Shadowcraft Mage Questions

[RoboEmperor]

1. Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + Silent Image = Miracle Spell, but... does the Deity grant your miracle or... is it a shadow deity? As in can you exceed the alignment/nature limitations of your deity with a shadow miracle?

2. Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + Silent Image -> Miracle Spell = FREE SIMULACRUMS OF ANYTHING?

3. How does a shadowcraft mage cast miracle? The description for shadow illusions specifically says sorcerer or wizard spells. Answered

4. The alternative to being a gnome is being a part of a cabal of nongnome illusionists. So... can you be a 1man Cabal? You start a Cabal of illusionists, and you research illusion magic heavily, and the only thing missing is the discussion, but that can be fixed by talking to yourself. Also, no reason you can't engage in intrigue and espionage as a 1 man Cabal.

[Belzyk]

No it makes wish not miracle. Miracle is a cleric spell. You need to be a wizardbto pull this off so it's wish.

[RoboEmperor]

No it makes wish not miracle. Miracle is a cleric spell. You need to be a wizardbto pull this off so it's wish.

Wish is a universal spell so no, theres no way SCM can mimic wish. I've been reading scores of articles claiming its miracle.

[Belzyk]

Wish is a universal spell so no, theres no way SCM can mimic wish. I've been reading scores of articles claiming its miracle.

miracle and wish are the exact same spell except ones arcane and the other is divine. You can't cast miracle as a wizard. You have to be a wizard for the build your talking about. So your entire question is flawed

[Belzyk]

Snip for own messup

Exact same working just different classes though I guess a domain wizard might be able to get miracle from luck domain. Well if it states sorcer or wizard spells it's impossible because oracle isn't a sorcer or wizard spell

[RoboEmperor]

miracle and wish are the exact same spell except ones arcane and the other is divine. You can't cast miracle as a wizard. You have to be a wizard for the build your talking about. So your entire question is flawed

Miracle is a divine evocaiton spell that has an optional xp component.
Wish is a universal spell that has a mandatory xp component.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Those two spells are similar, but they are not exactly the same spell.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12470.0

Is just one of the many, many SCM topics claiming you can cast miracle with SCM. I'm asking how.

[Belzyk]

Miracle is a divine evocaiton spell that has an optional xp component.
Wish is a universal spell that has a mandatory xp component.

I don't understand what you are getting at. Those two spells are similar, but they are not exactly the same spell.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12470.0

Is just one of the many, many SCM topics claiming you can cast miracle with SCM. I'm asking how.

Its impossible to do if it states it has to be a sorcerer or wizard spell. Unless luck domain makes it a sorcerer or wizard spell. In which case you still have to worship something so it would act normally

[Gildedragon]

Arcane Disciple (Luck) is the feat to pick.
You need to match the alignment of a deity with the Luck domain

[RoboEmperor]

Its impossible to do if it states it has to be a sorcerer or wizard spell. Unless luck domain makes it a sorcerer or wizard spell. In which case you still have to worship something so it would act normally

Yeah that's it. Arcane Disciple (Luck) adds miracle as an arcane spell to your wizard/sorcerer list, allowing you to use shadow illusions to mimic Miracle, an Evocaiton spell, as an arcane spell.

[Belzyk]

Yeah that's it. Arcane Disciple (Luck) adds miracle as an arcane spell to your wizard/sorcerer list, allowing you to use shadow illusions to mimic Miracle, an Evocaiton spell, as an arcane spell.

Your still worshiping something so it would work normally
Also shadowcraft mage has a alternate way of using it without being a gnome if your dm would allow it.

Also to question 2. Wont work it's not a cleric spell and miracle only replicates cleric spells

[Gildedragon]

4: yes, pending DM approval. Also a lot of the Luck gods are C or otherwise sneaky sorts. I'll using illusions would be up their alley

[Belzyk]

And you'd also be loosing 5k exp each casting so use at your own perial. Cant bypass the xp cost even with shadow evocation also shadow evocation states it has to be a spell of 4th level or lower so miracle is still impossible


You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

[RoboEmperor]

Your still worshiping something so it would work normally
Also shadowcraft mage has a alternate way of using it without being a gnome if your dm would allow it.

Also to question 2. Wont work it's not a cleric spell and miracle only replicates cleric spells

"Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower."

....?


And you'd also be loosing 5k exp each casting so use at your own perial. Cant bypass the xp cost even with shadow evocation

....? Where is your source for this? Because by RAW shadow conjuration ignore all components of the spell its mimicking.

[Necroticplague]

2. Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + Silent Image -> Miracle Spell = FREE SIMULACRUMS OF ANYTHING?

4. The alternative to being a gnome is being a part of a cabal of nongnome illusionists. So... can you be a 1man Cabal? You start a Cabal of illusionists, and you research illusion magic heavily, and the only thing missing is the discussion, but that can be fixed by talking to yourself. Also, no reason you can't engage in intrigue and espionage as a 1 man Cabal.

2. Technically, yes. Be prepared to dodge flying books

4.Technically, yes. A cabal is simply a secret political faction. A faction can have one person. So as long as you're goal is sufficiently political, and you take efforts to keep said goal secret, you're technically a cabal.

[Belzyk]

"Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower."

....?



....? Where is your source for this? Because afaik, shadow conjuration spells ignore all components.

Disregard that I forgot shadow evocation doesn't require costs but it doesn't allow spells over 4th level either so nope won't work

It will just maximize the he'll outta damage spells

[RoboEmperor]

Disregard that I forgot shadow evocation doesn't require costs but it doesn't allow spells over 4th level either so nope won't work

I don't understand what you are getting at. I think you don't know what a shadowcraft mage does. A shadowcraft mage can turn silent image chain of spells into shadow conjuration or evocation spells that can mimic any spell 1 level lower. So if you use a heightened level 9 silent image, you can cast all level 8 conjuration (creation, summon) or evocation spells. Earth Spell allows you to get access to level 10 silent images, which allows you to cast all level 9 evocation spells, and miracle is an evocation spell.

[Gildedragon]

Is the "it doesn't cost XP" based on the fact that neither Shadow Evo nor Shadow Conj say one must pay the XP costs? Wouldn't the paying of the costs be part of the "duplicate the spell"?

[Belzyk]

I don't understand what you are getting at. I think you don't know what a shadowcraft mage does. A shadowcraft mage can turn silent image chain of spells into shadow conjuration or evocation spells that can mimic any spell 1 level lower. So if you use a heightened level 9 silent image, you can cast all level 8 conjuration (creation, summon) or evocation spells. Earth Spell allows you to get access to level 10 silent images, which allows you to cast all level 9 evocation spells, and miracle is an evocation spell.

Thats right I got mixed up your upping silent images level to redicuous levels my bad. But then wording says it works exactly the same as the spell it's mimicing so your still be required to pay the exp

[RoboEmperor]

Is the "it doesn't cost XP" based on the fact that neither Shadow Evo nor Shadow Conj say one must pay the XP costs? Wouldn't the paying of the costs be part of the "duplicate the spell"?

I believe the components and casting time are independent of the duplicated spell.

[Belzyk]

Is the "it doesn't cost XP" based on the fact that neither Shadow Evo nor Shadow Conj say one must pay the XP costs? Wouldn't the paying of the costs be part of the "duplicate the spell"?

Yes it would. Even making silent image a 10th level spell. (Which you have to ask your dm if it's possible because 10th level spells don't exist after 9th level it becomes seeds.) It still duplicates the miracle which requires an xp cost to work. So in the end it's up to your dm weather not works or not because you can't technically make a 10th level spell

Nope wait miracle only costs additional xp for certain spells. But still up to dm because 10th level spells are impossible unless your dm says differently.

[Gildedragon]

Actually miracle-d Simulacrum would still coat XP as the shadowmiracle would demand simulacrum's xp cost be paid.

[Necroticplague]

Yes it would. Even making silent image a 10th level spell. (Which you have to ask your dm if it's possible because 10th level spells don't exist after 9th level it becomes seeds.) It still duplicates the miracle which requires an xp cost to work. So in the end it's up to your dm weather not works or not because you can't technically make a 10th level spell

Nope wait miracle only costs additional xp for certain spells. But still up to dm because 10th level spells are impossible unless your dm says differently.

False. 10th level spells exist. They're lower level spell metamagiced to higher levels. You can even get scrolls of them. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/scrolls.htm)

[Belzyk]

False. 10th level spells exist. They're lower level spell metamagiced to higher levels. You can even get scrolls of them. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/scrolls.htm)

Name a single natural 10th level spell that doesn't require shenanigans to pull off? In the gnome shadowcraft mate handbook the guy even states it's dependant on the dm. 10th level spells don't exist also that's epic level stuff it's actually seeds not higher levels above 9th

You meed to reread that,srd. It only has 1through9 spells thebhigjer the epic spell level the better the chance of a 9th level spell being in the scroll. Its a poorly written passage.

[Belzyk]

Every post I can find about this is the same as people arguing over weather kobolds with dragonwroufht are true dragons or not. There's proof that it's a no and no real proof of it being a yes.

[Gildedragon]

The scrolls prove spells can be heightened to 10+
Yeah the DM can say no, but that would be the house rule

[Belzyk]

The scrolls prove spells can be heightened to 10+
Yeah the DM can say no, but that would be the house rule

It comes down to your DM there's no rule saying it's possible and no rule saying it's impossible. But it should be taken as impossible because its shenanigans to try and break the game. Its not legit. Also why use miracle to cast the spell when you can just mimic the spell? You gotta cast miracle every time and eventually the God isngonna say no

[Shadowquad]

Casting 10th level spells is easy. Check the srd for the feats Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity), which gives you 10th level spell slots, and Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell), which allows you to upgrade the level of a spell you cast to fit its spell slot.

While those feats are indeed epic, they are in no way related to the Epic Spellcasting feat, which uses the seeds system.

Edit : Mimicking Miracle allows you to duplicate any spell, not only Evocation/Conjuration ones.

[Gildedragon]

Re question 1:
Source of the spell: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ask your DM for those tough cosmological questions... Or the afroacuma planar questions thread
As to alignment of the deity: Nope, to get the spell your alignment has to be precisely the deity's

[RoboEmperor]

Shadow Evocation
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Clearly states that only the range, effect, duration, and saving throw are affected by the duplicated spell. Spell Resistance is always yes, Components are always Verbal and Somatic, always, no XP or material components, and casting time is always 1 standard action.

I cannot find a single sentence in the d20srd that support your claims, only the contrary.

edit: I came across as a little rude, so I edited that part out.

[Belzyk]

Casting 10th level spells is easy. Check the srd for the feats Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity), which gives you 10th level spell slots, and Improved Heighten Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell), which allows you to upgrade the level of a spell you cast to fit its spell slot.

While those feats are indeed epic, they are in no way related to the Epic Spellcasting feat, which uses the seeds system.

Thats just to hold 9th level spells or lower that have been highened it's not actual spell levels it says it in the description. But answer this. How many times is a God going to allow you to do this before refusing you? Miracle is the most powerful spell a God can grant. It litteraly is asking a God for divine intervention. How many times will a God mechanically do it? As a dm maybe once?

[Belzyk]

Belzyk, I respectfully ask you to read the materials in question thoroughly before arguing your point so strongly.

Shadow Evocation
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: Yes

Clearly states that only the range, effect, duration, and saving throw are affected by the duplicated spell. Spell Resistance is always yes, Components are always Verbal and Somatic, always, no XP or material components, and casting time is always 1 standard action.

I cannot find a single sentence in the d20srd that support your claims, only the contrary.

Umm that's half the spell where's the half you cutnout?


Shadow Evocation
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Effect: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: Yes
You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell of 4th level or lower. (For a spell with more than one level, use the best one applicable to you.)

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur. If recognized as a shadow evocation, a damaging spell deals only one-fifth (20%) damage. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) rather than the spell’s normal level.

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.


Also I'm not trying to be rude. Its just all this stuff is shenanigans and not practical. Don't get me wrong I love shinanigans I allow my players to count kobolds as true dragons and all that but. This isn't a practical way of using shadowcraft mage. This is a dm it's possible if You allow this this and this oh and don't forget you gotta allow this also

[RoboEmperor]

Umm that's half the spell where's the half you cutnout?


In the parts that I cut out, did you find anything supporting your claims?

Was there any statement about casting time changes?
Was there any statement about material component changes?
Was there any statement about spell resistance? Yes there was, and it supports my claims.
Was there any statement about saving throws? Yes there was, and it supports my claims.

[Gildedragon]

Thats just to hold 9th level spells or lower that have been highened it's not actual spell levels it says it in the description. But answer this. How many times is a God going to allow you to do this before refusing you? Miracle is the most powerful spell a God can grant. It litteraly is asking a God for divine intervention. How many times will a God mechanically do it? As a dm maybe once?

Except shadow miracle isn't effected by a god.
As to a god bestowing the spell: as many times as the PC asks for it, be the PC a cleric or an arcane caster with the arcane disciple feat, or an urpriest, or anything

One can argue that miracle isn't xpfree because the costs come as a part of the spell itself but as part of the duplication of a spell or in the extraordinary effect effect.

[Belzyk]

In the parts that I cut out, did you find anything supporting your claims?

Was there any statement about casting time changes?
Was there any statement about material component changes?
Was there any statement about spell resistance? Yes there was, and it supports my claims.
Was there any statement about saving throws? Yes there was, and it supports my claims.

The fact that shadow evocation only mimics 4th level and below spells

[Belzyk]

Except shadow miracle isn't effected by a god.
As to a god bestowing the spell: as many times as the PC asks for it, be the PC a cleric or an arcane caster with the arcane disciple feat, or an urpriest, or anything

One can argue that miracle isn't xpfree because the costs come as a part of the spell itself but as part of the duplication of a spell or in the extraordinary effect effect.

Yes it is. It won't work without a gods power? How do you allow a spell that specifically states it's not really a spell just you asking for a gods help in the description of what the spell does?

Your still having to mimic asking for a gods help in which case the God can deny it. Ur priest steal from the gods.

[RoboEmperor]

Except shadow miracle isn't effected by a god.
As to a god bestowing the spell: as many times as the PC asks for it, be the PC a cleric or an arcane caster with the arcane disciple feat, or an urpriest, or anything

That's what I'm asking. It's like "Does SHADES spell, when duplicating Planar Binding, create a shadow called creature, or does it just call a creature like normal, except with more saves?"

So does Shadow Miracle create Shadow Divine Energies or a Shadow God that intervenes, or does it send out a request like a normal miracle spell?



One can argue that miracle isn't xpfree because the costs come as a part of the spell itself but as part of the duplication of a spell or in the extraordinary effect effect.

Yeah except it doesn't say "It replicates a spell", it says "It creates an illusory version of a spell". Unfortunately, by RAW, just like how Dweomerkeepers ignore XP cost, Shadow Illusions also ignore Xp costs since it is, by RAW, a component.

[Gildedragon]

Yes it is. It won't work without a gods power? How do you allow a spell that specifically states it's not really a spell just you asking for a gods help in the description of what the spell does?

How does it work when a deityless cleric casts it?
Answer: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but it works.
This is no different.
Now it isn't wholly unreasonable to say the greater request effect can't be used by a shadow spell (after all how would one determine the percentage based pseudoreality of such an effect?)
But that only brings up a stickier issue: 100+% pseudoreality

[Belzyk]

That's what I'm asking. It's like "Does SHADES spell, when duplicating Planar Binding, create a shadow called creature, or does it just call a creature like normal, except with more saves?"

So does Shadow Miracle create Shadow Divine Energies or a Shadow God that intervenes, or does it send out a request like a normal miracle spell?



Yeah except it doesn't say "It replicates a spell", it says "It creates an illusory version of a spell". Unfortunately, by RAW, just like how Dweomerkeepers ignore XP cost, Shadow Illusions also ignore Xp costs since it is, by RAW, a component.

Also shadow illusion also only replicates spells that don't require xp costs because it also only replicates 4th level or lower spells

[Shadowquad]

As for the original second question about free simulacrum : It has to be duplicated by Miracle, so you have to pay its XP cost. RAW states that the duplicated spell (Miracle here) is XP-free, but the simulacrum duplication obeys the rule of general Miracle spell duplication, which state that :

"When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component."

This text is disconnected from the components of the Miracle spell, it therefore adds an XP cost you must pay.

[Necroticplague]

Thats just to hold 9th level spells or lower that have been highened it's not actual spell levels it says it in the description.

1st off: Grammar. It doesn't help your argument to sound illiterate.
2nd off: A lower level spell heightened to level 10 is a level 10 spell. No ambiguities about it.

[Belzyk]

How does it work when a deityless cleric casts it?
Answer: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but it works.
This is no different.
Now it isn't wholly unreasonable to say the greater request effect can't be used by a shadow spell (after all how would one determine the percentage based pseudoreality of such an effect?)
But that only brings up a stickier issue: 100+% pseudoreality

Answer your still asking a divine power for help. Deityless clerics worship ideals ideals that are so powerful itnhas impact I'm reality. Same thingnas a god

[Belzyk]

One question? We can all agree this is all bull**** shenanigans and not the way all thisnis intended correct?

[Gildedragon]

That's what I'm asking. It's like "Does SHADES spell, when duplicating Planar Binding, create a shadow called creature, or does it just call a creature like normal, except with more saves?"

So does Shadow Miracle create Shadow Divine Energies or a Shadow God that intervenes, or does it send out a request like a normal miracle spell?



Yeah except it doesn't say "It replicates a spell", it says "It creates an illusory version of a spell". Unfortunately, by RAW, just like how Dweomerkeepers ignore XP cost, Shadow Illusions also ignore Xp costs since it is, by RAW, a component.
But miracle then asks you to pay xp for the replicated spell within the spell text.

As to shades: I figure a called shadow-stuff version Of the creature

[Gildedragon]

One question? We can all agree this is all bull**** shenanigans and not the way all thisnis intended correct?

I actually quite like the shadow shenanigans as a DM. Makes for a world with interesting philosophical questions. I have the idea of some heretical texts that state the shadow world is the real one and the pmp is the reflection; backed by how the shadow connects to all worlds, and the existence of hyperreal pseudoreal effects

[Yuki Akuma]

One question? We can all agree this is all bull**** shenanigans and not the way all thisnis intended correct?

Earth Spell and Shadowcraft Mage are in the same book. We can assume, at least, that it was intended that Shadowcraft Mages be capable of using Shadow Illusion to duplicate 9th level spells. Earth Spell doesn't really do much else of value.

Arcane Disciple is from a different book, so we can't be sure whether it was intended for Shadowcraft Mages to use it. The feat doesn't specify whether it makes domain spells count as Sorcerer/Wizard spells or not, because it was written before it was important to know that.

Why the hell do you care if a spellcaster capable of casting 9th level spells casts a particular 9th level spell anyway? He knows Arcane Disciple, so he can already cast Miracle anyway!

[RoboEmperor]

One question? We can all agree this is all bull**** shenanigans and not the way all thisnis intended correct?

Why are you so hostile o_o. This thread maybe a little out of your comfort zone. This is all basically Theoretical Optimization level as this class is considered one of the most OP in the game, so trying to shoot down the shenanigans this class can pull with this thread is probably not the best idea. I haven't even mentioned stacking metamagic reducers for heighten spell.

If I do go down this route, I'll probably grab Wyrm Wizard to get Miracle rather than arcane disciple.

[Belzyk]

Why are you so hostile o_o. This thread maybe a little out of your comfort zone. This is all basically Theoretical Optimization level as this class is considered one of the most OP in the game, so trying to shoot down the shenanigans this class can pull with this thread is probably not the best idea. I haven't even mentioned stacking metamagic reducers for heighten spell.

Fml. I apologize. I thought they were asking for real use. If it's theoretical then yes there's a way impracically to use it

[Shadowquad]

No, Miracle has no XP cost when used to duplicate other spells, which is the use we discuss here, except when the duplicated spell itself has an XP cost.

[Yuki Akuma]

Miracle has no XP cost when used to duplicate spells. Read the spell description.

The spell description also says you have to pay the XP cost for any spells you duplicate, which Shadow Illusion can't get around, so no you cannot get free infinite Simulacrums. Okay? Okay.

[Belzyk]

No, Miracle has no XP cost when used to duplicate other spells, which is the use we discuss here, except when the duplicated spell itself has an XP cost.

Miracle itself cost xp before you even get to the spell effect. It has a xp cost as a spell,component

[Yuki Akuma]

Miracle itself cost xp before you even get to the spell effect. It has a xp cost as a spell,component

No. No it doesn't. It only costs XP if you ask for a greater effect.

READ THE SPELL DESCRIPTION. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)

[RoboEmperor]

No. No it doesn't. It only costs XP if you ask for a greater effect.

READ THE SPELL DESCRIPTION. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)

I see now what you're saying. It doesn't list the simulacrum's material components as Miracle's material components. Miracle has no material component, so shadow illusion would require both the gp and the xp component of the simulacrum if I want to go down that route, making this whole ordeal pointless.

The only thing Shadow Illusions can do is ignore the 5000XP component of Miracle's greater effect.

Ok I'm convinced. I just lost 100% of my interest in this combo XD.

[Yuki Akuma]

I see now what you're saying. It doesn't list the simulacrum's material components as Miracle's material components. Miracle has no material component, so shadow illusion would require both the gp and the xp component of the simulacrum if I want to go down that route, making this whole ordeal pointless.

The only thing Shadow Illusions can do is ignore the 5000XP component of Miracle's greater effect.

Ok I'm convinced. I just lost 100% of my interest in this combo XD.

May I interest you in the Gnome Illusionist + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + Arcane Disciple (Luck) + Residual Magic (from Complete Mage) combo instead? :smallwink:

Nothing says "what the hell, you're breaking the game dude" than casting Miracle out of cantrip slots.

[Belzyk]

No. No it doesn't. It only costs XP if you ask for a greater effect.

READ THE SPELL DESCRIPTION. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)

My bad I miss read it. But still it's impossible to abuse liken the guy was asking for.

[RoboEmperor]

May I interest you in the Gnome Illusionist + Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + Arcane Disciple (Luck) + Residual Magic (from Complete Mage) combo instead? :smallwink:

Nothing says "what the hell, you're breaking the game dude" than casting Miracle out of cantrip slots.

Naw, I'm interested in free minions. I thought this would let me get free simulacrums before epic levels, you know, with ignore material components and rod of excellent magic.

I like shadow creatures. They set a nice, dark, scary mood, and it also helps that i'm creating shadow creatures, instead of summoning an existing creature.

I guess I'm sticking with Runic Guardians and their free simulacrum shenanigans XD.

[Belzyk]

Naw, I'm interested in free minions. I thought this would let me get free simulacrums before epic levels, you know, with ignore material components and rod of excellent magic.

I like shadow creatures. They set a nice, dark, scary mood, and it also helps that i'm creating shadow creatures, instead of summoning an existing creature.

I guess I'm sticking with Runic Guardians and their free simulacrum shenanigans XD.

Summon a horde of unread as a dread necromancer. Nothing says death like an endless supply of the dead.

[Shadowquad]

For free minions, I like the Spellstitched template with the Animate Dread Warrior spell. The initial cost is quite high and you have to be (or control) an undead, but then you can freely animate as many dread warriors as you want, they do not count upon any control limit, unlike Animate Dead.

Edit : Or, you know, Mirror Mephits...

[RoboEmperor]

Summon a horde of unread as a dread necromancer. Nothing says death like an endless supply of the dead.

Except you need to find corpses. If your 41hd great wyrm skeleton dies, boo hoo hoo, good luck finding another one. Of course there's always stone to flesh and polymorph any object shenanigans to make your own corpses but... yeah, I've already been down this route.

[Gildedragon]

Use miracle to emulate War Halaster's Fetch

[Pippin]

Does anyone out there silently believe that adding a spell to a Wizard's spellbook doesn't make it become a Sorcerer/Wizard spell? Because I do Q_Q

And honestly, this PrC is so awesome without Miracle already, you don't really need it. On minmaxboards, it was recently agreed that Shadowcraft Mages were the second best PrC ever. Right behind Dweomerkeepers. So, if you want to cast almost any spell with no XP/gp cost, be a Dweomerkeeper. If you want to be flexible to a ludicrous degree, be a Shadowcraft Mage. If you want to be God, be both! Wizard 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Dweomerkeeper 10? Sounds balanced enough :smallbiggrin:

[RoboEmperor]

Does anyone out there silently believe that adding a spell to a Wizard's spellbook doesn't make it become a Sorcerer/Wizard spell? Because I do Q_Q

And honestly, this PrC is so awesome without Miracle already, you don't really need it. On minmaxboards, it was recently agreed that Shadowcraft Mages were the second best PrC ever. Right behind Dweomerkeepers. So, if you want to cast almost any spell with no XP/gp cost, be a Dweomerkeeper. If you want to be flexible to a ludicrous degree, be a Shadowcraft Mage. If you want to be God, be both! Wizard 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Dweomerkeeper 10? Sounds balanced enough :smallbiggrin:

You need cleric dip for dweomerkeeper. FAQ specifically stated southern magician does not grant you the ability to cast divine spells.

Anyways I was under the impression Incantatrix was OP PrC #1 because honestly, dweomerkeeper is superfluous because of Zodars, Rod of Excellent Magic, etc.

[Pippin]

You need cleric dip for dweomerkeeper. FAQ specifically stated southern magician does not grant you the ability to cast divine spells.
It's okay. There's an ACF that grants the power of a Domain, and Arcane Disciple grants the spells of a Domain. If you have both, you have the entire Domain.


Anyways I was under the impression Incantatrix was OP PrC #1 because honestly, dweomerkeeper is superfluous because of Zodars, Rod of Excellent Magic, etc.
As far as TO is concerned, you don't really need to be an Incantatrix, just hire/charm/dominate one to do the persisting for you.

[Necroticplague]

You need cleric dip for dweomerkeeper. FAQ specifically stated southern magician does not grant you the ability to cast divine spells.

FAQ isn't RAW. Southern Magician let's you cast arcane spells as divine spells, thus you can cast divine spells.

[DarkSonic1337]

Dragon Magazine also has alternative source spell if that's open

[Necroticplague]

Dragon Magazine also has alternative source spell if that's open

Doesn't help, because it has prerequisite: able to cast arcane and divine spells. So if you can get that feat, you already cast divine and arcane, so it;'s not helping you shortcut entry requirements at all.