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Douglas
2016-04-30, 05:26 PM
I'm about to join a high optimization game, and I'm making a Spell to Power Erudite. Various shenanigans that allow picking spells from absolutely any spell list in the game (arcane or not) have been approved, along with potentially taking arcane spellcasting PrCs as if they were psionic manifesting PrCs (though using Cerebremancer to double advance is specifically ruled invalid).

My plan so far is to make a Necropolitan Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves), trade elf racial weapon proficiency feats for the Spell to Power, Favored Discipline, and Mantled Erudite (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) options (sometimes it only loads half the page for me until I refresh, weird), take Faerie Mysteries Initiate to enjoy d12+int hp per level, take Mark of the Dauntless to combine with the Celerity line, and abuse domain and weird class lists to get spells at unusually low levels (Trapsmith level 1 Haste, for example). All of this has been approved already, to give you some idea of what level of optimization this game is aiming for.

So, things I want help with:
I'd really like to minimize the XP cost of learning new spells/powers, and that's based on Erudite class level only. Ideally I'd want only a single level of Erudite, with all other levels in full casting/manifesting PrCs, but I'm having trouble finding good resources on that. The information compilations I've found are all about how to get specific qualifications early, which is useful for entering a class you already have in mind, but what I really want is a class - any class - that I could enter early (ideally at level 2, to be an Erudite 1/Something X) and use to advance Erudite fully. I could use Cerebremancer just for that benefit, to be an Erudite 3/Cerebremancer X, but that still has 2 unwanted levels of Erudite.

Advantageous unusual spell lists: I can learn Haste as a level 1 spell because of Trapsmith. I can learn Heal as a level 5 spell because of Adept. I can learn Lesser Restoration as a level 1 spell because of Paladin. I can learn Tongues as a level 2 spell because of Bard. And so on. What other examples are out there that I might have missed, especially the more obscure ones that are listed only in the class, not in the spell's description?

Efficient spells: My biggest drawback relative to a normal caster is fewer power points compared to the equivalent value of a caster's spell slots, and the need to spend PP to augment spells to get full caster level benefit. To mitigate this, what spells would you suggest with an especially high effect-to-power-point ratio, even if spread over multiple rounds? For a specific issue, Erudite requires augmenting for damage scaling only if the damage is in dice per caster level; are there any good spells that work around that by scaling not in dice?

I will be starting at level 4 (after reducing xp for Necropolitan), but the game may continue to much higher levels eventually.

MisterKaws
2016-04-30, 06:22 PM
Draining a level, followed up by spending the half-level XP in something(learning powers?) and immediately casting restoration is a popular trick in TO. It's a level 3 spell for healers, so I'd advise you to get Necropolitan later, instead of starting with it, since you'd get more out of that because of all the stuff you can get from your team's casters by spamming drain+restoration.

Also, get Wings of Cover. No buts, just get it.

Douglas
2016-04-30, 09:20 PM
Oh, the Healer spell list. Didn't think of that one and it does have a few improved spell levels, thanks! Too bad most of them are positive energy healing spells, though, that's not so useful for a Necropolitan. I don't suppose anyone knows of an obscure feat that's the opposite of Tomb Tainted Soul, or something?

Yes, Wings of Cover is amazing. I even considered going Necropolitan Dragonborn Fire Elf to have the dragonblood subtype and thus be able to protect allies with it too, but unfortunately that would forbid getting a dragonmark for Mark of the Dauntless.

Besides the need to survive the low levels in the first place, Necropolitan costs more XP the later I take it. Even if that trick works perfectly for 0-loss power learning, I'd have to learn a minimum of 9 powers per level up for it to be a net gain, and that's without improving my current count of 3 Erudite levels. Also, I'm not sure the structure of the game would allow waiting for a negative level to turn into a lost level during downtime.

Troacctid
2016-04-30, 09:29 PM
Arcane Fusion is big, because it arguably allows you to bypass the unique powers per day limit.

Mental Pinnacle is very PP-efficient.

I remember seeing a Chameleon handbook with a list of underleveled spells, but I don't have the link.

ben-zayb
2016-04-30, 10:00 PM
This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0) is the Chameleon handbook, although I could've sworn it still missed a spell or two.

Pippin
2016-05-01, 03:45 AM
Metaconcert arguably lets you bypass the unique-powers-per-day limit as well. Hire 10 Fine psionic followers (psionic insects?) and swallow them all into your Hoard Gullet. Enjoy the free +10 to DCs :D

Douglas
2016-05-01, 05:39 PM
This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0) is the Chameleon handbook, although I could've sworn it still missed a spell or two.
Wow, that's going to be a really useful index for this. Thank you!

Anyone got ideas for entering a full progression PrC at level 2 (through shenanigans, of course), or spells that do something like 3 damage per level instead of 1d6 damage per level?

MisterKaws
2016-05-01, 05:48 PM
Wow, that's going to be a really useful index for this. Thank you!

Anyone got ideas for entering a full progression PrC at level 2 (through shenanigans, of course), or spells that do something like 3 damage per level instead of 1d6 damage per level?


I don't, but I have counters to almost every single of the level 3 shenanigans, so I don't think you'll find anything at 2.

Bakkan
2016-05-02, 02:57 PM
Gaining a 3rd-level spells at 1st level allows entry into Rainbow Servant at 2nd (with full casting as per text). With spells, Earth Spell+Versatile Spellcaster works for spontaneous casters, and Earth Spell+Precocious Apprentice works for wizards. I'm not familiar enough with psionics to know how to do this for the Erudite.

Douglas
2016-05-02, 08:48 PM
Gaining a 3rd-level spells at 1st level allows entry into Rainbow Servant at 2nd (with full casting as per text). With spells, Earth Spell+Versatile Spellcaster works for spontaneous casters, and Earth Spell+Precocious Apprentice works for wizards. I'm not familiar enough with psionics to know how to do this for the Erudite.
Earth Spell would work fantastically well, if only it had lower prerequisites - the constitution requirement in particular makes it almost absolutely forbidden for a Necropolitan. There are other ways to manage above-cap Heightening if the GM rules Magic Mantle the way I think he will, though.

Rainbow Servant? That's perfect, everything else I found had skill rank requirements which are much harder to work around. Thanks! Now to see if the GM agrees with my rules interpretations...

This pretty much leaves just finding high-efficiency spells now, I think.

MisterKaws
2016-05-02, 09:08 PM
Gaining a 3rd-level spells at 1st level allows entry into Rainbow Servant at 2nd (with full casting as per text). With spells, Earth Spell+Versatile Spellcaster works for spontaneous casters, and Earth Spell+Precocious Apprentice works for wizards. I'm not familiar enough with psionics to know how to do this for the Erudite.

Those are effective 3rd-level spells, plus RAI, Rule zero, and PHB's spells per day section all point towards it being invalid.

Douglas
2016-05-02, 09:40 PM
Those are effective 3rd-level spells, plus RAI, Rule zero, and PHB's spells per day section all point towards it being invalid.
Considering the rules weirdness that's already been approved for this game (I mean, really, paying the cost of an alternate class feature that says it replaces "your 1st-level bonus feat" by giving up an elf racial weapon proficiency?), RAI is extremely unlikely to be relevant here.

meemaas
2016-05-03, 10:51 AM
Earth Spell would work fantastically well, if only it had lower prerequisites - the constitution requirement in particular makes it almost absolutely forbidden for a Necropolitan. There are other ways to manage above-cap Heightening if the GM rules Magic Mantle the way I think he will, though.

Rainbow Servant? That's perfect, everything else I found had skill rank requirements which are much harder to work around. Thanks! Now to see if the GM agrees with my rules interpretations...

This pretty much leaves just finding high-efficiency spells now, I think.

Odds are he would. He has allowed two different early entry Rainbow Warsnakes. Although if this encounter keeps going downhill, the current one will probably be dead too.

Douglas
2016-05-03, 08:09 PM
Odds are he would. He has allowed two different early entry Rainbow Warsnakes. Although if this encounter keeps going downhill, the current one will probably be dead too.
He already has in a PM, actually. The main sticking point I was concerned about was how far the Magic Mantle's "magic = psionics" clause goes, as my method of early entry qualification applies that in 4 or 5 different ways, but his only comments were about my plans for retraining to save two feats.