Prestige classes and alchemist

[origomart]

This is a rules question regarding a lot of prestige classes and alchemists.

Some prestige classes say you gain levels in arcane spellcasting as if you were taking levels in that original class, but you dont get the class features.

Does alchemist "spellcasting" count for this kind of prestige class? My gut instinct says no, but they talk about how alchemists are "magical" a lot in the description of alchemists.

[Gallowglass]

RAW no. The Alchemist Extracts are never defined as either Arcane or Divine on top of never being defined as "spellcasting" so its a multiple count of not-qualifying.

Bear in mind, that almost certainly excludes your alchemist from qualifying you for most of the prestige classes you are talking about who demand the ability to "cast 3rd level arcane spells" or something similar in most (but not all) cases.

Rules as doesn't-hurt, If I had a PC trying to qualify for a prestige class that they otherwise qualified for, I'd probably let them take it with the +1 spellcasting level affecting their extracts in place of spells, but it would be a case by case proposition.

[origomart]

RAW no. The Alchemist Extracts are never defined as either Arcane or Divine on top of never being defined as "spellcasting" so its a multiple count of not-qualifying.

Bear in mind, that almost certainly excludes your alchemist from qualifying you for most of the prestige classes you are talking about who demand the ability to "cast 3rd level arcane spells" or something similar in most (but not all) cases.

Rules as doesn't-hurt, If I had a PC trying to qualify for a prestige class that they otherwise qualified for, I'd probably let them take it with the +1 spellcasting level affecting their extracts in place of spells, but it would be a case by case proposition.

I didn't think so. The class i was referring to is one of the rare ones that doesn't require you to be able to cast arcane or divine spells but still gives you extra spellcasting per level in the class.

[Psyren]

Alchemists are not spellcasters. There are a handful of PrCs that will progress your extracts and such however.

[Firebug]

Take the Spell Knowledge discovery.
Congrats, Alchemist is now an Arcane Caster.

[Psyren]

Take the Spell Knowledge discovery.
Congrats, Alchemist is now an Arcane Caster.

That... huh. I guess I should read Cohorts and Companions at some point.

[Firebug]

I started looking into the Spell Knowledge discovery for my high level PFS alchemist (just hit 20 in PFS this weekend!) for the purposes of addition Sense Vitals as a spell, and using a Lesser Quickened Metamagic Rod to swift cast it at the start of a fight 3/day. It didn't pan out because I forgot I was a natural attacker (claw/claw/bite/gore) and Sense Vitals only works for manufactured weapons.

I then considered using it to qualify for Arcane Strike again (because spell-like abilities used to count), and possibly improved familiar. But I decided to go extend/enhance/eternal potion instead of Arcane Strike and if I used an improved familiar it wouldn't be able to be a protector archetype.

But to the OP, spell knowledge is probably the easiest way to qualify for other prestige classes as an alchemist... if you don't want the higher level discoveries or increasing the effectiveness of your bombs.

[Spore]

My gut instinct says no, but they talk about how alchemists are "magical" a lot in the description of alchemists.

Oh, Alchemists use spells but they do not CAST them. They are magic USERS but not magic CASTERS.

[Psyren]

Oh, Alchemists use spells but they do not CAST them. They are magic USERS but not magic CASTERS.

The discovery above apparently changes that, but on a very delayed spell progression (making it hard to use to qualify for many things, but not impossible.)

[Florian]

I find that a bit dubios.
Being able to cast spells does not change it from being an "Extract Using Class" into a "Spellcasting class", same thing as with the Rogue using one of the Tricks to gain spells.
Looking at the PrCs, the phrasing is still "+1 level of spellcasting class" or "+1 level of arcane spellcasting class".

[Psyren]

I find that a bit dubios.
Being able to cast spells does not change it from being an "Extract Using Class" into a "Spellcasting class", same thing as with the Rogue using one of the Tricks to gain spells.
Looking at the PrCs, the phrasing is still "+1 level of spellcasting class" or "+1 level of arcane spellcasting class".

I did at first too, but apparently this outcome was fully intended by the designer who created it. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sf75?Alchemist-Spell-Knowledge-Discovery)

[Florian]

I did at first too, but apparently this outcome was fully intended by the designer who created it. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sf75?Alchemist-Spell-Knowledge-Discovery)

Oi, major train wreck, then.

Going by the linked comment, I think it is pretty obvious that someone did´t comprehend the full scope such a change would have.
I mean, Vivisectionist and Arcane Trickster, Hyde and Eldritch Knight for full BAB or, more amusingly, an Ib Stone Living Monolith Hyde....

[Psyren]

I saw the Vivisectionist + Arcane Trickster combo lamented a lot but honestly, what does that get you that simply Vivisectionist 20 wouldn't? Your sneak attack doesn't speed up, you can't use extracts with ISA/Tricky Spells/Surprise Spells, you already have Greater Invis on your list - about the only thing it gets you is ranged disable/pickpocketing, and in exchange you get to give up 5 discoveries, persistent mutagen, regenerate and grand discovery (immortality!) Not even remotely worth it.

[Florian]

I saw the Vivisectionist + Arcane Trickster combo lamented a lot but honestly, what does that get you that simply Vivisectionist 20 wouldn't? Your sneak attack doesn't speed up, you can't use extracts with ISA/Tricky Spells/Surprise Spells, you already have Greater Invis on your list - about the only thing it gets you is ranged disable/pickpocketing, and in exchange you get to give up 5 discoveries, persistent mutagen, regenerate and grand discovery (immortality!) Not even remotely worth it.

I didn´t say that it is powerful, but it changes the dynamic of the class quite a bit. The Alchemist has a very nice spell list, but lacks offensive options. There are some basic combat spells that work great with full scaling SA, tho, moving the alchemist into blaster territory without losing out on the great utility it has.

[N. Jolly]

As far as I know, there's only 2 PrCs that are Alch friendly; thruvian alchemist (TERRIBLE) and master chymist, which is a 3 level dip at most. It's not a great situation, but alchemist 1-20 is seriously fine by itself without PrCs.

[Psyren]

I didn´t say that it is powerful, but it changes the dynamic of the class quite a bit. The Alchemist has a very nice spell list, but lacks offensive options. There are some basic combat spells that work great with full scaling SA, tho, moving the alchemist into blaster territory without losing out on the great utility it has.

It's useful, sure, but being restricted to 4ths and lower, and the spell itself being one level higher for the alchemist than it is for a sorceer/wizard is a good balancer in my opinion. Frankly, there's much stronger options for this than a blasting spell, even one that does work with sneak attack. I think Owen successfully strapped this one down enough to avoid causing too much trouble. (A good point of comparison I think is Dreamed Secrets, which was banned.)

Heck, they even kept it PFS legal, which is usually a good temperature check of how worried they are about something that made it to print (see also Sacred Geometry.)


As far as I know, there's only 2 PrCs that are Alch friendly; thruvian alchemist (TERRIBLE) and master chymist, which is a 3 level dip at most. It's not a great situation, but alchemist 1-20 is seriously fine by itself without PrCs.

There's actually one more - Evangelist, which goes with/advances anything. Norgober's boons are in fact specifically designed for alchemists. It's a particularly great way to broaden the Alchemist's skill list.