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View Full Version : Saving Throw Variants - Even Saving Throws and Martial Prowess



mgshamster
2016-04-29, 11:27 PM
Here's a couple of variants for saving throws when it concerns a number of spells for which one has a proficient save. I've made three Variants: 1) Even Number of Saving Throws, and 2) Martial Prowess - these two variants are based on changing the Saving Throw associated with specific spells. Variant 3) Adding Proficiencies to Martial Classes addresses the same issue as Variant 2, but from a different direction.

Let's start with a baseline. There are 144 spells in the game which require a saving throw (See Spoiler 1 - List of Spells with a Saving Throw). For reference, there are 362 spells in the PHB.

If we tally up what each saving throw is for all the spells, this is what we get:

Str: 8 Spells
Dex: 41 Spells
Con: 34 Spells
Wis: 44 Spells
Int: 4 Spells
Cha: 13 Spells

Dex, Con, and Wis Saving Throws rule the game. But we already knew that; those are the common saving throws, whereas Str, Int, and Cha are the uncommon saving throws.

Every class gets one common and one uncommon saving throw. How does that play out when it comes to the number of spells a class has a decent chance of passing (aka they have proficiency in that saving throw)?




Class
Save 1
Save 2
# Spells


BARB
S
CO
42


BARD
D
CH
54


CLER
W
CH
57


DRU
I
W
48


FIGH
S
CO
42


MONK
S
D
49


PALA
W
CH
57


RAN
S
D
49


ROG
D
I
45


SOR
CO
CH
47


WAR
W
CH
57


WIZ
I
W
48



If we were to rank the classes by the number of spells which they have a proficient saving throw, it would look like this:

1: Cleric/Paladin/Warlock
2: Bard
3: Monk/Ranger
4: Druid
5: Sorcerer
6: Rogue
7: Barbarian/Fighter

Variant 1: Even Saving Throws

In this variant, the type of saving throw a spell requires has been changed so that they are evenly split among all the saving throws. Since there are 144 spells which have a saving throw, it breaks down to an easy 24 spells per save. If you look in Spoiler 1 - List of Spells with a Saving Throw, under the column "Variant 1," you can see which spells have been changed to what saving throw.

Most of the spells have a semblance of sense, at least to me. I will give warning, though, once I had all the spells rearranged so they made sense and matched the 24 required spells per saving through, I was still left with 37 spells under Dex and 11 spells under Int. I wasn't quite sure what to do, so I just changed 13 non-elemental dex-saved spells to int-saved spells. It doesn't really make sense to me, but it worked for the purposes of forcing all the saving-throw spells into 24 per saving throw. They are evenly split.

Each class now has an even number of spells for which they will have a decent chance at succeeding a saving throw.

I think this variant makes for some interesting analysis for which class would be good/bad at what spells. As the Battlemaster determines what class someone is, a spell caster can determine which spells are likely to be ineffective - and it's evenly split across the board for how many spells wouldn't work.

Variant 2 - Martial Prowess

I made this Variant for two reasons. 1) I grew up on 2nd edition, and the warrior classes (fighter, ranger, paladin) had the best saving throws in the game by the end of the game. I wanted to recreate that feel by giving them the most number of spells to be proficient against in the game (compared to the caster classes). 2) The power disparity between martials and casters still exists in 5e, albeit not as much as some other editions. This variant may help balance that out a bit as the martial classes are difficult to hit with spells.

In Spoiler 1 - List of Spells with a Saving Throw, you'll see the column for Variant 2 - Martial Prowess. This column shows what a particular spell/s saving throw has changed to to make this Variant happen.

In this variant, I made all the Physical Saving Throws have at least 32 spells which they save against and the Mental Saving Throws have at most 16. Here's the breakdown:

Str: 33 Spells
Dex: 41 Spells
Con: 34 Spells
Wis: 16 Spells
Int: 8 Spells
Cha: 12 Spells

Total: 144

Now, the number of spells each class saves against looks like this:

Barb: 67
Bard: 53
Cler: 28
Dru: 24
Figh: 67
Monk: 74
Pal: 28
Rang: 74
Rog: 49
Sor: 46
War: 46
Wiz: 24

If we were to rank them in the order of how many spells they can save against, it now looks like this:

1: Monk/Ranger
2: Barbarian/Fighter
3: Bard
4: Rogue
5: Sorcerer
6: Warlock
7: Cleric/Paladin
8: Druid/Wizard

Now, almost all the martial classes have the best magical defense in the game; they don't have a better saving throw than anyone else, but they can save against more spells than anyone else. I know the paladin ended up getting the short end of the martial stick here, but the paladin also gets a cool ability to add their charisma save to every saving throw at level 6, so I think it balances it off a bit.

When I first shared this Variant with a friend, he commented that it was a bit weird that the people who study magic the most are the least likely to make a saving throw against that same magic. Remember, though, that intelligence has the least number of saving throws in the game (4, and one of those is self-inflicted), so already we're not associating intelligent or studying with magical defense. This variant just takes it a step further and gives those with the most physical stature the best magical defense as if they could power right through it.







Variant 1
Variant 2


Spell Name
Save
Even spells
Martial Prowess


Bigby's Hand
AC




Chill Touch
AC




Chromatic Orb
AC




Eldritch Blast
AC




Fire Bolt
AC




Flame Blade
AC




Guiding Bolt
AC




Inflict Wounds
AC




Melf's Acid Arrow
AC




Mordekainen's Sword
AC




Produce Flame
AC




Ray of Frost
AC




Scorching Ray
AC




Shocking Grasp
AC




Spiritual Weapon
AC




Thorn Whip
AC




Vampiric Touch
AC




Witch Bolt
AC




Bane
CH




Banishment
CH




Calm Emotions
CH




Divine Word
CH




Forcecage
CH

S


Hallow
CH




Magic Circle
CH




Magic Jar
CH

S


Planar Binding
CH

S


Seeming
CH




Zone of Truth
CH




Dispel Evil and Good
CH, AC




Plane Shift
CH, AC




Blight
CO




Blinding Smite
CO




Blindness/Deafness
CO




Circle of Death
CO




Cloudkill
CO




Cone of Cold
CO




Destructive Wave (Smite?)
CO
S



Enlarge/Reduce
CO




Finger of Death
CO
S



Flesh to Stone
CO




Harm
CO




Heat Metal
CO




Holy Aura
CO
S



Insect Plague
CO
S



Levitate
CO




Moonbeam
CO




Otiluke Freezing Sphere
CO




Poison Spray
CO




Power Word Stun
CO
S



Searing Smite
CO




Shatter
CO




Stinking Cloud
CO




Sunbeam
CO
S



Sunburst
CO




Thunderwave
CO




Contagion
CO, AC
S (CO)



Ray of Enfeeblement
CO, AC




Ray of Sickness
CO, AC




Earthquake
CO, D




Storm of Vengeance
CO, D




Prismatic Wall
CO, D, W




Symbol
CO, W, CH, I




Acid Splash
D
I



Blade Barrier
D
I



Burning Hands
D
I



Call Lightning
D




Chain Lightning
D
S



Conjure Barrage
D
I



Conjure Volley
D




Cordon of Arrows
D




Delayed Blast Fireball
D




Disintegrate
D




Evard's Black Tentacles
D




Faerire Fire
D
S



Fire Storm
D




Fireball
D




Flame Strike
D
I



Flaming Sphere
D
I



Glyph of Warding
D




Grasping Vine
D
S



Grease
D




Guardian of Faith
D
I



Hail of Thorns
D




Hellish Rebuke
D
I



Hunger of Hadar
D




Ice Storm
D




Incendiary Cloud
D
I



Light
D




Lightning Arrow
D




Lightning Bolt
D




Meteor Swarm
D
S



Otiluke resilient Sphere
D
I



Reverse Gravity
D




Sacred Flame
D
I



Sleet Storm
D
I



Wall of Fire
D
I



Wall of Stone
D




Wall of Thorns
D
I (D)



Web
D
S (CO)



Wall of Ice
D, CO




Prismatic Spray
D, CO, W




Feeblemind
I




Phantasmal Force
I




Contact Other Plane
I (SELF)




Arms of Hadar
S




Control Water
S




Ensnaring Strike
S




Entangle
S




Gust of Wind
S




Thunderous Smite
S




Tsunami
S
CH
CH


Wind Wall
S




Animal Friendship
W




Antipathy/Sympathy
W
CH
S


Bestow Curse
W
CH
S


Charm Person
W

S


Command
W
CH
S


Compeled Duel
W
I
I


Compulsion
W




Confusion
W

S


Crown of Madness
W




Detect Thoughts
W
CH
S


Dissonant Whispers
W
CH
S


Dominate Beast
W
CH
S


Dominate Monster
W
I



Dominate Person
W
CH
S


Dream
W




Enthrall
W




Eyebite
W
CH
S


Fear
W
S
S


Geas
W
S
S


Hold Monster
W
I
I


Hold Person
W

S


Hypnotic Pattern
W
CH
S


Imprisonment
W
I
I


Mass Suggestion
W

S


Modify Memory
W

S


Otto's Irresistible Dance
W




Phantasmal Killer
W




Polymorph
W
I
I


Sanctuary
W
S
S


Scrying
W




Slow
W

S


Spirit Guardians
W
I
S


Staggering Smite
W

S


Suggestion
W

S


Tasha's Hideous Laughter
W
CH
CH


True Polymorph
W




Vicious Mockery
W

S


Weird
W




Wrathful Smite
W







Some people may want to include AC in the analysis for the types of defenses a class has against a spell, and that's a fair point to make. If we assume some classes will have a high AC compared to other classes, we can include them in our analysis.

For the purposes of this analysis, I'm classifying certain classes as AC classes. That is, classes which we can reasonably expect to have an AC above 20 during a good portion of the game. Sometimes a good build will change that, but I'm trying to consider generalities here, not niche cases.

The high AC classes are: Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger.

I've already included the AC spells in the above table, found in Spoiler 1 - List of Spells with a Saving Throw.

Looking at the baseline, here's the new list for the number of spells a class will have a good defense against:


Barb: 65
Bard: 54
Cler: 80
Dru: 48
Figh: 65
Monk: 72
Pal: 80
Rang: 72
Rog: 45
Sor: 47
War: 57
Wiz*: 48

*Wizard Bladesinger can have a good AC, which brings this number up to 71

If we were to rank them in the order of how many spells they can save against, it looks like this:

1: Cleric/Paladin
2: Monk/Ranger
3: Barbarian/Fighter
4: Warlock
5: Bard
6: Druid/Wizard*
7: Sorcerer
8: Rogue

Poor rogue.

*Bladesinger will move to rank 3, dropping the rest down one rank.

Variant 1
Since there are exactly 23 spells which target AC, I decided not to alter Variant 1: Even Saving Throws. It does mean that any given character with a high AC will have a good defense against 23 more spells than a class which does not (approximately a 33% increase in the number of spells).

Variant 2
If we include AC spells in this variant, the number of spells for which a class has a good defense changes to this:

Barb: 90
Bard: 53
Cler: 51
Dru: 24
Figh: 90
Monk: 97
Pal: 51
Rang: 97
Rog: 49
Sor: 46
War: 46
Wiz: 24

If we were to rank them in the order of how many spells they can save against, it now looks like this:

1: Monk/Ranger
2: Barbarian/Fighter
3: Bard
4: Cleric/Paladin
5: Rogue
6: Warlock/Sorcerer
7: Druid/Wizard

So the primary difference is that the Cleric and Paladin move up over the Rogue.

It still has a solid effect for Martial Prowess, so I think it's still valid.


Let's say that you don't want to change a bunch of spells and try to remember what saving throw that you've changed them to, is there another way to get the same feel as Variant 2? Yes! It's as simple as giving the martial classes a third saving throw proficiency without changing anything else in the game.

Here's my proposed saving throw proficiencies for the martial classes:

Barbarian: Str, Dex, Con
Fighter: (Str, Con, Wis) OR (Dex, Con, Int)
Monk: Str, Dex, Wis
Ranger: Str, Dex, Con
Rogue: Dex, Int, Cha

I didn't want to add to the paladin because of their charisma bonus to all their saves.

Without Considering AC
The number of spells each class has a good defense (saving throw) changes to:

Barb: 83
Bard: 54
Cler: 57
Dru: 48
Figh: 78/79
Monk: 93
Pal: 57
Rang: 83
Rog: 58
Sor: 47
War: 57
Wiz: 48

If we were to rank them in the order of how many spells they can save against, it now looks like this:

1: Monk
2: Barbarian/Ranger
3: Fighter
4: Rogue
5: Cleric/Paladin/Warlock
6: Bard
7: Druid/Wizard
8: Sorcerer

With AC Consideration

Barb: 108
Bard: 54
Cler: 80
Dru: 48
Figh: 101/102
Monk: 116
Pal: 80
Rang: 106
Rog: 58
Sor: 47
War: 57
Wiz: 48

If we were to rank them in the order of how many spells they can save against, it now looks like this:

1: Monk
2: Barbarian/Ranger
3: Fighter
4: Rogue
5: Cleric/Paladin
6: Rogue
7: Warlock
8: Bard
9: Druid/Wizard
10: Sorcerer

Tanarii
2016-04-30, 12:12 AM
All martial classes get a special bonus to saves or effects in their various class features,

Barbarians get Danger Sense. Berserkers get Mindless Rage.
Fighters get Indomitable.
Monks get Evasion, Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body and Diamond Soul.
Paladins get Aura of Protection, Aura of Courage, and Cleansing Touch. Devotion gets Aura of Devotion and Holy Nimbus. Ancients gets Aura of Warding.
Rangers get Lands Stride. Hunters get Steel Will and Evasion.
Rogues get Evasion and Slippery Mind.

Edit: not trying to put down your idea. Pointing out something to take into account.

Pope Scarface
2016-04-30, 12:45 AM
Shouldn't monster abilities be included in this math as well?

Firechanter
2016-04-30, 03:01 AM
Shouldn't monster abilities be included in this math as well?

Actually, PCs need to save against Monster abilities about nine times more often than they have to save against spells. And most of those spells are Fireballs.

Edit:

However, kudos to you for the table sorting spells by saving throw. Been looking for something just like that!

Kryx
2016-04-30, 07:06 AM
I actually calculated monster and spell saving throw abilities. See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=0

Str 78
Dex 114
Con 169
Int 8
Wis 90
Cha 22

Firechanter
2016-04-30, 07:11 AM
Good jawb!