So we are finally playing a drow campaign...

[Willie the Duck]

We are going to play a drow campaign. Everyone will be a drow (that LA is assumed in all builds). We'll be using the Underdark sourcebook, the Drow of the Underdark sourcebook, as well as most of the FR books, complete series, and such. What are the interesting things that people can do in this situation, both in terms of power and in fun? Does anyone have any favorite builds, feats, ideas, etc.?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

[Troacctid]

Demonbinder is a fun Warlock build.

[Belzyk]

Duel wield scimitars and be a ranger with a magical item that summons your pet panther......?

[Honest Tiefling]

Since you are using Forgotten Realms, I assume full sexism in force? In which case, are you playing a male or a female? If I recall, there are some drow only classes, but I don't ever recall the divine ones being mentioned much.

[Âmesang]

To be fair, I believe their culture is also present in WORLD OF GREYHAWK®. :smalltongue:

[Willie the Duck]

Any gender, any class. Party of four, and yes I've heard all the Drizzt jokes.

[Belzyk]

Any gender, any class. Party of four, and yes I've heard all the Drizzt jokes.

<3 I had to. But seriously if yaw playing a a drow game and using forgotten realms males shouldn't be allowed as clerics and so forth or yaw playing a game and all 4 of yae just so happen to be drow. Lolth under no circumstance would ever give clerical powers to male drow and would go out of her way to kill male drow who who found a way to cheat clerical powers.

[gorfnab]

You can do some interesting things with Drow SLA's (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5111.0)

[Someonelse]

Driders! I love driders!
They're in Savage Species

[Willie the Duck]

Interesting ideas. Anyone think of any builds or feats that they'd enjoy or have enjoyed in underdark centric campaigns?

[Belzyk]

Interesting ideas. Anyone think of any builds or feats that they'd enjoy or have enjoyed in underdark centric campaigns?

Well I mean if there sent gender restrictions it's any old game. A pure drow campaign your leards gonna be a female loth cleric. Drivers will be hated trash by everyone because they are cursed. There will be no druids and loth will have a lot of influence. I think there is only 1non loth city in the under dark

[Honest Tiefling]

<3 I had to. But seriously if yaw playing a a drow game and using forgotten realms males shouldn't be allowed as clerics and so forth or yaw playing a game and all 4 of yae just so happen to be drow. Lolth under no circumstance would ever give clerical powers to male drow and would go out of her way to kill male drow who who found a way to cheat clerical powers.

Not entirely correct. I believe that the followers of Selvetarm got spells and were tolerated as essentially warpriests that worked for Lolth in the Forgotten Realms. Or the entire party could agree to go with another god like Kiranslee or Vhearun...

[Kish]

<3 I had to. But seriously if yaw playing a a drow game and using forgotten realms males shouldn't be allowed as clerics and so forth or yaw playing a game and all 4 of yae just so happen to be drow. Lolth under no circumstance would ever give clerical powers to male drow and would go out of her way to kill male drow who who found a way to cheat clerical powers.
Not every drow city is Menzoberranzan and not every drow group is Lolth loyalists. Maybe they're playing four Vhaeraun worshipers.

[Belzyk]

Not entirely correct. I believe that the followers of Selvetarm got spells and were tolerated as essentially warpriests that worked for Lolth in the Forgotten Realms. Or the entire party could agree to go with another god like Kiranslee or Vhearun...

Thats deadly as drow though. But would be fun. XD have entire drow cities out for your head.. I'd myself play a loth touched deep drow cleric

[Kish]

Two l's in Lolth. Placement optional (some drow apparently spell it Lloth), but two mandatory.

There are, in fact, multiple cities dedicated to non-Lolth drow gods, contrary to your earlier assertion. This isn't 4ed-or-later.

[Belzyk]

Two l's in Lolth. Placement optional (some drow apparently spell it Lloth), but two mandatory.

And remember your evillll with a Capitol E

[Honest Tiefling]

Thats deadly as drow though. But would be fun. XD have entire drow cities out for your head.. I'd myself play a loth touched deep drow cleric

Being drow itself is deadly. But being a part of a cult like those two would give the party slightly less reason to backstab each other and work together. As for that template, in FR it's actually often applied to male clerics of Selvetarm, so you could be a male priest with that.

Also, what the heck is a Deep Drow?

[Belzyk]

Also if your the dm considering forcing all female characters to take at least 1 level of cleric. But that's just personal preference. Ya know lore reasons

[Bullet06320]

<3 I had to. But seriously if yaw playing a a drow game and using forgotten realms males shouldn't be allowed as clerics and so forth or yaw playing a game and all 4 of yae just so happen to be drow. Lolth under no circumstance would ever give clerical powers to male drow and would go out of her way to kill male drow who who found a way to cheat clerical powers.

The Silent Blade and Servant of the Shard novels

Rai'gy Bondalek is a former high priest of Lolth from the city of Ched Nasad. A member of a more moderate sect of the Spider Queen that allows male clerics, he was ousted in a coup instigated by Jarlaxle, and he later joined Bregan D'Aerthe.

so it is possible to have male clerics, but its not common in most drow societies, but the history of Ched Nasad is unique in that the men over threw the females as the ruling class, and Loth approves, she is a creature of chaos after all

[Belzyk]

The Silent Blade and Servant of the Shard novels

Rai'gy Bondalek is a former high priest of Lolth from the city of Ched Nasad. A member of a more moderate sect of the Spider Queen that allows male clerics, he was ousted in a coup instigated by Jarlaxle, and he later joined Bregan D'Aerthe.

so it is possible to have male clerics, but its not common in most drow societies, but the history of Ched Nasad is unique in that the men over threw the females as the ruling class, and Loth approves, she is a creature of chaos after all
I know I couldn't remember what books though. Thank you!

[Bullet06320]

lol, no worries, I had to look up which books it was too

[Kish]

Also if your the dm considering forcing all female characters to take at least 1 level of cleric. But that's just personal preference. Ya know lore reasons
You mean "Menzoberranzan-specific didn't-read-even-Salvatore's-novels-closely reasons."

[Belzyk]

lol, no worries, I had to look up which books it was too

Its been so long Lol. Just some stuff sticks over time.

[Keltest]

You mean "Menzoberranzan-specific didn't-read-even-Salvatore's-novels-closely reasons."

While I haven't read the non-story sourcebooks, my impression is that Menzoberranzan is far closer to the rule than the exception as far as Drow society goes.

Having said that, consider what social class your PCs are from. A noble female is unlikely to get away without at least preliminary clerical training, but a drow commoner could easily avoid that level of scrutiny.

[Belzyk]

You mean "Menzoberranzan-specific didn't-read-even-Salvatore's-novels-closely reasons."

I own all of Salvatore's novels even his non DnD books. Its just some things stick out more then others. His Drizzit series is his most memorable even though Drizzit started out as a side character in icewind dale

For that fact the most prominent drow book in 3.5 even puts lolth as the single most important thing in drow community. Not to mention you think drow you think lolth

[illyahr]

I played a the drider monster class from Savage Species and then took the Knight class. I loaded down with "mounted combat" feats since my DM ruled they were valid for a drider. So lance, trample, ride-by attack, a feat that let me change direction once per charge, and a feat that let me charge over rough terrain (or something). Ever have a spider monster charge you while it was hanging from the ceiling? Good times. :smallbiggrin:

[Keltest]

I played a the drider monster class from Savage Species and then took the Knight class. I loaded down with "mounted combat" feats since my DM ruled they were valid for a drider. So lance, trample, ride-by attack, a feat that let me change direction once per charge, and a feat that let me charge over rough terrain (or something). Ever have a spider monster charge you while it was hanging from the ceiling? Good times. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, yes. It was a biiiig dang spider chasing us through Drow caves after we disrupted a ritual to summon Lolth. We were riding pegasi because why not. We probably would have been eaten horribly (or sacrificed, in my case, because I was supposed to be the sacrifice that summoned Lolth), except wall of force counters charging.

[Kish]

I own all of Salvatore's novels even his non DnD books. Its just some things stick out more then others. His Drizzit series is his most memorable even though Drizzit started out as a side character in icewind dale

For that fact the most prominent drow book in 3.5 even puts lolth as the single most important thing in drow community. Not to mention you think drow you think lolth
Again, Menzoberranzan=/=drow society. And "House Do'Urden" really =/=drow society.

To be more explicit about the "mandatory cleric level" thing (I've already addressed the automatic obsessive Lolth worship thing, and see no point to repeating myself): No, not every female drow is a priest by a very long shot. Not even every noble female drow in Menzoberranzan (it's rare for a Matron Mother to have so many more daughters than sons that she goes, "You know, I actually need another wizard more than I need another high priestess, so this one's going to Sorcere rather than Arach-Tinilith" but "rare" does not mean impossible, nor forbidden, nor unknown).

[Belzyk]

Again, Menzoberranzan=/=drow society. And "House Do'Urden" really =/=drow society.

To be more explicit about the "mandatory cleric level" thing (I've already addressed the automatic obsessive Lolth worship thing, and see no point to repeating myself): No, not every female drow is a priest by a very long shot. Not even every noble female drow in Menzoberranzan (it's rare for a Matron Mother to have so many more daughters than sons that she goes, "You know, I actually need another wizard more than I need another high priestess, so this one's going to Sorcere rather than Arach-Tinilith" but "rare" does not mean impossible, nor forbidden, nor unknown).

All I'm saying is don't assume I don't what I'm talking about. I know I know what your trying to say. Its just for luls man. I personally wouldn't let any.any of my players play a female drow without having cleric levels. Because it's so rare that a female drow isn't a cleric that if I have a drow game going my players ain't that rare female becausd they are gonna be part of a house in which case every female is a cleric. And the ones who aren't are drider. I been cracking drow jokes since I first posted in this post man. Also just offering my personal insight is all.

[Keltest]

Again, Menzoberranzan=/=drow society. And "House Do'Urden" really =/=drow society.

To be more explicit about the "mandatory cleric level" thing (I've already addressed the automatic obsessive Lolth worship thing, and see no point to repeating myself): No, not every female drow is a priest by a very long shot. Not even every noble female drow in Menzoberranzan (it's rare for a Matron Mother to have so many more daughters than sons that she goes, "You know, I actually need another wizard more than I need another high priestess, so this one's going to Sorcere rather than Arach-Tinilith" but "rare" does not mean impossible, nor forbidden, nor unknown).

An education at the Academy includes at least an introduction into the other disciplines, enough for Drizzt to know the name of a major demon many years after he left Menzoberranzan, and identify it from a considerable distance. A single level in cleric is not an unreasonable mechanical outcome of such an education for a noble female.

[Honest Tiefling]

Uh, I'd like to point out that we don't know if the DM has read the novels or not. The novels could be the epitome of drow culture that clearly explains everything, but if the DM isn't using them then it's a bit of a moot point.

Maybe we should ask the OP if he's got any insight as to the rules the DM is using.

[Belzyk]

Uh, I'd like to point out that we don't know if the DM has read the novels or not. The novels could be the epitome of drow culture that clearly explains everything, but if the DM isn't using them then it's a bit of a moot point.

Maybe we should ask the OP if he's got any insight as to the rules the DM is using.

Ehh drow of the underdark also epitomize drow the same way the books do. And it's 3.5s premire drow book I'd also like to recommend their dm to read drow of the under dark. it has a lot of good stuff for drow campaign

[ATHATH]

I'm just dropping in here to say that there is an online, official Drider template. It doesn't have a listed LA, but it does have an explicitly stated method of acquisition.

[Âmesang]

Don't forget that Eclavdra of Erelhei-Cinlu is detailed on page 306 of the Epic Level Handbook. Not that you'd necessarily reach that level, but I get a big smile at the thought of her shadow walking to Faerûn and "cleaning house." :smalltongue:

[Willie the Duck]

Ehh drow of the underdark also epitomize drow the same way the books do. And it's 3.5s premire drow book I'd also like to recommend their dm to read drow of the under dark. it has a lot of good stuff for drow campaign

The DM does have that book, and I assume has read it. The DM is unlikely to force the players to play a specific class just because of the gender they want to play. That said, he does want to play drow as drow (however he thinks of that). I suspect there are no male clerics of Lolth (Favored souls? y/n?), and that most female drow with PC class levels will have a level of cleric.

I'm glad to hear that Drow of the Underdark has a lot of good stuff. What are some? Anything anyone has enjoyed using. I'm looking for powerful, flavorful, or just usable.

The quick glance I've given at the new crunchy material has been mixed. Lots of stuff to turn your 1/day spells into 2-3 times/day and add some additional effects. It seems... superfluous. Turning into spiders as a druid, or having vermin animal companions is certainly flavorful and appropriate.

Note, as well as being drow, this campaign focuses on being in the Underdark, so there's undoubtedly stuff in Underdark, Races of Stone, Dungeonscape, etc. that might be usable.

I'm guessing that an Underdark campaign with lots of drow backstabbery, etc. might make skill-based characters, interesting builds, and such more enticing that the standard batman wizard and CoDzilla. Anyone found that to be true? If so, what did you do/play?

[Willie the Duck]

And there definitely should be male clerics of Vhaeraun, right? He's the god of male drow.

[atemu1234]

Uh, I'd like to point out that we don't know if the DM has read the novels or not. The novels could be the epitome of drow culture that clearly explains everything, but if the DM isn't using them then it's a bit of a moot point.

Maybe we should ask the OP if he's got any insight as to the rules the DM is using.

The novels really shouldn't be the end-all, be-all of the discussion on drow culture. Depending on how you make it, it can be much less cut-and-dry than that. I'm partial to War of the Spider Queen for a little bit more info on how society effects the lower echelons of Drow society. Too much focuses on solely nobility.

[Willie the Duck]

I think the definitive reference for this campaign would be the 2e version of Drow of the Underdark, with religious information taken from 2e Demihuman Dieties.

[KillingAScarab]

And there definitely should be male clerics of Vhaeraun, right? He's the god of male drow.Faiths and Pantheons is a 3.0 book, but it is in my possession. According to that, Vhaeraun's clergy is nearly exclusively male, but are encouraged to disguise their allegiance in drow communities. It also claims every cleric tries to establish drow communities on the surface (half-drow count), but that's yet another thing which I find difficult to believe with two skill points per level. Also, he's a thievery god, so of course thieves know how to set up a lasting colonization project.

[Willie the Duck]

but that's yet another thing which I find difficult to believe with two skill points per level.

A significant problem. I've gone back and forth on skills in general. I really think that gather info and bluff and diplomacy (and a boatload of other skills) may well come into play. Yet it is hard play a skillmonkey character in the underdark (lots of creatures that ignore tactical damage, lots of need for high fort and will saves). Some build ideas that I've had are:

Rogue/cloistered cleric/black-flame zealot (of Lolth or Vhaeraun? I guess it sort of works...) for decent sneak attack, okay spells, and great skills, but crap attack and hp.

Scout3/RangerX with Swift Hunter for good bab, good skills, and can skirmish attack undead, but low armor and hp for a martial build

Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter 2/ Favored Soul X for great saves, good combat, okay spells, cha synergy, and tremorsense drow ACF but no skills except diplomacy and a smattering of knowledge: arcana and religion

Rogue or bard1/Cleric5/Nightcloak for saves, spells, and cool evil/darkness powers, and diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive.

Some combo of Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter, fighter and ranger and then Pious Templer for good saves, mettle, decent combat, and an good concept for religious male.

Ranger1/Wizard or Bard 4/Ur Priest2/Mystic Theurge. Savage Bard would also work, but I don't know quite how to justify it. Ur priest in FR can also be a worshipper of a dead god, hoping to resurrect them. Depending on when the DM sets it, there are plenty of dead drow gods to choose from.

Good old Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight for Good saves, AC, spells, Cha Synergy, but no skills to speak of.

Very simple Gish builds like Battle Sorcerer or Fighter6/Wizard14 with Armored Mage, Drow Fighter, Dungeon Crasher, and Combat Wizard ACFs for bouncing people off walls, casting (significantly behind the curve) spells in light armor, and fighter feats.

As for concepts, I have a devout female or male holy person(possibly of a dead god, if I do Ur priest); loyal male soldier/stalwart; sneaky, scheming pragmatist; or grizzled, seen-it-all-before survivor. But I'm definitely open to other ideas if people have them. This is new territory for me, and I'd love to hear what others have found fun.

[Willie the Duck]

I think I have my character concept. Starting around the idea of the dead-god Ur priest. My character is a wild preacher (think split the difference between Grigori Rasputin and John the Baptist). Not a priest, more a wild haired madman. He's seen the deaths and rebirths of the drow deities (plus every time Lolth loses an avatar because some group of PCs get run through the Against the Giants modules) and is scared of hellish wrath. He preaches (on the streetcorner, on a soapbox, often to no one) to fear the gods (Lolth in particular). Since that's not entirely against the powers-that-be's goals (they want you to worship Lolth, but fear is good), he's accepted. Some in the power structure might even appreciate him (Rasputin again).

That leads into a savage bard/ ur priest. If the game stays low power, I might stay bard/ur/Mystic theurge. If we go higher power, I'll cheese it a bit with Sublime Chord. Bards rarely shine, but in a situation where you really want to actually have those skill points (social/political backstabbing, surviving in the underdark. Heck, If I roll an 18, I might put it in Int), it starts to look pretty good.

As to levels 1-10, I'm looking at mostly 1-3 level bard spells, and slowly 1-5 cleric spells (and crummy rebuke). What spells am I going to be looking at for when the enemies aren't affected by low level charms and illusions? Bards vs. Undead has always been a weak spot in my knowledge base. Furthermore, what spells should I pick as a bard, given that I have cleric spells? Any suggestions?

[KillingAScarab]

As to levels 1-10, I'm looking at mostly 1-3 level bard spells, and slowly 1-5 cleric spells (and crummy rebuke). What spells am I going to be looking at for when the enemies aren't affected by low level charms and illusions? Bards vs. Undead has always been a weak spot in my knowledge base. Furthermore, what spells should I pick as a bard, given that I have cleric spells? Any suggestions?I could swear there's a bard song feat out there which can cause some damage to undead. Maybe I'm thinking of Neverwinter Nights (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Curse_song)? I know it isn't Pathfinder, that's an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard) where you can affect undead with mind-affecting effects.

[Randomthom]

Demonologist fits the Drow very well too.

Among the powerful houses, with few exceptions, males become wizards or fighters while females become clerics. Outside of the powerful houses women are more free to choose but males are very-much barred from the divine (though there are sects that worship other gods in secret).

My suggestion to players is don't feel that you can't tell a new story but think about how it fits with the existing one. Perhaps you want to play a male cleric who pretends to be a fighter and prays for his spells subtly so as not to draw attention to it. You may wish to play a female wizard who has chosen to pursue the arcane disciplines, thus risking retribution for her snub of the church of Lolth.

Barbarians, bards, druids, and monks are somewhat harder to countenance within known Drow society but could still be managed.
The Drow are still Elves and I can't imagine that music/art is something they have entirely forsaken though what form it might take is certainly open to interpretation.
Regarding barbarians and druids, perhaps a Drow family who fled the city generations ago (escaping slaughter) and have formed a more simple (possibly more neutral) society in the underdark since.
Monks don't seem to fit but might also be a good way to put males into the church of Lolth as bodyguards of the priestesses.

[atemu1234]

Faiths and Pantheons is a 3.0 book, but it is in my possession. According to that, Vhaeraun's clergy is nearly exclusively male, but are encouraged to disguise their allegiance in drow communities. It also claims every cleric tries to establish drow communities on the surface (half-drow count), but that's yet another thing which I find difficult to believe with two skill points per level. Also, he's a thievery god, so of course thieves know how to set up a lasting colonization project.

To be fair, I'd expect most of Vhaeraun's clerics to have originally been rogues of some kind before gaining levels in cleric.

Also, 'try' and 'know how to' are not synonyms :smallbiggrin:.

[RedMage125]

The only potential problem I forsee with a drow campaign is how to keep them from turning on each other for their own benefit. While this is an issue that arises with any "evil campaign", betrayal for gain and survival of the most ruthless, sneaky, and conniving are mainstays of drow culture.

Drow females need not be clerics, or even have one level of cleric, but noble females are more likely to, simply by virtue of the fact that priestesses hold all the clout and authority in their culture. In Menzoberanzan, a male'slave only hope for power and authority is to be an arcane caster, with very few exceptions (Jarlaxle). If your campaign is not in that city, a male may have other options in terms of the kinds of respect and power he could accrue as a member of another class, such as rogue or fighter.
Since you have mentioned that it will be Forgotten Realms, divine classes DO require patron deities. And a male being chosen as a Paladin of Slaughter by Lolth is not outside the realm of possibility. As previously mentioned, males may be clerics of Selvetarm and be accepted by mainstream drow culture.
Druid seems to me the only PHB class that would not make sense in a group of drow. But always remember that story trumps general assumptions. Perhaps a drow that was part of a patrol group got lost in the underdark, and learned to commune with nature to survive, or even harness the power of nature to turn it against underdark threats. Such a druid might still worship Lolth, but would more likely worship Ghaundahar, or even more likely a demon lord like Zuggtmoy. Underdark druids would have affinities for fungi and lichen instead of normal plants.
For background reading, I highly suggest the War of the Spider Queen series, to see how a drow party works together. Even with a common purpose, there is treachery in the interplay between them. Also, Phaeraun is a fascinating character.

[illyahr]

I could swear there's a bard song feat out there which can cause some damage to undead. Maybe I'm thinking of Neverwinter Nights (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Curse_song)? I know it isn't Pathfinder, that's an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/dirge-bard) where you can affect undead with mind-affecting effects.

There is a feat called Requiem from Libris Mortis (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-undead--71/requiem--2431/index.html). Lets you use your bardic music abilities to affect undead, but only for half duration.