Alright guys, let's brainstorm some ideas for a primitive campaign!

[inuyasha]

Hi, I've been playing Pathfinder (and D&D in general) for a long time now. In an interesting change of pace, I'm going to be DMing a game for my players that takes place in a very primitive world, and there are a few other changes. The first, most major change is that the class list is as follows:
Mundanes
Barbarian
Fighter
Ranger*
Rogue
*Their weak spellcasting is getting refluffed as "hunter's tricks" which is something I usually do. Yes I know about the spelless ranger archetype.

Magical types
Oracle
Summoner*
Sorcerer
Bard
*This one's still up for debate, but it'll probably be included.

My reasoning for these changes is that no classes involving rigorous study or training are allowed, as well as the fact that there are no true "gods" in this setting, with magic being a very vague force, and divine magic being very animistic in nature. Also this leaves all of the casters being Charisma based, which I think will be just fine.

And yes, I know there's probably some major balance issues that I'm not accounting for, but most important with my group and I is that everyone should have a good time, the rules are merely guidelines. They also are on board with this, so that's pretty cool too.


Another extremely important change is that there is no "currency" I.E. no coins. There will be trade goods, gems, magic items, and even art that could include gold, but no legitimate coinage to speak of.

Humanoid tribes are few and far between, the largest of settlements are "villages" and are fairly xenophobic and homogeneous in nature. Superstition rules over all, scary things live in the wilderness, so few leave the comforts of family and home besides the hunters and gatherers that find food. The PCs are going to be nomads, a melting pot of people sticking together in this crazy world.

Technology is stone age with some very early bronze age aspects. I'll be using the Pathfinder rules for primitive weapons extensively.

There are some things I'm still working out, but one thing I know is that the world is this way because in "Ancient Times" the world was sent back to a primitive time period due to a very uber-mythic evil druid.

I guess what I'm looking for are references and good places to research life, technology, and other things from this period of human history. Also I suppose I sort of wanted to tell some people about this idea, as The Playground is usually a good place for that.

Sourcebook-wise (not counting bestiaries) I'm trying to restrict myself to books on the following list, though I suppose I will take suggestions from other books if you guys make them.

Core Rulebook
Advanced Race Guide
Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Combat
Gamemaster's Guide
Familiar Folio

I don't really want to get into Psionics or Occult, or any other alternate magic systems.

Thanks for reading this guys!

[Honest Tiefling]

The summoner should get changed/refluffed so that their eidolon is a minor spirit granted by spirits. I doubt that there's much of a concept of planes, anyway. Maybe the ethereal as some sort of spiritwalking/dreamwalking state? Heck, they could be fluffed as sharing their own soul with a spirit so it can wander around and do things. Tons of possibilities here!

Also, why no witches or druids? Witches don't study, they commune with a patron that could very well be a fell spirit. And witches are such an old part of folklore anyway, even from ancient times. Druids...Well, they can be spirit druids quite easily, and the various animal types of druids can be played as having an animal Totem.

May I also suggest the Hybrid classes from the Advanced Class Guide? The Shaman, Hunter, and Skald all seem thematically appropriate, after all. The Slayer works well as a spell-less ranger.

[inuyasha]

The summoner should get changed/refluffed so that their eidolon is a minor spirit granted by spirits. I doubt that there's much of a concept of planes, anyway. Maybe the ethereal as some sort of spiritwalking/dreamwalking state? Heck, they could be fluffed as sharing their own soul with a spirit so it can wander around and do things. Tons of possibilities here!

Also, why no witches or druids? Witches don't study, they commune with a patron that could very well be a fell spirit. And witches are such an old part of folklore anyway, even from ancient times. Druids...Well, they can be spirit druids quite easily, and the various animal types of druids can be played as having an animal Totem.

May I also suggest the Hybrid classes from the Advanced Class Guide? The Shaman, Hunter, and Skald all seem thematically appropriate, after all. The Slayer works well as a spell-less ranger.
I decided against witches and druids in favor of a Nature Mystery Oracle, so that all magic could stay Charisma based. Perhaps it's silly, but I thought it would be sort of an interesting thing to have all magic be based on your force of personality. And the "fell spirit" could be replicated by the fact that I'm going to bring up the Familiar Folio as an option to my players this time around, so they might choose to do that.

I've yet to get into the Advanced Class guide stuff yet because I've heard multiple things about the book that don't make me too excited for it, like that it suffers from power creep and that it makes some of the existing core options obsolete, which I completely understand. I value the classes from core quite well for their simplicity, and I think that some of those hybrid classes ruin that a little, making concepts that were once clever multiclasses/archetypes into something you can simply take a level in and be done with.

That's just my opinion though, so I honestly don't know.

As far as planes go, I was thinking that they would exist, but due to the evil druid in Ancient Times doing their thing, there was a sudden surge of souls going to the afterlife, but since there are much fewer on the material plane, the gods have lost their power, instead becoming simply powerful outsiders (akin to demon lords). Also, I'm thinking that since there are much fewer humanoid creatures than before, the rate of souls going into the outer planes now is much smaller, so the outsiders basically have to work with what they got in that surge, some of them going increasingly feral and brutal in their acquisition of new souls as a result.

Your ideas to change the Eidolon are much appreciated though, as they make a lot of sense. And though I won't be actually "changing" the Ethereal, I'm thinking that maybe the inhabitants of the material plane will think of it like you describe.

[Honest Tiefling]

Then I recommend only adding in particular classes from the Advanced Class Guide, not the whole dang thing. If you value the simplicity of the core classes, wouldn't you value the simplicity of taking these classes to fulfill a certain concept? As a player, I enjoy hybrid classes and often get frustrated trying to finagle the core classes into what I want. Your players might feel differently, so what was their reaction to the list? The slayer was mentioned for a reason, as it makes for a fine spell-less ranger with less hassle then trying to take that away from the ranger.

You could also just make other classes into charisma casters. Give them the sorcerer progression and have them use CHA. The Nature Oracle in my opinion, plays differently from a druid. Druids tend to be on the more control side of things, and people will probably consider turning into a bear at some point. (If they do not, I am disappointed in your group.)

I like the idea of the mortals viewing it that way, since they don't have the lore or tools to explore it. A question is, how much do these spirits know and where did they come from?

[inuyasha]

Then I recommend only adding in particular classes from the Advanced Class Guide, not the whole dang thing. If you value the simplicity of the core classes, wouldn't you value the simplicity of taking these classes to fulfill a certain concept? As a player, I enjoy hybrid classes and often get frustrated trying to finagle the core classes into what I want. Your players might feel differently, so what was their reaction to the list? The slayer was mentioned for a reason, as it makes for a fine spell-less ranger with less hassle then trying to take that away from the ranger.

You could also just make other classes into charisma casters. Give them the sorcerer progression and have them use CHA. The Nature Oracle in my opinion, plays differently from a druid. Druids tend to be on the more control side of things, and people will probably consider turning into a bear at some point. (If they do not, I am disappointed in your group.)

I like the idea of the mortals viewing it that way, since they don't have the lore or tools to explore it. A question is, how much do these spirits know and where did they come from?
About the casters, I'll consider it... and my players do like the ability to turn into bears...

I was thinking that a lot of the "spirits" are really going to be based off of personal belief, for example, an oracle of fire gets power from fire because that's what he sees power in and thus he chooses to explore that himself. Nobody really knows for sure whether there's actually power in a fire or not, but to the oracle in question, it is there and they're able to harness it. With this concept being applied, I originally thought of the Eidolons in this campaign being like the concept of the tulpa, a being constructed from the mind and soul of the Summoner for his own purposes

[Honest Tiefling]

Could also go with ancestor spirits. That's a popular motif. Or, some are ancestor spirits and some are 'spirits' and the two groups are going to war over it?

[inuyasha]

Could also go with ancestor spirits. That's a popular motif. Or, some are ancestor spirits and some are 'spirits' and the two groups are going to war over it?

That could be another important thing too! Perhaps the ancestor spirit would be a good explanation for if someone wanted to play a Synthesist?

[Honest Tiefling]

Nothing like Grandma helping you become a killing machine while complaining about the lack of great-grandchildren. I think that would be quite good, through some people might want to have it be animal spirits.

[inuyasha]

Nothing like Grandma helping you become a killing machine while complaining about the lack of great-grandchildren. I think that would be quite good, through some people might want to have it be animal spirits.

Hah! And yeah, definitely. I like to leave the descriptive things like that ultimately up to the player, but I'd still bring it up as a possibility.

[Elricaltovilla]

No Skald (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald)? It's a barbarian/bard "hybrid" (I hate that stupid marketing term) class. But it's practically ideal for a primitive era game.

[inuyasha]

No Skald (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald)? It's a barbarian/bard "hybrid" (I hate that stupid marketing term) class. But it's practically ideal for a primitive era game.

Well, again, I would rather not use the hybrid classes for reasons described above. ALSO, one thing that I probably should have mentioned earlier is that those listed sources are books that I happen to have already bought, and even though all of the material is available online, I'd still prefer to use what I have in my books because I don't want to feel like I'm wasting money (and I honestly enjoy a book in my hand more than using my laptop for everything). It's a silly matter of preference on my part, and the PRD and the PFSRD are both immensely helpful tools when I'm in a bind, but I tend not to rely on them too much.

I think that a Skald type character can easily be made by someone taking the bard class with the Savage Skald archetype, and as I said above, I don't quite like the hybrid classes because they pretty much invalidate archetypes, classes, and creative uses of both that already existed beforehand.

[Feint's End]

I think that a Skald type character can easily be made by someone taking the bard class with the Savage Skald archetype, and as I said above, I don't quite like the hybrid classes because they pretty much invalidate archetypes, classes, and creative uses of both that already existed beforehand.

See this argument against hybrid classes makes no sense to me. First you say that some of them invalidate classes from core (which they do out of the book because most core classes are really really bad) but then you say that you like creative use of classes.
So instead of giving the players an easy and fairly well balanced class they can pick up right away you require them to do book digging and build a combination of classes to accomplish something quite similar?

Its like saying I don't use hybrid classes because they make building a character too easy.

[inuyasha]

See this argument against hybrid classes makes no sense to me. First you say that some of them invalidate classes from core (which they do out of the book because most core classes are really really bad) but then you say that you like creative use of classes.
So instead of giving the players an easy and fairly well balanced class they can pick up right away you require them to do book digging and build a combination of classes to accomplish something quite similar?

Its like saying I don't use hybrid classes because they make building a character too easy.

You are right, my explanations are a little confusing so I guess I'll clarify a bit further. I like my D&D/PF to be weird, a little clunky, and I think that if something is published, it's a bad idea to invalidate that later (unless it's something needing to be fixed, as is the purpose of errata), and I honestly don't like it when people consider the core classes bad because my gaming style is very different from others. I've never had to deal with min-maxers, very few powergamers in general, and even they weren't that bad. Action types are next to forgotten sometimes, and even though many consider the fighter, monk, and rogue to be bad, all that really matters in my games (those I've participated in as a player and as a DM) is that everyone have a good time doing what they do, and I honestly like it more when you can twist what you've been given into a desired shape (using races, feats, and archetypes) than to create something entirely new (I.E. the hybrid classes). This also encourages multiclassing a little bit more if so desired, which is something that has existed since the beginning but is often forgotten in pathfinder for the extra cool rewards and capstones.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'd consider adding the witch class to the mix. They can be flavored pretty primitively; indeed, they're almost like a primitive wizard, using spooky powers and nebulous patrons rather than studying dusty tomes; there's even a 'witch doctor' archetype out there if I recall correctly.

It's also probably more trouble than it's worth, but the Words of Power variant in Ultimate Magic is supposed to be the 'ancestor' to 'modern' spell casting. You could use Words of Power to simulate a more primal feel to magic.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'd also recommend adding Skald, Hunter, and Witch. Also, Bloodrager and Shaman; the former is a good counterpoint to sorcerers, and the latter doesn't even require tweaking for their spells, since they literally get them from animistic spirits already. Brawlers as well; they don't have the spiritualism of the monk, but are just as punchy. The OA classes are fun; the Psychic, Occultist, and Mesmerist might be a bit too modern for your tastes, but Medium (channels spirits of legends), Kineticist (elemental user that isn't an actual spellcaster) and Spiritualist (pet class like summoner, but with a phantom) might be interesting.

I understand wanting to keep all the spellcasting classes charisma-based, but I think it creates a mechanical and thematic gap: no classes have Intelligence as a primary or even secondary stat encourages the party to be... Well, dumb. When our so-called primitive ancestors had to be smart. As-is, no character is directly rewarded for being smart. And, in addition to that, thematically it means that with the exception of bards, nobody can use magic if they aren't born with it.

Another thing: why exactly are druids missing? Since they are the most suited for this type of campaign?

[Cyrocloud]

The only two classes from the core that I think I would add would be Cavalier (mainly for the mammoth rider prestige class) and Witch (Especially Scarred Witch Doctor) because they are primitive and spirity. Some archetypes of the Inquisitor may work (Sacred Huntsmaster comes to mind), have them be those who bind with animals and exact the tribes vengeance though their obedience to the spirits. I would also consider the charisma based Magus that is spontaneous. Definitely used the Unchained Rogue over the regular.

After that I'm gonna have to echo that Bloodrager, Skald and Shaman are the closest to perfect that your gonna get for additions to this list, and I'd argue they are better thematic fits then any of the spell casting classes you have on your list, out of the box. The Hunter is a spontaneous caster that forms a tight bind with an animal and ends up being one of the two (maybe 3 if you include Druid) pet classes in the game. Brawler I think would also fit to a certain extent and would give your players a decent choice for an unarmed character. Vigilante from ultimate intrigue may fit pretty well too as someone who dons the mask of his ancestors to gain power and others can't recognize him (Magical child might actually be a decent replacement for summoner here, which is something I never thought I'd say).

Going outside that you stated you didn't want occult but Kineticist (innate connection to the elements), Medium (channels spirits of legends into himself to gain certain powers) and Spiritualist (nerfed summoner who uses a spirit) all fit really well. The Occultist also has an archetype where he uses tiny elementals as his implements that I would work pretty well. There also doesn't seem to be as clear cut difference between arcane and divine in this setting. The best split would probably be arcane casters exert their personality over spirits to make them perform feats of magic, Divine listen to the whispers of spirits and commune with them to perform magic and occult gives part of himself too spirits in exchange for magic (be a pretty good explanation for the difference in components too, Arcane needs the most work to cast their spells and most often need components to lure spirits out to be commanded, Divine still need some components but has a focus as grease to convince the spirits to behave, and occult absorb spirits meaning they need full mental control to use the spirits they have taken in). So Arcane/Divine/Occult = Aggressive/Passive/Submissive

Also I'm unclear of what class APG straight up replaces? Like a few archetypes I can see but most of those archetypes were really just beta versions of the final class, and pretty specific. Like the slayer replaced a combat focused rogue, and investigator a skilled focused one, but after unchained came out they all really have their spot. Shaman is weaker than witches, I guess they are more versatile than oracles, but don't really fill the niche. Aracanists are bull****, but again thematically pretty different than sorcerers. Skalds are only better than bards if everyone in the party is melee. Brawlers are better than monks (low bar), but again unchained fixed that. Swashbucklers suck, Hunters are just "the" animal companion class. Warpriests are really just an alternative to combat focused clerics, or to be a different alignment paladin. So at the end of the day I guess I'm just saying the only classes made obsolete were considered the two worst in the game and got patched up in unchained so they are no longer obsolete.