Rogue stealth

[Ketiara]

I have some difficulties with grasping the rogues stealth, to get advantage to sneak ability.

First of all, its a lvl 19 wood elf rogue. And as a woodelf she is able to hide in lightly obscured conditions (wood, nature) Im my mind that doesnt add urban, dungeons stuff like that. (but correct me if you disagree).

second, the entire hiding game seem really rough, as in not smooth and elegant. Example: My rogue want to target a caster that has the fighter locked down, so no melee in range of baddie. There's a few tables and chairs in the room but other than that theres only the stairwell. I rule no hiding behind an obstacle thats not full cover, tables chairs, pots and plants etc. (again disagree but explain please)

Now to get the hidden status the rogue move down the stairs, hide(almost auto success) as a bonus action, and then up the stairs and sneak attack. (I reckon this is how the rules work?) Ive been wondering, if its correct. My objection is, when the rogue move down in line of sight, she isnt hidden anymore and should loose the advantage? eventhough its the same turn? (this isnt my point, but just a point of view)


Now to the point, I feel its an uncool way for the rogue to keep running up and down the stairs to get that advantage, and that after 3 rounds the baddie hasnt caught on and know the rogue will come up the stairs and shoot an arrow... ("I run down the stairs, use my bonus action to hide, rollx +high stealth/success, run back up and attack and sneak") as a DM that same rutine 3-4 times in a row is boring, and I cant imagine how the rogue feels... I dont mind the rogue doing sneak each round, but I would like it to be done in a cooler way, if you know what I mean.

Any ideas or suggestions how to do it cool?

[Hrugner]

The rogue class is balanced around getting its sneak attack most every turn. Challenge the sneak attack too much and the rogue becomes pretty useless. That said:

The nature requirement is any sort of natural phenomena. So rain tall grass and understory elements outside, but fog could come up in a city or dungeon as could overgrown areas in the environment. It's the obscuring element that needs to be natural not the location.

If you are ruling that the character needs to remain behind total cover in order to remain hidden, then sneaking becomes entirely pointless. You are already completely hidden when behind total cover and wouldn't even need to hide if you could shoot through walls. When they come out of hiding to shoot they are hidden for the purpose of that shot at the very least.

The rogue is stuck stupidly popping up and down on the stairs due to no other cover in the room working due to your ruling that total cover is required. I recommend the baddie ducking out of sight while the rogue is down the stairs as neither of them can see one another at that point. With the baddie using cover or distance, he should be able to lure the rogue into the room and get between him and the exit.

So, kite the rogue or force him to kite.

[SharkForce]

your rogue probably can't roll less than 21 on a stealth check. if expertise in stealth, 27.

the enemy can expect them all they want. if they aren't as awesome at perception as the rogue is at stealth, the rogue succeeds. they're just that good. just like a highly skilled warrior will consistently be able to land attacks on a target unless that target is equally skilled in their own way. the target never just gets to say "oh, but i'm expecting you to try that" and make the warrior automatically fail. neither should a person trying to spot a sneaking rogue.

it is important that you resist the temptation to decide that a level 19 character is simply not allowed to be awesome.

[Tanarii]

A hidden creature can't be pinpointed. That doesn't mean the opponent doesn't know where they last were. They know where they last saw them, and where the attacks have been coming from.

Also, can't the rogue just choose a target adjacent to one of his allies? Why all the messing around?

[djreynolds]

Flip the equation around.

How does your 5 man party survive in the thieves' den? How do you stop the blindside bandit from getting to your "juicy" wizard?

A rogue is an intelligent combatant, always looking for an opportunity to land his strikes, and sometimes he cannot because the enemy has prepared for the rogue.

The enemy may put his back to the wall to prevent the rogue from attacking him, and now he has nowhere to run from that crazed barbarian or the wizard's fireball. The fear of the rogue, set that up. If you are fighting a glaive wielding paladin, you may spread out and now the rogue can hide and pick off people unaware. The fear of the polearm master set that up.

If you cannot, as a rogue, get to the wizard in the back. Let him see you trying to get there, let him see you attempt to hide or leave the party. Because now the attention is taken away from the other team members.

A sniper just has to fire a shot, even missing will put the enemy on guard for the possibility of being shot and will change their tactics.

So the rogue comes to the party, we see him attempt to hide or move off to the stair case. Not everyone has a high enough passive perception check to know where that rogue is. It will take you an action in combat to roll a real perception check. The rogue has just done his job, if anyone of those enemy did that.

Perhaps the rogue just goes to the stair case, but stays put and hides. Perhaps the wizard calls for one of the fighters to guard his blind side while he casts because he thinks the rogue is trying to circle around, a hole is now created in their defense that can now be exploited.

Just like a wizard's presence may force enemy to spread out, a rogue can make enemy close ranks.

[NewDM]

First let's review the rules on Stealth:

"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence. You can't hide from a creature that can see you. and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet. In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5.
For example, if a 1st level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14. What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8."

Just looking at that we can see that the moment they come back up the stairs they are immediately seen by the target. The real question is what does 'discovered' mean? If it means you know generally where they are, then going up and down the stairs doesn't help at all. Not only that but the Rogue has to beat Passive Perception, which is 10 + Wisdom Modifier + Proficiency bonus (or in the case of a monster, its Passive Perception score).

Lets see what chapter 8 has to say about lightly or heavily obscured areas:

"In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) cheeks that rely on sight. A heavily obscured area such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage blocks vision entirely. A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)."

So the chairs and tables might be considered a lightly obscured area.

No where do the rules state that you need heavy obscurement to hide. I guess it implies it as you can still see someone that is lightly obscured. How is the lighting? If its dim light and there are tables and chairs, you might upgrade them to heavy obscurement. How about if the rogue knocks a table onto its side and falls prone behind it? That might count for a single use, of course if the enemy knows where you are, then the moment you pop your ranged weapon from behind the obstruction you are no longer hiding or in stealth.

Basically the rogue is unable to stealth in your situation unless you are allowing for it using the: "However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen."

So if they party is on the opposite side of the stairway, it might allow a sneak attack. However if the creature is even remotely intelligent it will maneuver to where it can see the stairway on its next turn. If a melee character engages the creature, then the rogue can stand back and get sneak attack all day.