Kineticist questions

[thecrimsondawn]

So this is my first time looking at the Occult classes. Since 3.5, they have left a bad taste in my mouth, so I have been reluctant to even bother to read over them. However in 3.5 I was also a huge warlock fan, and to my surprise Kineticist is more or less just like warlock in many ways.

I do have a few questions however.

First thing I notice is that there is physical blasts and energy blasts. The energy blasts hit the touch AC making them a very viable choice, while the physical blasts hit the normal ac. Due to the med BAB progression, I feel that early and mid levels, hitting could be an issue. They allow weapon focus to be used for attacks with your blast, but of course you cant enchant your blast to make up for your BAB. Since both types go off of ranged, they both go off of your dex mod, so investing in a good dex score would be ideal I feel. From those if you with experience playing this class, how did your hit chance fare in practice? Are there any items I should know about that work well for this as well?

Second, this class is not a spell caster. There abilities are supernatural in nature, and from my understanding they are not effected by armor. Correct me if I am wrong here, but would it be a wise idea to take a dip in a class, grab a feat, or otherwise gain access to med or heavy armor to help boost your ability to survive? What about shields as well?

Third - I see it said a lot, "accepting" a burn. With gather power you can reduce the burn listed with a wild talent or blast, and the ratta says it cant be used on the utility talents, but what about the defense ones? Also, if it says accept a burn, can that burn be reduced to 0 with gather power?

Next, Metakinesis - It says you can accept burn to add something like metamagic to your blasts. Is this treated like a spontaneous caster and makes it a full round action, or is it like a wizard and you can just do it as if you had prepared the spell that way?

On the subject of "From the Ashes" Would this not make you borderline immortal, and quite dangerous to kill at that?

I cant think of anything else to add atm, but thanks in advance for anyone and everyone that helps me learn this class :)

[Arutema]

Here's my experience from playing the class since playtest:

Energy blasts hit touch AC, but have to deal with elemental resists/immunity, SR and its big brother: magic immunity.
Physical blasts only have to deal with DR.

While you are attacking regular AC with physical blasts, the attack bonus disparity isn't what people make it out to be at low levels. Until weapon training at level 5, you have the same chance to hit as a fighter of equal stats who is power attacking.

Once you get it, elemental overflow IS your enchanted weapon, effectively.

You are dependent on only 2 ability scores, Dex for your attack rolls, and Con for damage, burn capacity, and of course, HP. For melee, keep in mind that the kinetic blade talent works fine with weapon finesse.

You will often be pumping dex to the point where medium or heavy armor don't benefit your AC to a great degree. You can still "cast" in any armor, but look at the max dex bonuses on medium and heavy armor to decide if it will be worth the feat.

Any shield but a buckler is out, because you need both hands free to gather power, which is key for a kineticist.

Gather power only works on blasts, not utility or defense. It is often worth spending burn on defense at the start of the day just to pick up elemental overflow's bonus however.

Metakinesis doesn't increase the time required to "cast" the blast itself. But you'll often want to combine it with gathering power as your move action to avoid or reduce the burn cost.

From the Ashes only protects against HP damage. There's scarier things to die from by the time you have 9th level utility talents.

Speaking of items, stock up on Talismans of Life's Breath instead. Cheap, and probably available much earlier. None of the kineticist-specific magic items is that great, however. A Dex/Con Belt of Physical Might is the main item to aim for, along the usual AC items and cloak of resistance.

What element were you looking at starting with?

[GreyBlack]

If you're looking to play a Warlock, why not play the Warlock? It's now a PF archetype for the new Vigilante class. However, if you must play the Kineticist, I would suggest looking up the various handbooks on Kineticist. I suggest the one entitled, "Does sucking count as airbending?"



So this is my first time looking at the Occult classes. Since 3.5, they have left a bad taste in my mouth, so I have been reluctant to even bother to read over them. However in 3.5 I was also a huge warlock fan, and to my surprise Kineticist is more or less just like warlock in many ways.

I do have a few questions however.

First thing I notice is that there is physical blasts and energy blasts. The energy blasts hit the touch AC making them a very viable choice, while the physical blasts hit the normal ac. Due to the med BAB progression, I feel that early and mid levels, hitting could be an issue. They allow weapon focus to be used for attacks with your blast, but of course you cant enchant your blast to make up for your BAB. Since both types go off of ranged, they both go off of your dex mod, so investing in a good dex score would be ideal I feel. From those if you with experience playing this class, how did your hit chance fare in practice? Are there any items I should know about that work well for this as well?

Second, this class is not a spell caster. There abilities are supernatural in nature, and from my understanding they are not effected by armor. Correct me if I am wrong here, but would it be a wise idea to take a dip in a class, grab a feat, or otherwise gain access to med or heavy armor to help boost your ability to survive? What about shields as well?

Third - I see it said a lot, "accepting" a burn. With gather power you can reduce the burn listed with a wild talent or blast, and the ratta says it cant be used on the utility talents, but what about the defense ones? Also, if it says accept a burn, can that burn be reduced to 0 with gather power?

Next, Metakinesis - It says you can accept burn to add something like metamagic to your blasts. Is this treated like a spontaneous caster and makes it a full round action, or is it like a wizard and you can just do it as if you had prepared the spell that way?

On the subject of "From the Ashes" Would this not make you borderline immortal, and quite dangerous to kill at that?

I cant think of anything else to add atm, but thanks in advance for anyone and everyone that helps me learn this class :)

[Milo v3]

You can "enchant" your kinetic blast, there is a wondrous item that does it latter in the book. They aren't hampered by armour, but not sure it'd be worth spending a feat on and the class isn't brilliant with dips. You can only gather power to stop burn with kinetic blasts. Metakinesis takes no action.


If you're looking to play a Warlock, why not play the Warlock? It's now a PF archetype for the new Vigilante class.
That archetype has nothing to do with 3.5e style warlocks.

[Gnaeus]

I would add that it is not "Just like warlock". It is worse than warlock in almost every way. Damage is similar, but damage type is generally worse. Warlock invocations are generally better, or at least as good, but you can pick all the best ones. A warlock can fly at will. A kineticist can fly at will if they are an Air Kenny, and take a prereq power, which would suck worse if they had more than a handful of available powers anyway. Warlock has better out of book support without going to third party. Warlock is written in a way that does not make you want to stab yourself in the eye just to figure out what hoops you have to jump through to fire your nauseating blast without shooting yourself in the face with burn. Warlock lets you fire your blasts, with their appropriate blast invocations, every turn, without taking damage or exposing yourself to being disrupted. And warlock is a tier 4. (some consider it 3 on a very good day). It was not a class that needed a mountain of nerfs.

[N. Jolly]

If you're looking to play a Warlock, why not play the Warlock? It's now a PF archetype for the new Vigilante class. However, if you must play the Kineticist, I would suggest looking up the various handbooks on Kineticist. I suggest the one entitled, "Does sucking count as airbending?"
Yeah, the warlock vigilante isn't really similar. And as far as guides go, I'd just check out the guide in my signature, it's more recent and has more material added to it.

I can really agree that kineticist is a somewhat worse warlock. My guide should help answer a lot of your questions, as I did try to make it as newbie friendly as possible.

[thecrimsondawn]

@Arutema
I was looking for a druid archetype that focused on casting above wild shaping, but none of the ones really fit what I wanted to do. When I saw this class a couple ideas came to mind. The first being Air and Water. From looking at what they get, they have quite a few nice defense options from both, and for role play value I feel it would be very fun to play.
The next build I was looking at I have not finished doing my research on yet, but I am looking at Aether & Earth maybe. Earth on its own looks fun, but also feels lacking, while the telekinetic options are really just versatile in so many ways.
I was eyeing fire/fire, but as I was jotting a test build out for it, I got the feeling that it just was not what I wanted it to be. No matter what I did, an evocation wiz, or a sorc would be better in every way save unlimited blasts per day.

@Milo Do you know the name or what slot this item takes up? If there is an amulet of mighty fists equivalent, I will be all over that.

@everyone, thanks for the guide recommendations. I will be sure to check them out. :)

I understood that this class was not really powerful from the start, but for the game I am in, the visual displays and after effects of the blasts will help make the game as a whole more interesting. I need to cut back my builds some since I am often doing 3 times the dps of the other dps classes, and its making my DMs life hell throwing encounters our way, lol.

also, thanks everyone for your answers!

[GreyBlack]

That archetype has nothing to do with 3.5e style warlocks.


Yeah, the warlock vigilante isn't really similar. And as far as guides go, I'd just check out the guide in my signature, it's more recent and has more material added to it.

I can really agree that kineticist is a somewhat worse warlock. My guide should help answer a lot of your questions, as I did try to make it as newbie friendly as possible.

Arcane "spells," at-will eldritch blasts, heavily charisma based..... I guess I'm failing to see the difference outside of the limitations of Spells/day.

[Milo v3]

@Milo Do you know the name or what slot this item takes up? If there is an amulet of mighty fists equivalent, I will be all over that.
Kineticist's Diadem, takes up the headband slot but is rather expensive.


Arcane "spells," at-will eldritch blasts, heavily charisma based..... I guess I'm failing to see the difference outside of the limitations of Spells/day.
Well for one, you aren't meant to be using the energy blast as a main thing of your character (because it's really weak and they want you to use spells). You're a weaker wizard, who happens to have a scaling cantrip, rather than a guy who is a decent blaster. Also, the lack of "spells/day" limitation is the entire point to 3.5e warlock.....

[N. Jolly]

Arcane "spells," at-will eldritch blasts, heavily charisma based..... I guess I'm failing to see the difference outside of the limitations of Spells/day.

Really, the limit of spells/day is the biggest difference, and making it sound small in this statement isn't really being honest to the intent of the old Warlock. Mystic Bolt can't really be modified like arcane blast would and isn't intended as a main source of damage, making it more of a situational tool rather than a main weapon. Add in all of the vigilante baggage, and you have something that plays completely differently from the 3.5 warlock, even if they do have a few similarities.

[thecrimsondawn]

A mistake a lot of players seem to make when playing a 3.5 warlock is thinking they are a damage class without the limitations of spells per day, but that is quite far from the truth. While great to dip in, a pure warlock, not even going hellfire is a truly dangerous support class. The reason being is unlike nearly every other class in the game, you are not limited to daily allotments of skills and spells, so you have no need to hold back on your spell like abilities. This allows you to counterspell all day, be invisible as much as you want, summon monsters without end, control where your opponents travel with lasting AOEs, and so on. Even the lv1 Invocation that lets you shatter at will is immensely powerful. No lock, chest, or door can stand in your way, and anyone with weapons at lower level will have them broken with ease. This is why I enjoyed warlock. Even tho you lack the hp of your fighter, or the damage of your wizard, you are such a huge threat in a party that you cant be ignored, but at the same time you are quite hard to deal with. If a class is going to replace warlock, it would need the invocation equivalents to catch my attention. This class right here? This is more for visual effects and RP then damage, and I get a few SLAs out of it, but as said before - nothing too fancy sadly. This class has fun written all over it tho, and that is why we play games to begin with :3

[SorenKnight]

I would add that it is not "Just like warlock". It is worse than warlock in almost every way. Damage is similar, but damage type is generally worse. Warlock invocations are generally better, or at least as good, but you can pick all the best ones. A warlock can fly at will. A kineticist can fly at will if they are an Air Kenny, and take a prereq power, which would suck worse if they had more than a handful of available powers anyway. Warlock has better out of book support without going to third party. Warlock is written in a way that does not make you want to stab yourself in the eye just to figure out what hoops you have to jump through to fire your nauseating blast without shooting yourself in the face with burn. Warlock lets you fire your blasts, with their appropriate blast invocations, every turn, without taking damage or exposing yourself to being disrupted. And warlock is a tier 4. (some consider it 3 on a very good day). It was not a class that needed a mountain of nerfs.

The kineticist isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. It might be weaker in some respects, but it has better damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts, better battlefield control through Grappling and Entangling infusions, better ability to survive through Elemental Defense and Constitution focus and either access to the same movement options (Fire or Air can both fly), or different ones (Earth element can get earth glide and Water can get both swim and air walk).

I know Warlock can easily outdo Kineticist in pure damage if you go Hellfire Warlock with the proper optimization, but can it really out do Kineticist on everything else I've mentioned?

[NightbringerGGZ]

While you are attacking regular AC with physical blasts, the attack bonus disparity isn't what people make it out to be at low levels. Until weapon training at level 5, you have the same chance to hit as a fighter of equal stats who is power attacking.

Not quite true. The fighter has full BAB where as the Kineticist only has 3/4 BAB, so the fighter is at the minimum going to have a +1 advantage. It is more accurate to think of a Kineticist like a Core Rogue, where you have scaling damage dice but problems with actually landing a blow. That being said, the fact that you can safely dump Charisma and don't need a tremendously high Strength means that you can easily start with a Dexterity of 18.

You gain some accuracy bonuses as you level, but these are roughly on par with similar bonuses that other classes gain and you don't have an item that's equivalent to a masterwork or enchanted item, so your attack bonus will be a bit behind other "martial" builds at certain points. Overall though this becomes less of a problem at higher levels, but it can be very annoying at early levels when all you really bring to the table is the ability to attack.

My personal recommendation (what I do as a GM) is to allow an item that's the equivalent of AoMF for the Kineticist. That's a huge help right there, and a good alternative to the standard belt (gives the player some thinking to do). A couple of other minor tweaks, such as removing the "two levels lower" clause on the extra talent feat and letting you gain a new element at levels 5, 10 and 15 (instead of 7 and 14) made the class much more enjoyable.

[Gnaeus]

The kineticist isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

True. It is much worse.


It might be weaker in some respects, but it has better damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts

No, it has worse damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts. Most of those require 2 burn, so you have to sit there for a round gathering energy if you don't want to eat burn. And when I take my readied action to shoot you or cast on you, you lose your blast, AND take burn in addition to any damage I did. Also, a lot of those composite blasts have really awful damage types. Look at things like Ice Blast or Magma blast. You actually get hit once by the enemy's DR, and again by their energy resistance.


better battlefield control through Grappling and Entangling infusions

Aw heck no. Warlock has a blast that makes everyone he hits save or be Nauseated for a minute. He can use that on everyone he shoots. Entangling, at BEST, takes one standard action away from target. If they don't just ignore it. Grappling is worse. With its 3 burn, good luck getting it to work at all.

And then the Warlock has other crowd control options. Like taking that big enemy he just killed, and turning it into a skeletal tank that will block for him. Or at will evards tentacles.


better ability to survive through Elemental Defense and Constitution focus

Constitution focus would be nice, except for the stupid burn mechanic that makes you take unhealable, unavoidable nonlethal damage every time you try to do anything remotely cool.

Warlock has free DR (which does not scale as well as Elemental Defense), and free self healing, and free energy resistance to the 2 most commonly available types of energy in his campaign. And, and this should not be overlooked, a warlock can shoot a blast with a disabling effect and then fly around a corner. Kineticist shoots a blast with a weak effect, like entangling, and it takes a full round action so he then gets a 5 foot step. Assuming that he isn't trying to mitigate 2 burn, so he is sitting in the middle of the room begging every enemy to shoot him and make him eat a bunch more burn.

And THEN warlock gets invocations like Ignore the Pyre, or just at will Invisibility.


either access to the same movement options (Fire or Air can both fly), or different ones (Earth element can get earth glide and Water can get both swim and air walk).

They are close to equal in movement modes. Tragically, the Kineticist both has prereqs for those powers, and has to take specific elements to access them.


I know Warlock can easily outdo Kineticist in pure damage if you go Hellfire Warlock with the proper optimization, but can it really out do Kineticist on everything else I've mentioned?

Other problems. Warlock can freely pick the best powers on their list. Kenny has a class full of traps that he can't easily undo once he has fallen into them. For example, if I take Earth for Earth Glide, and Fire for Flame Jet or Fire Shield, I am then stuck with the inferior Magma Blast.

And then there is Deceive/Imbue Item, which can literally copy almost any tier 1 trick with a little crafting time.

If you removed Burn entirely, and followed it up by unlinking utility powers from elements so every kenny could pick from every power and elements only impacted blasts, you would get something close to, but still not as good as, Warlock.

[Arutema]

Not quite true. The fighter has full BAB where as the Kineticist only has 3/4 BAB, so the fighter is at the minimum going to have a +1 advantage. It is more accurate to think of a Kineticist like a Core Rogue, where you have scaling damage dice but problems with actually landing a blow. That being said, the fact that you can safely dump Charisma and don't need a tremendously high Strength means that you can easily start with a Dexterity of 18.

You gain some accuracy bonuses as you level, but these are roughly on par with similar bonuses that other classes gain and you don't have an item that's equivalent to a masterwork or enchanted item, so your attack bonus will be a bit behind other "martial" builds at certain points. Overall though this becomes less of a problem at higher levels, but it can be very annoying at early levels when all you really bring to the table is the ability to attack.


Note the inclusion of "power attacking" in my statement. Power attack trades 1/4 of your BAB for extra damage, which puts the fighter and kineticist on about the same level... until weapon training and greater weapon focus come along, so yes, kineticist does start to fall behind at higher levels. At level 7 when you expand your element, I recommend picking up whichever blast type (physical/energy) you don't have already. The ability to switch between targeting regular and touch helps you keep up. (Though not with the gunslinger, but that's another can of worms.)

Also, burn costs aren't as scary as Gnaeus makes them out to be. The base costs do look high, but you'll often be ignoring most or all of them by simple move action gather power and infusion specialization. The same is true of empower metakinesis, which can have its 1 burn cost reduced by move action gather power as soon as you get it. Sure, it takes a full round action, but so does full-attacking.

[Gnaeus]

Also, burn costs aren't as scary as Gnaeus makes them out to be. The base costs do look high, but you'll often be ignoring most or all of them by simple move action gather power and infusion specialization. The same is true of empower metakinesis, which can have its 1 burn cost reduced by move action gather power as soon as you get it. Sure, it takes a full round action, but so does full-attacking.

And if I hit you in the middle of your full attack, do you lose your attack? No. Do you take a bunch of unavoidable, unhealable damage? No. If it was just the move action, it wouldn't be nearly so awful. An archer can literally stand 5 feet away from you, eat your AOO, and continue putting arrows in your eye. He would rather not, of course, but at least he can.

Yes, the need to take a full round to be useful does suck, and it is one reason why the classes that can be useful as a standard or move and full attack are generally higher tier than the ones that can't. But no one readies an action to shoot a fighter when he begins his attack sequence, because that would be pointless. But any DM who ever watched DBZ and thought "I could murder that guy while he is shouting his move name" is going to annihilate you.

[Arutema]

And if I hit you in the middle of your full attack, do you lose your attack? No. Do you take a bunch of unavoidable, unhealable damage? No. If it was just the move action, it wouldn't be nearly so awful.

My example was just the move action to gather power. in my play experience, longer gather powers are seldom worth it. Keep in mind the move action gather power does not provoke AoOs, so it's just readied actions you have to worry about. If something is readying to disrupt your gather power, it's not full attacking, and you still get your concentration check to avoid burn.

[Triskavanski]

And if I hit you in the middle of your full attack, do you lose your attack? No. Do you take a bunch of unavoidable, unhealable damage? No. If it was just the move action, it wouldn't be nearly so awful.

Yes, the need to take a full round to be useful does suck, and it is one reason why the classes that can be useful as a standard or move and full attack are generally higher tier than the ones that can't. But no one readies an action to shoot a fighter when he begins his attack sequence, because that would be pointless. But any DM who ever watched DBZ and thought "I could murder that guy while he is shouting his move name" is going to annihilate you.

I really wonder what game you're playing. Cause Talking is a free action. Now many you've got a DM that ready's actions when people talk, or makes it you have to take full round actions to shout something out, but at least in my games talking is a free action. Maybe I'm playing the wrong game.

Likewise, You don't need to do full round actions to super duper power up all the time. If you were playing a wizard you wouldn't use your highest level spells all the time, and then start whining that you don't have aaaaany power at all cause you can't use the highest level spells aaall the time. While a Kinectist is considerably less capable than that class of bs, a lot of it is the same here too.

Whats more is that the amount of burn you take from your infusions decreases as you increase in level. By level 5, 2 levels before composite blasts, your burn is reduced by 1 for your blast. Then level 8, the level after composite blasts, again, it is reduced by 1. And again at level 11, 14, 17, and 20. That is 6 less burn damage by level 20. You can go as high as 9 burn reduction by then by taking a full round action, move action and finally blast as standard action.

That isn't including any other methods you might have to reduce burn or mitigate it to yesterday you.

[thecrimsondawn]

Do you think we can (or people have) request a revision of the Kenny to be put on a to-do list? They look very fun to play, but the points brought up about hitting multiple Dr/resists is a big deal. I feel some minor tweaks, and a few more feats or archetypes added in that change the way they play would fix it.

[Gnaeus]

My example was just the move action to gather power. in my play experience, longer gather powers are seldom worth it. Keep in mind the move action gather power does not provoke AoOs, so it's just readied actions you have to worry about. If something is readying to disrupt your gather power, it's not full attacking, and you still get your concentration check to avoid burn.

OK, so we agree that all the powers that take more than a move action gather are traps. Good. Thats part of why Kineticists are tier 5. Pick the wrong options, and you are even bad at combat.

You are wrong by the way. "If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it,". So, technically, the gather doesn't provoke. But the blast provokes. And since an AOO precedes the triggering action, my AOO happens before the blast that releases it, you blow up, then the blast fails. So, if enemy sneaky guy likes sneaking up on archer types and ganking them when they shoot, you are flat out worse than the tier 4-5 ranged options like fighter, ranger or gunslinger. Well, on the plus side, Kenny can get Tremorsense (if he picks the right element). But, unfortunately, in one more area where warlock beats kenny, Kenny's tremorsense needs a move action, so you can't use it and gather power at the same time, unless you eat burn for the tremorsense (warlock just gets blindsense 30 all the time at about the same level, and it isn't even one of their better powers).

Yes, they lose their full attack. Assuming of course that they are something that uses full attacks, not like someone using magic missile or scorching ray or a wand or something where they can do all their evil in a standard action. Or just a kobold rogue in the woods waiting to shoot his arrow at a priority target. Which might even be a tiny bit metagamy, if your trick didn't include a huge sound and light show which may as well have a billboard saying "shoot this guy!!!" But even if it is a full attacker, shooting you once, and disrupting your blast, and making you eat a bunch of extra damage seems like a pretty good use of an enemy mook's turn.

[Kurald Galain]

The kineticist isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

Gnaeus is correct in that the warlock blows the kinny out of the water in literally every aspect.

The classes are really nothing alike aside from the superficial fact that "they have at-will powers". The warlock is elegantly written, very straightforward to build and play, and has powers comparable to equal-level wizard spells that offer strong versatility and pretty good damage (or very good damage if you cheese it up). Comparably, the kinny is overly verbose and confusing, very hard to build due to numerous trap options or things that aren't allowed together, and while it has decent-but-not-great damage, it is laughably weak in terms of everything else. For example, most level-4 kinny powers are the equivalent of level-2 spells.

Don't play a kinny; play a witch if you want at-will magic, or any partial caster (e.g. bard, magus, inquisitor) if you want blasting power.


Do you think we can (or people have) request a revision of the Kenny to be put on a to-do list?
People have, ever since the playtest. They weren't listened to. I agree that the kinny is flavorful and it looks fun; it just turns out to be oh so very weak in practice, and a few minor tweaks aren't going to solve that.

[Gnaeus]

I really wonder what game you're playing. Cause Talking is a free action. Now many you've got a DM that ready's actions when people talk, or makes it you have to take full round actions to shout something out, but at least in my games talking is a free action. Maybe I'm playing the wrong game.

"Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her."

This is an obvious attempt to replicate anime signature moves. The problem is, that while you are standing there, sucking in water from 20 feet away and making a bunch of noise and generally making yourself a priority target, if you get hit, you lose your effect and eat extra damage. Thats pretty much the worst full attack mechanic in the game.


Likewise, You don't need to do full round actions to super duper power up all the time. If you were playing a wizard you wouldn't use your highest level spells all the time, and then start whining that you don't have aaaaany power at all cause you can't use the highest level spells aaall the time. While a Kinectist is considerably less capable than that class of bs, a lot of it is the same here too.

Yes, but if you aren't gathering energy regularly, your damage is mediocre and your everything else (other than some movement modes) pretty much sucks. Yes, you can walk around all day shooting 1d6x(L/2) blasts, and that's super. But you are still worse than a warlock, who could also do that, with a better power selection, with much easier rules mechanics, with better blast type, and who is usually put in T4.


Whats more is that the amount of burn you take from your infusions decreases as you increase in level. By level 5, 2 levels before composite blasts, your burn is reduced by 1 for your blast. Then level 8, the level after composite blasts, again, it is reduced by 1. And again at level 11, 14, 17, and 20. That is 6 less burn damage by level 20. You can go as high as 9 burn reduction by then by taking a full round action, move action and finally blast as standard action.

Hey, if I reach 11-14th level, I can actually use powers like a warlock, if the warlock had a tightly limited selection of which of his class powers he could take! Of course, at 12th level when I am pretending to be a warlock, the warlock has made a staff and is pretending to be a wizard. A knockoff copy of a tier 1 is better than a knockoff copy of a tier 4.

In other words, yeah, you make it to 20, burn is barely a thing. I agree. But if Burn makes a barely decent class worse 1-10, then is pointless 11-20, why is it there in the first place??? No one with any level of optimization knowledge thinks warlock is broken in a strong way before they start copying caster tricks. If you took it away completely, Kineticist wouldn't beat Alchemist as a go to blaster class. Burn gimps a class that doesn't need gimping, makes the class rules 3 times more complicated, and then becomes pointless at high level. Thats, like, truenamer levels of bad class design. There. I said it. Kenny's closest relative is not Warlock, it is Truenamer. Truenamer can creep into tier 4, if you fight through badly written rules and use the right optimization tricks, and maybe Kenny can also. But OMG why would you? There are so many better, easier classes that can fill that role without jumping through hoops.

[Kurald Galain]

Burn gimps a class that doesn't need gimping, makes the class rules 3 times more complicated, and then becomes pointless at high level. Thats, like, truenamer levels of bad class design.

I should point out that literally every kinny I've seen in play was either ineffective, or based on incorrect understanding of the rules, or in several cases both. "Ineffective" ranges from "clearly and visibly weaker than all his teammates" to "has so little impact on combat that he might as well not be there".

[Triskavanski]

The blast damage isnt just 1d6 per 2 levels.

You have 1d6+1+con+ other mods with an addition 1d6+1 per every two levels afterwards for the basic physical blast.

[Kurald Galain]

The blast damage isnt just 1d6 per 2 levels.

Yes, and?

It's still well below what any competent archer, barbarian, rogue, sorcerer, or magus would do.

[Gnaeus]

Yes, with physical blasts you will do a little more damage with a lower chance to hit.

[Milo v3]

My quick fix for kineticist is just:

HD: d10
BAB: Full
Psychic Sensitivity: Gains psychic sensitivity as a bonus feat.
Burn: Remove the line "A kineticist can't choose to accept burn if it would put her total number of points of burn higher than 3 + her Constitution modifier (though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control). "
Gather Power: Remove the line "If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost. "
Expanded Element: Remove the line "If the kineticist's expanded element is different from her primary element, she treats her kineticist level as 4 levels lower for the purpose of determining which wild talents she can learn from her expanded element."
Simple Blasts: Change physical blast damage to "1d8+1 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d8+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st.", and energy blast damage to "1d8 + 1/2 the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d8 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st."
Composite Blasts: Change physical blast damage to "2d10+2 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 2d10+2 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st", and energy blast damage to "2d10 + 1/2 the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 2d10 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st."

[Arutema]

You are wrong by the way. "If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it,". So, technically, the gather doesn't provoke. But the blast provokes....

This is true. However, if you are close enough to something to be in it's threatened area, you're probably better off pummeling it with a kinetic blade full-attack than provoking by making a ranged attack roll.

If the GM is continually throwing opponents you can't hope to spot with perception as a class skill and max ranks, then he is going to screw you over regardless of the class you play, and you should seek a new GM.

My suggestions for the "Unchained Kineticist":
* Add a physical blast to fire and an energy blast to earth and wood elements.
* You get both your element's blasts at level 1.
* Infusion specialization kicks in earlier.
* Magic items to support the class.

[N. Jolly]

Gnaeus is correct in that the warlock blows the kinny out of the water in literally every aspect.

The classes are really nothing alike aside from the superficial fact that "they have at-will powers". The warlock is elegantly written, very straightforward to build and play, and has powers comparable to equal-level wizard spells that offer strong versatility and pretty good damage (or very good damage if you cheese it up). Comparably, the kinny is overly verbose and confusing, very hard to build due to numerous trap options or things that aren't allowed together, and while it has decent-but-not-great damage, it is laughably weak in terms of everything else. For example, most level-4 kinny powers are the equivalent of level-2 spells.

Don't play a kinny; play a witch if you want at-will magic, or any partial caster (e.g. bard, magus, inquisitor) if you want blasting power.


People have, ever since the playtest. They weren't listened to. I agree that the kinny is flavorful and it looks fun; it just turns out to be oh so very weak in practice, and a few minor tweaks aren't going to solve that.

Personally, I think the biggest problem with the kineticist is that it just doesn't have the content. I'll stand by everyone else saying that burn isn't a great mechanic, like I'm not the biggest fan of it. But I don't think it kills the class. Still, it's needlessly complicated for the payoff, which isn't much.

I've done a lot to rectify the problems I've seen with the class with my Kineticists of Porphyra line, since as stated, it's flavorful as hell, but damn does it have some hurdles to jump in order to be a genuine T4. What I will say is that right now the content for it is far lower than the Warlock, so it's hard to compare an established class like that which came out early into the 3.5 lifecycle to one that hasn't even been out a year, especially with the differences between 3.5 and Paizo's release schedule.

It does sadden me to say 'wait until Paizo learns how to fix some problems and give some build variety', but that's all I can say as far as things go on a 1st party front.

[digiman619]

Honestly, if you want recreate a Warlock, if 3PP are allowed, I'd suggest using Drop Dead Studio's Spheres of Power. Their Destruction sphere has all the Warlock-y goodness without the black hole of suckitude that is the Kinetisist. Honestly, the Kinetisist is Pathfinder's 3.5 Soulknife; an intersting idea horribly, horribly butchered.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, if we're talking fixes, I'd suggest
You get two elements right from the beginning, and can take talents from either. This fixes the big issue that you cannot get talents X and Y on the same character, and that certain elements are severely short on talents.
Remove the restrictions that talents from expanded element, or from the Extra Talent feat, have to be X levels lower than you are.
Reduce the level for all talents by one, because most talents are the equivalent of lower level spells.
Remove elemental overflow entirely, because otherwise players just max out their burn right at the beginning of the day. Just add a bunch of static bonuses elsewhere.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Note the inclusion of "power attacking" in my statement. Power attack trades 1/4 of your BAB for extra damage, which puts the fighter and kineticist on about the same level... until weapon training and greater weapon focus come along, so yes, kineticist does start to fall behind at higher levels. At level 7 when you expand your element, I recommend picking up whichever blast type (physical/energy) you don't have already. The ability to switch between targeting regular and touch helps you keep up. (Though not with the gunslinger, but that's another can of worms.)

Also, burn costs aren't as scary as Gnaeus makes them out to be. The base costs do look high, but you'll often be ignoring most or all of them by simple move action gather power and infusion specialization. The same is true of empower metakinesis, which can have its 1 burn cost reduced by move action gather power as soon as you get it. Sure, it takes a full round action, but so does full-attacking.

I didn't count Power Attack in the equation because it could just as easily apply to the Kineticist (or Deadly Aim). I'd also note that due to the odd rules regarding Kinetic Blade, the Kineticist isn't able to provide flanking bonuses unless you arm him with a cestus or armor spikes... which is pretty dumb. In a scenario where both he and a Fighter have Power Attack, the Kineticist could wind up with the higher attack bonus due to flanking.

Personally I am a fan of the energy attacks early on, as they cut right through early DR and starting with a 1d6+3 isn't terrible damage when you're able to hit on 95% of attacks.

[Gnaeus]

This is true. However, if you are close enough to something to be in it's threatened area, you're probably better off pummeling it with a kinetic blade full-attack than provoking by making a ranged attack roll.

Did I remember to include kinetic blade on the list of things that Kenny does just a little worse than warlock? Why does that power have burn? Its like they looked at it and said "wait, if you could do this, at a reasonable level, with a rider effect attached to it, or empowered blasts, that would actually do meaningful damage. Nope. Can't have that!!!"


If the GM is continually throwing opponents you can't hope to spot with perception as a class skill and max ranks, then he is going to screw you over regardless of the class you play, and you should seek a new GM.

Every single character in my last 3 PF campaigns had perception as a class skill. Every one. It costs at most a trait. And yes, sometimes we fought sneaks with higher hide bonuses (it isn't hard to do).

So, if the GM has a grasp of tactics equivalent to my 10 year old, and understands how readied actions work or occasionally uses enemies with stealth, you should play a class that doesn't care much (like barbarian or rogue with uncanny dodge), or that has built in ways to tell if an invisible enemy is next to you (like a familiar/AC with scent), or that has a wisdom focus likely to be competitive with an equivalently optimized stealther, or maybe even a class that doesn't have "I explode if shaken roughly" as a class feature. Like any other class.

For that matter, "I ready an action to sneak up on him when he next begins to gather energy" should work like a charm. I'm not exactly sure what kind of penalty an "extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist" would have on a perception check, but it seems like it would be large.

I still think my fix would be
1. Remove burn mechanic entirely. All powers that have greater effects until burn is remove just use the more powerful effect.
2. Unlink all utility powers from element so any kineticist can take any of them, so element only changes class skills, blasts, and defense.

[Milo v3]

Did I remember to include kinetic blade on the list of things that Kenny does just a little worse than warlock? Why does that power have burn?
It's not like it takes burn after 5th level.

[Gnaeus]

It's not like it takes burn after 5th level.

Riiiight. But you see, if I want to put noxious blast on my eldrich glaive, I'm a freaking monster. If I want to put Entangling on my kinetic blade (a much weaker combo), I've got stacking burn in a situation where I probably don't want to be gathering power. If kinetic blade subtracted one burn from any other infusion that you used with it, that would not be overpowered.

[Arutema]

Riiiight. But you see, if I want to put noxious blast on my eldrich glaive, I'm a freaking monster. If I want to put Entangling on my kinetic blade (a much weaker combo), I've got stacking burn in a situation where I probably don't want to be gathering power. If kinetic blade subtracted one burn from any other infusion that you used with it, that would not be overpowered.

I'll agree that some of the added effect infusion are over-costed, which often makes them not worth using.

That said, sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you're forced to choose risk vs. reward. Just as a wizard backed into a corner has a better chance of making the concentration check if he doesn't try to cast his highest-level spell.

Spending burn to go nova isn't always a bad idea either, especially if it will push you to the next level of elemental overflow benefits.

[Gnaeus]

I'll agree that some of the added effect infusion are over-costed, which often makes them not worth using.

That said, sometimes you find yourself in a situation where you're forced to choose risk vs. reward. Just as a wizard backed into a corner has a better chance of making the concentration check if he doesn't try to cast his highest-level spell.

Spending burn to go nova isn't always a bad idea either, especially if it will push you to the next level of elemental overflow benefits.

When you say "over costed and often not worth using" I read that as "trap".

Yes, I agree that if you are a kineticist in melee, you will want to consider spending burn to go nova (although "go nova" here is a little optimistic.)

Lets say I am a Kenny 7. I spent an infusion getting kinetic blade, because I loved my glaivelock. So, I can, for free, attack with my blade. Say its a physical blast. Say I have 20 con. Level 7. Thats 4d6+4+5=4d6+9=average 23 damage if I hit (and if I don't do this often, str is a tertiary stat, so my attack bonus is probably terrible, around +5). That doesn't sound so bad, until you compare with options. Your party fighter, power attacking with his Greatsword +1 with an 18 str, hits for 2d6+6 (power attack), +6(str), +1 enhance +1 weapon group=average 21, but his to hit is +11. He will significantly exceed your damage. Your party Rogue, with his shortsword+1, and weapon finesse, is hitting for 5d6+1=average 18.5 per hit, but probably a +9 to hit, and he gets a free rider effect on every sneak attack.

So we full attack. Blast gets empowered (because we took a risk and gathered energy). 23x1.5=34.5. Still +5 to hit. Fighter gets a second attack. 42 damage, +11 and +6 to hit. Rogue is 2 weapon fighting. 37 damage, +7/+7 to hit, dropping 2 status effects for free!

So we nova. Maximized, we don't actually do any more damage than empowered here. So we will use a composite blast. 8d6+8+5=41 damage. Dang it. Still doing less damage than the fighter, with worse to hit. And we take 7 damage to do it. Ok, in for a penny, in for a pound and all. Nova more. Empowered composite blast. 61.5 damage. So, assuming we hit with our +5 (compared with +11/+6), we do 19 more damage than the fighter, and take 14 unhealable damage to do it, assuming that nothing interrupted our gather. 24 more points than the rogue, - whatever effect he can stack for free while sneak attacking, again with a lower to hit.

Above example assumes that Kenny spent one infusion on Kinetic Blade, with 20 con, Fighter spent one bonus feat on power attack with 18 str, and rogue spent one talent on weapon finesse and presumably another on a rider effect for his sneaks, with 18 dex.

So when we nova using limited use per day resources, once you consider the difference in attack bonuses, we are barely ahead of the fighter or rogue. But aside from the fact that we can only do that 4 times a day with our 20 con, we are also eating damage that makes our enemy's job easier, so if we miss, we are worse off than we were before. Fighter is T5 (not necessarily able to do anything well), and rogue T4 (generally useful but not particularly awesome at anything).

If we try to equalize hitting by using touch attacks, (assuming we can, because our composite blast will be based on our 2 elements so it could be a sucky type), damage drops to 8d6+2 for composite, average 30, 45 if empowered, 16 for standard energy blade, 24 if empowered. That looks even worse by comparison.

Of course, the typical Kenny will have a decent dex, so he can improve that with feats like weapon finesse. But then he is sinking resources into being a melee combatant, which he can only do competitively for a few rounds per day assuming he isn't taking damage at the same time. And the fighter and rogue both have more ways to improve their output and more resources to do it with.

That is so bad, I'd probably skip it altogether, take a gauntlet, and just withdraw if forced into melee combat. It's altogether ugly when compared with, say, a well built ranger, who can shoot you in the face point blank with the right bow feats. Oh, Jolly's guide points out that there is a good archetype for melee Kennys, which makes your melee fighting more competitive at the cost of most of your utility, which probably just further cements you into T5.

[Arutema]

Of course, the typical Kenny will have a decent dex, so he can improve that with feats like weapon finesse. But then he is sinking resources into being a melee combatant, which he can only do competitively for a few rounds per day assuming he isn't taking damage at the same time. And the fighter and rogue both have more ways to improve their output and more resources to do it with.

Kineticist isn't exactly a feat-starved class, so weapon finesse is worth it to "switch-hit" with kinetic blade.

You seem to overlook that you can full-attack with a kinetic blade (if you don't bother to gather power), which will give you more damage than an empower if both attacks hit (so use a touch blast then).

Granted, you don't have the BAB to get as many attacks as a fighter, but it is an option you seem to think the class lacks.

[thecrimsondawn]

Ok, thanks to the many views about the class I have come to the conclusion that it is in dire need of a rework. Since I do not know who is in charge of the added content, I plan to make my own revised edition with major changes.

I dislike the traps that where pointed out that I overlooked. I disliked how little SLA options they have with class features. and I dislike the repercussions they have to suffer doing something that nearly any other class can do with few limits. As such, a few ideas came into my head.

I am going to take a page from a dead MMO called Warhammer online. One of the classes had a sliding bar class feature where when you use one element, the bar goes in that direction, making that element stronger and your other element weaker. If you charged your bar too much in one direction tho there was a harsh backlash. The two ways to play that class where to balance your bar on one element and fight that way, or to alternate your elements to stay balanced.

What I plan to do is use a system sort of like that called overflow. Using an element will add a select amount of "charge" based on the element or blast used. The more points you have, the more bonuses you have related to that element, but they also come with opposing penalties. As you gain levels, the bonuses from said charge would passively increase. In addition to this class feature there will be another class feature that can spend these points on something sort of like the composite blasts.
This is just a brainstorm so far, and the current flow I see is paperwork involved, but dice can be used to keep track of the charge easy enough. Every gamer that players d20 games will have those or something like it to use.

I need some information tho for comparison. What counts as Tier 2 and tier 3 classes? If I try to mimic tier 1 and 2's I will end up with something too strong. If I try to mimic Kenny, I will end up with something too weak. As such, I will need to review the average hp, damage output, and class features of this class compared with others of said tiers.

[Gnaeus]

Kineticist isn't exactly a feat-starved class, so weapon finesse is worth it to "switch-hit" with kinetic blade.

You seem to overlook that you can full-attack with a kinetic blade (if you don't bother to gather power), which will give you more damage than an empower if both attacks hit (so use a touch blast then).

Granted, you don't have the BAB to get as many attacks as a fighter, but it is an option you seem to think the class lacks.

At level 7 it is an option the class lacks. At 8 you can, but hey, so can the rogue. As we saw, he is doing almost as much damage as your non-nova blasts (more damage than your touch blasts) but with more attacks, higher to hit, and rider effects on his attacks that don't hurt him. Yay, Kenny can continue running neck and neck with a class generally considered not very good at combat. Your un-empowered touch blast at 8 is 16/hit. The fighter at that level does 24/hit, before he starts using bonus feats.

I'm not really sure where the idea that Kineticist isn't a feat starved class comes from. Lacking any bonus feats, that level 7 Kenny has 4 feats. The fighter has 8. The rogue probably has 5 -7, depending on how many talents he wants to trade for feats. So by all means take weapon finesse. Then, aside from being incompetent at melee, you are that much less competent at shooting things. there are still more ranged feats than you have feat slots to take them with.

[Triskavanski]

If anything I have a problem with particularly with the Kinecticist, its just how.. confusing things are. I'm really referring to the Aether Kinetic when I say this, cause its the only version I really focus on.

Say for example you have some enemies who for whatever reason have taken it upon them selves to stand in a 3x3 square formation as your wielding a statue that is 6x6. You throw the statue at the enemies.. But by the rules, you can only hit one of them. So you go for the guy in the middle with your massive objection of Doom. Congrats! You hit him! Now what in the flame daddy flipping hills happens to that statue?

Does the games physics completely turn off, the statue no clips through the rest of the enemies and disappears in a puff of smoke and particle effects? Are around four of these troops suddenly weighed down now with an object that weights a few thousand pounds? At level four, taking that point of burn, you're throwing things that are just about the average weight of a car 10th level, you're throwing trucks.

Yet, smashing a Mack truck into someone's face, there really isn't any rules for it. All in all you did the same damage and effect as throwing ball of belly button lint at the enemy. Except the mack truck is in a state of both existing and not existing at the same time now.

[avr]

I'm not really sure where the idea that Kineticist isn't a feat starved class comes from. Lacking any bonus feats, that level 7 Kenny has 4 feats. The fighter has 8. The rogue probably has 5 -7, depending on how many talents he wants to trade for feats. So by all means take weapon finesse. Then, aside from being incompetent at melee, you are that much less competent at shooting things. there are still more ranged feats than you have feat slots to take them with.
What are these must-have ranged feats for the kinny after PBS & Precise Shot? They can't make use of rapid shot or many shot or far shot or ranged feint or even vital strike, deadly aim (& crit feats, should they live so long) isn't the most useful for them, snap shot is interesting rather than useful IME, weapon focus is nice to have I guess but not a big deal ... in some ways being feat-starved is something the kineticist hopes for in future products rather than something it is now.

[Kurald Galain]

Kineticist isn't exactly a feat-starved class, so weapon finesse is worth it to "switch-hit" with kinetic blade.

I think that's the third poor class or build that I've seen defended with the statement that "it's a switch hitter".

The problem with that is that (1) switch hitting is not particularly powerful or impressive, and (2) pretty much every class can be build as a switch hitter anyway.

[N. Jolly]

I think that's the third poor class or build that I've seen defended with the statement that "it's a switch hitter".

The problem with that is that (1) switch hitting is not particularly powerful or impressive, and (2) pretty much every class can be build as a switch hitter anyway.

This isn't taking into account the value of kineticist switch hitting.

Normal switch hitting involves two different weapons that both need to be upgraded to stay viable, while kineticist can switch hit with much more ease due to the resources towards both being more universal. An enemy closes the cap and you strike with the same (or greater) damage due to kinetic blade's attack style, while you can keep distance with others and use area attacks to deal with groups of enemies. I'm not in love with K. Blade having a burn cost, but I've shown how I feel about that in the content I've written for them.

Sure, you need gather energy to be working at 100%, so it basically turns it into a normal ranged character who's getting the best value out of a full attack, except you're dealing less damage to apply status conditions and battlefield manipulation to your blast. I do wish form infusions were more universal as a whole rather than being split the way they are, but I think a lot of the problems are being made bigger than they should be.

I do think that it should have been a d10/full BAB class, if only for the additional hit points.

[Kurald Galain]

This isn't taking into account the value of kineticist switch hitting.

Normal switch hitting involves two different weapons that both need to be upgraded to stay viable,
Come now, there's at least half a dozen ways around that.

Plus, there's the fact that switch hitting really isn't a powerful option in the first place, therefore being good at switch hitting is completely not a big deal.

[N. Jolly]

Come now, there's at least half a dozen ways around that.

Plus, there's the fact that switch hitting really isn't a powerful option in the first place, therefore being good at switch hitting is completely not a big deal.

Around needing two weapons? Yeah, most of them cost gold, so it's not really an alternative.

As I mentioned before, switch hitting has different value for a kineticist as opposed to other characters. Ranged shots should be area blast for group debuffing, while melee kineticist should be more about damage dealing due to the differences in how the attacks work.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but you're selling it far more short than it actually is. I'm seriously hoping for some first party content that helps fix some of the problems for this class, as I will readily agree that it's flawed.

[Gnaeus]

Around needing two weapons? Yeah, most of them cost gold, so it's not really an alternative.
.

That fighter that was outdamaging you? He has a sword +1. At level 7. Thats 1/11 of his WBL. He used 1 feat. Power attack. thats 1/8 of his feats.

To get a worse result, you are spending 1/4 of your feats, and 1/3 of your available infusions. You are a worse switch hitter than the fighter, and fighters are encouraged to specialize so as not to be useless.......

You want a switch hitter? There are some tier 4-5 classes that can actually do that pretty well. Ranger or archery fighter take point blank master as a bonus feat, then they just keep on shooting you in the face from 5 feet away. One feat, no expense. Brawler spends 2k gold on a bow, then backs it up with versatile feats if he ever needs them. I'm not even going to talk about Slayer (full BAB + sneak attack + bonus feats + studied target), because slayer beat up kenny on the school ground and stuck his head in a toilet.


What are these must-have ranged feats for the kinny after PBS & Precise Shot? They can't make use of rapid shot or many shot or far shot or ranged feint or even vital strike, deadly aim (& crit feats, should they live so long) isn't the most useful for them, snap shot is interesting rather than useful IME, weapon focus is nice to have I guess but not a big deal ... in some ways being feat-starved is something the kineticist hopes for in future products rather than something it is now.

Well, first off, if your job is doing ranged damage, and one of your big problems is not being able to hit things because you have medium BAB and you can't add your weapon bonus to your to hit, yeah, weapon focus is kinda decent. Its a flat 5% improvement in your sub par damage. Not having it just puts you farther behind, because the other archers do have it.

But also, Deadly Aim can help your physical blasts. Improved initiative is good for everyone. Toughness is particularly good for kenny, because it could basically be called Extra Burn, since it lets you eat one more burn in combat and still be at the same risk of falling over. Shot on the Run + Earth Glide is pretty much the only actually cool trick I have seen of which kenny is capable, but it is feat intensive. Greater Elemental Focus. Ability Focus. Fly-by-attack. When you finally qualify, Improved crit and improved precise shot. Yes, kenny has worse and fewer feats than his close competitors, but he has fewer feat slots to take them with.

And then there are the utility feats. Hellcat stealth doesn't suck for kenny. A familiar to sponge off your UMD helps your lack of utility and poor action economy, ideally by buffing you so your attacks can hit, or taking a Mauler that you can ride on, thus allowing you to gather power, shoot, and move in the same turn. Extra utility power. Heck, even freaking spell penetration.

Being bad at two different combat options isn't better than being less bad at the one you use most, and there are enough feats that do help kenny that dumping some doesn't help.

[Triskavanski]

One thing with the kinectic is the possibility of using something like Arcane Strike. The Blast is after all treated like a weapon, and Warlock Vigilante does do similar effects. Only problem with that specific feat is of course, the fact it is limited to only arcane spell casters.

But there is a second version of the same feat called Elemental Strike, requiring you to be Ifrit, Oread, Sylph or Undine and adds an elemental energy onto your weapons.


On a GM side of things, a Kinectic could use Infectious Weapons to spread disease onto the PCs.

[avr]

@Gnaeus - OK, you take weapon focus then. Deadly aim is just a bad bargain for someone with a single attack for significant damage already rather than the standard PF archer sending a barrage of shots down, multiplying the bonus. Kenny should not take it IMO. Improved precise shot comes late enough that you should have feats spare by then, and feats focusing on crits when you have one attack per round at 20/x2 are a waste. Improved initiative is not important to a kineticist especially and one more hp/level after using all the burn you're allowed (toughness doesn't increase the amount of burn you're allowed to take) is little important than one more hp/level normally.

Most of the rest? Those have enough variety that you can go down any of several different often mutually exclusive paths (focusing on mobility doesn't work well with ability focus because you really want to gather power to use the latter; fly/earth glide come from different elements; trying for stealth is compatible with earth glide but not gather power or kineticist flight, etc.) Which doesn't sound like being feat starved exactly.

[Gnaeus]

@Gnaeus - OK, you take weapon focus then. Deadly aim is just a bad bargain for someone with a single attack for significant damage already rather than the standard PF archer sending a barrage of shots down, multiplying the bonus. Kenny should not take it IMO. Improved precise shot comes late enough that you should have feats spare by then, and feats focusing on crits when you have one attack per round at 20/x2 are a waste. Improved initiative is not important to a kineticist especially and one more hp/level after using all the burn you're allowed (toughness doesn't increase the amount of burn you're allowed to take) is little important than one more hp/level normally.

Most of the rest? Those have enough variety that you can go down any of several different often mutually exclusive paths (focusing on mobility doesn't work well with ability focus because you really want to gather power to use the latter; fly/earth glide come from different elements; trying for stealth is compatible with earth glide but not gather power or kineticist flight, etc.) Which doesn't sound like being feat starved exactly.

Improved crit still doubles the crit chance for the weapon you are using all the time.

You are just wrong about toughness. Because you if you are shooting, you are in combat. In combat, especially in combat as a kenny with their limited defenses, you are taking damage. Improved toughness is absolutely one extra burn you can take without risking falling over from the next fireball. An archer is never not going to shoot because he has 5 hp left. A sorcerer will never not cast his spell because he has 5 hp left. A kineticist may not use the blast he wants to use if he has 5 HP left. Those HP are ammo.

You cannot go down several different mutually exclusive utility paths at any reasonable level. You can barely go down 1. At level 11, a kenny focusing on energy blasts might take PBS, Precise Shot, Improved Precise shot, Toughness, Spell penetration and improved spell penetration. Thats all your feats, usefully used on blasts, with more left over that you don't have feats to take. A physical blast kenny will want weapon focus to help with his awful attacks. You don't get your second expanded element until 15, so you only have one composite blast, so you want to focus one way or the other.

No, you are unlikely to have both earth glide and flight, (BECAUSE THE UTILITY POWER RESTRICTIONS ARE STUPID AND YOU ARE WORSE THAN A WARLOCK), but you will hopefully have one or the other, unless you fell into a trap.

Anyway, the whole point, which I still stand by, is that there are plenty of things that kenny can do to help his blasting that he does not have feats to throw away to be crummy in melee. He has less feats than any any close competitor, and worse damage already. You don't have to agree with any specific choice I would make, as long as you recognize that there are useful places to put feats to help either their mediocre blasting or their mediocre utility.

[Triskavanski]

A physical blast kenny will want weapon focus to help with his awful attacks. You don't get your second expanded element until 15, so you only have one composite blast, so you want to focus one way or the other.

This part is partially incorrect.

Its dependent on which elements you choose of course, But Air and Water gets access to both blizzard blast (P and C) and Charged Water (B and E) for example.

I'd have to agree with Jolly here that a really big issue with Kinetic is the lack of support for it.. You don't get a diadam until about level 7 or so, going by wealth by level. And even then its kinda pushing it.

Then.. what do you get next? Maybe a belt of +con +dex.. and then? Most of the support tends to be some high level stuff, like that Wril staff, which could somewhat remove the whole issue of elemental damage.. As it becomes untyped damage

[Gnaeus]

This part is partially incorrect.

Its dependent on which elements you choose of course, But Air and Water gets access to both blizzard blast (P and C) and Charged Water (B and E) for example

Ok. My statement was false in some fortunate circumstances but my point holds true. Both are physical blasts. They do not have a high damage energy blast, merely a choice between two sets of bad damage types.

[digiman619]

I keep saying; if you want Warlock-style antic for pathfinder, the Destruction sphere is what you want...

[N. Jolly]

That fighter that was outdamaging you? He has a sword +1. At level 7. Thats 1/11 of his WBL. He used 1 feat. Power attack. thats 1/8 of his feats.

To get a worse result, you are spending 1/4 of your feats, and 1/3 of your available infusions. You are a worse switch hitter than the fighter, and fighters are encouraged to specialize so as not to be useless.......

You want a switch hitter? There are some tier 4-5 classes that can actually do that pretty well. Ranger or archery fighter take point blank master as a bonus feat, then they just keep on shooting you in the face from 5 feet away. One feat, no expense. Brawler spends 2k gold on a bow, then backs it up with versatile feats if he ever needs them. I'm not even going to talk about Slayer (full BAB + sneak attack + bonus feats + studied target), because slayer beat up kenny on the school ground and stuck his head in a toilet.

Oh no, a class does less damage than a fighter, a traditional benchmark for good damage. Because the fighter can hit multiple people as well as inflicting statuses on them per hit, right? And at 7th, that's 1/3 (or 1/4th) of their infusions, which would be 1/6th (or 1/7th) of their total wild talents wild talents. Sure, if you're switch hitting, you're taking most of their early feats, but in contrast, what else are they using those feats on aside from toughness?

And I don't see the brawler or slayer flying, burrowing, levitating, or anything else of their own power. Same with landing area attacks or statuses. I don't see how attack routine wise, the kineticist is really that much worse, kinetic blade is basically eldritch glaive, and since the warlock comparison seems so popular, warlocks didn't even have eldritch glaive until Complete Mage, which was nearly 2 years later. Comparing a class that's been out for less than a year to one that's had that long to develop isn't really the most fair, especially with 3.5's break neck release schedule speed. Also touting the Warlock's DR/Fast Healing is pretty meh too since the DR was poorly scaled and the fast healing barely amounted to anything due to its limited duration. Without tricks, the warlock was a pretty meh class overall, which right now is where the kineticist is due to lack of options and a less than enjoyable burn mechanic that I continue to agree is an overcomplicated mess for too little reward.

Kineticist isn't a great class, but it's not nearly as terrible as you're making it out to be.

[Triskavanski]

The one thing I see on player's side of things is just how focused on raw damage numbers people are.

When I brought up how an Aether kinetic could manipulate the battlefield by moving larger heavy objects to provide cover, such as wagons, making it so that enemy archers had to shoot through total cover to hit the kinetic, or take at least one move action in order to get around the wagon (depending on the geometry of the situation, that might be more move actions or unable to get around it.) this would reduce the number attacks from 3 (Rapid shot and +6 bab) to one, the counter argument was "Well you go from 1 to 0"

There is more to the game than how much damage you can roll. Is the Kinetic some sort of god in all things non-damage stuff. Absolutely not! My point is to look at what else it is capable of doing. Of course there is a major key of needing to figure out what it can do that isn't GM Fiat (see my earlier rant about throwing around mack trucks and what happens to them after its thrown)

[Kurald Galain]

The one thing I see on player's side of things is just how focused on raw damage numbers people are.
Then you've missed the large part of the thread discussing utility.

Regardless of how good or bad kinny's damage is, his utility is much worse. That's because (1) most utility talents require burn, (2) your element sharply limits which utilities you can pick, and (3) utility talents are the equivalent of much lower level spells.



When I brought up how an Aether kinetic could manipulate the battlefield by moving larger heavy objects to provide cover,
When you brought that up, it was pointed out that this is just not a very effective defense. It sounds cool but tactically it's a pretty bad move in most situations.

[Triskavanski]

Most utility talents I've looked at don't require burn.

Aerial Adaptation, Aether Puppet, Air Cushion, Air Shroud, Air's Leap, Air's Reach, Brachiation, Celerity, Cold Adaptation, Earth Child, Earth Climb, Earth Glide, Earth Walk, Elemental Grip, Enduring Earth, Engulfing Winds, Eyes of the Void, Eyes of the Void Greater, Fire Scultpor, Fire's Fury, Firesight, Flame Jet, Flame Jet greater, Force barrier, Forest Siege, Gravity Control, gravity control greater, Gravity Master, Green tongue, Greensight, Heat adaptation, Hurricane Queen, Ice Path, Ice scultor, Ice walker, kinetic cover, merciful fuliage, no breath, plant disguise, plant puppet, primal Aether, reverse shift, Ride the blast, Roots, searing flame, seismic master, self telekinesis, self telekinese Greater, shape wood, Shift earth, shift earth greater, skilled kineticist, greater skilled kinticist, slick, smoke storm, spark of life, spell deflection, stone sculptor, suffocate, telekinetic deflection, telekinetic finesse, telekinetic globe, telekinetic haul, telekinetic invisibility, telekinetic manuvers, touch sight, reactive touchsight, trail of flames, tremor sense, greater tremor sense, veil of mists, voice of the wind, Warp wood, water alteration, water manipulator, waterdancer, greater waterdancer, water sense, weather master, wild growth, , wind manipulator, windsight, windsight greater, wings of air, woodland step, greater woodland step


All of those do not require even so much a single point of burn. Yes, some are stinkers. Others are not. Some are average. Some are actually pretty great. (I especially like the Firewall one when you make a withdraw or run action.)

[Gnaeus]

Oh no, a class does less damage than a fighter, a traditional benchmark for good damage. Because the fighter can hit multiple people as well as inflicting statuses on them per hit, right? And at 7th, that's 1/3 (or 1/4th) of their infusions, which would be 1/6th (or 1/7th) of their total wild talents wild talents. Sure, if you're switch hitting, you're taking most of their early feats, but in contrast, what else are they using those feats on aside from toughness?

And I don't see the brawler or slayer flying, burrowing, levitating, or anything else of their own power. Same with landing area attacks or statuses. I don't see how attack routine wise, the kineticist is really that much worse, kinetic blade is basically eldritch glaive, and since the warlock comparison seems so popular, warlocks didn't even have eldritch glaive until Complete Mage, which was nearly 2 years later. Comparing a class that's been out for less than a year to one that's had that long to develop isn't really the most fair, especially with 3.5's break neck release schedule speed. Also touting the Warlock's DR/Fast Healing is pretty meh too since the DR was poorly scaled and the fast healing barely amounted to anything due to its limited duration. Without tricks, the warlock was a pretty meh class overall, which right now is where the kineticist is due to lack of options and a less than enjoyable burn mechanic that I continue to agree is an overcomplicated mess for too little reward.

Kineticist isn't a great class, but it's not nearly as terrible as you're making it out to be.

I'm not discussing the general warlock argument again, other than to say that I stand by my earlier statements upthread. But even with just CompArc, every single warlock could still get unlimited invisibility, flight, see invisibility or blindsense 30, noxious blast, Evards Tentacles and craft and use magic items like a T1. They were already a strong T4.

Jolly, I love your guide, and I never would have figured out how this class even works without your help, but here you are like the rogue lovers arguing that Rogue is T3 because they play it well. I have no doubt that Kenny, even without your 3pp stuff, which is good, can perform at a low T4 level if well enough played. So can a truenamer. That doesn't make it a good class.

Fighter is not a hallmark for good damage. It is a Tier 5. Possibly not even good at combat if not well built. The stub of a fighter I compared had 1 feat. It may as well have been an NPC warrior. A warrior could also have taken power attack and outdamaged kenny. Rogue was used, because rogue is also generally considered a poor combatant, just one with some utility. The damage comparisons were with the worst combat classes in the game. (And brawler and slayer, only discussed in context of classes that actually CAN switch hit, can hand out statuses pretty well. There are lots of ways to drop statuses on unarmed strikes or sneak attacks that work better than infusions, but anyway. Brawlers can only fight, but at least they are good at it. Slayers are great at it, and still have as much or more utility as kenny, just in different ways ).

Yeah, YOU can make a kenny that functions. Schneeky made a functional Samurai. Zaq made a reasonable truenamer, at the cost of his ability to taste ice cream. I do rate your achievements as similar to theirs. But Kineticist is also a class full of gaping traps. It isn't like Barbarian, where my little girl can make one with powers that sound neat and make a workable character. It is like fighter, in that if you don't know what you are doing, you wind up with something that isn't good at anything, (as Kurald Galain's experiences attest to.) And a badly made and played kineticist is weak in a way that even fighter can't match. You can, very very easily, pick powers and tactics that hurt you more than your enemies.

[Anlashok]

Rogue and Fighters don't have bad DPR though. They have issues in combat, but none of them have to do with DPR.

[Triskavanski]

One particular power that not even I can figure out a real use for is Kinetic Cover. I really.. do not get it. Unless maybe you're in a situation where you can actually prepare before hand, and throw up a number of these things in places to cover you and your allies in clear sheets of kinetic something or other.


When you brought that up, it was pointed out that this is just not a very effective defense. It sounds cool but tactically it's a pretty bad move in most situations.

Wagon cover on the other hand, can be effective. Especially since when you need to, you can throw the cover at the enemy. Can the enemy take a move action? Yes they could. But would the usual 30 foot movement be enough to get around your cover? Depends on how far way the the target is and how much they can move.

In an empty matrix room like
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/matrix/images/a/ad/Matrix_Wiki_Construct.png/revision/latest?cb=20120808051804

Yeah, you're going to have a bad time. And sometimes DMs Dm games like this.

Other times they have maps like
http://www.outshine.com/aw/stronghold_small.jpg

Were you couldn't fit the wagon into easily. But you could use said wagon (Or other solid big heavy object) to block exits and entrances, Force ranged enemies into melee, etc. One just has to develop tactics as you go.

Again though, as it cannot be stressed enough, in no way does it make Kinectist some sort of god of battlefield control as some people might require to say that there is any use in the class beyond making the player who chose to play a chained rogue feel good about his choices.

[Gnaeus]

Rogue and Fighters don't have bad DPR though. They have issues in combat, but none of them have to do with DPR.

Switch hitter fighters do have bad DPR, and a fighter 7 with 1 feat and a +1 weapon certainly qualifies. Again, I could redo that comparison with a warrior. There are few if any combat issues that rogues have that kenny does not have at least as badly (med bab/hp, mediocre armor, need to full attack to do decent damage, difficulty doing full damage against some foes or if not well built/played). Is there actually any need to redo those comparisons with classes that are good in combat, like a raging barbarian or bloodrager? Or a decently built gunslinger, which basically shares the kineticist blasting role? Or show what decently spent WBL does for them? Would that actually show anything we haven't seen already?

[N. Jolly]

I'm not discussing the general warlock argument again, other than to say that I stand by my earlier statements upthread. But even with just CompArc, every single warlock could still get unlimited invisibility, flight, see invisibility or blindsense 30, noxious blast, Evards Tentacles and craft and use magic items like a T1. They were already a strong T4.

Jolly, I love your guide, and I never would have figured out how this class even works without your help, but here you are like the rogue lovers arguing that Rogue is T3 because they play it well. I have no doubt that Kenny, even without your 3pp stuff, which is good, can perform at a low T4 level if well enough played. So can a truenamer. That doesn't make it a good class.

Fighter is not a hallmark for good damage. It is a Tier 5. Possibly not even good at combat if not well built. The stub of a fighter I compared had 1 feat. It may as well have been an NPC warrior. A warrior could also have taken power attack and outdamaged kenny. Rogue was used, because rogue is also generally considered a poor combatant, just one with some utility. The damage comparisons were with the worst combat classes in the game. (And brawler and slayer, only discussed in context of classes that actually CAN switch hit, can hand out statuses pretty well. There are lots of ways to drop statuses on unarmed strikes or sneak attacks that work better than infusions, but anyway. Brawlers can only fight, but at least they are good at it. Slayers are great at it, and still have as much or more utility as kenny, just in different ways ).

Yeah, YOU can make a kenny that functions. Schneeky made a functional Samurai. Zaq made a reasonable truenamer, at the cost of his ability to taste ice cream. I do rate your achievements as similar to theirs. But Kineticist is also a class full of gaping traps. It isn't like Barbarian, where my little girl can make one with powers that sound neat and make a workable character. It is like fighter, in that if you don't know what you are doing, you wind up with something that isn't good at anything, (as Kurald Galain's experiences attest to.) And a badly made and played kineticist is weak in a way that even fighter can't match. You can, very very easily, pick powers and tactics that hurt you more than your enemies.

The fighter isn't T5 for a lack of damage, so comparing Kineticist damage to a full BAB whose only function is damage isn't really that fair. Brawler and slayer are both full BAB classes as well, and I really don't think they have the utility of the kineticist.

I'd NEVER argue this class as a T3 (except dimensional ripper aether kineticist from KOP 3 with other KOP material), it's a middling T4, but it's a T4 none the less. I mean I've been able to put out 3 books of content for the class and I specifically state Brutal Mutation from KOP 3 should be a mandatory class feature rather than a mutation in my dev commentary for the book.

You're right that it's easy to screw yourself over with the class, that's why I wrote a guide for it. I wish it didn't need a guide, but really, some classes are more (needlessly) complex. If you want, send me a PM and I can see about hooking you up with a review copy of KOP 1-3, see if what I've done helps the class. It shouldn't need 3p to be good (and the criminal lack of content in ultimate intrigue was depressing), but I can't complain from my end.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not rating the class based on your 3pp work Jolly. It looks great. No complaints here. But it won't be useful in PFS. It won't be useful in the tournament games I play. And it won't be usable in our local games, which are strictly Paizo + DSP (and them only because they remade our favorite 3.5 content.) If you want to say that Kenny works with your additions, I have not the slightest opinion. But the Paizo version is a dog with fleas. It is a T5. Maybe good at combat, but not necessarily good at even that. May be useless even in its area of expertise. Writing a guide about it doesn't change that. I can make a decent fighter with a guide, but fighter is T5. I can make a decent truenamer with Zaq's guide, or a T4 3.5 Samurai if I copy schneeky's build. But those classes still aren't good. And frankly, I think CW Samurai is better than Kineticist. At least you aren't likely to gimp yourself into complete uselessness or blast yourself to death.


The fighter isn't T5 for a lack of damage, so comparing Kineticist damage to a full BAB whose only function is damage isn't really that fair. Brawler and slayer are both full BAB classes as well, and I really don't think they have the utility of the kineticist.

Brawler is T4, for little utility, but actually likely to be good at combat. I'd argue about slayer, which can do utility reasonably well, but I don't actually have a high opinion on kineticist utility either. It has some nice movement modes. But even there, its filled with trap options where if you pick the wrong element for reasons of coolness or to have the right kind of blast you may not have the utility powers you want. If you really want me to, I can do a damage comparison with a mid T4, like Bloodrager, which has more utility than kineticist and vastly more damage. But we have already seen a comparison with a T4. Warlock.

[N. Jolly]

I'm not rating the class based on your 3pp work Jolly. It looks great. No complaints here. But it won't be useful in PFS. It won't be useful in the tournament games I play. And it won't be usable in our local games, which are strictly Paizo + DSP (and them only because they remade our favorite 3.5 content.) If you want to say that Kenny works with your additions, I have not the slightest opinion. But the Paizo version is a dog with fleas. It is a T5. Maybe good at combat, but not necessarily good at even that. May be useless even in its area of expertise. Writing a guide about it doesn't change that. I can make a decent fighter with a guide, but fighter is T5. I can make a decent truenamer with Zaq's guide, or a T4 3.5 Samurai if I copy schneeky's build. But those classes still aren't good. And frankly, I think CW Samurai is better than Kineticist. At least you aren't likely to gimp yourself into complete uselessness or blast yourself to death.

Nah, I'm not expecting you to rate it on that. I think one of the reasons I like the class is like you said that it has a LOT of design room to fix problems. It's really a designer's playground with how much I can mess around with here. I still stand on that it's a low T4, but I think we've basically reached a consensus on what we think. I believe the class will get better with more content, although I would KILL for an unchained kineticist. Sadly, I don't see that happening with how many people still think there's no problem, but as I've said before, GitP has a higher mechanical standpoint than the paizo boards.

I would only suggest it to people who are willing to put the effort into making it serviceable. As mentioned, destruction sphere does give some warlocky goodness too. Warlock itself is basically workable in PF with some alterations (I did my own update on it before), but there has to be a real dedication in the same way that you'll feel with a lot of T5 classes to make it work.

[Triskavanski]

Even I'm not saying there is no problem with the kinetictist... I'm just saying it not as bad as some people make it out to be, and in other cases.. Worse.

I mean the Aether one, the only one I really focus on right now, has powers that are so sloppily worded that if it was a video game, the computer would crash.

Telekinetic blast has its normal physical side, and the side that just throws the weapon with magic, that for some reason labels 1h improvised weapon appropriate to your size to be a thing? I've searched quite a bit, and still can't find any pathfinder rules on that. Maybe I missed it somewhere?

The flippyfloppy damage code depending on energy/physical. How does that interact with Kinetic Healer? Part of the reason I just go Aether is to limit the amount of wat? I have. in this case, its the damage code

If you Foe Throw on a dragon, can you use them like a 1h improvised weapon? Foe throw in itself is really weird.. Things like how if you miss, the thrown creature can move anywhere in 30 feet of the target. I suppose you could do something where you close your eyes before you throw an ally to let them choose where to move.


I'm actually beginning to wonder if Catalyst made the class and Paizo took it from them?

[SorenKnight]

True. It is much worse.



No, it has worse damage through Metakinesis and Composite blasts. Most of those require 2 burn, so you have to sit there for a round gathering energy if you don't want to eat burn. And when I take my readied action to shoot you or cast on you, you lose your blast, AND take burn in addition to any damage I did. Also, a lot of those composite blasts have really awful damage types. Look at things like Ice Blast or Magma blast. You actually get hit once by the enemy's DR, and again by their energy resistance.



Aw heck no. Warlock has a blast that makes everyone he hits save or be Nauseated for a minute. He can use that on everyone he shoots. Entangling, at BEST, takes one standard action away from target. If they don't just ignore it. Grappling is worse. With its 3 burn, good luck getting it to work at all.

And then the Warlock has other crowd control options. Like taking that big enemy he just killed, and turning it into a skeletal tank that will block for him. Or at will evards tentacles.



Constitution focus would be nice, except for the stupid burn mechanic that makes you take unhealable, unavoidable nonlethal damage every time you try to do anything remotely cool.

Warlock has free DR (which does not scale as well as Elemental Defense), and free self healing, and free energy resistance to the 2 most commonly available types of energy in his campaign. And, and this should not be overlooked, a warlock can shoot a blast with a disabling effect and then fly around a corner. Kineticist shoots a blast with a weak effect, like entangling, and it takes a full round action so he then gets a 5 foot step. Assuming that he isn't trying to mitigate 2 burn, so he is sitting in the middle of the room begging every enemy to shoot him and make him eat a bunch more burn.

And THEN warlock gets invocations like Ignore the Pyre, or just at will Invisibility.



They are close to equal in movement modes. Tragically, the Kineticist both has prereqs for those powers, and has to take specific elements to access them.



Other problems. Warlock can freely pick the best powers on their list. Kenny has a class full of traps that he can't easily undo once he has fallen into them. For example, if I take Earth for Earth Glide, and Fire for Flame Jet or Fire Shield, I am then stuck with the inferior Magma Blast.

And then there is Deceive/Imbue Item, which can literally copy almost any tier 1 trick with a little crafting time.

If you removed Burn entirely, and followed it up by unlinking utility powers from elements so every kenny could pick from every power and elements only impacted blasts, you would get something close to, but still not as good as, Warlock.

Okay, my bad. I am much more familiar with PF content so I overlooked a lot of stuff. Also my only in-play experience with kineticist was high level and fairly well optimized, so that may have colored my perception of the class.


Kineticist isn't a great class, but it's not nearly as terrible as you're making it out to be.
That's what I said.:smallsmile:


I still think my fix would be
1. Remove burn mechanic entirely. All powers that have greater effects until burn is remove just use the more powerful effect.
2. Unlink all utility powers from element so any kineticist can take any of them, so element only changes class skills, blasts, and defense.

Second one is a good change, but the first? Paying burn for damage isn't really what cripples the class and if every kineticist had empowered maximized twinned quickened composite blasts for free as soon as those options became available it would reverse the class's problems. It would become too easy to become extremely strong characters, rather than too easy to build crappy ones. Maybe if you just removed burn from all utility talents?

[Kurald Galain]

Second one is a good change, but the first? Paying burn for damage isn't really what cripples the class and if every kineticist had empowered maximized twinned quickened composite blasts for free as soon as those options became available it would reverse the class's problems. It would become too easy to become extremely strong characters, rather than too easy to build crappy ones. Maybe if you just removed burn from all utility talents?

I really like the concept of burn; the execution, not so much. I'd say the main problems are (1) since you get substantial bonuses for having taking burn, this encourages players to simply max out their burn right at the start of the day, which defies the whole point; (2) since it depends solely on constitution, you don't really get better at it as you level, and this encourages kinnies to over-invest in constitution; and (3) it is awkwardly and confusingly written.

Oh yeah, and the problem is that spending a move action is a very minor cost, but spending a turn and a half to charge up is waaaay too risky for the benefit. The latter should be a high risk / high reward move.

So I'd say, remove overflow, infusion spec, and internal buffer to make the class much clearer; then have talents simply cost a fixed amount, e.g. 2 HP for a second-level talent, 6 HP for a third, and so forth.

[Gnaeus]

Second one is a good change, but the first? Paying burn for damage isn't really what cripples the class and if every kineticist had empowered maximized twinned quickened composite blasts for free as soon as those options became available it would reverse the class's problems. It would become too easy to become extremely strong characters, rather than too easy to build crappy ones. Maybe if you just removed burn from all utility talents?

I'd probably just suggest that you get a certain number of free metamagic applications per day.So your composite blast is an at will, any basic blast + infusion is an at will, then x times per day you can metamagic them. It isn't that the math is super hard by PF standards, but for every round to be (Ok, I use kinetic blade + composite blast so thats 2+1=3-infusion specialization -gather power, so I wind up with X) is pointless at best, assuming that you can mitigate all the burn, and debilitating at worst. Maybe just make the metamagic applications cost HP (similar to what Kurald suggested).

[Triskavanski]

My suggestions

1) I do agree that it is dumb you only get one blast with elements that have multiple basic blasts. If you choose an element, you should get all the basic blasts with that element.

2) The Kinetic should have access to more elements. Especially since like the new player companion stuff didn't really offer any support, but simply just added more elements. Which compounds the problem of just having 3 elements and has them spaced so far apart


3) BLOODY CLEAN UP THE WORDING ON THE POWERS. I pointed out a few of them from Ether. Some of the wording here is on the level of Catalyst's Shadowrun 5e.

4) Drop the whole basic/greater crap. The only reason to do this is to fill slots. If anything this is one of my biggest complaint of the entire PF system (and 3.5/3.0) But Its even more so with PF. Unless the Greater power does something radically different it should have been just something that gets upgraded after a period of time. Like the Vigilante's abilities that upgrade as you gain levels.