Fiendish Codex II = INSANE EARLY ACCESS?

[magicalmagicman]

Assorted Faustian Rewards
Additional feat 4
Additional spell slot (any level) 3
1-point ability increase 5
Bonus on one class skill 1 per +1 bonus
Bonus on one cross-class skill 2 per +1 bonus

You can choose up to 9 points worth of rewards.

SO! A wizard who makes a Faustian Pact can:
1. Get a level 9 spell slot at LEVEL 1, upto 3 slots
2. Scribe High Level spells into his spell book
3. Cast upto 3 spells of ANY LEVEL starting from Level 1?

Consequently:
1. Qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at LEVEL 2 because he can cast level 4 spells at level 1!
2. Qualify for Malconvoker at LEVEL 2
3. Qualify for ANY PRC that has low skill requirements, but high spell level access
4. Access to all of the Mother Cyst spells as soon as you grab the feat.

[Zombimode]

You also gain additional spell slots for having a high casting stat.
Does that mean having an Int of 18 give you a 4th level spell slot at level 1? No.

[magicalmagicman]

You also gain additional spell slots for having a high casting stat.
Does that mean having an Int of 18 give you a 4th level spell slot at level 1? No.

I can't seem to find the rule, but I know it exists that you only get the bonus spell slots from ability scores if your current class level can cast those spells. Fiendish Codex II spell slots don't have this restriction.

Depending on how that rule is worded you might be right. Anyone know exactly where it is?

edit: Found it

In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster
must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of
a given spell level.

This was in the paragraph about bonus spell slots from ability scores. So by RAW, you're wrong. Ability scores have a restriction, Fiendish Codex II does not.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You get an 'additional' slot, which more or less assumes that you already have a slot (of that level) to begin with. That is not the only way to rule it, but I wouldn't want to encourage pacts too much, so it's a fine ruling.

[Zanos]

I can't seem to find the rule, but I know it exists that you only get the bonus spell slots from ability scores if your current class level can cast those spells. Fiendish Codex II spell slots don't have this restriction.

Depending on how that rule is worded you might be right. Anyone know exactly where it is?

edit: Found it


This was in the paragraph about bonus spell slots from ability scores. So by RAW, you're wrong. Ability scores have a restriction, Fiendish Codex II does not.
Based on the passage you quoted, it seems like he's correct. The Pact adding a spell slot does nothing about the restriction of needing sufficient levels in a spellcasting class to be able to cast higher level spells.

[magicalmagicman]

Based on the passage you quoted, it seems like he's correct. The Pact adding a spell slot does nothing about the restriction of needing sufficient levels in a spellcasting class to be able to cast higher level spells.

Heres the full quote

The ability that governs bonus spells (see Chapter 3: Classes) depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.) For instance, the wizard Mialee has an Intelligence score of 15, so she’s smart enough to get one bonus 1stlevel spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)

So the example clearly shows that she won't get the bonus 2nd level spell slot until she reaches the appropriate class level.

Ability Scores are saying:
"You get the bonus spell slots when you reach the appropriate class level"

Fiendish Codex is saying:
"You get the bonus spell slot. Period."

There is no conditional or restriction for the fiendish codex bonus spell slot.

[Zombimode]

This was in the paragraph about bonus spell slots from ability scores. So by RAW, you're wrong. Ability scores have a restriction, Fiendish Codex II does not.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. A first level wizard has "-" 9th level spell slots. If he would gain an additional 9th level spell slot, he would now have "- + 1". To what number does this compute? If your answer is "1" then you would have to somehow prove that "-" equals "0".

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ability Scores are saying:
"You get the bonus spell slots when you reach the appropriate class level"
Actually, it doesn't say that. It says: "a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level". Of course, this kills virtually all spellcaster early entry tricks (and makes certain free heightens pretty useless), so most people here don't use it, but it's there.

[magicalmagicman]

Actually, it doesn't say that. It says: "a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level". Of course, this kills virtually all spellcaster early entry tricks (and makes certain free heightens pretty useless), so most people here don't use it, but it's there.

You're actually only partial quoting. The full quote says to gain the bonus spell slot she has to be of high enough class level in addition to having a high enough ability score. This is clear in the official example that follows the quote.

[darksolitaire]

Consequently:
1. Qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at LEVEL 2 because he can cast level 4 spells at level 1!
2. Qualify for Malconvoker at LEVEL 2
3. Qualify for ANY PRC that has low skill requirements, but high spell level access
4. Access to all of the Mother Cyst spells as soon as you grab the feat.

I'd buy that for a soul.

[Mr Adventurer]

Does anything say it has to be a spell of a class you have? Like could you get one Wizard spell and one Cleric spell?

[magicalmagicman]

Does anything say it has to be a spell of a class you have? Like could you get one Wizard spell and one Cleric spell?

I guess you could, but it would be pointless. You don't know any spells, you don't have any spells in your cleric class spell list, etc.

But of course, if you 1 wizard/1cleric I guess you could cast all spells. That's an interesting idea.

[MisterKaws]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. A first level wizard has "-" 9th level spell slots. If he would gain an additional 9th level spell slot, he would now have "- + 1". To what number does this compute? If your answer is "1" then you would have to somehow prove that "-" equals "0".

"-" computes to "You ain't casting that, dude." and it's the number 1 counter to early access shenanigans.

[ben-zayb]

Regardless of whether it adheres to RAW or not, it's been used before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365674-Madness-Tarrasquekiller-Slaying-the-Tarrasque-as-a-1st-level-commoner).

[AnachroNinja]

The problem with people who tout the holy "-" above all others, is that it breaks all the clearly deliberate methods of getting access to higher level slots early (like earth spell which has almost no other possible purpose), and on top of that, ignores that fact that many things like Mystic Theurge are almost unplayable without early access. It's a pointless argument.

[Mr Adventurer]

Assuming it works, could be interesting on a character with the Magical Training feat, or whatever the name is of the one that can get you a spell book with cantrips in?

[khadgar567]

if you ask me get +5 to a stat and spare feat works for me if you ask why
+5 to stat equals to 2 spell slots
and every one needs one more feat in their builds

[Gallowglass]

The problem with people who tout the holy "-" above all others, is that it breaks all the clearly deliberate methods of getting access to higher level slots early (like earth spell which has almost no other possible purpose), and on top of that, ignores that fact that many things like Mystic Theurge are almost unplayable without early access. It's a pointless argument.

That's not a problem...

Or rather, that's only a problem for people who derive fun from breaking rules and building "early entry" TO characters and insist that "RAW" means "Rules as I choose to interpret them."

And, hey, if that's your thing, have fun Man. Play your game. But own up to the fact that you are abusing some bull**** RAW reading while ignoring the actual rules when they get in the way of your bull**** RAW reading.

I don't really mind people playing the "look at my TO early access character!" game, I mind the same people INSISTING that their TO abominations are rules legal and that anyone pointing out the reasons their "Rules as I choose to interpret them" reading doesn't pass muster is just WRONG WRONG WRONG *stamps foot*

[MisterKaws]

The problem with people who tout the holy "-" above all others, is that it breaks all the clearly deliberate methods of getting access to higher level slots early (like earth spell which has almost no other possible purpose), and on top of that, ignores that fact that many things like Mystic Theurge are almost unplayable without early access. It's a pointless argument.

Earth Spell, Sanctum Spell, and all of the other shenanigans are supposed to be just free heightening at certain conditions, and we all know how much WotC pampered SoD spells.

[Zombimode]

The problem with people who tout the holy "-" above all others, is that it breaks all the clearly deliberate methods of getting access to higher level slots early (like earth spell which has almost no other possible purpose), and on top of that, ignores that fact that many things like Mystic Theurge are almost unplayable without early access. It's a pointless argument.

Some remarks:

1) shutting down all early access methods
This is something I would have to put some research in. I'm away from books right now, but from memory Precious Apprentice should work regardless since it doesn't give you an additional 2nd level spell. It gives you one if you would get one otherwise. Other methods I have to look into.

2) would shutting down some early entry tricks be a problem?
If something that wasn't really intended doesn't actually work if you don't ignore rules, I consider it a feature, not a bug.

3) Threuges are worthless without early entry
By what measure? Because my level Wizard 3 / Cloistered Cleric 3 / True Necromancer 12 feels amazingly powerful and has so since 10 levels at least and was far from worthless before that. But this is getting off-topic.

[Necroticplague]

Consequently:
1. Qualify for Shadowcraft Mage at LEVEL 2 because he can cast level 4 spells at level 1!
2. Qualify for Malconvoker at LEVEL 2
3. Qualify for ANY PRC that has low skill requirements, but high spell level access
4. Access to all of the Mother Cyst spells as soon as you grab the feat.

The first of these can be done without this trick. Sell your soul for feats instead, and you can use standard early-casting advancement tricks can get you that.

Feats: Precocious Apprentice (wall of Gloom), [Any metamagic], Eldritch Corruption, Spell Focus (illusion).

So level 1 feat, Human bonus feat (from the Adaption section to allow for this), 2 feats from selling soul.

[magicalmagicman]

I stopped responding to people who "tout the holy "-". There are tons of examples (Earth Spell is a good one) that contradict their claims, but... :(. I don't see myself convincing these people. Precocious Apprentice is another one. Either the holy "-" is un-negatable and feats like earth spell and precocious apprentice drop dead, or specific trumps general, the holy "-" is negatable, and the argument completely falls apart.

Granted, unlike Versatile Spellcaster, this shenanigan is not from a specifically described feat and whatnot, so it might have a little merit in this argument that you can't cast level 9 spells just because you have a level 9 spell slot, and the only thing you can use the level 9 spell slot for is using it to cast metamagicked lower level spells.


The first of these can be done without this trick. Sell your soul for feats instead, and you can use standard early-casting advancement tricks can get you that.

Feats: Precocious Apprentice (wall of Gloom), [Any metamagic], Eldritch Corruption, Spell Focus (illusion).

So level 1 feat, Human bonus feat (from the Adaption section to allow for this), 2 feats from selling soul.

Precocious Apprentice is very iffy. Unlike the "-" argument, there are a lot of solid arguments why that feat doesn't grant early access. The main one is that this feat does not grant you the ability to cast 2nd level spells (otherwise you lose all benefits of that feat immediately after taking it), so likewise a heightened version of wall of gloom does not grant you the ability to cast 4th level spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The problem with people who tout the holy "-" above all others, is that it breaks all the clearly deliberate methods of getting access to higher level slots early (like earth spell which has almost no other possible purpose), and on top of that, ignores that fact that many things like Mystic Theurge are almost unplayable without early access. It's a pointless argument.
Early entry methods which use Improved Sigil (Krau), Eldritch Corruption and Earth Spell still work (and DMM:Heighten, presumably, but I haven't seen that used much). With those feats, you're not casting a second-level spell with a second-level slot, you're getting an unusually powerful effect out of a first-level slot. That would still be in contradiction with the text on ability scores and bonus spells (see conversation continued below), but not in contradiction with the "-" in the class tables.

Versatile Spellcaster tricks would be pretty much off the table, though, that's for sure, and the elven generalist/domain wizard loop stops working as well.


You're actually only partial quoting. The full quote says to gain the bonus spell slot she has to be of high enough class level in addition to having a high enough ability score. This is clear in the official example that follows the quote.
It's pretty clear from the example that Mialee wouldn't get a second-level slot until level three, because that is the lowest level at which a wizard can cast a second-level spell.


(She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell [slot] until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.) (emphasis mine)

So the reason you don't get the slot is that you can't cast the spell. That second-level spells are commonly cast from second-level slots is almost irrelevant, as if it's incidental.

A big problem, of course, is that none of the classes specify what the minimum level to cast a spell is. Properly, all we know is that you need three levels in wizard to cast a second-level spell. It's probable that the writer was thinking of [spell level * 2 - 1], but that's not explicit, not in the bonus spell slot rules, nor in the class descriptions, nor in Chapter 10, on spells.

[magicalmagicman]

It's pretty clear from the example that Mialee wouldn't get a second-level slot until level three, because that is the lowest level at which a wizard can cast a second-level spell.


Exactly, except we are not talking about ability score bonus spell slots. We are talking about Faustian Pact Bonus Spell Slots, and the pact grants you that spell slot.

[Troacctid]

In order to get an additional thing, you have to have a thing to begin with. You can't get an additional spell slot of a level for which you have no spell slots.

It is similar to how you don't deal sneak attack damage on a touch attack made to initiate a trip attempt. You have to deal damage in order to deal additional damage.

[Honest Tiefling]

Exactly, except we are not talking about ability score bonus spell slots. We are talking about Faustian Pact Bonus Spell Slots, and the pact grants you that spell slot.

Does it say that Fiendish Pact spell slots work any differently? Else, its likely up to DM interpretation and might or might not fly.

[magicalmagicman]

Does it say that Fiendish Pact spell slots work any differently? Else, its likely up to DM interpretation and might or might not fly.

It says you make a deal, you do an evil act worth 3 corruption points, and then you are awarded a spell slot of any level you want.

[Honest Tiefling]

Doesn't seem to state it follows different rules then the PHB, then. Also, is it just me, or is granting spell slots the characters can't use just seems so suiting to the devils to begin with? Faustian pact, indeed.

[MisterKaws]

Early entry methods which use Improved Sigil (Krau), Eldritch Corruption and Earth Spell still work (and DMM:Heighten, presumably, but I haven't seen that used much). With those feats, you're not casting a second-level spell with a second-level slot, you're getting an unusually powerful effect out of a first-level slot. That would still be in contradiction with the text on ability scores and bonus spells (see conversation continued below), but not in contradiction with the "-" in the class tables.

Versatile Spellcaster tricks would be pretty much off the table, though, that's for sure, and the elven generalist/domain wizard loop stops working as well.


It's pretty clear from the example that Mialee wouldn't get a second-level slot until level three, because that is the lowest level at which a wizard can cast a second-level spell.

(emphasis mine)

So the reason you don't get the slot is that you can't cast the spell. That second-level spells are commonly cast from second-level slots is almost irrelevant, as if it's incidental.

A big problem, of course, is that none of the classes specify what the minimum level to cast a spell is. Properly, all we know is that you need three levels in wizard to cast a second-level spell. It's probable that the writer was thinking of [spell level * 2 - 1], but that's not explicit, not in the bonus spell slot rules, nor in the class descriptions, nor in Chapter 10, on spells.

They do specify: if it has the 'Holey -'(typo intended), you can't cast it at that level. Pretty simple IMO.

[Zancloufer]

In order to get an additional thing, you have to have a thing to begin with. You can't get an additional spell slot of a level for which you have no spell slots.

It is similar to how you don't deal sneak attack damage on a touch attack made to initiate a trip attempt. You have to deal damage in order to deal additional damage.

Well ;



Precious Apprentice

Prerequisite

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special

You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.


So this is a feat that exists in D&D. You take it (and can ONLY take it) at a level of which you have '-' level 2 spells. It says you gain an ADDITIONAL level 2 spell (though it can only cast a single spell) even though you don't have one to start with.

Same language as the Fiendish Codex II text, so by RAW if you get the "extra spell slot" reward it can be of ANY level. Though you still need to have a high enough casting stat to cast said spell. Also you would need to KNOW a spell that high level. Though the entire pack seems somewhat DM Fiat territory so they could limit the rewards you gain, or not grant you spells of a higher level than you should normally be able to cast.

[MisterKaws]

So this is a feat that exists in D&D. You take it (and can ONLY take it) at a level of which you have '-' level 2 spells. It says you gain an ADDITIONAL level 2 spell (though it can only cast a single spell) even though you don't have one to start with.

Same language as the Fiendish Codex II text, so by RAW if you get the "extra spell slot" reward it can be of ANY level. Though you still need to have a high enough casting stat to cast said spell. Also you would need to KNOW a spell that high level. Though the entire pack seems somewhat DM Fiat territory so they could limit the rewards you gain, or not grant you spells of a higher level than you should normally be able to cast.

Precocious Apprentice explicitly says that it is overriding a normal rule, and none of the others say that.

[Mr Adventurer]

Move on from the argument, nobody cares. What about what I'm saying?!

Assuming it works, could be interesting on a character with the Magical Training feat, or whatever the name is of the one that can get you a spell book with cantrips in?

:D

[ben-zayb]

Move on from the argument, I don't care. What about what I'm saying?!Fixed it for you. Try not to speak for me next time.:smallwink:

As for the question, check the link from my previous post. It's explicitly a commoner that used Magical Training + this shenanigan, to get Miracle.

[Necroticplague]

So this is a feat that exists in D&D. You take it (and can ONLY take it) at a level of which you have '-' level 2 spells. It says you gain an ADDITIONAL level 2 spell (though it can only cast a single spell) even though you don't have one to start with.


Counterpoint: Creatures with racial casting may very well have 2nd level spells that aren't "-" in quantity at Character Level 1. For Example, a Sharn Mystic Theurge 1 is a level 1 character, but has access to 0th,1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells (casts as level 7 favored soul and sorceror). The feat only says character level 1, not ECL 1 (the above character is ECL 10, if my memory serves).

[Mr Adventurer]

Fixed it for you. Try not to speak for me next time.:smallwink:

As for the question, check the link from my previous post. It's explicitly a commoner that used Magical Training + this shenanigan, to get Miracle.

Thanks :D. You know, I'd never looked closely enough at the Madness process to notice that!

[magicalmagicman]

Just for the record, I'd like to say that I agree with the people who said "-" won't let you cast spells.

Although I disagree with them about whether Versatile Spellcaster allows early access or not, in this specific case, there are no rules that support my claims that you can cast level 9 spells just because you have a level 9 spell slot.

The Core rules specifically state that even if you have higher level spell slots, you can't cast high level spells unless you have 10 + spell level in your casting stat, but you can fill them up with lower level spells.

[atemu1234]

Regardless of whether it adheres to RAW or not, it's been used before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365674-Madness-Tarrasquekiller-Slaying-the-Tarrasque-as-a-1st-level-commoner).

There is nothing new under the sun rulebooks. It has all been done optimized before.

[ben-zayb]

There is nothing new under the sun rulebooks. It has all been done optimized before.
It's been more than a decade and a half, but what I love about the gitp op contests tge most is showing that not everything has been done before, at least not in the way that's already been known enough to be considered unoriginal.