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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Firearms pt 2 ~ Rogue Archetype: Buccaneer



Final Hyena
2016-04-30, 05:52 PM
This is a series of posts of content for renaissance firearms.

http://s32.postimg.org/ffy4tenth/Firearms.png
Buccaneer (http://www.naturalcrit.com/homebrew/share/SJbkwSnMW)

Part one ~ Ranger; Bounty Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486356-Firearms-pt-1-Ranger-Archetype-Bounty-Hunter)

Amnoriath
2016-05-01, 08:51 AM
Honestly very weak in all accounts. Not only are you incentivising a bad ability score for a rogue you don't even play up its strength. I had a long back and forth with someone else about this who refused to listen and was convinced it was best thing ever but at the very least you could say it did play up its strength eventually. This doesn't though and doesn't evoke the feel of a buccaneer much at all either. On top of all this you give a capstone that ultimately makes higher damage rolls less likely to happen because of the shear number of small dice.

tombowings
2016-05-01, 08:57 AM
I definitely agree with the poster above. While the level 3 features look fine, the archetype looks weak overall. Luckily, it's a lot easier to power up a sub-class than it is to tone one down.

Final Hyena
2016-05-01, 09:15 AM
Honestly very weak in all accounts. Not only are you incentivising a bad ability score for a rogue you don't even play up its strength.
It is suppose to be a secondary stat.


I had a long back and forth with someone else about this who refused to listen and was convinced it was best thing ever but at the very least you could say it did play up its strength eventually. This doesn't though
it did play up its strength eventually. This doesn't.
I feel like I'm missing something, that appears to be a contradiction to me.


and doesn't evoke the feel of a buccaneer much at all either. On top of all this you give a capstone that ultimately makes higher damage rolls less likely to happen because of the shear number of small dice.
A buccaneer is a pirate, which is why it is flavoured around strength, intimidate, being able to get in close as well as being more generally combat focussed.


On top of all this you give a capstone that ultimately makes higher damage rolls less likely to happen because of the shear number of small dice
You would rather do d6 over 2d3 or 3.5 over 4 average damage?


I definitely agree with the poster above. While the level 3 features look fine, the archetype looks weak overall. Luckily, it's a lot easier to power up a sub-class than it is to tone one down.
If the level 3 feature is fine, what's wrong with the others?
I compared the 9 and 13th feature against the thief/assassin which don't tend to give the rogue much power they're more skill focussed.
The 17th level feature is an average damage increase of 0.5 damage per sneak or +4.5 to +5 damage from level 17 to 19.
A Thief/assassin tend to get an extra 11d6+5 (43.5) damage.
Perhaps a buff to d8s would be more appropriate.

Amnoriath
2016-05-01, 10:19 AM
A while ago someone put up a Street Fighter rogue archetype, eventually it got advantage on most strength checks as well as intimidation checks and even a second sneak attack provided it was grappling that one creature but for most of its career it was a squishy melee combatant that lagged behind in the stats it was set out to do. I had proven over and over again how a Barbarian multi-class would be better in almost every category to where I even wanted to put it to the test but the person kept changing the scenarios, rules, and even the settings to where I grew tired of them and couldn't trust them to stay true to anything they would agree to or even if fair play would be possible. Yours though seems to focus on a utility based skill that doesn't even change the result of a success while begging you to use an unoptimal ability score for situational benefits. While yours can still be a ranged combatant it doesn't seem to have a real purpose and lacks the flavor or ribbons to give a true Buccaneer feel.
The problem with the logic of the more dice=more damage is that in practice when there is already a lot of dice being thrown around getting high results with more of them is less likely to happen because of the interaction between them. So, the only advantage you gave them is that you gave a much higher minimum but probably made it harder to get close to the maximum. It is also cumbersome and bogs down play. It could be avoided more if you work with less die but that is bad for play time.

Final Hyena
2016-05-01, 10:46 AM
A while ago someone put up a Street Fighter rogue archetype, eventually it got advantage on most strength checks as well as intimidation checks and even a second sneak attack provided it was grappling that one creature but for most of its career it was a squishy melee combatant that lagged behind in the stats it was set out to do. I had proven over and over again how a Barbarian multi-class would be better in almost every category to where I even wanted to put it to the test but the person kept changing the scenarios, rules, and even the settings to where I grew tired of them and couldn't trust them to stay true to anything they would agree to or even if fair play would be possible.
Ok. That isn't remotely relevant to the discussion. The question is whether my class balances against other rogues.


Yours though seems to focus on a utility based skill that doesn't even change the result of a success while begging you to use an unoptimal ability score for situational benefits. While yours can still be a ranged combatant it doesn't seem to have a real purpose and lacks the flavor or ribbons to give a true Buccaneer feel.
By level 9 it is easy for a rogue to have 20 dex and 14 str or +5 ~ +2 getting rid of disadvantage is worth a +5 making it worthwhile. Ow and lets not forget that disadvantage would take away sneak attack.
He's a pirate, his purpose is to shoot and threaten people.


The problem with the logic of the more dice=more damage is that in practice when there is already a lot of dice being thrown around getting high results with more of them is less likely to happen because of the interaction between them. So, the only advantage you gave them is that you gave a much higher minimum but probably made it harder to get close to the maximum.
When you add more dice you increase the minimum, the maximum and in turn the average. Yes it is harder to get to those extremes, but the average damage you do still increases.

Take for example burning hands which does 3d6, minimum 3, maximum 18, average 10.5
Compare to fireball which does 8d6 minimum 8, maximum 48, average 28



It is also cumbersome and bogs down play. It could be avoided more if you work with less die but that is bad for play time.
That is the nature of high level play, casters can roll 40 dice it's what you accept if you play high level, not that it bothers me I use a dice roller.

Amnoriath
2016-05-01, 11:12 AM
Ok. That isn't remotely relevant to the discussion. The question is whether my class balances against other rogues.


By level 9 it is easy for a rogue to have 20 dex and 14 str or +5 ~ +2 getting rid of disadvantage is worth a +5 making it worthwhile. Ow and lets not forget that disadvantage would take away sneak attack.
He's a pirate, his purpose is to shoot and threaten people.


When you add more dice you increase the minimum, the maximum and in turn the average. Yes it is harder to get to those extremes, but the average damage you do still increases.

Take for example burning hands which does 3d6, minimum 3, maximum 18, average 10.5
Compare to fireball which does 8d6 minimum 8, maximum 48, average 28



That is the nature of high level play, casters can roll 40 dice it's what you accept if you play high level, not that it bothers me I use a dice roller.

1. It's relevant in pointing out that at least it at some point rewarded you with what you were doing. Yours though doesn't as it doesn't increase the outcome of using intimidate while forcing to use your precious ASI's for situational benefits which are remedied by parts of feats that can be far more easily reskinned.
2. Again a feat is better and that rogue would likely not have a feat or good mentals when Wisdom is arguably among the best ability scores to have. I have pointed out before that prioritizing strength on a non-heavy armor build yields a 2 ASI deficit vs. a Dex based build. Your argument only makes sense if strength isn't a priority in which the benefit it yields is also smaller and not even as good as part of a feat.
3. So does any scary in your face type character in your setting. How does that make it a Buccaneer?
4. You know exactly the context from which I am was drawing my point both from your sub-class and your reply. Your example is entirely irrelevant because you know ought to know for a fact I talking about using more smaller dice that equals the same maximum.
5. Once a day assuming they always use Meteor Storm and they always use high slots for evocation or the like. This would be going on every time sneak attack comes up.

Amnoriath
2016-05-01, 11:34 AM
As for other Rogues, A thief gets another action option to consider as a bonus action that could likely change a battle almost as much as a spell or attack action as well as a climb speed. An assassin gets two proficiencies and a major surprise round damage boost(assuming they surprise others). An Arcane Trickster not only has spells but more uses of mage hand. Later a Thief can pretty much succeed on any stealth roll as long as they take the time and use any item they wish. An assassin can be anybody that is within reason given they take the time to plan. Than the Arcane Trickster can get do even more things with mage hand(including advantage on attack rolls) as well as inflict disadvantage on saves with its spells by hiding. Finally a Thief gets an extra turn and an extra sneak attack. An assassin can virtually kill off any lower level opponents instantly even if they don't fail the save using the same conditions. Then the Arcane Trickster can have a free spell by taking away others while ignoring the effects once a day. If they can cast it they can use any time like ones they know. All in all your sub-class has no scenario changing capability or a large set of passives to mitigate your incentive while every other sub-class does with no such incentive.

Final Hyena
2016-05-01, 11:35 AM
1. It's relevant in pointing out that at least it at some point rewarded you with what you were doing. Yours though doesn't as it doesn't increase the outcome of using intimidate while forcing to use your precious ASI's for situational benefits which are remedied by parts of feats that can be far more easily reskinned.
As I stated before this class makes strength a secondary stat, it doesn't make it superior than charisma just an alternative to fit the theme.


2. Again a feat is better and that rogue would likely not have a feat or good mentals when Wisdom is arguably among the best ability scores to have. I have pointed out before that prioritizing strength on a non-heavy armor build yields a 2 ASI deficit vs. a Dex based build. Your argument only makes sense if strength isn't a priority in which the benefit it yields is also smaller and not even as good as part of a feat.
Again a feat is better than what? There is no rogue archetype that gives you feats. And we have never discussed feats in this thread before.
As I stated before strength is only a secondary stat.


3. So does any scary in your face type character in your setting. How does that make it a Buccaneer?
He is a rogue with decent strength, a focus on intimidation and can get close quarters with guns, the archetype is also more generally combat centric than most rogue archetypes.


4. You know exactly the context from which I am was drawing my point both from your sub-class and your reply. Your example is entirely irrelevant because you know ought to know for a fact I talking about using more smaller dice that equals the same maximum.

Firstly;
1d6<2d3
3.5<4

Secondly I changed it to 1d8 a while back.


5. Once a day assuming they always use Meteor Storm and they always use high slots for evocation or the like. This would be going on every time sneak attack comes up.


That is the nature of high level play.

Unless future comments discuss how class features are too strong/weak in comparison to existing rogue archetypes or if you don't bother to do basic maths I'm ignoring them.

Amnoriath
2016-05-01, 11:47 AM
As I stated before this class makes strength a secondary stat, it doesn't make it superior than charisma just an alternative to fit the theme.


Again a feat is better than what? There is no rogue archetype that gives you feats. And we have never discussed feats in this thread before.
As I stated before strength is only a secondary stat.


He is a rogue with decent strength, a focus on intimidation and can get close quarters with guns, the archetype is also more generally combat centric than most rogue archetypes.



Firstly;
1d6<2d3
3.5<4

Secondly I changed it to 1d8 a while back.





Unless future comments discuss how class features are too strong/weak in comparison to existing rogue archetypes or if you don't bother to do basic maths I'm ignoring them.
1. And my point is that by relegating it to a small stat it yields less benefit than part of a feat.
2. But any rogue can take a feat and if they are using homebrew it is very likely feats are in play.
3. But how is that a Buccaneer? It can be called anything that I described before.
4. You are projecting from a use of a program and a simple average of the result of the reduced die set but not from what a lot of others have to deal with when using physical dice.
5. Then you need to specify it before when you are still defending your previous ability.
6. I have by pointing out how it forces you to use 1/3 of your ability score resources(assuming they at least have medium armor proficiency) and if you don't prioritize it can't even compare to a Dex. based rogue with a feat. It ought to be intuitive in building the mechanics of a character.