Nerfed Witch - Is this class still playable?

[Rumo]

Hi!

I'm building a character for a new Pathfinder group. Unfortunately I joined last, as a result of which I cannot really pick my favourite class, as it is already taken.
I chose to play a witch, but it seems to me that our DM has cut away most of what makes this class attractive to me by making the following nerfs on hexes:
- Slumber only affects creatures with no more HD than the Witch's level
- Fortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Misfortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Cackle has the following ruling, which seems to be official: "Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 1 day"
To add insult to injury, the target of Ill Omen has a saving throw.

I don't mind playing a character with limited strenght, but it seems to me that the Witch has become completely useless with these changes. It seems to me that conceptually the idea is that the Witch is full arcane spell caster with a very limited spellbook, but powerful hexes to make up for it. After these nerfs, I'm under the impression that what's left is just the limited spellbook. Take the Arcanist for comparison: The exploits are clearly stronger than those nerfed hexes and he can learn every single spell from the Wizard/Sorcerer list!

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Some new perspective would be appreciated.

[Honest Tiefling]

- Slumber only affects creatures with no more HD than the Witch's level

Seems fair, and most bosses probably need something heavier hitting to deal with anyway. Use on minions. Not great, but doable.


- Fortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Misfortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e

Can you please explain what an advantage roll means? I don't play 5e and I want to know how it is implemented here.


- Cackle has the following ruling, which seems to be official: "Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 1 day"
To add insult to injury, the target of Ill Omen has a saving throw.

...SO! How about a wizard? A witch is still a tier one caster, so it is still strong even with these changes. The witch's spell list is one of the worst for a full caster, and their patrons get a bit weird and/or useless. Cackle is sorta a lynchpin of the play style to boot, and without hexes you could probably still do a lot, but you're a nerfed wizard. If the entire party is low-OP you could try some of the less optimal hexes...But if there's other tier 1 casters available, I advise jumping ship to sail aboard the U.S.S Wizard.

[Tuvarkz]

Can you please explain what an advantage roll means? I don't play 5e and I want to know how it is implemented here.


Advantage is roll twice, take highest, and disadvantage is roll twice, take lowest. Basically just rewording what Fortune and Misfortune already do.

[Spore]

Are you sure they won't nerf Wizards as well? If not play one of these.

Additionally


- Slumber only affects creatures with no more HD than the Witch's level
- Fortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Misfortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Cackle has the following ruling, which seems to be official: "Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 1 day"

The Slumber nerf is justified imho but HD is a terrible way to measure monster to PC power. Almost all monsters (and most single NPC encounters) have higher HD than your witch.

The Cackle nerf is not official nor is it really reasonable. It is insanely useful but to abuse this you need 2 conditions met. a) failed save. b) able to cram in a cackle into your next turn which usually locks you in place (move action was used) or denies you from using spells if threatened (move for cackle, move for...well running/flying away).

The other hexes work almost exactly like an advantage (roll 2, take better) and disadvantage roll (roll 2, take worse). Stacking rerolls was a very frustrating thing for our DM. He built a quite threatening Half Fiend Troll Antipaladin to fight us and within two turns the Witch and my Dual Cursed Oracle shut him down, forcing it to reroll an attack four times. If one missed he would not hit anything. Per D&D 5 rules advantage cancels disadvantage and both cannot be stacked.

[Slithery D]

Advantage is roll twice, take highest, and disadvantage is roll twice, take lowest. Basically just rewording what Fortune and Misfortune already do.

Yeah, my first thought was that this is no change at all. If his GM thinks he's nerfed it this is either (1) good, because the GM hasn't, or (2) bad, because the GM doesn't understand the rules and this is just a sign of confusion and chaos to come.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The Slumber nerf is irksome, but one could easily avoid it. Fortune and Misfortune are pretty stock, but that Cackle nerf... it completely misses the point of what cackle is supposed to do. I would talk to the GM about it, since... yeah, that's really bad. But, it is possible to avoid that hex...

[Psyren]

Advantage is roll twice, take highest, and disadvantage is roll twice, take lowest. Basically just rewording what Fortune and Misfortune already do.


Yeah, my first thought was that this is no change at all. If his GM thinks he's nerfed it this is either (1) good, because the GM hasn't, or (2) bad, because the GM doesn't understand the rules and this is just a sign of confusion and chaos to come.

There is one slight change - advantage and disadvantage help you understand what happens if a character is affected by multiple reroll effects. In 5e, if you have 10 sources of advantage, you still only get one positive reroll. Further, if you have 10 sources of advantage but gain 1 source of disadvantage, they all cancel out. and you roll normally.

[Zanos]

The justification for the cackle nerf is probably so you can't double cackle and keep fortune up on your entire party forever.

Witch is pretty much fine with these changes, to be honest.

[Rumo]

Thank you for the replies. I should have added this: I completely agree that a Slumber nerf is justified. I'm just not happy that it's a nerf that completely destroys the hex. As it was mentioned above, every opponent that's worth using Slumber on has higher HD than me. My idea would have been:"The target can roll a Will save every turn to wake up from his or her slumber?"
I also don't mind the advantage/disadvantage mechanic. But as a matter of fact, they weaken the class further.
My problem is that with all of these things are in effect, it feels like using a hex has been degraded to the I-don't-want-to-waste-a-spell-but-shooting-Acid-Spray-would-be-just-too-pathetic type of situation.

And my point isn't to whine about the DM, I just wonder if there are still ways to turn the Witch into a well functioning character.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Spending a hex for the opportunity to extend SOME hexes for 1 round isn't worth a hex. Even if it affected all hexes, or didn't cost a move action/swift with the Cackling Hag's Blouse.

[Rumo]

The justification for the cackle nerf is probably so you can't double cackle and keep fortune up on your entire party forever.

Witch is pretty much fine with these changes, to be honest.

Yeah, and how long does it take for the entire party to be under the Fortune effect? One character a turn, provided the Witch spends both her move and her standard action every turn. Once per character per day. Wizards/Sorcerers/Arcanists can use one standard action and cast Haste, for a larger impact on the battle than all this 3-5 rounds of hexing.

[Zanos]

Yeah, and how long does it take for the entire party to be under the Fortune effect? One character a turn, provided the Witch spends both her move and her standard action every turn. Once per character per day. Wizards/Sorcerers/Arcanists can use one standard action and cast Haste, for a larger impact on the battle than all this 3-5 rounds of hexing.
Nah, you cast fortune on everyone and then cackle with your move action each round. Once everyone is fortuned, you cackle twice per round since it's a move action, thereby stacking the duration up until you're satisfied with it. Just do it out of combat.

[Rumo]

Well, if that is really the problem then by all means, make Fortune unaffected by Cackle! Cursing is much more Witch-theme than blessing anyway.
So does the Witch have anything to offer in order to make up for this path of destruction? Anything that I miss?

[Zanos]

Fortune and Misfortune are basically the same since it's not very often that I see rerolls mixed at low levels.
Slumber prevents you from taking out the biggest threats, but doesn't prevent you from one shoting any of the weaker enemies in the encounter.
The cackle nerf is kinda stupid.

No Major or Grand hexes have been changed. The nerfs aren't really enough to shift the witches power around to make it worse than classes it was better than.

[Rumo]

Fortune and Misfortune are basically the same since it's not very often that I see rerolls mixed at low levels.
Slumber prevents you from taking out the biggest threats, but doesn't prevent you from one shoting any of the weaker enemies in the encounter.
The cackle nerf is kinda stupid.

No Major or Grand hexes have been changed. The nerfs aren't really enough to shift the witches power around to make it worse than classes it was better than.

Major hexes are rather irrelevant, as you get only one of them and only at a late level. Grand hexes are completely relevant because you never reach that level anyway.

[Zanos]

Major hexes are rather irrelevant, as you get only one of them and only at a late level. Grand hexes are completely relevant because you never reach that level anyway.
"Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex."

I don't consider 10th level to be late, and one every other level from then on certainly isn't one of them.

[Rumo]

"Starting at 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch can choose one of the following major hexes whenever she could select a new hex."

I don't consider 10th level to be late, and one every other level from then on certainly isn't one of them.

Okay, missed that. Well, 10th level is not too late of course. Still it would be nice until then to have hexes that are more than slightly better than cantrips.

[Barstro]

Fortune and Misfortune are basically the same since it's not very often that I see rerolls mixed at low levels.


Misfortune is a negative reroll every time. Fortune is a positive reroll once per turn that you have to call before the first roll. I found Fortune to not be very useful. Use does go up with more allies or Summoned.

[Zanos]

Misfortune is a negative reroll every time. Fortune is a positive reroll once per turn that you have to call before the first roll. I found Fortune to not be very useful. Use does go up with more allies or Summoned.
Doesn't that actually make fortune better if it grants advantage on every roll?

[Florian]

Well, there´re still other Witch builds besides cackling like crazy, right? Winter Witch, for example.

[Coidzor]

Doesn't that actually make fortune better if it grants advantage on every roll?

If it grants advantage/disadvantage on every roll, then yes, that would be a good buff/debuff.

I'd suspect that the change is that it's Advantage/Disadvantage on only one roll of the player's choosing. Or possibly GM's choice on what roll is affected.

[Mystral]

Hi!

I'm building a character for a new Pathfinder group. Unfortunately I joined last, as a result of which I cannot really pick my favourite class, as it is already taken.
I chose to play a witch, but it seems to me that our DM has cut away most of what makes this class attractive to me by making the following nerfs on hexes:
- Slumber only affects creatures with no more HD than the Witch's level
- Fortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Misfortune is not a reroll anymore but an advantage roll like in D&D5e
- Cackle has the following ruling, which seems to be official: "Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 1 day"
To add insult to injury, the target of Ill Omen has a saving throw.

I don't mind playing a character with limited strenght, but it seems to me that the Witch has become completely useless with these changes. It seems to me that conceptually the idea is that the Witch is full arcane spell caster with a very limited spellbook, but powerful hexes to make up for it. After these nerfs, I'm under the impression that what's left is just the limited spellbook. Take the Arcanist for comparison: The exploits are clearly stronger than those nerfed hexes and he can learn every single spell from the Wizard/Sorcerer list!

Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Some new perspective would be appreciated.

Being a full caster, a witch would still be playable even if it lost access to its hexes altogether.

The slumber nerf is understandable. You don't want your epic boss to snooze off. But the HD limit is bad, it should go by something else.

The advantage rolls are actually better than the rerolls. The cackle hex stinks if you want to be a fortune buffing witch. And Ill Omen stinks anyway.

[icefractal]

Being a full caster, a witch would still be playable even if it lost access to it's hexes altogether.That's technically true - but at that point it's a worse Wizard with less spells and a smaller spell list. With these changes - I'm not sure; I think personally I might just play a Wizard. Although for an odd-ball choice, there's always White-Haired Witch, that should still work fine, for what it does.

Also, if you want something like Misfortune but way better (and better than non-Cackled Fortune as well), then you want the Dual-Cursed Oracle's Misfortune revelation. So much fun I'm amazed Paizo hasn't gotten rid of it. :smalltongue:


Incidentally:
as a result of which I cannot really pick my favourite class, as it is already taken.I've never understood this. I mean, with a small group I could see a party-role being taken, which is partially related to class. But there's seems to be this idea that you can't repeat classes, which is odd when most have a number of different ways to play them.

[Psyren]

A White-Haired Witch/Eldritch Knight build could be fun. Your hair gets all its tricks (and 15ft. reach) at Witch 8, so you're free to PrC out.

You lose the Rogue Talents, but meh.

[Mystral]

That's technically true - but at that point it's a worse Wizard with less spells and a smaller spell list. With these changes - I'm not sure; I think personally I might just play a Wizard. Although for an odd-ball choice, there's always White-Haired Witch, that should still work fine, for what it does.

Also, if you want something like Misfortune but way better (and better than non-Cackled Fortune as well), then you want the Dual-Cursed Oracle's Misfortune revelation. So much fun I'm amazed Paizo hasn't gotten rid of it. :smalltongue:

Of course a wizard would be better. Unless you need to be the party healer, wizards are better than witches even without the nerfs, just thanks to their far superior spell list. But that was not the question.

[Spore]

Well, if that is really the problem then by all means, make Fortune unaffected by Cackle! Cursing is much more Witch-theme than blessing anyway.

Blessing is as much part of a witch's theme as cursing. Cursing is more popular, more powerful and better supported. But there are several occurances of "white magic" and good witches in stories. Heck, I would appoint most "fairies and fairy godmothers" in fairy tales as supporting witches.


A White-Haired Witch/Eldritch Knight build could be fun. Your hair gets all its tricks (and 15ft. reach) at Witch 8, so you're free to PrC out.


There is also a very cool White Haired Witch/Hexcrafter Magus Build. Bayonetta says Hello (because she surely has NOT a BAB of 1/2 * level).

[Barstro]

Doesn't that actually make fortune better if it grants advantage on every roll?

That would make it better, but RAW is that Fortune is only once per turn, and the player has to call out which roll will be a reroll before he makes the initial roll. Basically, the player has to know which roll will be a failure before knowing it.

Did I miss something in an earlier post where this DM is going to have Fortune work for every roll?

As an aside; the DM might be concerned about the Fortune/Cackle all-day-BS. Just don't allow that part. OR, enforce actual rules so that characters are hindered in their movement while the Witch is trying to do this, they cannot sneak up on anyone because of the insane cackling, no building a Fortune pool (as I recall, nothing in the language says a double-Cackle gives more rounds, but it's been a while since I read the language).
I sort of agree with the DM's view on Slumber. I stopped using it around level 10 because it made fights boring. But I think it should be the player's option of when to use things like this. It's good utility for combat avoidance and preventing TPK

The real problem I see is that the DM is making somewhat random changes to a Class that still has access to Magic Jar. Someone can do a whole hell of a lot more damage with that spell than Slumber. Fortune, Misfortune, or Evil Eye.

[Rumo]

Well, there´re still other Witch builds besides cackling like crazy, right? Winter Witch, for example.

Winter Witch is not allowed, just like Dual-Cursed Oracle. Okay, no Witch for me it seems.

[Rumo]

The Cackle nerf is not official [...]

My DM is refering to this:
You can only cackle once per round. Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for
24 hours. Source: Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide, p. 66, FAQ, Jason Bulmahn

[Psyren]

Nah, you cast fortune on everyone and then cackle with your move action each round. Once everyone is fortuned, you cackle twice per round since it's a move action, thereby stacking the duration up until you're satisfied with it. Just do it out of combat.

This is not allowed (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qoy)

[Gallowglass]

My DM is refering to this:
You can only cackle once per round. Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for
24 hours. Source: Pathfinder Advanced Player’s Guide, p. 66, FAQ, Jason Bulmahn


well that's lame. That totally deflates the point of cackle which is to allow you to extend specific other hexes beyond the duration limit of your intelligence modifier. Being able to spend a move to add one round to a duration period, is a significant downgrade from being able to spend your move action during a long combat to extend the duration through the end of the combat.

Knowing this, I don't think I'd bother taking the cackle hex again with a future witch. That pretty much nullifies any actual usefulness out of the hex.

I mean, lets say I have a +5 int modifier. I can hit someone with a hex that will last 5 rounds. Spending another hex on a hex that lets me make that 6 rounds is significantly weaker than N rounds where N = the number of move actions I'm willing to give up.

(note: I mean the once affected cannot be affect again for 24 hours part. Not the only cackle once a round part. That part is fine.)

[Psyren]

I know you can only cackle once per round, but where is the FAQ saying once per 24 hours per target? Can someone link to that?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

There isn't one. I hope there isn't one, because that would be stupid. I'm okay with the once-per-round cackle, though.

[Rumo]

There isn't one. I hope there isn't one, because that would be stupid. I'm okay with the once-per-round cackle, though.

You are right, there isn't. My DM has mixed up something and thought an entry regarding Fortune related to Cackle. He still insists on keeping it up, which is of course the death of the Witch character class.

[Psyren]

It sounds like your GM just doesn't like witches then and is trying to passive-aggressively ban them via houserules. You're better off playing something else.

[Gallowglass]

You are right, there isn't. My DM has mixed up something and thought an entry regarding Fortune related to Cackle. He still insists on keeping it up, which is of course the death of the Witch character class.

Oh thank God. You just about ruined my favorite class with that one.

[Rumo]

Oh thank God. You just about ruined my favorite class with that one.

:) Well, one day I will play a Witch somewhere in a different group I suppose. Only problem is now that I have absolutely no idea what else to play, but I suppose that's not part of this topic. Sigh.

[Gnaeus]

You can always take Shaman, and Chant.

[Honest Tiefling]

:) Well, one day I will play a Witch somewhere in a different group I suppose. Only problem is now that I have absolutely no idea what else to play, but I suppose that's not part of this topic. Sigh.

Let's make it one! We could try to fluff up a creepy wizard if that is what appeals to you. Or a bard if you wanted to go the buffing route.

[Barstro]

I can understand the hatred for Witch. They are great at Save or Suck/Die and it doesn't take too much to boost the save up high enough to be almost auto. But there are so many ways to counter it that I just think your DM is being lazy.

Otherwise useless minions can wake someone up and negate the entire thing. Archers more than 30 feet away can target that squishy. Silence cast in an area (I think that's an autohit) negates Cackle or forces the Witch to move (which prevents Cackle). Mindless creatures are immune. Mindless grappling creatures are pretty much the perfect defense.

Now, Misfortune is a bit harder to deal with, since it effects the world, not the creature (being mindless doesn't help). But, Cackling it can still be difficult.

Sorry it won't work out for you; I found it to be a fun and helpful class. Maybe you can play a Pit caster and lock down four people at once instead of just one at a time with the Witch.

[Rumo]

Let's make it one! We could try to fluff up a creepy wizard if that is what appeals to you. Or a bard if you wanted to go the buffing route.

Thank you :smallsmile:, the problem is that I already play a Wizard in my other pathfinder group. I would love to play an Arcanists, but the group already has one. I would also love to play a Hunter, but the campaign (Hell's Rebels) mostly takes place in the city, not a place where you can walk around with a lion or a tiger.
I suppose I will end up playing a Paladin. I like their abilities, I think Divine Bond is fun, as far as game-mechanics go I'm happy with Paladin. My problem is that I think there is hardly a class less interesting to play RPG-wise. You are good, you are against all evil, you want to slay all evil. How inspiring. Yawn. After having put quite some time and effort of writing a good background story for my witch Asenath, this is disappointing.

@Gnaeus: A wonderful idea, but I doubt that would increase my popularity with the DM. :smalltongue:

[Honest Tiefling]

The Inquisitor is a bit of a skill-monkey, like the hunter. It's a spellcaster, but not like the wizard. It has some of the flavor of a paladin, but you can be whatever alignment you want.

Else, I'll do hunter and just make your animal companion a wolf and RP it as a wolfhound. Heck, in some points of history, people had pet bears, but these options might not be optimal.

[GrayDeath]

Why not try something else martial, to contrast the Wizard (if you ahve an Arcanist already another Caster is probably not NEEDED9.

I`d suggest a Warder (for the Intelligent Fighting Type.

[Florian]

@Rumo:

The Slayer class is eerily effective in that particular AP because you can tailor the abilities to the upcoming enemies and environment. It´s bordering on being a cheat mode.

[Rumo]

Thank you again for all that valuable input. The Warden looks interesting, but it doesn't seem to be listed among the classes permitted by the DM. I considered Inquisitor because I like the Teamwork feats, but it doesn't really appeal to me RPG-wise either.

@Florian: I looked into the Slayer, but I couldn't find any devil-specific abilities. Maybe I'm missing something. And there are already two characters who take rogue levels, making these aspects of the Slayer somewhat redundant. Can you tell me a bit more about the kind of Slayer build you have in mind?

[Florian]

@Florian: I looked into the Slayer, but I couldn't find any devil-specific abilities. Maybe I'm missing something. And there are already two characters who take rogue levels, making these aspects of the Slayer somewhat redundant. Can you tell me a bit more about the kind of Slayer build you have in mind?

It´s rather the limited nature of this AP that leads to a Slayer or Ranger being highly effective due to the synergies that can be build up, the Slayer even more so.
Pick 3x Terrain Mastery trick (Urban, Underground, Hell), 3x Seething Hatred feat (Human, Devil, Undead) and Extreme Prejudice.
Round that out by using a Greatsword, Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash and such.

Keep in mind that Studied Target also provides out-of-combat skill boni this way, more so when Terran Mastery comes into it. as certain checks will repeat during this whole AP and certain subsystems depend on them a lot, this can be highly effective.

[Barstro]

I considered Inquisitor because I like the Teamwork feats, but it doesn't really appeal to me RPG-wise either.

I find that statement a bit odd, since you expressed an interest in Hunter. They look extremely similar to me, except that the inquisitor does not get an animal companion (unless she goes with the Fur domain).

[Kurald Galain]

- Cackle has the following ruling, which seems to be official: "Once a creature has been affected by the cackle hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 1 day"

You could suggest to the GM to make this three or five rounds instead. This kills the trick of a witch cackling indefinitely to keep buff hexes online all day (which was already controversial), without affecting the witch's debuffs (which were never controversial aside from the Slumber hex).

[Psyren]

You could suggest to the GM to make this three or five rounds instead. This kills the trick of a witch cackling indefinitely to keep buff hexes online all day (which was already controversial), without affecting the witch's debuffs (which were never controversial aside from the Slumber hex).

If I had to houserule Cackle, I would just add "during combat." Now the Witch can cackle as much as she needs to, and even do so every fight that day, but not be screeching/caterwauling all day long.

It's not like that would be the first ability to recognize "in combat" in order to function (see also Style feats.)

[Rumo]

@ Florian: I see what you mean, that would be quite a bit of damage output. I'm not really sure that this character appeals to me, but then, I doubt that there's much left that appeals to me anyway. So I might consider it.

@ Barstro: The reason is that I like (as in personally like, can relate to) Hunters, and the same way dislike Inquisitors. If it were just for the game mechanics, Inquisitor might be alright with me.

@ Kurald Galain and Psyren: I even suggested to make Fortune unaffected by Cackle altogether. It's not going to change.

[Psyren]

I hope you find something you like then - between classes, archetypes and archetype combos, there's a lot of choices in this game. Good luck!

[Rumo]

I hope you find something you like then - between classes, archetypes and archetype combos, there's a lot of choices in this game. Good luck!

Thank you... one last try on my part, maybe someone here has an idea. I like to play classes that have a repertoire of "tricks", like the Aitches' hexes or the Arcanists' exploits. I wonder if it's possible to build a similarly fun-to-play character, possibly by multiclassing. There will already be an Arcanist, a multiclassing Warpriest and a multiclassing Magus.

I for example wonder it there is any way of making Arcane Archer work (by work I mean: not suck). Arcane class Wizard, Divination School, Foresight for happy prerolling. Favoured enemies humans and devils. It just seems such a long way until prestige class levels finally can be taken, and getting decent spells on my arrows would only happen very late in the campaign.

[Psyren]

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 4/EK +7 will get you +17 BAB (4 attacks) and 17th-level casting (9th-level spells) right in core. Throw in the Lore Warden archetype and you get more skill points for little cost. (You give up medium and heavy armor, but you probably weren't going to wear those anyway on a dex build.)

[Gallowglass]

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer 4/EK +7 will get you +17 BAB (4 attacks) and 17th-level casting (9th-level spells) right in core. Throw in the Lore Warden archetype and you get more skill points for little cost. (You give up medium and heavy armor, but you probably weren't going to wear those anyway on a dex build.)

I think this is a great and solid build.

But you seem to want something with a lot of "tricks" (by which you seems to single out arcanist exploits, magus arcana, witch hexus so I assume you mean class features like that rather than spells (the greatest and most bountiful tricks of them all)) and you seems to want the "feel" of arcane archer (magic utilizing arrow launcher) earlier than level 12-13.

That build has no "tricks" (based on the OP's implied definition). If you are not counting spells as tricks then Eldritch Knight is the anti-trick prestige class. And you aren't going to feel like an arcane archer until level 12 or so at the earliest.

I would maybe point to the Magus Eldritch Archer archtype: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-archer-magus-archetype. This is going to feel like an arcane archer from level 2 and if you take arcane strike as a 1st level feat, it feels like arcane archer at level 1. Plus Magus Arcana feel like tricks and there are several that work well with eldritch archer. Your big problem is going to be getting enough feats for a viable ranged build, but that's the problem with any archer that isn't a fighter or ranger or warpriest.

[Psyren]

I disagree with the "feel" judgement - the build I posted can in fact use a bow+magic together as early as second level, simply by taking one hand off the bow to cast. Sure you can't cast and shoot in the same round for quite a while, but you also get access to a far, far wider variety and number of spells.

As far as "tricks" however, I agree with you - an EA Magus build has more abilities that actually synergize casting and archery. But OP not only specifically asked for an AA build, he also specifically mentioned Wizard schools (specifically, Divination's prerolls), which a Magus doesn't get. Furthermore, my build gets 5 bonus feats, which is actually more than a magus gets and helps archery considerably.

[Gallowglass]

I disagree with the "feel" judgement - the build I posted can in fact use a bow+magic together as early as second level, simply by taking one hand off the bow to cast. Sure you can't cast and shoot in the same round for quite a while, but you also get access to a far, far wider variety and number of spells.

As far as "tricks" however, I agree with you - an EA Magus build has more abilities that actually synergize casting and archery. But OP not only specifically asked for an AA build, he also specifically mentioned Wizard schools (specifically, Divination's prerolls), which a Magus doesn't get. Furthermore, my build gets 5 bonus feats, which is actually more than a magus gets and helps archery considerably.

Good points. I certainly agree that your build is more powerful and , over the long term, going to far outstrip the Eldritch Archer. I guess I"m focusing on the ability to synergize by focusing the spell through the arrows, shooting and casting in the same round as being the part that "feels" like an arcane archer rather than a wizard with a bow.

[Rumo]

@ Gallowglass: You are right, the Arcane Archer doesn't offer any class features like Arcanist, Witch, Magus and Oracle do. (Arcanist and Magus are already played by others, Witch and my prefered Dual-Cursed are destroyed by nerf.) You are absolutely right that spells are the most versatile tricks, since they are more numerous than any of those class features, but I already play a Wizard in my other group. So going pure spellcasting again, without exploits, revelations or hexes, would feel a bit redundant.

@ Psyren: That's a good idea, thank you. I'm seriously considering it. My problem with it is that even though it is of course possible to wield a bow from the start, it rather looks to me like a Wizard/Eldritch Knight build with a splash of Arcane Archer. Whereas I would have liked a Ranger going Arcane Archer to make the arrows do cool stuff later on to be viable. Of course your build is much better than what I suggested, and I suppose the later AA levels aren't really worth it anyway.

Hmm, and is there anything else with interesting "tricks", class features, stuff that makes the character versatile and fun, that I might have missed? Maybe an interesting multiclassing option?

[Psyren]

AA has two solid class features in the first four levels actually - Imbue Arrow and Seeker Arrow. Gallowglass is correct though that those come fairly late.

If you want a bow-using arcane caster, AA, EA and Myrmidarch are currently your options. Well, you could stick a bow on a bard or something but there isn't a whole lot of synergy there.

If you broaden that to just "caster" though I think you get a few more options opening up, like a bow-using Warpriest or Hunter.

[Gallowglass]

...If you want a bow-using arcane caster...

bowcaster.

Great. Now I want to make a Jungle Yeti eldritch archer so I can call him a Wookiee Bowcaster.

[GrayDeath]

@ Gallowglass: You are right, the Arcane Archer doesn't offer any class features like Arcanist, Witch, Magus and Oracle do. (Arcanist and Magus are already played by others, Witch and my prefered Dual-Cursed are destroyed by nerf.) You are absolutely right that spells are the most versatile tricks, since they are more numerous than any of those class features, but I already play a Wizard in my other group. So going pure spellcasting again, without exploits, revelations or hexes, would feel a bit redundant.

@ Psyren: That's a good idea, thank you. I'm seriously considering it. My problem with it is that even though it is of course possible to wield a bow from the start, it rather looks to me like a Wizard/Eldritch Knight build with a splash of Arcane Archer. Whereas I would have liked a Ranger going Arcane Archer to make the arrows do cool stuff later on to be viable. Of course your build is much better than what I suggested, and I suppose the later AA levels aren't really worth it anyway.

Hmm, and is there anything else with interesting "tricks", class features, stuff that makes the character versatile and fun, that I might have missed? Maybe an interesting multiclassing option?


Depends.

if the Warder is not listed as allowed, ask your GM what Pathfinder Books he DOES allow, this will make it easier for us to give tips.
For your Information:; its in Path of War (the ToB Variant for PF, a great book btw, which I myself only recently got hinted at^^).

As for "Tricks": why not try a (ideally slightly houseruled) Warlock?
Lots of At Will Stuff, support and medium Damage, Cool.
Not very powerful though.

[Florian]

@Rumo:

Some time back, I did a "Angry Citizen / Rorschach" build based on that concept coupled with delivering hard Coup de Grace. Slayer (Stygian Slayer) VMC Monk using mostly Ninja tricks to do the job. As I let myself get talked into gm'ing (again), a player of mine got to play the character and it is pretty effective. We're now into the forth part of Hell's Rebells and the build has come together, he now thinks about mc'ing into 2 levels of Vigilante because it is thematically too fitting.

[Rumo]

if the Warder is not listed as allowed, ask your GM what Pathfinder Books he DOES allow, this will make it easier for us to give tips.

Seems to be basically what's offered here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes), minus 3rd party minus Paizo others minus whatever is decided to be too strong or unfitting for the campaign.

[Rumo]

@Rumo:

Some time back, I did a "Angry Citizen / Rorschach" build based on that concept coupled with delivering hard Coup de Grace. Slayer (Stygian Slayer) VMC Monk using mostly Ninja tricks to do the job. As I let myself get talked into gm'ing (again), a player of mine got to play the character and it is pretty effective. We're now into the forth part of Hell's Rebells and the build has come together, he now thinks about mc'ing into 2 levels of Vigilante because it is thematically too fitting.

Can you tell me more about the build? I have to admit that I don't even know what VMC stands for.

[Psyren]

Can you tell me more about the build? I have to admit that I don't even know what VMC stands for.

VMC stands for Variant Multiclassing (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/skillsAndOptions/variantMulticlassing.html#)

[GrayDeath]

Seems to be basically what's offered here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes), minus 3rd party minus Paizo others minus whatever is decided to be too strong or unfitting for the campaign.

"Paizo others"?


So basically you get all Core and Base Classes unless he thinks they`re toos trong (ergo he bans Wizards, Clerics, Artificers and Druids, does he not? otherwise there is no reasen to name his reason "its too strong", in medium levels with the Summoners Exception)? ^^

The Warder is froma third party, though the by far most "Core Book Quality" one if you ask me.
Maybe ask him what he thought of the original Tome of Battle, if he liked it he might allow its Pathfinderation.

[Florian]

Can you tell me more about the build? I have to admit that I don't even know what VMC stands for.

As Psyren already linked, VMC stands for Variant Multiclassing. You sacrifize some feats to gain class features from another class, in this case Monk.

The build route is Ninja 5 / Slayer 1+. VMC Monk is in for the scaling unarmed damage and the ability to pick up the better version of Stunning Fist. Cornerstone feats are Dastardly Finish, Merciless Butchery and Paralyzing Strike to finish it.
Supplementing feats are the Dragon Style feat chain, Horn of the Cryosphinx and the mentioned Seething Hatred and Extreme Prejudice.

Items resolve around AoMF, Lenses of Predators Gaze, Slayers Cassock and a lot of wands and scrolls that the Stygian Slayer archetype now allows without UMD.

Function is simply: Be invisible, position yourself somewhere you provoke an AoO, stunning fist, then CdG as a Standard action when its your turn.

[Rumo]

As Psyren already linked, VMC stands for Variant Multiclassing. You sacrifize some feats to gain class features from another class, in this case Monk.

The build route is Ninja 5 / Slayer 1+. VMC Monk is in for the scaling unarmed damage and the ability to pick up the better version of Stunning Fist. Cornerstone feats are Dastardly Finish, Merciless Butchery and Paralyzing Strike to finish it.
Supplementing feats are the Dragon Style feat chain, Horn of the Cryosphinx and the mentioned Seething Hatred and Extreme Prejudice.

Items resolve around AoMF, Lenses of Predators Gaze, Slayers Cassock and a lot of wands and scrolls that the Stygian Slayer archetype now allows without UMD.

Function is simply: Be invisible, position yourself somewhere you provoke an AoO, stunning fist, then CdG as a Standard action when its your turn.

I'll take a look at that. Problem is that I'm not even sure I have time to get into a concept that is new to me before the start of the campaign, and then there's of course the chance that a ruling will be made during the campaign in case something I do is "too strong". But I'm aware that stuff like that (tricky multiclassing for unusual tactical options) is exactly what I'd like and what I asked for.

The Slayer you suggested earlier is also interesting. Another thing I'm considering is a Divine Tracker with Good and Liberation. It's a pity that the good thing is a standard action, but 1D6 on every arrow is nothing to sneeze at, it's better than Gravity Bow and doesn't take up a spell slot. And maybe I'm missing something, but with the bonus for Favourite Ememy being 200% of the Slayer's bonus, and usually more arrows being shot than 2-H attacks being made, isn't Ranger even better suited for such an anti-humansanddevils-campaign?

Edit: Okay, I see that Seething hatred makes things level. :) So basically the Slayer is a Fighter with Favoured Enemy and some Sneak Attack. Wow. Well, I suppose if the DM doesn't let me play flavour, I might opt for power instead. :smalltongue:

[Rumo]

So what is better, Stygian Slayer or basic Slayer? Invisibility is nice, Gaseous Form sounds fun, spell use... I have absolutely no idea how useful that is. On the other hand I lose Stalker and two Slayer talents (seems to me that I get enough of them anyway). Oh, and heavy armor. Do I even want heavy armor when sneaking into peoples' backs?

Another question, what would you do with point buy 15, no less than 8 permitted?

STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 8, CHA 8?
Or STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA8?
Or STR 16, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA8?
Or something entirely different?

[Florian]

The actual gem of the Stygian Slayer is pretty well hidden: Being able to use all Sorc/Wiz lvl 0-4 Illusion spells from scrolls and wands. Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement make up the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency quite well.

Will answer later on the rest, gotta go and prepare lunch.

[Kurald Galain]

So what is better, Stygian Slayer or basic Slayer?
The basic one.

You can already be invisible due to being a ninja, and being able to use scrolls/wands gets expensive real fast (if you want to play a spellcaster, you play a spellcaster).

[Rumo]

The basic one.

You can already be invisible due to being a ninja, and being able to use scrolls/wands gets expensive real fast (if you want to play a spellcaster, you play a spellcaster).

But it's not going to be Ninja, my idea is to go 100% Slayer/Stygian Slayer, the build that Florian suggested earlier.
I also wonder how good an option Half-Orc is. Intimidate +2 and Darkvision at the cost of one feat. Doesn't sound like a terrible deal.

[Florian]

But it's not going to be Ninja, my idea is to go 100% Slayer/Stygian Slayer, the build that Florian suggested earlier.

We have a proverb there: "Jacke wie Hose" (Roughly: Same Difference). I mainly mc either Ninja or (un)Rogue levels in to stack Sneak Attack faster without having to resort to stacking the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.

But some important questions first:
- As this is for the Hell´s Rebells AP, did your GM hand you the Player´s Guide for it?
- Has the "Rebellion" system been mentioned that is going to be used throughout the AP?
- The campaign traits are important here. Have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- This AP makes heavy use of certain skills. Have those been announced and have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- WBL is not in use in this AP but replaced by certain subsystem. Have those been announced?

[Rumo]

We have a proverb there: "Jacke wie Hose" (Roughly: Same Difference). I mainly mc either Ninja or (un)Rogue levels in to stack Sneak Attack faster without having to resort to stacking the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat.

But some important questions first:
- As this is for the Hell´s Rebells AP, did your GM hand you the Player´s Guide for it?
- Has the "Rebellion" system been mentioned that is going to be used throughout the AP?
- The campaign traits are important here. Have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- This AP makes heavy use of certain skills. Have those been announced and have you talked with your fellow players about them?
- WBL is not in use in this AP but replaced by certain subsystem. Have those been announced?

Okay, that's a good idea. But I suppose multiclassing a few (I suppose three would make sense) Rogue Levels (Ninja is not allowed for purely cultural reasons) only happens after you reach Slayer 7 and obtain Swift Studied Target?

Regarding the campaign:
- Players Guide yes
- Rebellion System might have been mentioned, but I only joined recently and don't know anything about it
- Campaign trait ex-Asmodean :smallsmile:, no-brainer for me as it is powerful and just perfect for a good background story
- Skills... no idea
- No, but I don't really worry about that. If I have the bucks to buy a keenholy falchion +alot, good, if not also good (keep saving) :smallsmile:

[Florian]

@Rumo:

Ok, basics:

Like Kingmaker, this is a "slow" AP. Where Kingmaker did use the "Kingdom" rules, this one uses a mix of "Downtime" and "Kingdom" rules and a "turn" is one week.

Amongst other things, this means that "the Rebellion" is handled like a regular character, with character sheet, stats and the goal to level up and optimize some of its facets.
Of important note here is the fact that gaining and spending money is done via "the Rebellion" instead of the usual shopping or crafting sessions.
(For example, you will want to level up some traders to do the "make money" or "access black market" move to go shopping - Regular shopping is pretty crippled until you reach a certain point of the AP. Going by the AP specific rules, shopping has a hefty cumulative failure chance...)
Historian of the Rebellion and Natural Born Leader are extremely useful here.

So, with this in mind, one character should be able to manage to whole affair, another should be able to give boni to it, helping advancing "the Rebellion" to a point it is actually useful to you.

Usefulness here hinges on replacing regular WBL. What it offers is free skill ranks, free feats, free one use items, free crafting (up to a point) and giving you "Teams" to help with missions instead of regular items.

Teams are important as they do things that regular magic items won´t. Send in a team to research the secret weakness of a particular NPC? Do it. Weaken the guards, poison their food? Go for it, and so on.
One character should be able to handle teams for maximum efficiency.

There´s a couple of skills that are used over and over again and at least one character should max them out: Knowledge: Local, Diplomacy, Sense Motive. Perform: Oratory, Knowledge: History and Knowledge: Nobility also come up quite a lot for the really important checks you don´t want to fail at.

It´s important to note: No matter how good your characters perform, once the rebellion fails, it´s Game Over.

So, thoughts on traits:
Child of Kintargo: Allows for the Noble Scion feat and PrC. One noble house plays a significant role in this AP.
Diva in Training: Perform: Oratory....
Ex-Asmodean: Actually the weakest of the bunch as it doesn´t provide a AP-specific bonus.
Fed-Up Citizen: Only important for alignment-restricted characters.
Gifted Satirist: Weak.
Historian of the Rebellion: +2 to relevant rebellion checks. Quite powerful.
Pattern Seeker/Star Struck/Urban Sleuth: Mechanically uninteresting, but linked to in-game happenings later in the campaign. Powerful at what they provide when the time for it comes up.

So, check with your fellow players if someone already focused on that stuff (and how good at it), then we´ll can take a look at the final build and filling necessary holes in the line-up.

[Rumo]

Thank you, that's a lot that I didn't know about the campaign. The thing is, this is a group that has played together for years, and I'm the new guy. I have no doubt that they have already taken care of the jobs relevant for the rebellion. Ex-Asmodean is such a nice combat bonus, and besides, the story of having changed sides explains my otherwise problematic pick of Stygian Slayer ("crawls out of the darkest shadows to strike fear into the hearts of civilized folk", "merciless killer" :smallwink:).

Regarding my other questions, it seems to me that STR 18, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CON 8 is best, do you agree? And I suppose human is better than half-orc, as I want quite a lot of the feat a 2-H Fighter usually picks, and I don't have Fighter bonus feats. Still, darkvision and intimidate +2 is really yummy...

[Florian]

STR 18, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 12, WIS 8, CON 8

I´d either dump CHA more or reduce STR one point and shift that over to a higher CON. Human has the nice FCB of adding 1/6 slayer talent, which you can convert into bonus feats, so you should find a way to ramp up hp without the regular FCB.

[Rumo]

Lower than 8 is not allowed. So I suppose starting with STR 15+2 makes sense. Well, it's nice to be a killing machine, but being able to survive when they hit hard also has its merits.

[Rumo]

What I'm still trying to work myself through is: How important is the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency? I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that in Pathfinder in the long run attacks made by decent opponents are almost auto-hits unless you're a Monk or you wear heavy armor and a big shield. So considering that I play a campaign that's supposed to enter very high levels, what good will medium armor do against the big damage guys anyway?
My other problem is: Wand of Mirror Image - yes, that's much better protection than any armor, but it's a standard action. Do I really have time in combat to use up one turn solely for defense? Especially since I'm the guy who wants to get into enemies' backs and create flanking situations.
I had the same problem when I was considering the Vanguard. The initiative bonus is really nice. And sharing a teamwork feat surely sounds fun. But again, that sharing is a standard action, and gets in the way with what the character really wants to do. The level 4 thing looks rather useless, and losing both Slayer feats on 2 and on 4 looks somewhat grim.

[Florian]

This AP will reach lvl 15-16 and a good chunk of EXP comes from doing quests, not combat.
It´s also broken down into individual quests instead of bigger dungeons, so resting and buff durations are not really an issue here.

Keep in mind that AC doesn´t scale by itself and you need more protective items besides the actual armor to keep it relevant (Amulett of Natural Armor, Ring of Protection, and so on). Also keep in mind that most melee classes without a class feature to negate the speed reduction of heavier than light armor suffer from being unable to engage and full attack as fast as possible.
As this is not a high-DEX build, using mithral doesn´t make sense, so the difference between light and medium will be 2 points of AC.

It´s been mentioned above that using one-use items is effective but expensive. Once you have reached a certain story goal, there will be "supply packets" before each quest, a parcel of one-use items to burn quick and fast.

[Kurald Galain]

What I'm still trying to work myself through is: How important is the loss of Medium Armor Proficiency? I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that in Pathfinder in the long run attacks made by decent opponents are almost auto-hits unless you're a Monk or you wear heavy armor and a big shield.
Or unless your primary ability is dexterity. Oddly enough, heavy armor actually gives a worse AC than light armor plus high dexterity.

The main downside of medium armor is the lowered movement rate. I wouldn't miss it except on a character with poor dex.

[Florian]

Or unless your primary ability is dexterity. Oddly enough, heavy armor actually gives a worse AC than light armor plus high dexterity.

The main downside of medium armor is the lowered movement rate. I wouldn't miss it except on a character with poor dex.

Unless your playing a Fighter, an archetype with Armor Training or VMC Fighter.

[Rumo]

I have decided to go for basic Slayer after all. The extras of Stygian and Vanguard look nice, but it really seems important to get all those Slayer feats (3x favourite terrain for example does eat them up quickly). And I would think that in the long run I want an Invisibility Ring anyway. I suppose going for a fighter-like build is sensible: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Furious Focus, several critical feats?

I was thinking that the Medium Armor problem isn't one when I wear mithral. And in the first levels, when I can't afford mithral, I don't have sneak attack, so no harm done.

[Florian]

Try this, then:
Human Slayer 12, Rogue 3.
FCB: 1/6 Slayer Talent.
Tricks: Assassinate, Combat Trick (x2), Slayer Camouflage, Terrain Mastery (x3)
Feats: Dastardly Finish, Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display, Extreme Prejudice, Gruesome Slaughter, Intimidating Prowess, Killing Flourish, Merciless Butchery, Power Attack, Seething Hatred (x3), Weapon Focus (Greatsword).

Equipment to aim for:
Weapon: Headman´s Blade
Armor: Do-Maro of Broken Flesh (Buy as breastplate), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (Buy as regular helmet).
Misc: Slayer´s Robe, Lenses of the Predator´s Gaze, Boots of Friendly Terrain (x3), Quick Runner´s Shirt (x10), Headband on Ninjutsu.

[Rumo]

Try this, then:
Human Slayer 12, Rogue 3.
FCB: 1/6 Slayer Talent.
Tricks: Assassinate, Combat Trick (x2), Slayer Camouflage, Terrain Mastery (x3)
Feats: Dastardly Finish, Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display, Extreme Prejudice, Gruesome Slaughter, Intimidating Prowess, Killing Flourish, Merciless Butchery, Power Attack, Seething Hatred (x3), Weapon Focus (Greatsword).

Equipment to aim for:
Weapon: Headman´s Blade
Armor: Do-Maro of Broken Flesh (Buy as breastplate), Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (Buy as regular helmet).
Misc: Slayer´s Robe, Lenses of the Predator´s Gaze, Boots of Friendly Terrain (x3), Quick Runner´s Shirt (x10), Headband on Ninjutsu.

Thank you, that's incredibly helpful! But wait, no Furious Focus?

[Florian]

Thank you, that's incredibly helpful! But wait, no Furious Focus?

No need to.

Mostly, you´ll start either stealthed or unnoticed, therefore your first attack (or Assassinate) is against flat-footed. Full BAB class, high STR, WepFocus, no need to push higher.

Edit: Keep your economy of actions in mind. Until you hit 7th level, your first round of combat will always be a double move action, on to activate Studied Target, the second to move closer.

[Rumo]

No need to.

Mostly, you´ll start either stealthed or unnoticed, therefore your first attack (or Assassinate) is against flat-footed. Full BAB class, high STR, WepFocus, no need to push higher.

Edit: Keep your economy of actions in mind. Until you hit 7th level, your first round of combat will always be a double move action, on to activate Studied Target, the second to move closer.

Is that really worth it? My thought was that until level 7, my first round is usually a regular attack, and on second turn (if adjacent enemies are still alive) study+attack.
And I suppose Headman's Blade is the reason to go for Greatsword and not Falchion?

[Florian]

Is that really worth it? My thought was that until level 7, my first round is usually a regular attack, and on second turn (if adjacent enemies are still alive) study+attack.
And I suppose Headman's Blade is the reason to go for Greatsword and not Falchion?

Weapon Focus is in because that´s a prerequisite for some other feats. Headman´s Blade is a nice assassination weapon (based on a greatsword) and this build doesn´t lend itself too well for crit-fishing, not enough feats to be good at it.

Take a closer look at the recommended items and reread Studied Target. The stack of Quick Runner´s shirts give you a free more action 1/day per shirt and you can activate Studied Target as a free action when dealing Sneak Attack damage well before reaching 7th level (That´s why I recommend either starting with or dipping at least one level of Rogue early on to have a leg up with SA)

For practical purposes, you want to be mid to last in the initiative order. You´ve written that there´re already two fellow players with Rogue levels and, if I understood you right, at least one full caster.
The speciality of this build is dishing out melee-based debuffs and it can use all three steps of intimidation up to the "cowering" condition, ending larger fights for all practical purposes.
So you´ll want to start combat with Dazzling Display to give the Rogues time to get in flanking position and the caster has room for some area spells, then charge in the second round to flank with SA and activate ST for free. Once you drop something, Killing Flourish and/or Merciless Butchery activate for another round of intimidation.

[Rumo]

Okay, I looked at every single feat, trick and magic item. And I have to say that I really like the idea behind the concept, because it involves not only fighting, but also debuffing. It makes the whole setup much less single-minded.
Still I am wondering how well this intimidation tree works in practice. I mean, I have no doubt that it can work well, as more experienced players than me apparently put it to good use. But take for example the Disheartening Display: If it would read "If you successfully use Dazzling Display or Killing Flourish...", I would immediately get it. As it is, it seems to me that it might get in the way of me killing enemies. I imagine this situation: They are succeeding at either the first or the second save, I have wasted some turns making threatening gestures with my sword, and my teammates ask me: "Why don't you just go ahead and kill them?" I can deal more damage than anyone in the group, but instead I spend full actions on debuffing attempts.

It's also a pity that Intimidate is not one of the skills bolstered by Favourite Terrain. But I suppose getting 50% Improved Initiative and +2 on four skills, two of which are Perception and Stealth, should make it worthwhile.

[Rumo]

Sorry, I noticed that my noob assumptions about saves being made against Intimidate is nonsense. So it is kind of an attack and you can get higher stages of intimidation by rolling well immediately. That makes it more interesting of course.

[Florian]

@Rumo:

There is no save. Intimidate follows a fixed formula to generate the DC (10+HD+WIS mod) and that´s pretty much it.
Fear effects are cumulative. Hit a target more than once and they move to the next worse condition, accumulating mali along the way. So Shaken > Frightened > Panicked > Cowering.

Edit: Terran Mastery stacks up. Take it thrice and it will be +6/+4/+2 (or +4/+4/+4). Wearing the right Boots of Friendly Terrain will add another +2 to it in the specific terrain.

[Psyren]

@Rumo:

There is no save. Intimidate follows a fixed formula to generate the DC (10+HD+WIS mod) and that´s pretty much it.
Fear effects are cumulative. Hit a target more than once and they move to the next worse condition, accumulating mali along the way. So Shaken > Frightened > Panicked > Cowering.

While the latter is true, Intimidate specifically does not stack:

"Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition."

There are ways to use Intimidate to get a target above Shaken however, e.g. the Skill Unlock version, or intimidating to shaken and then using a different fear effect after that.

[Florian]

Not relevant due to the nature of Slayer-only feats that allow stacking.
It´s the strength of the Slayer and Vigilante to be able to do just that.

[Rumo]

Yes, I understand that now. And I see that the cumulative boni from Favoured Terrain are nice and worth more than what a feat usually gives (+2 Initiative is worth half a feat, +8 Skill points in mostly good skills is certainly worth more than the other half. So it's picked on general grounds because it's good, not because it synergizes in any specific way with the Intimidate skillset.
I still wonder how easy it is to win the Intimidate checks at a regular basis. Maybe I should invest more in CHA? Like STR 14+2, DEX 12, CON 14, INT 10, CHA 14? That would be Intimidate 15 at level 10, as opposed to Intimidate 12 if I dump CHA. Quite a difference if pushing them to cowering status is a goal...

[Florian]

Keep two things in mind:
Intimidating Prowess lets you add both, STR and CHA to Intimidate at the same time.
(Shifting points from STR to CHA is a zero-sum game here and STR is the overall better attribute)
Once you hit level 7, the Stalker class feature will add the Studied Target bonus to Intimidate as well. (The Lenses will add 4 virtual levels to that once you acquire them, beefing up that bonus as well)

[Rumo]

True, but my suggestion would shift 1 point of STR towards 4 points of CHA (and 2 INT -> 2 CHA). And it seems to me like you can never have enough Intimidate anyway, with the appearance of higher devils certainly being just a matter of time. And Pit Fiends or Cornugons probably not being easily impressed by puny humans. :smallwink:

I was also thinking of this advice from the campaign manual: Take note that Hell’s Rebels has strong themes of political intrigue and puts the PCs into the roles of being leaders of a rebel group, the Silver Ravens. As a result, Charisma is a more important ability score in this Adventure Path than most [...]

I have to admit I'm still a bit concerned about the action economy. Turn 1: My initiative is rather high thanks to all these favoured terrains. But what am I going to do with it? For Dazzling Display to be worth spending a full-round action it seems to me like I need to hit at least 2 opponents. But from my humble experience, having 2 opponents within 30 (or to be more exact 35) feet at the start of a combat is not happening all the time. So do I wait for them to come? Do I position myself somehow for a turn 2 Dazzling Display? Or a turn 2 Sneak Attack? If the latter, wouldn't it then be better to go for Cornugon Smash and intimidate the guy while killing him? I mean, I'm not always in the middle of a crowd of 10+ weak-willed soldiers who will all panick at the sight of my muscle+sword display.

[Florian]

I was also thinking of this advice from the campaign manual: Take note that Hell’s Rebels has strong themes of political intrigue and puts the PCs into the roles of being leaders of a rebel group, the Silver Ravens. As a result, Charisma is a more important ability score in this Adventure Path than most [...]

Happens, yes. Diplomacy is a thing and a Half-Elf (Skill Focus: Diplomacy) in a high CHA class is practically a must-have. The question rather is whether a combat-focused class can and should actually go really deep into this topic.
Edit: Keep in mind that one of the early bonus feat choices is Persuasive...


I have to admit I'm still a bit concerned about the action economy. Turn 1: My initiative is rather high thanks to all these favoured terrains. But what am I going to do with it? For Dazzling Display to be worth spending a full-round action it seems to me like I need to hit at least 2 opponents. But from my humble experience, having 2 opponents within 30 (or to be more exact 35) feet at the start of a combat is not happening all the time. So do I wait for them to come? Do I position myself somehow for a turn 2 Dazzling Display? Or a turn 2 Sneak Attack? If the latter, wouldn't it then be better to go for Cornugon Smash and intimidate the guy while killing him? I mean, I'm not always in the middle of a crowd of 10+ weak-willed soldiers who will all panick at the sight of my muscle+sword display.

Most combat happens indoors in urban environment with a lot of mooks at hand. If your group is cool with it, do some "training" and engage with 2 room at once to save time and resources.

[Rumo]

Most combat happens indoors in urban environment with a lot of mooks at hand. If your group is cool with it, do some "training" and engage with 2 room at once to save time and resources.

I have to admit that I don't understand this. What kind of training do you mean, and what's 2 room at once?
I suppose I need to talk to our Bard. If he is planning on using many fear effects, going for Disheartening Display might be very strong. Otherwise it seems to me that Dreadful Carnage is worth considering. Kill one guy with a powerful sneak attack, make everyone else freeze in shock.

[Florian]

I have to admit that I don't understand this. What kind of training do you mean, and what's 2 room at once?
I suppose I need to talk to our Bard. If he is planning on using many fear effects, going for Disheartening Display might be very strong. Otherwise it seems to me that Dreadful Carnage is worth considering. Kill one guy with a powerful sneak attack, make everyone else freeze in shock.

"Training" (build a train) is an older term used when you actually want to attract more enemies to an existing encounter, maybe to hit harder with AoE attacks. For example, you have a house with three rooms, all have 4 enemies, it might actually be easier to get them in one single fight and just nuke ´em in one go while the buff durations still hold.