DFRPG (Un)Seelie Magic

[Psykenthrope]

For those of you on this forum who are familiar with the Dresden Files Roleplaying Game, I have a question about how Seelie and Unseelie magic work. (Also I guess, sponsored magic in general, but the character I'm making is much more likely to pick up one of the first two).

The question is this: If Seelie Magic is the only form of spellcasting that I have, can I cast an evocation or a thaumaturgic spell without incurring debt? That is to say, can I cast the way a wizard would, and just take stress on the appropriate track or spend the appropriate amount of time? Does debt only accrue when I use the Seelie Magic in certain ways, or whenever I use it at all? If it's only when I use it in certain ways, what ways are those?

I've read through the text on the power in the book a couple times now and I remain confused.
Any help will be much appreciated. Thank you in advance.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

AFB at the moment, but as I recall just casting normally doesn't accumulate debt and works the same as 'normal' evocation or thaumaturgy would, though you can accrue a point of debt to essentially add a fate point to the roll.

[Psykenthrope]

AFB at the moment, but as I recall just casting normally doesn't accumulate debt and works the same as 'normal' evocation or thaumaturgy would, though you can accrue a point of debt to essentially add a fate point to the roll.

That's what I thought too, but I couldn't find anything concrete. It's possible I just didn't see it.
If it's not too much trouble, would you please check you book at some point and get back to me? My GM would also like to know about this, as he's having trouble figuring it out as well. Much thanks.

[Rater202]

Essentially Sponsored Magic lets you get someone to spot you a Fate Point every so often.

That's when you accrue debt.

Otherwise, you're just casting.

[Psykenthrope]

Essentially Sponsored Magic lets you get someone to spot you a Fate Point every so often.

That's when you accrue debt.

Otherwise, you're just casting.

Excellent, thank you. This opens up many character options that I had previously set aside, since I wasn't sure how the rules for them would work.

[Vknight]

Excellent, thank you. This opens up many character options that I had previously set aside, since I wasn't sure how the rules for them would work.

Also of course the (Un)Seelie Magic also is listed to things which are thematic to them. Just like with channeling/ritual
Which is important because someone using Unseelie magic isn't going to throw fire. And a person with Seelie magic won't be freezing others solid.
Oh also of course you can potentially have (Un)Seelie Magic without it being sponsored by being a changeling etc.

[Psykenthrope]

Also of course the (Un)Seelie Magic also is listed to things which are thematic to them. Just like with channeling/ritual
Which is important because someone using Unseelie magic isn't going to throw fire. And a person with Seelie magic won't be freezing others solid.
Oh also of course you can potentially have (Un)Seelie Magic without it being sponsored by being a changeling etc.

In the case of my character being a changeling, and thus having (Un)Seelie Magic naturally, would I be unable to use the freebie fate point dealie?

Also, do I incur debt when I use (Un)Seelie Magic to do thaumaturgy at evocation speed?

[thorr-kan]

You might want to take any questions up on the jim-butcher.com forums. The DFRPG has an active subforum there.

[Psykenthrope]

You might want to take any questions up on the jim-butcher.com forums. The DFRPG has an active subforum there.

~headsmack~
Right, I'll do that. Thanks.

[Vknight]

~headsmack~
Right, I'll do that. Thanks.

Yes/No on the getting a freebie fate point.
If the magic comes from the mantle that your Faerie parent has then your probably occurring a debt to your mom or dad otherwise I'd say no

[kyoryu]

Actually, (Un)Seelie magic is specifically called out as an example of Sponsored Magic:


Seelie and Unseelie Magic (see the abilities on page 290) are examples of this concept, drawing on the ancient powers of the Summer and Winter Courts of Faerie.

This would technically make "sponsored seelie magic" or the like redundant.

The major limitations of using sponsored magic is the fact that it must be thematically appropriate, and in keeping with the sponsor's agenda:


In order to gain the benefits of sponsored magic, the spell you’re casting must align with the agenda of the sponsor (page 289) and fit into the theme and scope of the sponsor’s particular “flavor” of power (see the types of sponsored magic, page 290). As a result, sponsored magic is narrower in its focus and has a sort of implicit approval component, in exchange for the extra bit of potency and flexibility it offers.

So, no the limitation isn't about Fate Points or anything, it's about what you can and can't do. Merely using the power doesn't accrue debt, as you're implicitly using it in the interests of your sponsor.

However, it does point out that various aspects (including Consequences) from sponsored magic *do* give your sponsor an opportunity to Compel you:



When aspects result from the casting effort—whether inflicted on yourself or others as consequences or temporary aspects, or as part of the preparation phase—they’re always colored, at least a touch, by the sponsor’s influence and agenda. If you take a consequence from sponsored magic, whether from backlash or just because, it gives the sponsor a window to compel you in various ways.

You can also choose to "supercharge" your spell by incurring debt. This is *optional*.



Once per roll, you may invoke an aspect without spending a fate point. Doing so adds one to the debt between you and your sponsor. The sponsor may collect on this debt later, trading in compels on you for that debt on a one-for-one basis—compels that get you no fate points if you accept, and which you must accept unless you have an actual fate point to spend to refuse it.

Essentially, what you're doing is allowing a sort of "pre-Compel" on yourself. This is *optional*. The key word here is "may".

[kyoryu]

Some specific examples of things, assuming a character with Unseelie Magic:

1) PC evokes some tasty icicle nastiness at a servant of the Summer Court that's in their way.
BOOYAH! Mab approves. Spells are cast, given appropriate skill checks. Nothing else bad happens.

2) PC casts a nice gentle warming spell to keep their companions from freezing.
NOPE! Double nope. We don't do the "warm" thing in Arctis Tor.

3) PC casts a spell, and takes a Consequence as a result.
The resulting Consequence needs to reflect the source in some way, and is a handle for Mab-like Compels.

4) PC casts a spell... and it just ain't enough. They reach deep into the Heart of Winter...
They get a bonus invocation, and incur a point of debt. In Arctis Tor, Mab smiles.

5) PC casts a spell on someone that is actually carrying out Mab's will.
BZZT. No way, no how. Sorry 'bout that.

[Rater202]

Note that sponsored magic can apparently be combined with regular magic(though it's vague how) and do things like augment the spells-enhancing preeixisting fire evocations with the power of winter is something that can be done, for example.

[Psykenthrope]

Note that sponsored magic can apparently be combined with regular magic(though it's vague how) and do things like augment the spells-enhancing preeixisting fire evocations with the power of winter is something that can be done, for example.

That's probably a use for the debt incurring aspect invocation.

[Rater202]

That's probably a use for the debt incurring aspect invocation.

No-it explicitly sys that you can work the magic with your normal magic specilizations as a normal casting. It doen'st say anything about it under the debt occurring part.

It's just, it doesn't say if you use your normal specialty instead of your sponsored specialty or in addition to it. The first is kosher under the rules(you normally only get one specialty for overlap) but the second is consistent with the book, where Hellfire/Soulfire/Winter Magic boosted spells are stronger than what Harry normally has to work with.

[kyoryu]

It seems mostly like it's a matter of the narrative permissions you gain from using that, rather than anything else. I could be reading that wrong.

[Vknight]

Note that sponsored magic can apparently be combined with regular magic(though it's vague how) and do things like augment the spells-enhancing preeixisting fire evocations with the power of winter is something that can be done, for example.
An example from the books is harry using the power gifted to him by summer to bolster his fire magic.
I'd assume using the higher specializations


It seems mostly like it's a matter of the narrative permissions you gain from using that, rather than anything else. I could be reading that wrong.
With a mix of this.
Oh and I was more pointing out because (Un)Seelie can be sponsored magic but if your a changeling it could also be innate to your nature.
For example
Changeling character
His Mantle of power as a faerie gives him X abilities those include (Un)seelie magic.
or
His Mantle of power as a faerie gives him X abilities and his parent gives him (Un)seelie magic, for any number of reasons. Maybe to make sure they know how to use magic? Maybe to have them incur a debt? Maybe to strip them of the power later on for some reason?

[kyoryu]

I think it's less that the parent "gives" their offspring abilities deliberately, and more that it comes with the nature.

Ultimately, the source of power for any of the Fae is going to be the Fae royalty - The Summer/Winter triumvirate, the Erlking, and perhaps any other Fae of the power that they are truly independent. (Please let Toot-toot become this!)

[Vknight]

Toot-Toot could but his connection to Harry as the Winter Knight is probably interfering with that.

[Rater202]

It was mentioned somewhere that toot was growing in both size and power significantly faster than normal for fae due to a combination of his authority as the Generous-Major General-General of the Za Lord's Guard and his reputation getting a huge boost due to his strong association with Harry Dresden causing him to get some glory by proxy whenever Harry becomes more well known, coupled with his association with Harry resulting in him preforming actions that are otherwise outside his normal actions and earning more respect of his own. Butcher said something along the lines of Toot's little red wagon being hitched to Harry's Shooting Star.

Fairy Power increases in proportion to authority and reputation, after all. I think a few books back, Butcher mentioned that Toot was very close to becoming a Sidhe. Not quite on the level of one of the Immortal Lords of Fairy, but...

[Vknight]

It was mentioned somewhere that toot was growing in both size and power significantly faster than normal for fae due to a combination of his authority as the Generous-Major General-General of the Za Lord's Guard and his reputation getting a huge boost due to his strong association with Harry Dresden causing him to get some glory by proxy whenever Harry becomes more well known, coupled with his association with Harry resulting in him preforming actions that are otherwise outside his normal actions and earning more respect of his own. Butcher said something along the lines of Toot's little red wagon being hitched to Harry's Shooting Star.

Fairy Power increases in proportion to authority and reputation, after all. I think a few books back, Butcher mentioned that Toot was very close to becoming a Sidhe. Not quite on the level of one of the Immortal Lords of Fairy, but...

Toot may well grow strong enough to have a mantle of some sort that will transfer to another, should he pass.

[kyoryu]

Butcher said something along the lines of Toot's little red wagon being hitched to Harry's Shooting Star.

Let's not forget that Toot-toot and his followers iced the freakin' Summer Lady.

[Vknight]

Let's not forget that Toot-toot and his followers iced the freakin' Summer Lady.

Yup though keeping in mind that was because of Harry and through Harry's directive.

[Rater202]

As far as the Queens of Fairy, the narrative, and Harry himself are concerned, Harry is 100% responsible for that and the swarm of pixies were just the murder weapon