Antimagic Fields

[Esprit15]

So the end of another campaign went down last night, and a couple questions came up as the antagonist to the current PCs (who allied with the BBEG) basically smashed the Beguiler into the ground and the Druid/Master of Many Forms pulled the BBEG away from almost certain death.

How does a dragon's breath weapon interact with Antimagic Field? It's a supernatural ability, so I had ruled that it doesn't pierce, but after more thought, it also doesn't have any spell resistance (yes) tag, so maybe it would?

What are ways for a non-prepared caster to avoid being messed up by AMF? While a wizard or cleric can know ahead of time "Hey, let's swap out these spells," a sorcerer, or worse, any of the specialist mages, seem to be up a creek without a paddle.

It didn't feel right that with one spell, the factotum that these two PCs fought could negate pretty much all of their class abilities, and I want to be able to go to the players and say "Hey, good game, here's ways that you could have won that," rather than "Yeah, that fight was unwinnable."

[Morcleon]

As the spell states, "The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities", meaning a breath weapon would not affect anything within the barrier.

For spontaneous casters, any instantaneous Conjuration spells bypass both SR (usually) and AMFs ("The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result"). My two favorites are the Orb line (pick an energy type for 1d6/CL, max 15d6 plus a status effect, or Force for max 10d6 and force damage) and Arc of Lightning, which connects two creatures and deals 1d6/CL, max 15d6 with Reflex half to all within that line.

[Nettlekid]

An antimagic field blocks the functioning of all Su abilities, SLAs, and spells. Technically each of those things is capable to be used, but any magical function fails and the use would just be expended. An AMF also blocks LoE for all magical effects, so a creature in the field cannot be affected by the dragon's breath weapon.

The only thing that "gets through" an AMF are instantaneous duration Conjuration (Creation) spells because technically the magic is creating the object, but the object is nonmagical once created. They couldn't come into existence within an AMF (since magic is conjuring them) but they can pass through just fine. If you used Telekinesis to pick up a rock and then threw that with your hand, the attack wouldn't fail because the projectile had been acquired by magical means. The Orb of X spells are the most popular example of this. The fact that they're SR: No spells isn't the reason they're unaffected by AMF, but both of those facts are related to the fact that they're Conjuration (Creation).

AMF is absolutely a game-changer at higher level play, so it's reasonable that you feel as you do about it. But you're quite right, dragon breath shouldn't be able to penetrate it.

(Partially ninja'd)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Regarding Dragon Breath vs. AMF, it should be suppressed, as Supernatural effects generally are. Note that Supernatural effects generally don't allow SR ever, and yet they tend to be suppressed. The reason why certain spell effects aren't suppressed is that, by the rules, they create something "nonmagical" that then has an effect. What qualifies as "nonmagical" here is sometimes really stupid (orb of force lol), but them's the rules.

As far as what they "could" have done in theory, there are ways, but it depends on optimization level, item availability and general preparedness/paranoia.

If they have a prep caster buddy (or a wand I guess) and some spell list enhancement (the Beguiler should have ways to teleport and fly in normal circumstances), the tinfoil hat trick works. Basically construct a conic hat of decently-solid material with a proportional brim, large enough to contain the character entirely and with a bottom that runs flush with the ground. Cast Shrink Item on it. Wear it as a hat. An AMF will suppress the Shrink Item effect and surround the still-buffed caster with a cone of LoE-blocking. A regular arcanist then probably triggers a contingency or a celerity or some such, whereas a Beguiler has fewer options without serious investment... but moving far away from the AMF with some teleportation effect is probably a good idea.

Other options for defense against AMF:

- Hide so effectively, even mundanely, the factotum doesn't know where to move the AMF or even if the AMF has worked. If the Beguiler is in the AMF on their turn, they can just sneak outside of it and then do their thing. Unfortunately this is build-dependent.
- If they don't get wrecked or stuck in one round, AMFs are pretty small and easy to move out of.
- Flight in general is a pretty useful way to avoid AMF, unless the Factotum has mundane means of flight; and even, the non-AMF caster should have a host of magical means to buff his flight speed that the AMF guy doesn't.

Options for offense against AMF:

- Expensive scrolls of Orb of X and the like.
- Summon/buff ranged attackers
- Shrink Item'd boulders. Fly above the dude with AMF on, drop boulders, boulders expand in AMF, rocks fall everyone dies.

[Morcleon]

Actually, it doesn't have to be (creation). AMF just says "instantaneous Conjuration". (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)

[Esprit15]

As far as what they "could" have done in theory, there are ways, but it depends on optimization level, item availability and general preparedness/paranoia.


If they have a prep caster buddy (or a wand I guess) and some spell list enhancement (the Beguiler should have ways to teleport and fly in normal circumstances), the tinfoil hat trick works. Basically construct a conic hat of decently-solid material with a proportional brim, large enough to contain the character entirely and with a bottom that runs flush with the ground. Cast Shrink Item on it. Wear it as a hat. An AMF will suppress the Shrink Item effect and surround the still-buffed caster with a cone of LoE-blocking. A regular arcanist then probably triggers a contingency or a celerity or some such, whereas a Beguiler has fewer options without serious investment... but moving far away from the AMF with some teleportation effect is probably a good idea.
No prepared caster who can cast it. Partly because the party split due to one group siding with BBEG, partly because nobody played such a caster in the first place


Hide so effectively, even mundanely, the factotum doesn't know where to move the AMF or even if the AMF has worked. If the Beguiler is in the AMF on their turn, they can just sneak outside of it and then do their thing. Unfortunately this is build-dependent.
Unlikely, given that cunning knowledge makes most of his skill checks "Yes."


If they don't get wrecked or stuck in one round, AMFs are pretty small and easy to move out of.
Less so when he's a chain tripper.


Flight in general is a pretty useful way to avoid AMF, unless the Factotum has mundane means of flight; and even, the non-AMF caster should have a host of magical means to buff his flight speed that the AMF guy doesn't.
He did have mundane flight, but I don't think it was as fast as most magical flight spells (maybe overland flight). And like I said, Beguiler, so his flight ability at all was limited. The Druid was busy rescuing the guy they were working for, or they probably would have flown away on his back.


Expensive scrolls of Orb of X and the like.
Possible. Guy bought a wand of Fireball, making it an Orb of X might have been a better choice.

Summon/buff ranged attackers
Ranged attackers weren't really a thing in their group. Like I said, party ended up splitting, and the ranged attacker who would have been with them left at the beginning of the session due to personal reasons, though as a warlock, likely wouldn't have been able to help, anyways.

Shrink Item'd boulders. Fly above the dude with AMF on, drop boulders, boulders expand in AMF, rocks fall everyone dies.
Alas, the limit of the party's clever tricks seems to be "All the ways shoving one bag of holding into another can solve problems."

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

No prepared caster who can cast it. Partly because the party split due to one group siding with BBEG, partly because nobody played such a caster in the first placeMagic item availability would be their main recourse, then, but it's definitely more of a prep-caster trick, sure.

Unlikely, given that cunning knowledge makes most of his skill checks "Yes."Hiding is a lot easier to pump than spotting, if that's what you're going for, even if the spotter has some inherent advantages. But you have to be going for it. (Not to mention Cunning Knowledge would work... once, and only then if he knew when to roll the money spot check.)

Less so when he's a chain tripper.Hence why I said, "if they don't get stuck." Tumble + ways to GTFO as a swift action or contingent effect work here. Assuming the Factotum is next to you and you're prone when your turn begins, you can get up (provoke AoO, but since you're prone when provoked it's just damage), tumble away, and then use your swift to really get away. If they lacked ranks in Tumble and/or lacked ways to do significant things with their swift action, an AMFing chain tripper is probably more optimized than they are. Even without any of that, the casters can scatter to avoid both of them getting locked down, as the AMFer can only be in two places at once.

He did have mundane flight, but I don't think it was as fast as most magical flight spells (maybe overland flight). And like I said, Beguiler, so his flight ability at all was limited. The Druid was busy rescuing the guy they were working for, or they probably would have flown away on his back.Beguilers with decent item and/or feat access could make this work. But part of this does seem like a Beguiler would be better off doing the rescuing bit; I'm not sure about the specifics of the group, though.

Alas, the limit of the party's clever tricks seems to be "All the ways shoving one bag of holding into another can solve problems."If they weren't prepared for an AMF at all, then it probably was an unwinnable fight, for them anyway.

[Esprit15]

Yeah, I'm getting that sense. Well, lessons learned on both sides, I guess. Also: That's what happens when you concentrate a bunch of casters in one place - martial classes with antimagic field get sent after you.

In the end, one of them didn't die, and he did protect the person that he needed to. BBEG just wasn't able to go about his plans, since the same person would have been sent after them if any evidence of the guy turned up again.