Casting Time with Metamagic

[NerdHut]

I have a player that is playing a sorcerer that REALLY loves magic missile optimization. But I've run into a problem with metamagic. He usually applies both Maximize and Empower. In session one, I goofed and allowed him to cast it as a standard action. Since then I've ruled it as a full-round action. But there's one thing itching at the back of my mind. Applying one metamagic extends the casting time. So shouldn't two metamagics extend the casting time more?

So RAW makes it seem like Empowered Maximized Magic Missile should take two rounds to cast. The nice guy in me wants to rule it as one round. But the stickler for the rules in me doesn't want to let this player become too OP. Anyone have recommendations, or examples of how they've ruled it?

[Necroticplague]

Reading the relevenant SRD rules, it seems that the increase is only by one, regardless of how many metamagics are applied.



Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
Empowered Fireball is a metamagiced version of Fireball, so takes a full-round action. Maximized Empowered Fireball is also a metamagiced version of Fireball, so takes a full-round action.

Interestingly, it also appears that this means there isn't an increase in time to apply metamagics to spells that can be cast quicker than a standard action (since the rules for time increase only mention standard action or longer casting times).

[NerdHut]

Interestingly, it also appears that this means there isn't an increase in time to apply metamagics to spells that can be cast quicker than a standard action (since the rules for time increase only mention standard action or longer casting times).

You have a point about metamagic being metamagic no matter how meta'd the magic is. But I have to disagree with the shorter-casting-time spells. I would rule that swift action spells become standard actions. But I'd be unsure about immediate actions.

[Aquillion]

I'm inclined to think that shorter-than-standard-action spells not being affected is a deliberate choice, because most such spells are ones that would become simply useless if their casting time were increased (eg. spells that have to be combined with another action, or spells whose whole purpose is casting them quickly.)

Honestly though the increased casting time was a design mistake. Nothing would terribly break if you removed it entirely (I mean, Sorcerers would become even more powerful, and they're already quite powerful enough compared to non-full-casters; but they'd still be weaker than wizards, so I can't really say it'd break the game.)

So basically, don't worry about it too much. Go with whatever ruling seems most fun (which generally means letting them cast as fast as possible -- especially if all your friend wants to do is metamagic up Magic Missile. That's hardly optimal, so I guarantee you wouldn't run into any problems even if you let him use metamagic for no additional casting time at all.)

[Theobod]

I'm inclined to think that shorter-than-standard-action spells not being affected is a deliberate choice, because most such spells are ones that would become simply useless if their casting time were increased (eg. spells that have to be combined with another action, or spells whose whole purpose is casting them quickly.)

Exactly this. And aye, the rules for casting increase state casting a spell with metamagic increases the time, not increase the time for every metamagic applied, so a FRA from standard only, no matter how much meta they apply.
Also: Point this player to the Force Missile Mage Prestige Class from the Dragon Magazine Compendium. He will love you.:smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

But I have to disagree with the shorter-casting-time spells. I would rule that swift action spells become standard actions. But I'd be unsure about immediate actions.

On what grounds would you rule such? The rules for metamagic increasing casting time (which I quoted previously), only mention two cases: The casting time of the spell is a standard action, or the time is longer than a standard action. It contains no directions for if the casting time does not fall into one of these two categories.

[NerdHut]

Also: Point this player to the Force Missile Mage Prestige Class from the Dragon Magazine Compendium. He will love you.:smallbiggrin:

You see... about that... I would... but he's already planned his entire build around it. :smallbiggrin:

[MisterKaws]

Just give Rapid Metamagic to every sorcerer as a LV1 bonus. Wizards get Scribe Scroll, so I don't see why you couldn't give them a feat that most would take as a feat-tax anyway.

[nedz]

You have a point about metamagic being metamagic no matter how meta'd the magic is. But I have to disagree with the shorter-casting-time spells. I would rule that swift action spells become standard actions. But I'd be unsure about immediate actions.

There are plenty of spells with swift action casting and durations of one round. You have effectively soft-banned ever applying metamagic to any of them since they now no longer work.
Now I'm not sure it's important because I can't think of any situations where you would want to do this, but my experience with this ruleset indicates that we have enough dysfunctions already and this will likely cause a new one.

Immediate action spells can be cast as swift actions instead - they are closely related.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Reading the relevenant SRD rules, it seems that the increase is only by one, regardless of how many metamagics are applied.

Empowered Fireball is a metamagiced version of Fireball, so takes a full-round action. Maximized Empowered Fireball is also a metamagiced version of Fireball, so takes a full-round action.

Interestingly, it also appears that this means there isn't an increase in time to apply metamagics to spells that can be cast quicker than a standard action (since the rules for time increase only mention standard action or longer casting times).

You're ignoring this sentence:


Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

If a metamagicked swift action spell was still swift, that wouldn't be longer than normal. Neither would applying multiple metamagics to a spell be one enhanced by "a" metamagic feat.

You get one and you can't do it to swifts unless you burn a feat on rapid metamagic, spell preparation, or the like.

[atemu1234]

If a metamagicked swift action spell was still swift, that wouldn't be longer than normal. Neither would applying multiple metamagics to a spell be one enhanced by "a" metamagic feat.

You get one and you can't do it to swifts unless you burn a feat on rapid metamagic, spell preparation, or the like.

That line is useless without explanation text. That is the fluff explanation for why some spells will take longer to cast, but without text specifically saying what the new casting time is, it's just another broken mechanic.

[KillingAScarab]

The Rules Compendium specifically mentions multiple metamagic feats. Emphasis is mine.


Spontaneous spellcasters, including those who normally prepare spells but can spontaneously cast particular spells, must take more time to cast a metamagic spell -- a spell enhanced by one or more metamagic feats. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a spontaneous spellcaster. This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time -- the spell takes effect during the same turn that the spellcaster begins casting it. Metamagic spells that have a longer casting time take an extra-full round action to cast spontaneously.

It also looks like you can apply metamagic to cure, inflict or summon nature's ally spells if you're a cleric or a druid. Neat, but less so for the druid in combat stuck casting for an extra round.

That last sentence beginning with "Metamagic" is weird, though.

[Telonius]

I have a player that is playing a sorcerer that REALLY loves magic missile optimization. But I've run into a problem with metamagic. He usually applies both Maximize and Empower. In session one, I goofed and allowed him to cast it as a standard action. Since then I've ruled it as a full-round action. But there's one thing itching at the back of my mind. Applying one metamagic extends the casting time. So shouldn't two metamagics extend the casting time more?

So RAW makes it seem like Empowered Maximized Magic Missile should take two rounds to cast. The nice guy in me wants to rule it as one round. But the stickler for the rules in me doesn't want to let this player become too OP. Anyone have recommendations, or examples of how they've ruled it?

Personally I houserule away the increased time for applying metamagic on spontaneous spells. Sorcerers should be the metamagic specialists, IMO. Slapping some super-cool trick onto a spell, on the fly, seems like something they ought to just be able to do.

[Aquillion]

That line is useless without explanation text. That is the fluff explanation for why some spells will take longer to cast, but without text specifically saying what the new casting time is, it's just another broken mechanic.You can also parse it as meaning "if a spell isn't one of the times listed, it takes notionally longer to cast, but not long enough for it to have any mechanical impact."

So you need a few more words to cast a shorter-than-standard-action spell, but not enough to change the mechanics of casting it.

[Necroticplague]

You can also parse it as meaning "if a spell isn't one of the times listed, it takes notionally longer to cast, but not long enough for it to have any mechanical impact."

So you need a few more words to cast a shorter-than-standard-action spell, but not enough to change the mechanics of casting it.

This is how I interpret it as well. An Extended Feather Fall does take longer to cast than a normal Feather Fall, but the end result is still "pretty close to no time". 2*0=0, after all.