whip for trip/ disarm requires taking it as a weapon proficiency. I'm quite confused on how to do this without way too much feats into that.

About Two Weapon Fighting: Suppose I have a finnesable weapon in one hand, and a non finessable in the other (Say a long sword and short sword for simplicity):
- The "to hit" bonus- do I use dex for the finnesble, and str for the non-finessable?
- Do I use strength bonus for both?
- Can Power attack be used with finnesable weapons? I see nothing against it in the rules, but it seems counter intuitive to me...

Any help with feat progression and combat ideas will be appreciated... Got very little experience with this...

[Psyren]

General question: How does your DM feel about Combat Stamina? (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/gameplay/combatTactics.html#) Given that it's first-party especially. It'll make a lot of the other stuff I describe better/easier.



1. Possibly using social skills for combat (Demoralize?) I might have a trait (Demoralzing presence) and perhaps add the Persuasive feat to make the modifier quite large.
- But is it an effective strategy?
- Is there anyway to improve it's effectiveness? Not just shaken, but greater effects? Multiple opponents?
- Can I get the action needed to move or swift?
- I found the hobgoblin feat demoralizing lash, which works well with whips and flail group weapons. Is it worth taking?

If you want to intimidate a bunch of folks, consider Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat), and look into Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) also. Not quite as good for you as someone with sneak attack, but still good. I think you'll need stamina or possibly items to speed it up though.



2. I'd like to have a few "smart combatant" themed options, not just a damage dealer. This seems to me mostly like maneuvers. I was thinking taking Improved Trip, perhaps Improved Disarm, and use those with flail group weapons, possibly whips well?
3. I am wondering between the following options as to choice of weapon use:
- Two handed weapon: Heavy flail comes to mind. Mostly for damage use? But more limited, and no shield.
- Two weapons fighting: I like the idea of using two weapons, one possibly for damage mostly, another for maneuvers (Had the idea of using a whip in one weapon for control while fighting with the other hand). The automatic feats listed above make this more viable, but how good is it?

All of these can be viable so it's really up to which one you prefer and we can go from there.



- Shield use?- fits more with the fighter concept idea. It also adds the potential of charming the shield for greater protection. I would like to keep the hand free for stuff, so that means light shield (If I want to use spikes) or Buckler. (For two weapon fighting, or to pull out a ranged weapon quickly) However, I haven't found any feat/ ability that enables using the shield AC bonus while also attacking with that hand. Is there such an option?

You're looking for Improved Shield Bash. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-shield-bash-combat---final) Note that you can't bash with a buckler normally.



- If using two weapons, I loved the idea of the whip- fits goblinoids well, and has great uses. However... A whip is a one handed exotic weapon (Which incurs bigger penalties with two weapon fighting), and though I can take the razor whip instead, using the whip for trip/ disarm requires taking it as a weapon proficiency. I'm quite confused on how to do this without way too much feats into that.

About Two Weapon Fighting: Suppose I have a finnesable weapon in one hand, and a non finessable in the other (Say a long sword and short sword for simplicity):
- The "to hit" bonus- do I use dex for the finnesble, and str for the non-finessable?
- Do I use strength bonus for both?
- Can Power attack be used with finnesable weapons? I see nothing against it in the rules, but it seems counter intuitive to me...

1) Hobgoblins have an alternate racial called "Pit Boss" that will give you free whip proficiency. But you'll still need another feat (Whip Mastery) to do lethal damage with it, or EWP: Scorpion Whip to give you a damaging alternative. Either way, holding it in your main-hand with a light weapon in your offhand won't incur any more penalties than using two light weapons would have.

2) "Finessable" weapons are Light weapons in the normal RAW. Not sure if your houserules change that, but as written, you would get to use Dex with the light weapons and be forced to use Str with any that weren't.

3) You can PA just fine with a light weapon, but doing so doesn't give you the 50% bonus even if you wield it in both hands. So you'll get +2 damage for every -1 attack, instead of +3. If you're planning to TWF, I recommend Piranha Strike instead.

[Captain Morgan]

A few things. Why do you specifically want to be a fighter? The main advantage they get is lots of feats, but your house rules soak up so much of that already. The one thing Fighters really have beyond feats now is Advanced Weapon and Armor Training... But I don't know what relevant options might exist for you there.

Your stat array could use work. CON at 12 is risky if you are the primary front liner. Your CHA is awfully high on a class which doesn't actually benefit much from it.

Finally, a fighter us always going to struggle to stay relevant in the skills game. If you keep your diplomacy and intimidate maxed you have 1 skill point left for everything else. Advanced Weapon Training and Favored Class Bonuses can help, but it's still an uphill battle.

So my suggestion would be to consider playing a different class, one with more skill points and CHA synergy. Options include:

Daring Champion Cavalier. You get CHA synergy, tactician, and deeds for combat options. Challenge and precise strike let's you do insane damage, too. I imagine if there's any way to TWF with that you will just murder everything.

Slayer: not CHA synergy, but studied target grants bonuses, and I bet you could really capitalize on these free fests. Plus a good reflex save and more skills.

Holy Tactician Paladin: you can share your teamwork feat all day, have more reason to have high charisma, and get the spells, combat prowess, and sheer durability of a Paladin. Your smite is weaker but it becomes another group buff.

Inquisitor: Inquisitors can potentially use WIS for their social skills, either instead of CHA or in addition to CHA. They also get great bonuses to intimate and sense motive. And spells like Honeyed Tongue and Blistering Invective to help even more, and even a second level spell which shares teamwork feats.

[Geddy2112]

If you want to have an approach for every combat, you want to have a ranged option for things that are flying around, and things you don't want to touch.

With your build, there is no reason not to have a compound bow as a just in case option.

Most of the time sword and board is a subpar build, unless you are specifically going the shield bash build. You are much better 2 handing or 2 weapon fighting. You can still have a buckler if you go this route, but you won't get much use from it and take a -1 to most attacks.

[Psyren]

Most of the time sword and board is a subpar build, unless you are specifically going the shield bash build. You are much better 2 handing or 2 weapon fighting. You can still have a buckler if you go this route, but you won't get much use from it and take a -1 to most attacks.

I disagree that you won't get much use from it - bucklers can be enhanced just like any other shield, which works out to up to +6 AC just for having it, while the -1 attack penalty never goes up (and can be ditched entirely if you take Unhindering Shield.)

[Geddy2112]

I disagree that you won't get much use from it - bucklers can be enhanced just like any other shield, which works out to up to +6 AC just for having it, while the -1 attack penalty never goes up (and can be ditched entirely if you take Unhindering Shield.)

And you lose that AC bonus if you use a weapon in your off hand or 2 hand a weapon. Although I can see the argument that it is handy to have for those times you get attacked before you have a weapon drawn, and adding passive defensive abilities like fortification.

[Psyren]

And you lose that AC bonus if you use a weapon in your off hand or 2 hand a weapon.

Just take your hand off the 2H weapon as a free action before ending your turn. Buckler AC returns.

And again, Unhindering Shield throws out this problem entirely.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Just take your hand off the 2H weapon as a free action before ending your turn. Buckler AC returns.

And again, Unhindering Shield throws out this problem entirely.

I haven't seen unhindering shield, but the "take your hand off the 2h weapon" thing doesn't work in Pathfinder. The buckler text states that you lose your armor class bonus until your next turn if you use a weapon (or cast a spell) with your shield hand. Even if you take your hand off or drop the weapon at the end of your turn, you still don't get the AC back until the start of your next turn.

Even if it did work, not threatening with your primary weapon would be a pretty big drawback. (Also, even if it did work RAW, a lot of DMs would see it as a pretty transparent dodge and disallow it).


This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.

[Psyren]

I haven't seen unhindering shield, but the "take your hand off the 2h weapon" thing doesn't work in Pathfinder. The buckler text states that you lose your armor class bonus until your next turn if you use a weapon (or cast a spell) with your shield hand. Even if you take your hand off or drop the weapon at the end of your turn, you still don't get the AC back until the start of your next turn.

Even if it did work, not threatening with your primary weapon would be a pretty big drawback. (Also, even if it did work RAW, a lot of DMs would see it as a pretty transparent dodge and disallow it).

You have no "offhand" with a 2-handed weapon, so your quoted rule doesn't apply.

Unhindering Shield is a new feat from Armor Master's Handbook that came out recently. It states:


Unhindering Shield (Shield Mastery)
You are accustomed to fighting with your shield.

Prerequisites: Shield Focus, base attack bonus +6 or fighter level 4th, proficiency with bucklers.

Benefit: You still gain a buckler’s bonus to AC even if you use your shield hand for some other purpose. When you wield a buckler, your shield hand is considered free for the purposes of casting spells, wielding weapons, and using any other abilities that require you to have a free hand or interact with your shield, such as the swashbuckler’s precise strike deed or the Weapon Finesse feat.

Special: A monk with this feat is not considered to be using a shield for the purposes of his AC bonus, fast movement, or flurry of blows.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Tactician is a fun archetype for utility builds and can be handled a number of ways. I have a build that is intended for higher level play that is more of a party buffer and skill monkey. You use Bard Variant Multiclassing to pick up Inspire Courage, which you will use every 3 rounds (with Lingering Performance). The Cooperative Combatant ability that you gain at level 11 can be combined with the Helpful trait, to allow you to provide +4 bonus and the Harrying Partner's teamwork feat (which you share with the party via Tactician) to ensure that the AC or Attack bonus lasts the entire round of combat. At level 11 and with a high Intelligence, those buffs can be applied on the same round of combat.

There are other feats you can pick up as well for additional party buffing. You can wind up providing bonuses to Attack, Damage, AC and Saves all at the same time with this build.

I've also been toying with adding Intimidation options for some debuffing and to lock down Occult casters. The first step is the Bruising Intellect (http://archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Bruising%20Intellect) trait, which lets you substitute Intelligence for Charisma on intimidate checks (and makes it a class skill). This lets you dump your charisma and boost up your intelligence score. That's great for extra skills and for some of the higher level abilities from the Tactician.


Cornugon Smash (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cornugon%20Smash) - Free action demoralize when you Power Attack
Dazzling Display (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dazzling%20Display) - Full Round action to demoralize all targets within 30 feet
Demoralizing Lash (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Demoralizing%20Lash) - Hit a demoralized target with a flail to extend the duration by 1 round, or 1d4 rounds if you spend Combat Stamina.
Dreadful Carnage (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dreadful%20Carnage) - Free action demoralize on all enemies whithin 30 feet after you reduce a foe to 0 or fewer hitpoints.
Enforcer (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Enforcer) - Free action demoralize when you deal nonlethal damage (whip build) that leaves targets Frightened and Shaken (for a long duration) on a crit.
Fearsome Finish (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Fearsome%20Finish) - Gain a +4 on all intimidate checks for the duration of the encounter after reducing a foe to 0 or less hitpoints.
Intimidating Prowess (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Intimidating%20Prowess) - Add your strength bonus to all intimidate checks. The Combat Trick lets you negate the penalties for being smaller than a target.


That's just the short list to get you started. There are a ton of feats that interact with Intimidate, giving you multiple ways to get better action economy, AOE intimidate checks or stronger effects.

I'm a fan of Combat Maneuvers, though there are better archetypes to pick up if you want to focus on them. There are various feats that let you get free maneuver checks after an attack action or that let you combine two maneuvers at once. With these options you can be very effective at locking a target down.

If you go with Two-Weapon Fighting I'd suggest not going with the Tactician archetype, as you'll want to pick up Trained Grace via Advanced Weapon Training at level 5. A Tactician can't qualify for it until level 9.

As for your whip concerns, note that Effortless Lace (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Effortless%20Lac e) can be used to make the weapon count as a light weapon.

[Kol Korran]

First of all, thank you all for your replies!
I'll try to address seem of your suggestions and questions:
@ Psyren:
1. Dazzling Display sound neat! I don't like needing weapon focus,but I might think about it. Nice one!
2. I don't' think my GM knows of Combat Stamina (I sure didn't). I'll need to ask him.
3. I don't thin Unhindering Shield will be approved, since the GM only allows stuff from the PFSRD, and then only Paizo stuff. I couldn't find it on the site at all. Plus it takes a 96 BAB, which means it will come a bit late...

@ Captain Morgan:
1. I'm not using a regular fighter but the Tactician Archetype, which gives 4 skill points instead of 2 per level, which is quite useful. The character is flavored as a hobgoblin war band/ tribe leader, and is intended to interact in social scenes. As such, he'll need some charisma. The Extra Feats from the fighter "free" some of the regular feats to enhance social skills and such- Persuasive, Possibly Skill focus, Possibly skill unlocks, and so on. This is an important part of the character concept, So the charisma will stay.
2. As to the alternate classes: Thanks for the suggestions, you've got some interesting stuff. The Daring Champion cavalier doesn't fit the flavor and style, as do the slayer and inquisitor. I am intrigued by the holy tactician though... Might be worth pursing in the future, or perhaps retraining, if the concept and story progression fits. Currently, even without alignment in the game, he is quite far from being remotely close to the paladin concept. Still, worth keeping this in mind.

@ Geddy 2112:
I also thought of being able to quickly pull a ranged weapon, and perhaps alternate with melee if needed. It's part of the reason I opted for the buckler if using a shield, so he could either just throw javelins or such (Low level), or use the compound bow later on.

@ Nightbringer:
1. Thanks for the suggestions! I loved the corungan smash, fits very nicely! (Too bad it demands a BAB +6, will come later.) The rest fit less (Due to requirements mostly, or not quite for the concept), but I'll keep looking.
2. You've mentioned "Trained Grace"? I couldn't find it on the sight. Supposed to be taken by fighters at 5th level instead of 9th level for Tactician?
3. The Lace sounded interesting, and might work- Would free a feat. I'd be a bit worried about dispels at it, but it might just work... Thanks!


------------------------------------

Thanks all! I'll try thinking about some build ideas, and might post them once I can.
Thanks a bunch!

[Psyren]

3. I don't thin Unhindering Shield will be approved, since the GM only allows stuff from the PFSRD, and then only Paizo stuff. I couldn't find it on the site at all.

It is first-party Paizo. It's not on the PFSRD yet because the book only just came out (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9jbh?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Armor-Masters-Handbook) a week or so ago.



Plus it takes a 96 BAB, which means it will come a bit late...

I guess level 6 could be considered "late" in a campaign that only goes to 11, but that's going to hinder your options somewhat.

If the buckler's going to be an issue, toss it and get a ring of force shield or Shield of Swings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-of-swings-combat) or something instead. It's just a nice-to-have anyway.