How much damage would you take from sitting inside of a sun or similar plasma effect?

[Devigor]

So, I have an NPC that I was talking with one of my players about.
This character is pretty much impossible to kill (currently level 20), but he suggested teleporting this character into the sun.
I assume that damage from the sun would be electricity, fire, force, and/or sonic damage.
Is there a "plasma" damage type? Or, more preferably, actual rules for this circumstance?
I'm curious if it would work, since I actually have a specific list of things this NPC is immune to (though it is a really long list), through rules-legal means.
Theoretically, if a natural 1 is rolled, the teleportation could work; the issue is whether or not this would actually hurt him.
Plus, he has Starflight, so getting back (though it would be a hindrance) wouldn't be a big issue.

[Maxrim]

I'd rule it as 40d6 fire, 40d6 bludgeoning, and 80d6 untyped from the pressure per round. Escaping the gravitational pull would be difficult, you'd PROBABLY have to teleport out.

[SethoMarkus]

I'd rule it as 40d6 fire, 40d6 bludgeoning, and 80d6 untyped from the pressure per round. Escaping the gravitational pull would be difficult, you'd PROBABLY have to teleport out.

I'd maybe split the fire between Fire and Electric, as lightning exists in a weaponized form in the game, and lightning is plasma. A star is still essentially a giant explosion/fireball, still, so I'd leave some Fire damage in there.

[Devigor]

I'd rule it as 40d6 fire, 40d6 bludgeoning, and 80d6 untyped from the pressure per round. Escaping the gravitational pull would be difficult, you'd PROBABLY have to teleport out.

I actually used the gravity rules in combination with my homebrew setting ages ago to determine the gravity. The planet's sun has about 24 times the gravity of the planet they live on, and using his fly speed, his Strength score, and the size of the sun in relation to a wizard's fly spell, average human Strength, and the planet's size puts him traveling with Starflight out of the center of the sun and far enough from it to avoid being sucked in when he stops using his flying Run actions in about a day's travel.

As for the damage, thanks bunches. Did you base that on the environmental rules or did you use an educated guess-estimate?

Edit: He's immune to all energy damage and bludgeoning damage. Pressure damage is bludgeoning, too, right? With swallow whole, it seems the case, anyway. Perhaps that untyped could be cosmic/solar in nature? If so, 280 damage each round would put him down for the count in about a minute, so he'd definitely not get out unless he'd prep'd a teleportation effect.

[Belzyk]

Well the sun is a eternal fusion reaction. In all honesty I'd say it doesn't do fire damage but rather untyped damage. The temperature is to high to be fire. The sun may look like a ball of fire but it's actually a liquid/gas fusion there isn't really any fire at all

[Saint GoH]

Kinda depends on where he teleports him into. The center of the sun would have temperatures somewhere around 15 million degrees Celsius. Looking at the data on boiling water (100c), if you are fully submerged you take 10d6 scalding damage per round. So, multiply that by 150,000 and change the damage type (really nothing that quite fits, as its plasma, gravity, and technically yes fire) and there you have your damage.

Bad science. Bad math. Probably not the best answer, but that's how I would have done it if someone asked in my gaming group.

[Belzyk]

I actually used the gravity rules in combination with my homebrew setting ages ago to determine the gravity. The planet's sun has about 24 times the gravity of the planet they live on, and using his fly speed, his Strength score, and the size of the sun in relation to a wizard's fly spell, average human Strength, and the planet's size puts him traveling with Starflight out of the center of the sun and far enough from it to avoid being sucked in when he stops using his flying Run actions in about a day's travel.

As for the damage, thanks bunches. Did you base that on the environmental rules or did you use an educated guess-estimate?

Edit: He's immune to all energy damage and bludgeoning damage. Pressure damage is bludgeoning, too, right? With swallow whole, it seems the case, anyway. Perhaps that untyped could be cosmic/solar in nature? If so, 280 damage each round would put him down for the count in about a minute, so he'd definitely not get out unless he'd prep'd a teleportation effect.

Fly is unaffected by gravity winds or any other forces. Its magic. The spell states it's unaffected by winds so I'd also assume it would be unaffected by gravity because of the nature of moving.

[Belzyk]

Kinda depends on where he teleports him into. The center of the sun would have temperatures somewhere around 15 million degrees Celsius. Looking at the data on boiling water (100c), if you are fully submerged you take 10d6 scalding damage per round. So, multiply that by 150,000 and change the damage type (really nothing that quite fits, as its plasma, gravity, and technically yes fire) and there you have your damage.

Bad science. Bad math. Probably not the best answer, but that's how I would have done it if someone asked in my gaming group.

Unless he has fire immunity which allows swimming in lava

[Honest Tiefling]

Well the sun is a eternal fusion reaction. In all honesty I'd say it doesn't do fire damage but rather untyped damage.

So...It counts as Hellfire damage now? I always hated daylight, and no wonder! I have my eye on you, sun.

[Belzyk]

BTW is this character named Captain Jack Harkness

[Belzyk]

So...It counts as Hellfire damage now? I always hated daylight, and no wonder! I have my eye on you, sun.

Id say yes. But that's saying your universe works like real life Lol. If not then say it's fire lol. Id just go with untyped so nothing can overcome the damage. Because I mean it's a sun.

[Devigor]

Fly is unaffected by gravity winds or any other forces. Its magic. The spell states it's unaffected by winds so I'd also assume it would be unaffected by gravity because of the nature of moving.

I used the Fly speed, not the effect itself. Lots of things have fly speeds around 60 feet, so I used that as a base, since Strength scores vary so much between all the flying creatures.

Edit: The character's name is not, actually. He is a character in my campaigns/books/etc. that is evil and psycho and honestly even Pun-Pun couldn't kill him; even if this sun thing would work, he'd reform in 1d4 hours in the nearest (relatively) safe space. It'd just delay him a lot getting back to the planet, unless he prep'd a teleport.

Edit2: The sun in this solar system is about 88% as hot and powerful as Earth's sun.

[Belzyk]

I used the Fly speed, not the effect itself. Lots of things have fly speeds around 60 feet, so I used that as a base, since Strength scores vary so much between all the flying creatures.

Edit: The character's name is not, actually. He is a character in my campaigns/books/etc. that is evil and psycho and honestly even Pun-Pun couldn't kill him; even if this sun thing would work, he'd reform in 1d4 hours in the nearest (relatively) safe space. It'd just delay him a lot getting back to the planet, unless he prep'd a teleport.

Is this npc a spellcaster per chance?

Yeup that's captain Jack Harkness Lol idk if you've ever watched Dr who or torchwood. But he's a fixed point in time. And that makes him unkillable.

[Devigor]

Is this npc a spellcaster per chance?

Actually, no. He is a Consuming Creature (Pathfinder template).

Edit: Yeah, I know who that is, but this kid has slightly different things going for him. He ate a dread ghost's dissipating corpse. Also, he was put into the Shriver for a very, very long time. At least, it felt like it.

[Belzyk]

Actually, no. He is a Consuming Creature (Pathfinder template).

OK read it. But what's the base creature. I'm just curious.

[Devigor]

OK read it. But what's the base creature. I'm just curious.

Oh, he's a Starborn human variant. I don't remember where it is, but it's a third party thingy that gives the human the Monstrous Humanoid type for a few Race Points using the PF race creation rules. I have it written down, but I don't have a link. Here you go:

"Starborn are treated as humans for all effects relating to race, and share their racial features. They have the monstrous humanoid type, however, though they have the human subtype. When an effect would allow a human to mimic another creature of the humanoid type in any way, a starborn may instead mimic another kind of creature that is a monstrous humanoid or native outsider in the same way."

They get Skilled and a Bonus Feat and that +2 to one ability score just like other Pathfinder humans do. Their RP addition is 7 or 9 points, depending on which version you use. I used the 9, for this guy.

Edit: He qualified using Willing Deformity and Deformity: Teeth.

[Belzyk]

Oh, he's a Starborn human variant. I don't remember where it is, but it's a third party thingy that gives the human the Monstrous Humanoid type for a few Race Points using the PF race creation rules. I have it written down, but I don't have a link. Here you go:

"Starborn are treated as humans for all effects relating to race, and share their racial features. They have the monstrous humanoid type, however, though they have the human subtype. When an effect would allow a human to mimic another creature of the humanoid type in any way, a starborn may instead mimic another kind of creature that is a monstrous humanoid or native outsider in the same way."

They get Skilled and a Bonus Feat and that +2 to one ability score just like other Pathfinder humans do.

That sounds sweet Lol. I never really got into pathfinder. I need to download the books and look into it

[Devigor]

That sounds sweet Lol. I never really got into pathfinder. I need to download the books and look into it

I personally mix 3.5 and PF together, because on its own Pathfinder is missing tons of good material. It's a lot more balanced IME, but that's assuming you keep a party average of Tier 2 or 3.

[Keltest]

Is this npc a spellcaster per chance?

Yeup that's captain Jack Harkness Lol idk if you've ever watched Dr who or torchwood. But he's a fixed point in time. And that makes him unkillable.

My understanding is that he's totally killable. he dies all the time. He just gets better.

[Belzyk]

My understanding is that he's totally killable. he dies all the time. He just gets better.

Well. He can't stay dead. Better? Lol and he has immunity to poisons and diseases

[Devigor]

Well. He can't stay dead. Better? Lol and he has immunity to poisons and diseases

"She turned me into a newt!"
...
"I got better!"

[Belzyk]

"She turned me into a newt!"
...
"I got better!"

Hahahahaha. Oh man. We kinda derailed this post. Lol but yeah 100% untyped if you ask me

[Devigor]

Hahahahaha. Oh man. We kinda derailed this post. Lol but yeah 100% untyped if you ask me

Cool beans, I'll let my player know it would work. But of course, he'd probably try to find the guy once he got out...

[Willie the Duck]

So, I have an NPC that I was talking with one of my players about.
This character is pretty much impossible to kill (currently level 20), but he suggested teleporting this character into the sun.
I assume that damage from the sun would be electricity, fire, force, and/or sonic damage.
Is there a "plasma" damage type? Or, more preferably, actual rules for this circumstance?
I'm curious if it would work, since I actually have a specific list of things this NPC is immune to (though it is a really long list), through rules-legal means.
Theoretically, if a natural 1 is rolled, the teleportation could work; the issue is whether or not this would actually hurt him.
Plus, he has Starflight, so getting back (though it would be a hindrance) wouldn't be a big issue.


Kinda depends on where he teleports him into. The center of the sun would have temperatures somewhere around 15 million degrees Celsius. Looking at the data on boiling water (100c), if you are fully submerged you take 10d6 scalding damage per round. So, multiply that by 150,000 and change the damage type (really nothing that quite fits, as its plasma, gravity, and technically yes fire) and there you have your damage.

Bad science. Bad math. Probably not the best answer, but that's how I would have done it if someone asked in my gaming group.

Well, anywhere but the surface, he'd also be crushed under thousands of tons/square inch of pressure.

[Âmesang]

From the SPELLJAMMER® supplement, "Greyspace," regarding the Oerth's sun:


A character in physical contact with Liga's core suffers 45d6 points of damage per round from the heat (save vs. breath weapon for half damage). Because of the portals connecting the core to the elemental plane of Fire, this heat is considered magical in origin; thus, magical items that protect the user against normal—non magical—fire are ineffective in countering this damage. A character immersed in the burning photosphere suffers 30d6 points of damage per round (save vs. breath weapon for half damage); this is considered non magical fire for the purposes of protective magics.

…granted, that was 2nd Edition, and Liga had properties that made it quite different from a real sun (such as the aforementioned portals).

[kyoryu]

If you were in the center of the sun?

Chunky salsa rule. Anything that would logically reduce your character to chunky salsa just kills you. "Being in the center of the sun" definitely qualifies.

[Devigor]

Well, anywhere but the surface, he'd also be crushed under thousands of tons/square inch of pressure.

He's immune to bludgeoning damage. Pressure = bludgeoning damage. He is impossible to squish.


From the SPELLJAMMER® supplement, "Greyspace," regarding the Oerth's sun:
…granted, that was 2nd Edition, and Liga had properties that made it quite different from a real sun (such as the aforementioned portals).

He's immune to all fire damage except hellfire, and even then it deals nonlethal damage to him. A red dragon's fire breath is magical, and he's immune to it.


If you were in the center of the sun?
Chunky salsa rule. Anything that would logically reduce your character to chunky salsa just kills you. "Being in the center of the sun" definitely qualifies.

Logically, it wouldn't reduce him to chunky salsa, as far as I've been able to tell. It'd kill him with untyped damage after some amount of time, if it were explained where that untyped damage is from. If we're going with the "it's like hellfire" ruling, then he'd be burned up after a minute or so, but again, that's nonlethal for him, so I'm unsure. If we don't consider the sun to be dealing insanely high epic hellfire warlock amounts of damage, he's fine, but I think the sun is an epic-level obstacle. :smalltongue: I'm keeping the ruling at 80d6 untyped damage for now, but I'm still looking for what that damage is.

Edit: For a quick explanation for how I mean, this NPC could probably kill Superman, and Pun-Pun could not kill him. For most characters, I'd say the Chunky Salsa rule works, but when they are 20th level... I'm more open.

[Battleship789]

*snip*

Edit: For a quick explanation for how I mean, this NPC could probably kill Superman, and Pun-Pun could not kill him. For most characters, I'd say the Chunky Salsa rule works, but when they are 20th level... I'm more open.

If we are discussing whether teleporting this being into a sun could kill him, I'm pretty sure that means Pun-Pun could do the job...

As far as the damage from being in the sun, it is a lot of fire, electricity, and pressure (bludgeoning) damage, as well as excessive amounts of radiation. A super hot object does not deal special types of fire damage, it just does more fire damage. AFAIK, there aren't any rules for radiation in base 3.5 (can probably find some in d20 Modern or the Star Wars games,) so I'm of the opinion that teleporting this being into a sun wouldn't kill him (unless he needs to breathe for some reason.)

[Straybow]

Untyped just means it doesn't fall into any of the predefined categories of natural and magical energy damage.

For example, a laser wouldn't be fire. The barrage of photons, nominally just "light," strips away electrons holding the atoms together, turning them into a plasma-like state. Surrounding matter starts to absorb the heat radiated and conducted into it. That matter may burst into flame, but the damage of the laser itself would not be fire.

Plasma itself isn't lightning. Plasma is just what you get when the electrical current passes through the air. Lightning in its essence is high energy electrons moving very fast (several km/s). Plasma dumps heat energy into whatever it contacts, true. But it isn't just that, the electrons are interacting with the bonds of the atoms, and the anions (or whatever the positive complements are called in plasma) are busy trying to steal electrons from the solid...

You get both types of effect on/in a star. The photon pressure would have a laser-like effect, and then you have the plasma.

Now, the idea that you could "roll damage for being inside the star" is a bit preposterous. Think of it this way. Magical energy causes harm, but is never so powerful that it consumes completely. A disintegration effect does, but that isn't a typed energy. If there is any way for living beings to survive it, it probably isn't that much energy on a purely scientific scale. It takes 1600°F or so, for 1+ hour per 100 lb, to cremate a body. Natural gas fueled retorts are around 150kW, with some up to 400kW (maybe for obese bodies).

Being in the 10,000°F photosphere of a star would dump that much thermal energy into the body in seconds. Solar radiance is about 20MW/m². Compare that to the 20-30kW lasers being tested by the US military: about 1000 of them concentrated on 1 m², so about 2000 shooting at an average man (~2 m²) from all angles. (sorry for the mix of SI and non-SI units)

Sorry, your "I'm immune to everything" character is going to be vaporized in an instant.

[Strigon]

15 million degrees Celsius... Looking at the data on boiling water (100c),... multiply that by 150,000


No... no... please, no more!

[Devigor]

If we are discussing whether teleporting this being into a sun could kill him, I'm pretty sure that means Pun-Pun could do the job...

(Snip'd stuff)

Rephrase: Pun-Pun could kill him, but he'd respawn in 1d4 hours.

As for this ruling, I'd say this is the closest in game terms that the damage from the sun would be to realistic expectation. Thanks for the input.


Untyped just means it doesn't fall into any of the predefined categories of natural and magical energy damage.

(Snip'd)

Sorry, your "I'm immune to everything" character is going to be vaporized in an instant.

As for the first part about lasers: Lasers = agitating matter = heating it = fire damage. If it bursts into flame, it is because of fire damage. This is how D&D rules work. Not only that, but this character is immune to light effects... Which is exactly what lasers are. That being said, this does help define the type of damage used by some of the dice: light-based energy damage, similar to prismatic effects and laser weaponry. In real life, this character would absorb that energy, harness it, and release it in some form. Likely, he'd be radioactive and shine like a big light bulb. P.S.: He's immune to radiation.

As for plasma, you literally just described electric current. One electron is pulled from one atom to another, and then another, and another... I think it's safe to say that D&D would make this electricity damage. He's immune to that, too, but again, this does help me determine exactly what damage types should be used.

As for what you said about rolling damage for a sun being preposterous... You've never played Palladium Rifts, have you?

Also, your entire point about cremating someone is moot. Temperature = heat = fire damage. Immunity. Higher degrees just add extra d6's. It's still just fire damage; no matter how long you stick a fire elemental in a magic cremation chamber, that fire elemental will be cozy and safe.

There's a reason I said this NPC couldn't be killed by Pun-Pun (permanently).

Edit: That being said, I'm using untyped damage mixed with electricity/fire/etc. to mimic the effects as best I can to reality. He'll die in about 9 minutes. It takes him about 6.5 hours to get out by flying, so he's killed. He respawns 1d4 hours later far enough away from the sun to avoid further damage, and then takes 3d20 hours to get back to the planet.

[Esprit15]

If you're going to go the "Pun-Pun can't kill him route," you're wrong. Aside from the fact that there are so many ways to kill someone besides death (save or die, sphere of annihilation, etc), there's also divine abilities like Hand of Death (Save DC is infinite from Pun Pun).

That all said, given that arbitrarily high Hellfire damage would knock him unconscious, he's basically stuck there forever, since anyone else who went to rescue him would either die or be similarly knocked out, he's for all practical purposes dead, which is almost better. No resurrections to worry about. If you can find a way to prevent him from being wished back, you've killed them without killing them.

[Psyren]

In Pathfinder, the sun instantly vaporizes anyone without full fire immunity - no damage or save. Even if you're immune to fire (e.g. from Fiery Body), you need a device or ward that can withstand the crushing pressure from its high gravity for the duration of your visit, and even that will only protect you near the surface. Golarion's sun has gravity 28x higher than the planet, and so you'll need Freedom of Movement, incorporeality or similar to move at all.

In Golarion's solar system, the sun serves as a portal to both the Plane of Fire and the Positive Energy Plane. Getting to the latter requires going to the core, a dangerous prospect for all but the highest-level mythic adventurers.

[Jowgen]

The closest thing to an actual sun I have yet to find in game, and use as such in my games, is the Inferno Star (Dragon 347 p. 49). It's a natural hazard found on the elemental plane of fire that can be miles in diameter and the closer you get (in miles) the more you are subject to both rising heat that ignores Fire res/immunity (while still having to contend with the fire-dominant trait) and have to start making saves against permanent blindness at first, then outright destruction.

Being inside an inferno star means a DC 30 Fort save each round against being destroyed, which is worse than physical contact with Voidstone (DC 25).

[Deophaun]

As for the first part about lasers: Lasers = agitating matter = heating it = fire damage.
So acid damage is fire damage (the chemical interaction itself isn't the thing that's causing blistering and your skin to slough off: it's the energy released by the exothermic reaction heating the water in your skin and muscles doing it)? Lightning damage is fire damage?

Nope, this is not how D&D rules work.

To the actual question, the sun is such an extreme environment with exotic-for-D&D damage types that, unless the stat block says something like "immune to the Sun," you just die if you find yourself inside it. We aren't even talking about radiation here: as the bulk of your matter is below the atomic weight of iron, your body is being used as fusable material to fuel the sun. The hydrogen in your water molecules is being converted to helium. Maybe immunity to transmutation effects can protect you from that. Maybe. If you're really generous.

[torrasque666]

All these people going on about pressure damage being bludgeoning. Did y'all forget its actually a thing on its own? Stormwrack, page 11.

[Chronikoce]

Yeah I have to chime in here as well (response may be a bit jumbled as I won't have time to edit for clarity atm)

Heat =/= fire
Brief list of things that cause heat and result in fire but don't make sense to cause fire damage
Lightning, Chemical reactions, Friction, Extreme pressure, focused light.

Furthermore, I think you're really underestimating what the sun is doing and furthermore what plasma is.

This isn't a case of "ouch that's hot, better flip on my fire immunity and giggle"

This is a case of the energy is so high that the very bonds holding atoms together are incapable of continuing to do so.

Plasma is actually a state of matter (and actually tends to have zero net charge). It does conduct electricity extremely well so if you touched a plasma you would be electrocuted but you would also be burned by the extreme temperature. The ability to conduct electricity well is true of a metal rod and you wouldn't say a hot metal rod deals electrical damage, ergo plasma does not in of itself deal electrical damage.

Lava isn't even on the same order of magnitude as this. Being submerged in Lava is just hot. Being submerged in the sun physically makes it impossible for the bonds in your body to remain bonded.

As a side note: a reflex save vs the damage in the sun is nonsense. If you've been dropped into the center of the sun there is no dodging anything unless your ability to dodge takes you out of the material plane I suppose.

Honestly what I think this comes down to is that we are trying to assign damage numbers to the sun when the sun is not an HP damage source. It's a save or die effect that targets a save that characters don't have. Reflex and will obviously make no sense and fortitude isn't going to hold your bonds together against fusion (for example creatures immune to Fort saves are still easily annihilated by fusion in the sun) . Basically you stop being you and become 'the jumble of elementary particles formerly known as you'.

[Jay R]

On a related topic, Randall Munroe wrote, "You wouldn't really die of anything, in the traditional sense. You would just stop being biology and start being physics (http://what-if.xkcd.com/141/)."

[Chronikoce]

On a related topic, Randall Munroe wrote, "You wouldn't really die of anything, in the traditional sense. You would just stop being biology and start being physics (http://what-if.xkcd.com/141/)."

Yup, basically this. It's not a damage type. It's just a cessation of being you.

[CrazyNoob]

Not sure if this (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon1.1.htm) would answer the post, but it does bring up some interesting information relating to the topic and a good starting point.

The table in the middle of the page, shows the aprox damage each level of heat a person would be subjected to and the amount of resistances to avoid base on the temperature of the source.. Although this probly only works if you change energy immunity to resistance.

[martixy]

I'd maybe split the fire between Fire and Electric, as lightning exists in a weaponized form in the game, and lightning is plasma. A star is still essentially a giant explosion/fireball, still, so I'd leave some Fire damage in there.

Er... what?
Lightning creates plasma, not the other way around.
But in any case, that quote from xkcd dude is very on-point.

Though in D&D a star might work very differently from our universe.
Magic is always a valid explanation. And honestly is the better one in this case.

Mixing real-world physics with D&D is nothing more than a headache.

If I was to be forced to do it, I'd say for ingame purposes there's different kinds of pressure and heat.
Immunity to the kind of pressure mentioned in stormwrack would do you little good in the center of the sun.

I agree with @Straybow. Based solely on physics no immunity or save you can acquire would count as enough immunity to save you from being converted into a highly energetic cloud of matter.

This discussion is utterly pointless.
The only valid answer possible is "you-die damage".

@Deophaun
That is NOT how acid works.
It involves a process called protonation and any thermal energy is most often a by-product.

[Ravenica]

Well, the sun is a star, which makes it a bit of a Diva, so clearly it deals divine damage :P

[Flickerdart]

Looking at the data on boiling water (100c), if you are fully submerged you take 10d6 scalding damage per round. So, multiply that by 150,000...
By that logic, someone swimming in lukewarm 20C water would take 2d6 damage per round.

[Straybow]

If he isn't immune to hellfire (I think, by definition, nothing is), then he isn't immune to other forms of fire++, and nothing is more extreme than the sun. Even if the Golarion sun isn't a fusion engine but an outpost of elemental fire, unless you are fire, you can't survive.

I'm also curious what his fly speed is, if he can fly out from a deep teleport in the sun in 6½ hours. Halfway to the core would be a depth of 220k miles, give or take a few 10k if not the exact size of Sol. 36k mph would be a nice, round 10 miles per second. That's the speed of a cometary solar orbit, achieved in a superdense "fluid" environment. Quite a trick even for magic.

That people discuss things like this as though "sensible" is mutter mutter mutter
[transcript ends, mumbling too indistinct]

[Deophaun]

By that logic, someone swimming in lukewarm 20C water would take 2d6 damage per round.
Death by rapid-onset pruning.

[Psyren]

If he isn't immune to hellfire (I think, by definition, nothing is), then he isn't immune to other forms of fire++, and nothing is more extreme than the sun. Even if the Golarion sun isn't a fusion engine but an outpost of elemental fire, unless you are fire, you can't survive.

The idea is that, with sufficiently powerful magic you can protect yourself enough to adventure there. There is even a level 16 wizard that lives on Golarion's sun (in a protected tower), there are efreet who have a warded outpost there, and there are very large whale-like fire elementals that "swim" along the outside.

Note that standard spelunking spells like Planar/Planetary Adaptation specifically don't work - but Wish and Fiery Body do, at least temporarily (and you generally need both.)

[Arael666]

Untyped just means it doesn't fall into any of the predefined categories of natural and magical energy damage.

For example, a laser wouldn't be fire. The barrage of photons, nominally just "light," strips away electrons holding the atoms together, turning them into a plasma-like state. Surrounding matter starts to absorb the heat radiated and conducted into it. That matter may burst into flame, but the damage of the laser itself would not be fire.

Plasma itself isn't lightning. Plasma is just what you get when the electrical current passes through the air. Lightning in its essence is high energy electrons moving very fast (several km/s). Plasma dumps heat energy into whatever it contacts, true. But it isn't just that, the electrons are interacting with the bonds of the atoms, and the anions (or whatever the positive complements are called in plasma) are busy trying to steal electrons from the solid...

You get both types of effect on/in a star. The photon pressure would have a laser-like effect, and then you have the plasma.

Now, the idea that you could "roll damage for being inside the star" is a bit preposterous. Think of it this way. Magical energy causes harm, but is never so powerful that it consumes completely. A disintegration effect does, but that isn't a typed energy. If there is any way for living beings to survive it, it probably isn't that much energy on a purely scientific scale. It takes 1600°F or so, for 1+ hour per 100 lb, to cremate a body. Natural gas fueled retorts are around 150kW, with some up to 400kW (maybe for obese bodies).

Being in the 10,000°F photosphere of a star would dump that much thermal energy into the body in seconds. Solar radiance is about 20MW/m². Compare that to the 20-30kW lasers being tested by the US military: about 1000 of them concentrated on 1 m², so about 2000 shooting at an average man (~2 m²) from all angles. (sorry for the mix of SI and non-SI units)

Sorry, your "I'm immune to everything" character is going to be vaporized in an instant.

Pretty much what I had in mind, really, I was just gonna sum it up with "He just dies, no save" :smallwink:

[kyoryu]

Pretty much what I had in mind, really, I was just gonna sum it up with "He just dies, no save" :smallwink:

"Chunky Salsa Rule"

(though, yes, not chunky salsa, but the principle applies)

[atemu1234]

Is this npc a spellcaster per chance?

Yeup that's captain Jack Harkness Lol idk if you've ever watched Dr who or torchwood. But he's a fixed point in time. And that makes him unkillable.

Rather, he always restores, at least physically, to being who he was at that point in time - for some reason he still accumulates memory, but he can't go insane - proven by the master, by being buried for millenia, etc.


Untyped just means it doesn't fall into any of the predefined categories of natural and magical energy damage.

For example, a laser wouldn't be fire. The barrage of photons, nominally just "light," strips away electrons holding the atoms together, turning them into a plasma-like state. Surrounding matter starts to absorb the heat radiated and conducted into it. That matter may burst into flame, but the damage of the laser itself would not be fire.

Plasma itself isn't lightning. Plasma is just what you get when the electrical current passes through the air. Lightning in its essence is high energy electrons moving very fast (several km/s). Plasma dumps heat energy into whatever it contacts, true. But it isn't just that, the electrons are interacting with the bonds of the atoms, and the anions (or whatever the positive complements are called in plasma) are busy trying to steal electrons from the solid...

You get both types of effect on/in a star. The photon pressure would have a laser-like effect, and then you have the plasma.

Now, the idea that you could "roll damage for being inside the star" is a bit preposterous. Think of it this way. Magical energy causes harm, but is never so powerful that it consumes completely. A disintegration effect does, but that isn't a typed energy. If there is any way for living beings to survive it, it probably isn't that much energy on a purely scientific scale. It takes 1600°F or so, for 1+ hour per 100 lb, to cremate a body. Natural gas fueled retorts are around 150kW, with some up to 400kW (maybe for obese bodies).

Being in the 10,000°F photosphere of a star would dump that much thermal energy into the body in seconds. Solar radiance is about 20MW/m². Compare that to the 20-30kW lasers being tested by the US military: about 1000 of them concentrated on 1 m², so about 2000 shooting at an average man (~2 m²) from all angles. (sorry for the mix of SI and non-SI units)

Sorry, your "I'm immune to everything" character is going to be vaporized in an instant.

Yes, yes, physics get in the way of our fun.

Not everything can (or needs to be) statted out in D&D. For what's being suggested, I'd say he's dealt [NI] amount of damage of about every type per round. If he can survive that, then he's still at the center of a star, unconscious. Good luck getting him out.

[Arael666]

Not everything can (or needs to be) statted out in D&D. For what's being suggested, I'd say he's dealt [NI] amount of damage of about every type per round. If he can survive that, then he's still at the center of a star, unconscious. Good luck getting him out.

Explain to me how would he take cold damage inside a star :smallbiggrin:

[Âmesang]

Explain to me how would he take cold damage inside a star :smallbiggrin:
Freezer burn, of course! :smallamused:

[Saint GoH]

By that logic, someone swimming in lukewarm 20C water would take 2d6 damage per round.

Like I said; bad science. Just took what rules I could find (being dumped in scalding water) and extrapolated it out. As others have pointed out, its probably not the best method, but in a very simple way it makes sense(ish).

[BearonVonMu]

I've always called the damage from plasma based weapons hellfire, and am pleased that other people have come to the same conclusion.
Inside of a star?
Whatever damage you would use to simulate extreme pressure with a side dish of lots of hellfire damage for the heat. Oh, and don't forget there's nothing to breathe there.
On the surface?
I'd use the damage from Nailed to the Sky as a starter (2d6 cold, 2d6 fire, 1d4 vacuum, plus suffocation), adding a multiplier every round (2d6 round 1, 4d6 round 2, 3d6 round 3, etc.).

[DarthSpader]

Even if he was immune to the damage - the gravity would simply trap him there. Just because he's not being killed or taking damage - the gravity forces would essentially pin him in place with his own weight. His "abilities" and strength etc would remain the same but he would weigh huge amounts more. Thousands of times more then normal. He would be stuck in place - unable to move. Unable to die. (Sort of like bootstrap bill in pirates 2) freedom of movement is useless in this case as there is nothing that impedes or prevents movement - gravity is a normal condition. In this case it's simply ALOT of gravity. And teleportation and so forth could be likewise prevented same as any spell. When you can't move you can't do somatic components or even move your mouth - so no spells unless they are silent+still. In addition, if the character breathes at all, (even if he breathes in vacuum) - he will suffocate as the gravity crushes the air from his lungs. It would also constrict his blood vessels and cause heart/brain failure. And with gravity pinning him In place ..... Sorry but unless he's a god - he is gonna be stuck there untill he dies from medical means - and long after as a corpse, or stuck in a ever repeating death, wake up to find himself in the same situation, doomed to die over and over. At best - simply trapped and not able to move or otherwise escape.

Sucks to be him.

[Battleship789]

Even if he was immune to the damage - the gravity would simply trap him there. Just because he's not being killed or taking damage - the gravity forces would essentially pin him in place with his own weight. His "abilities" and strength etc would remain the same but he would weigh huge amounts more. Thousands of times more then normal. He would be stuck in place - unable to move. Unable to die. (Sort of like bootstrap bill in pirates 2) freedom of movement is useless in this case as there is nothing that impedes or prevents movement - gravity is a normal condition. In this case it's simply ALOT of gravity. And teleportation and so forth could be likewise prevented same as any spell. When you can't move you can't do somatic components or even move your mouth - so no spells unless they are silent+still. In addition, if the character breathes at all, (even if he breathes in vacuum) - he will suffocate as the gravity crushes the air from his lungs. It would also constrict his blood vessels and cause heart/brain failure. And with gravity pinning him In place ..... Sorry but unless he's a god - he is gonna be stuck there untill he dies from medical means - and long after as a corpse, or stuck in a ever repeating death, wake up to find himself in the same situation, doomed to die over and over. At best - simply trapped and not able to move or otherwise escape.

Sucks to be him.

You are technically incorrect, though the end result is mostly the same: The gravitational force at the center of an object is zero, so he is actually weightless. However, the rest of the star is being pulled to the center, via gravity, crushing him.

Specifically, in a uniform object (which the sun isn't, but this will work as a demonstration), the gravitational pull of said object increases linearly as you travel from the center of the object (starting at 0), reaching a maximum at the surface, then decreases at a squared inverse of the distance from the center after leaving the surface of said object. So it becomes harder to leave, due to gravity, the closer to the surface you are. However, the force of the mass "above" you (pressure) is much higher the closer to the center you are, so it is harder to move the closer one is to the center of an object.

[Elxir_Breauer]

There are places in the Elemental Plane of Fire that can, and often do, incinerate even Fire Elementals of incredible power. These areas are often statted out as dealing 1/2 damage even to creatures normally immune to Fire damage (including Deities under a certain divine rank, if memory serves). Just use those rules for the Sun and you'll have a way to keep burning him to death. As for his ability to reform in the nearest "safe" location in 1d4 hours... That location would be entirely up to the DM to adjudicate, and would likely be based on his ability to survive so many different environmental effects. At a certain point, the surface of the Sun would become a semi-safe location, but would still (due to the gravity involved) most likely require teleportation or Plane Shift to leave.

I would tend to agree with the posters saying that it wouldn't necessarily deal any calculable amount of damage at all, and would simply atomize him if he was sent directly to the center of the Sun.

[Devigor]

Well, the sun is a star, which makes it a bit of a Diva, so clearly it deals divine damage :P
Best answer ever. Can I sig this (once I know how/am able)?


There are places in the Elemental Plane of Fire that can, and often do, incinerate even Fire Elementals of incredible power. These areas are often statted out as dealing 1/2 damage even to creatures normally immune to Fire damage (including Deities under a certain divine rank, if memory serves). Just use those rules for the Sun and you'll have a way to keep burning him to death. As for his ability to reform in the nearest "safe" location in 1d4 hours... That location would be entirely up to the DM to adjudicate, and would likely be based on his ability to survive so many different environmental effects. At a certain point, the surface of the Sun would become a semi-safe location, but would still (due to the gravity involved) most likely require teleportation or Plane Shift to leave.

I would tend to agree with the posters saying that it wouldn't necessarily deal any calculable amount of damage at all, and would simply atomize him if he was sent directly to the center of the Sun.
This is the best answer so far for in-game terms, IMO.

A lot of you guys have missed a couple things... For one thing, yes he can "die", but when I say Pun-Pun cannot kill him permanently, I am not wrong. He has improved rejuvenation. Even Pun-Pun cannot permanently put him down, with Pun-Pun's NI stats and abilities list. Second thing, when he does die, he respawns in the nearest safe place, so he'd be outside of the sun. Third thing, he's immune to lots of damage types but not all of them. I find hellfire to be the best representation here, and to simply make it a save-or-die with [hellfire] as a descriptor (and a Fortitude DC of over 9,000) sounds about right. He burns up, dies, respawns further away, and then does what he likes afterwards. I've not seen an example of a creature with an auto-succeed for Fortitude effects yet, and I sure haven't seen one that can do so before this damage would occur. Even if there were one, this guy hasn't eaten one yet.

I am the GM and I want him to survive, but I have not (and never will) use "plot device" as a reason to keep someone from being turned to "chunky salsa". I needed an in-game explanation, and since there is no way for him to survive hellfire damage, he gets hell-incinerated to itty-bitty atoms. Solved, case closed; that being said, many of you have put forward some excellent arguments for physics stuff. I like those. :smallsmile:

[Straybow]

Can his soul be trapped after the body is crisped?

[Bucky]

A Fly effect might not be sufficient to actually move through a star's core. Stellar-core-matter isn't really a gas - it behaves much more like a liquid that's more than 10 times denser than solid gold, although even then it's debatable whether it counts as a fluid on human time-scales.

On the other hand, if your NPC can actually survive inside the core without phasing or being compressed, AND can get it to act like a fluid, the force of buoyancy will move him towards the surface even if he's unconscious - but it'd take a few hundred thousand years to reach the gassy parts.

[Esprit15]

Looking at the rejuvenation ability (can I get a source on improved rejuvenation?), you need to be killed by god of higher rank in order to be perma-killed. That's how most salient divine abilities work.

[Bronk]

Hmm, I'm getting in on this late but...

I think I'd just go with a person stuck in the center of a star, assuming a somewhat close to reality star, but using DnD rules, as taking an amount of fire (from all that heat), light (turns out the core of a star is transparent) and pressure damage that would kill more or less instantly unless immune somehow. I'd probably give a round of leeway because of wish transport shenanigans.

Protecting against this would need fire immunity (spells, fire subtype, magic items), light immunity (a darkness spell of some kind, being a crystal dragon, etc.), and immunity to pressure damage (spells, necklace of adaptation, etc.).

But DnD stars? Probably just fire or light damage. It doesn't come up much unless you're using Spelljammer rules anyway, and a good portion of the time you'd be talking about a Starbeast, which would be cool by itself!

On the other hand, it was really cool reading about Golarian's sun! Awesome! I'm not sure why you wouldn't just plane shift to the plane of fire or the positive energy plane though.

[Devigor]

Can his soul be trapped after the body is crisped?

Nope. Immune to soul-affecting magic.


Looking at the rejuvenation ability (can I get a source on improved rejuvenation?), you need to be killed by god of higher rank in order to be perma-killed. That's how most salient divine abilities work.

Not salient divine ability or what have you; it's a pathfinder thing, look at Ghost and Dread Ghost. Pun-pun may know a lot of things, but I -- as the GM -- am the only one that could permanently put down this particular NPC.


Protecting against this would need fire immunity (spells, fire subtype, magic items), light immunity (a darkness spell of some kind, being a crystal dragon, etc.), and immunity to pressure damage (spells, necklace of adaptation, etc.).

He actually is immune to all three of those.

So, it hasn't occured in the game yet; one of my players is aimig to try it somewhere down the line, though, if he can set it up. I think I'll use 10d6 damage of each energy type, including positive and negative energy, and then 10d6 hellfire and 10d6 divine damage as well. All of that, each round. He is immune to most of it, but takes the hellfire and divine damage every round until he gets melted.

[Coidzor]

The heat would mean fire damage. Possibly even fire damage that ignore resistance and certain forms of immunity.

The fusion and all would mean radiation out the wazoo, IIRC, so whatever we'd use to represent gamma exposure.

Then the pressure/gravitic action would probably be a mix of bludgeoning and untyped.

Direct exposure to plasma could also be electric.

If you're making NPCs that the players could throw into the sun(unlike Asmodeus) but not kill(like Asmodeus), you should think long and hard about the decisions that lead you to this place.

[Efrate]

As for the pun pun immunity, just alter realty to strip all abilities of Sue and throw a divine rank to irradicate him permanently. Unless NpC has divinity, and unless pathfinder changed how that works, in a deity's with alter reality realm, which is distinct and different from wish if he is somehow immune to wish, he can change as he see fit and only a higher rank deity can overcome that.

Imprisonment doesn't target the soul either FWIW. Just trapped without a way to get out. Antimagic field made permanent to deny the rejuvification because I am guessing its a supernatural ability. A private demiplane with time so slow that by the time he takes one action billions of years as passed would work as well. Combine that with said imprisonment/AMF/whatever.

Trap him in mundane chains in Sigil let the lady laugh at him.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Note that a ghost's rejuvenation is a (Su) ability - it does not function inside an antimagic field. Pun-Pun would be able to trap or kill them inside the field, then remove the Rejuvenation ability from the person or corpse, all while still inside an antimagic field, thanks to Alter Reality. Pun-Pun also knows why the ghost keeps returning (with infinite knowledge checks), and can use salient divine abilities to change the ghost's motivation, or simply to solve their problem.

tl;dr You really can't stop Pun-Pun very well by RAW (but I'm not arguing your DM powers).

[JNAProductions]

So, question-why does this character exist? He doesn't seem very fun.

[Necromancy]

Explain to me how would he take cold damage inside a star :smallbiggrin:

Cold fusion!

Some thoughts...

Radiation damage is divine typed. The sun releases so much radiation that it could fry our whole planet without the geomagnetic field.
And before you ask, no there is no immunity

You cannot breathe on the sun.

Your gear, food, spell components, etc are all likely ash

No character is unkillable. Deities aren't even unkillable.