The OP rogue

[mgshamster]

A just-for-fun thought exercise.

What would you do to make the rogue the most over-powered class in the game?

Right now (and traditionally), wizards and other 9th levels casters are considered the most powerful classes sheerly due to their flexibility and options from spells.

What kind of changes would you make to the rogue to make them the most powerful class? Preferably something other than "just give them spells." Let's be creative!

[Gastronomie]

Give them three bonus actions every turn.

[Giant2005]

Give them DM powers.

[Slipperychicken]

What would you do to make the rogue the most over-powered class in the game?

Their sneak attack has no restrictions and automatically kills the creatures targeted (or destroys the object targeted), with no rolls required because the rogue exploited a special opportunity that no-one else could have predicted. The rogue can target any number of creatures with his sneak attack whenever he wants, and his attacks have no range or targeting limitation whatsoever.

The rogue can be anywhere at anytime. He may spend 5 feet of movement to disappear and instantly reappear anywhere within one mile. He can appear anywhere he wants to be by disappearing for one minute and reappearing in the target location.

The rogue can do whatever he wants. NPCs react how the rogue want them to, because the rogue is a subtle and cunning manipulator.

All rogues have a network of spies who can give him any information they ever want or need. This means the rogue knows anything and everything. The rogue's own subterfuge could create the same effect, but the rogue is a busy person with no time for such petty cat-and-mouse games.

The rogue cannot be hit by attacks, because he is simply too fast. Similarly, he does not ever fail saving throws because he is too clever for them. Whenever the rogue would be reduced to 0 hit points, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from acting or suffer an effect he does not want to take on, he can choose not to be because such pathetic obstacles cannot impede him.

If the rogue wishes to hide, he cannot be found unless he wants to be found. The rogue does not leave tracks or traces of his presence of any kind unless he wants to. The rogue is aware of all divination spells and similar effects that may target him (as well as the position and appearance of their users), and may instantly misdirect them to show the user whatever the rogue wants them to see. The rogue can even use his sneak attack through such an effect targeting him, instantly slaying the user.

[Kane0]

- more attacks and damage options. Top damage output here we come. Dont forget some AoE capability
- more mobility options. Stealing things from the monk would be good for this
- healing and dealing with conditions. UA ranger salves are a good start
- something to do with your concentration, ideally some buff or debuff options
- lastly you need to warp reality. The infamous roguespace is a great way to go about it without just ripping off magic. Use it to teleport, trap others, sense what you usually cannot, grasp the truths of other realities, etc

[Hrugner]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly. The top power level is normally reserved for caster due to flexibility and real world effects. Unless you want to let rogues steal souls out of people's chests and haggle the dead away from the reapers clutches you're sort of stuck with a mundane power sphere for rogues.

If it's just combat power, change their 1 per round reaction to 1 per turn and let sneak attack work with any sort of attack.

[Shining Wrath]

There's some spells that are so OP that it's hard for any mundane to match them no matter what. So many of the 9th level spells, starting with Wish, are gone.

Then I'd let them develop expertise in a selected weapon, and add that expertise (2xproficiency) to damage. 20th level rogue adding +12 to short sword attack rolls and damage is pretty nasty.

Also I'd take a page from 3.5 and let them use a magical item that requires attunement by another class.

Extra bonus actions per round as they level up.

[Gtdead]

Overpowered is too broad. There is "Broken" overpowered which usually means "too good at a single thing, that he can use it to overpower most challenges", there is "master of everything" overpowered, which is the fun kind of overpowered because he doesn't have to be broken. Instead he can shine at everything. I'm going to go with the second type here.

I'd take anything that Arcane Trickster gives him and meld it into the main chassis.

Rogue can't AoE -> Arcane Trickster can -> Give him an ability that deals about the same damage, something like Hunter's Volley with half Sneak attack bonus?
Rogue has limited attacks and movement -> Arcane Trickster can haste himself -> Add a second attack and double the movement speed. I'd raise AC too.
Rogue doesn't have huge AC -> Arcane Trickster can use Shield -> Allow the Rogue to raise his AC through reaction.

Etc.

Then I'd create a mechanic similar to UA's Mystic, allowing the Rogue to change abilities on the spot. Since we want OP, I'd let him change and at will with a free action.
To be honest this is kind of cheating since the OP said to "not add spells". I just create physical versions of the most important spells and allow him to use them all together with minimal constraints.

But really, mundane playstyle is too limited and DnD just doesn't seem capable of supporting a more complex style for them. It's either attack, hit n hide, or grapple. Maneuvers are boring. Just reflavored "Called Shots" and the worst part is that most of them are borderline useless. Precision strike is the most efficient. Everything else is situational.

[mgshamster]

Overpowered is too broad. There is "Broken" overpowered which usually means "too good at a single thing, that he can use it to overpower most challenges", there is "master of everything" overpowered, which is the fun kind of overpowered because he doesn't have to be broken. Instead he can shine at everything. I'm going to go with the second type here.

I'd take anything that Arcane Trickster gives him and meld it into the main chassis.

Rogue can't AoE -> Arcane Trickster can -> Give him an ability that deals about the same damage, something like Hunter's Volley with half Sneak attack bonus?
Rogue has limited attacks and movement -> Arcane Trickster can haste himself -> Add a second attack and double the movement speed. I'd raise AC too.
Rogue doesn't have huge AC -> Arcane Trickster can use Shield -> Allow the Rogue to raise his AC through reaction.

Etc.

Then I'd create a mechanic similar to UA's Mystic, allowing the Rogue to change abilities on the spot. Since we want OP, I'd let him change and at will with a free action.
To be honest this is kind of cheating since the OP said to "not add spells". I just create physical versions of the most important spells and allow him to use them all together with minimal constraints.

Ooo, I like your ideas.

As for the "no spells" thing, when I presented this idea to a friend, their response was "make them a 9th level caster." That just seemed so boring, so I was hoping for more creative ideas. Like yours!


But really, mundane playstyle is too limited and DnD just doesn't seem capable of supporting a more complex style for them. It's either attack, hit n hide, or grapple. Maneuvers are boring. Just reflavored "Called Shots" and the worst part is that most of them are borderline useless. Precision strike is the most efficient. Everything else is situational.

Tome of Battle seemed to do a really good job making martial maneuvers on par with spells (at least for low-mid level range, I never checked high level). Although, it was mostly combat oriented and didn't provide the same kind of OoC utility that general spells do.

[JoeJ]

Give them Expertise on all ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.

[Gtdead]

Ooo, I like your ideas.

As for the "no spells" thing, when I presented this idea to a friend, their response was "make them a 9th level caster." That just seemed so boring, so I was hoping for more creative ideas. Like yours!



Tome of Battle seemed to do a really good job making martial maneuvers on par with spells (at least for low-mid level range, I never checked high level). Although, it was mostly combat oriented and didn't provide the same kind of OoC utility that general spells do.

Thank you. I'm glad you like them.
As far as ToB goes, well it always seems to me like too much reading just to create a more fun fighter ;p . I have minimal experience with it, but from what little I remember, it seems like 5e incorporated a lot of that logic into the design of melee classes in 5e. I do remember some abilities that allowed you to summon a flanker, or move after hit, etc, and it reminds me the design of AT's Mage hand, Paladin's relentless avenger. 3.5e had more numerical and passive bonuses. 5e has more situational and active bonuses.

[bid]

OP damage:
- SA once per target
- extra attack
(3 attacks per turn, might SA 3 different targets)

OP checks:
- more expertise
- more proficiencies
(lore can get 8 skills, unfair!)

OP spell-like:
- steal eldritch invocations
- steal disciple of the elements (j/k?)
(shadow step + one with shadow would make an OP archetype)

[RickAllison]

Some ideas that could help, but aren't OP on their own:

Reactive ability. One reaction per turn. Reinforces the idea that one should never turn their back on a rogue.

More of an archetypal thing, but the ability to wield a certain kind of weapon with finesse. Open up polearms and other styles for abuse.

Sabotage. Much like how rogues can reliably use their skills, it would be great to have a negative ability to inflict on others (so never roll more than 11).

[OldTrees1]

A just-for-fun thought exercise.

What would you do to make the rogue the most over-powered class in the game?

What kind of changes would you make to the rogue to make them the most powerful class? Preferably something other than "just give them spells." Let's be creative!

Well what is the Rogue as of now?
They get the most skills, have reliable skill use and their talent for that skill is about 50% higher than anyone else (except for the roguish Bard).

So to make Rogues over-powered all you would need to do is make skill use a dominating part of the game. For example: "Every action, even spellcasting, has an associated skill check". Given bounded accuracy, the Rogue would quickly be preforming at roughly twice the level of anyone else(excluding Bards).

[Fable Wright]

I'd just make one little change:

They're allowed to steal a monster's stats and/or attacks. They can steal the Balor's Strength, leaving their previous score behind. They could loot the Archmage's spells per day and spells known, as long as they left behind any spellcasting they had before. They could steal the Vampire's control of their spawn, so long as they give up any existing minions in exchange.

Basically, I would turn the Rogue into an Illithid Savant, from 3.5e. I hear that was a pretty powerful class, all told.

[mgshamster]

I'd just make one little change:

They're allowed to steal a monster's stats and/or attacks. They can steal the Balor's Strength, leaving their previous score behind. They could loot the Archmage's spells per day and spells known, as long as they left behind any spellcasting they had before. They could steal the Vampire's control of their spawn, so long as they give up any existing minions in exchange.

Basically, I would turn the Rogue into an Illithid Savant, from 3.5e. I hear that was a pretty powerful class, all told.

That is one of the coolest ideas I've seen in some time. Thanks!

[JohnStone]

well Alchemy could work as well...

Poisons that inflict debilitating conditions.
Potions that grant spell like buffs

basically give them pathfinder alchemist powers without taking their rogue stuff.

Also as someone mentioned manipulate "Roguespace" the plane that allows uncanny dodge and evasion.

[MaxWilson]

A just-for-fun thought exercise.

What would you do to make the rogue the most over-powered class in the game?

Right now (and traditionally), wizards and other 9th levels casters are considered the most powerful classes sheerly due to their flexibility and options from spells.

What kind of changes would you make to the rogue to make them the most powerful class? Preferably something other than "just give them spells." Let's be creative!

Interpret all the PHB abilities very permissively and literally. A poster mentioned letting the Rogue "steal" non-physical qualities like Strength; then you just let them Hide anywhere as long as they beat the enemy's passive Perception ("I Hide in your pocket with my bonus action") and use Deception expertise to warp peoples' perceptions of reality ("I persuade you that you are your own grandpa so you commit suicide out of shame") and Persuasion expertise to make instant friends a la the Diplomacy cheese noted here (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy-design.html). Allow players to do completely ridonculous things with skills as long as they beat DC 25-30.

Rogues and Lore Bards will be the most broken classes in the game, followed by Druids.

[Jamesps]

Interpret all the PHB abilities very permissively and literally. A poster mentioned letting the Rogue "steal" non-physical qualities like Strength; then you just let them Hide anywhere as long as they beat the enemy's passive Perception ("I Hide in your pocket with my bonus action") and use Deception expertise to warp peoples' perceptions of reality ("I persuade you that you are your own grandpa so you commit suicide out of shame") and Persuasion expertise to make instant friends a la the Diplomacy cheese noted here (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/diplomacy-design.html). Allow players to do completely ridonculous things with skills as long as they beat DC 25-30.

Rogues and Lore Bards will be the most broken classes in the game, followed by Druids.

This would be the most thematic way to do it. Allowing Rogues (or anyone) to do Wish level effects with DC 35 ability checks would be the most straightforward and thematic approach. You can only accomplish this with expertise or guidance and a high roll... which a 20th level rogue can roll at will 3/day.