Help with a sneaky Gestalt character?

[Kittenwolf]

Heya.
So, I'm going to be playing in a Pathfinder Gestalt game soon and I'm looking at building the "Sneaky guy" combat character.
I'd originally been planning on a Stalker/Soulknife but my GM has said no Dreamscarred, that then changed to Unchained Monk/Unchained Rogue but those have now been banned as well :(
Allowed classes are: Core, Base, Alternate & Hybrid classes

So I'm looking for advice on a sneaky killer. Not quite so interested in trips and grapples and all of that, but I'm looking for stealth, skills & killing.
Currently leaning towards Ninja/Monk or Ninja/Brawler (Mutagenic Mauler most likely) but I'm not too familiar with the myriad archetypes and such so I'm putting out a call for more ideas & synergies :)

[Snowbluff]

Vivisectionist/Synthesist.

Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist)gives you sneak attack, and invisibility.
Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) gives you the ability to take the Skilled evolution, for a +8 Racial bonus to stealth.

Race: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf)half Elf. Take Skill Focus: Stealth as your skill feat. Their Favored Class bonus for Summoner is good (extra Evolution points) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist).
Traits: Trap Finder (www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) for Disable Device and Trap stuff (if you're interested in doing traps if it's cheap, if not take something else). Bandit for +1 to stealth and the stealth skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/bandit-regional-river-kingdoms).

Feats: Like, take Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-), max out your eidolon dex, and take a dex mutagen. Become a 4 armed pirate with your Synthesist ability, use a Great Invisibility extract. Walk up to someone and eat their face. Maybe take the pounce evolution, it might help.

[Kittenwolf]

While a terrifying idea, I'm already playing a Spell-less Synthesist in another game so I'd rather ignore that one :)

[avr]

Pretty sure that anything like a synthesist blender will get banned, based on what the GM has banned so far.

Silent kills mean fast kills. Fast kills mean you need to either be able to move and deliver multiple attacks with a big damage bonus, or to deliver multiple attacks with a big damage bonus at range.

Sneak attack isn't really compatible with ranged attacks in PF until you get improved invisibility (there are some other means, but if you're using gestalt, making one side capble of casting it is fastest, best and simplest); it is possible though to make a scary slayer | warpriest archer who uses stealth but does not depend on it.

For the former you need either to get a set of quick runner's shirts (often banned), or use synthesist summoner pouncing (also often banned), or wait a few levels. The next fastest (in levels) after those two is a druid using wild shape into a big cat of some sort to pounce. It's almost never banned. Would you consider a druid in your gestalt?

BTW, what level are you starting at?

[Kittenwolf]

We don't actually know starting level yet :)
And the GM will be providing custom races since it's a custom setting so that does leave a few dark patches in any possible build.

I must admit I'd prefer to steer away from Druid, because I tend to play primary casters quite a bit and I don't want to be primarily spellslinging.
Though.. is there a Druid variant with no casting and a bunch of other stuff instead? Shapeshifting is a whole other kettle of fish :)

[avr]

A totemic skald is down to 6-level casting and gets some wild shape. Similarly with the feral hunter archetype of the hunter. The druid archetypes though just about all keep their casting or even boost it, the only one that loses any of it I know of (survivor) also loses wild shape.

If none of those suit then there's a magus using spell combat and bladed dash to get in a move and a full attack and more. 6-level caster, again. A horizon walker or probably a shadowdancer can teleport in and full attack with the dimensional assault feat, but you need feat retraining to get that in a reasonable number of levels. Beast totem barbarians can full attack on a charge at 10 ... Casters really can do this at a much earlier level.

Edit: almost forgot, an 8th level brawler can get the pummelling charge feat. You were considering a brawler | ninja?

[Kittenwolf]

A totemic skald is down to 6-level casting and gets some wild shape. Similarly with the feral hunter archetype of the hunter. The druid archetypes though just about all keep their casting or even boost it, the only one that loses any of it I know of (survivor) also loses wild shape.

If none of those suit then there's a magus using spell combat and bladed dash to get in a move and a full attack and more. 6-level caster, again. A horizon walker or probably a shadowdancer can teleport in and full attack with the dimensional assault feat, but you need feat retraining to get that in a reasonable number of levels. Beast totem barbarians can full attack on a charge at 10 ... Casters really can do this at a much earlier level.

Edit: almost forgot, an 8th level brawler can get the pummelling charge feat. You were considering a brawler | ninja?

Ugh. So wish I'd been allowed a Stalker ><

Yeah, considering Brawler as an option, though Pummelling Charge is Lvl 12 :( (BaB +12 required)
Monk/Ninja sounds cool and thematic but it's CAD :(
Makes me wish for the old "Kung-Fu Genius" style feats that let you key an ability off another ability score.

[Tuvarkz]

Honestly, will all the stuff that has been banned a sneaky noncaster is going to be pretty underwhelming. Slayer/Magus or Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue/Guide Ranger are probably your best bets if you still want on the sneaky character idea, however.

[Krazzman]

Jeah, I believe giving up on magic/spells is pretty invalid with those things.

Stalker//Magus or even Ranger//Magus will work thanks to vanish at low levels and better invisibility later on.

Warpriest//Hunter would be another way (although I don't know if either has any spells that enhance stealth).

[Psyren]

If you want to be a shapeshifter without casting, I recommend the new Metamorph Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/metamorph-alchemist-archetype) archetype from Ultimate Intrigue. They trade away their extracts for a decently powerful supernatural shapeshifting ability that lasts all day and can be swapped around for various situations after low levels. You can combine this with any stealthy class (like a rogue or slayer) for a very solid all-rounder character that doesn't use traditional spellcasting or extracts.

[avr]

Pummelling Charge

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.
The underlined bit means you need one of those prereqs, not all 3. Brawler 8 should suffice.

The metamorph alchemist is a decent choice. Note that the earliest it can get pounce or other move + multiple attacks is level 9 though. Compare to magus 4, druid or feral hunter 5, totemic skald 6, brawler or monk 8 ... or barbarian 10 or avenger vigilante 12, to be fair.

[Florian]

If playing evil alignments is an option, then a decent "sneaky kill" Gestalt could be done with Rogue/Red Mantis Assassin // Warpriest (Red Mantis Zealot)

[Kittenwolf]

If you want to be a shapeshifter without casting, I recommend the new Metamorph Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/metamorph-alchemist-archetype) archetype from Ultimate Intrigue. They trade away their extracts for a decently powerful supernatural shapeshifting ability that lasts all day and can be swapped around for various situations after low levels. You can combine this with any stealthy class (like a rogue or slayer) for a very solid all-rounder character that doesn't use traditional spellcasting or extracts.

That's an interesting looking archetype. Pity they lose bombs so I can't take Vivisectionist with it ;)

On the other hand.. if I loosened my rules on spellcasting and took Extracts, I could go Alchemist (Vivisectionist & Beastmorph) Master Chymist/Slayer.
Should be an utter melee brute and excellent at taking out unaware opponents while still having general skill-monkey stuff and trapfinding etc.

[Psyren]

That's an interesting looking archetype. Pity they lose bombs so I can't take Vivisectionist with it ;)

Aren't you playing gestalt though? You could easily get sneak attack on your other side.

(Or just go for a regular melee brute build with high strength, PA, multiattack etc.)

[Kittenwolf]

Okay!
Thinking that to avoid being overshadowed I'm going to need to relax my stance on "No spellcasting".

What are people's thoughts on effectiveness and synergy:
Ninja/Oracle (Darkness)
Investigator/Slayer
Investigator/Arcanist (more of a skill monkey and "Hey, I have the solution!" character than just sneaky)

[Florian]

Darkness Oracles are pretty versatile, but lend themselves more to the full caster role, getting a leg up into summoning and all that.

[LTwerewolf]

Wait so arcanist is ok, while unchained rogue and stalker isn't? Am I missing something here?

[Psyren]

If you go Ninja/Oracle, consider the Tengu race so you can be a Shigenjo and get a stacking ki pool. You lose Darkness though.

[Kittenwolf]

Wait so arcanist is ok, while unchained rogue and stalker isn't? Am I missing something here?

He's basically only allowing the stuff that he knows, so base classes, core classes, hybrid classes and alternate classes.

[SorenKnight]

Feats: Like, take Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-), max out your eidolon dex, and take a dex mutagen. Become a 4 armed pirate with your Synthesist ability, use a Great Invisibility extract. Walk up to someone and eat their face. Maybe take the pounce evolution, it might help.

No Deamscarred means no Deadly Agility.

I'd say take Slayer and then take either the Slashing Grace (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slashing-grace-combat) line or the Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) line for Dex to damage.

Sneak attack says it stacks with all sneak attack, but gestalt says identical abilities aren't duplicated. Depending on your GM's ruling you could take Rogue, Vivisectionist or Ninja as the other half of your gestalt. If he says you can't double up on sneak attack dice go with something with good utility, like vanilla Alchemist. Or you good go Druid and get all those size bonus to stealth as a tiny bird.

[Farmerbink]

He's basically only allowing the stuff that he knows, so base classes, core classes, hybrid classes and alternate classes.

Frankly, if this guy doesn't allow the unchained rogue, you shouldn't be playing a sneaky character with him. The class isn't even remotely overpowered- and it actually does what you want to do. Honestly, I'd bail.

If you know him on a personal level, encourage him to read the class page. It'll take all of 10 minutes, and should be a quick way to highlight the (minimal) differences between the unchained rogue and the totally neutered core rogue.

I suppose if you really want to get silly, the shadow bloodline of sorcerer can be fun. You can even take the seeker archetype to handle trapfinding, if you need to. You will need a heavy-skills class on the other side, though. As flavorful as the sorc can be, and as much fun as his tricks are, the toolkit just doesn't support the typical needs of a rogue (face skills, scouting skills, trap management, etc). Could be a fun half, though.