Greenfire Multiclass Mess

[Naanomi]

Forgive me if this has been done before but...

I was making a 'fire themed' party (Fire Sorcerer, Light Cleric, Moon Druid) and wanted someone to go Melee with Greenfire Blade. There seems to be quite a number of ways to add damage to this...

Undying Light Warlock 1: Charisma to the Fire Damage
(Red/Gold) Dragon Sorcerer 6: Charisma to the Fire Damage
Oathbreaker Paladin 7: Charisma to the Weapon Damage

I can stay in Charisma, bump up to Warlock 3 for Shillelagh via Tome; ultimately hitting for 4d8+4X(Charisma) to the first target and 3d8+3X(Charisma) to the second... and can tack on Searing Smite for another 1d6 (or more)+2X(Charisma); and perhaps an impressive amount of burn damage beyond that; as well as the potential to Quicken another swing in.

In theory I can reach into other stats (Arcane Cleric for Wisdom, boost the base damage by going with a Strength/GWM approach) but it doesn't seem nearly as clean.

The question is: I have 4 more levels, I can put it all in Paladin (for another 1d8 Improved Divine Smite); or pour more levels into Warlock or Sorcerer for versatile spell-slots (Smite, Sorcerer Points, etc); or I can get 2 Fighter and really nova with a third swing.

How do I proceed?

[Misterwhisper]

Forgive me if this has been done before but...

I was making a 'fire themed' party (Fire Sorcerer, Light Cleric, Moon Druid) and wanted someone to go Melee with Greenfire Blade. There seems to be quite a number of ways to add damage to this...

Undying Light Warlock 1: Charisma to the Fire Damage
(Red/Gold) Dragon Sorcerer 6: Charisma to the Fire Damage
Oathbreaker Paladin 7: Charisma to the Weapon Damage

I can stay in Charisma, bump up to Warlock 3 for Shillelagh via Tome; ultimately hitting for 4d8+4X(Charisma) to the first target and 3d8+3X(Charisma) to the second... and can tack on Searing Smite for another 1d6 (or more)+2X(Charisma); and perhaps an impressive amount of burn damage beyond that; as well as the potential to Quicken another swing in.

In theory I can reach into other stats (Arcane Cleric for Wisdom, boost the base damage by going with a Strength/GWM approach) but it doesn't seem nearly as clean.

The question is: I have 4 more levels, I can put it all in Paladin (for another 1d8 Improved Divine Smite); or pour more levels into Warlock or Sorcerer for versatile spell-slots (Smite, Sorcerer Points, etc); or I can get 2 Fighter and really nova with a third swing.

How do I proceed?

I would go fighter 2 and warlock 2, to get: Action Surge, tome and thus Shillelagh, and a fighting style of your choice.

Although keep in mind no combination of extra attack from other classes would give you 3 normal attacks, only fighter 11 would do that, also it would be pointless anyway because you do not have a way to attack and still be able to use GFB.

[Crgaston]

Would the fire charisma bonuses stack?

[RickAllison]

Since you are already using Unearthed Arcana, I heartily recommend looking at the Minotaur race. The horns give you a powerful weapon that can always be used with GFB. I'm running a wizard Minotaur with that and he is a blast.

[Misterwhisper]

Would the fire charisma bonuses stack?

As far as everything I have seen, yes.

[R.Shackleford]

Would the fire charisma bonuses stack?

Yup.

General rule of thumb for 5e is that if it benefits a caster then it probabaly is legit.

The only time I've seen a ruling go the other way is If you are targeting more than one creature with a spell.

Scorching Ray with a red dragon sorcerer only applies +Cha once and not with each Ray. However Eldritch Bolt still applies +cha to each because the creators apparently flipped a coin.

[Naanomi]

Fighter 2, Warlock 4, Sorcerer 6, Paladin 8 (in some order dependent on starting level; need to start with fighter or paladin for Heavy Armor; if starting high enough begin with Fighter for Con saves)

Half elf for stat spread of 15/8/16/8/10/16

ASI to max Charisma then Elemental Adept and Warcaster

Spells beyond Hex and Searing Smite not too important

Duelist and Defensive fighting styles; AC 21

Sound good?

[R.Shackleford]

Fighter 2, Warlock 4, Sorcerer 6, Paladin 8 (in some order dependent on starting level; need to start with fighter or paladin for Heavy Armor; if starting high enough begin with Fighter for Con saves)

Half elf for stat spread of 15/8/16/8/10/16

ASI to max Charisma then Elemental Adept and Warcaster

Spells beyond Hex and Searing Smite not too important

Duelist and Defensive fighting styles; AC 21

Sound good?

For the ranom person who sees this...

The thing about 5e is that moar damage is a waste. Yeah it's fun to make theoretical builds and still but large damage output isn't needed in this game.

Moderately optimized characters do more than enough damage. To keep up with the game.

That being said, is there a reason you want heavy armor?

It seems like Dragon 13 AC + Dex focus + Shield + Shield Spell would be more than enough AC.

You aren't using your strength to swing your shillelagh.

This Dex > Str also boosts your initiative score.

[Arkhios]

... is there a reason you want heavy armor?

It seems like Dragon 13 AC + Dex focus + Shield + Shield Spell would be more than enough AC.

You aren't using your strength to swing your shillelagh.

This Dex > Str also boosts your initiative score.

If I may, I believe the reason to use heavy armor is probably because a paladin multiclass already requires a minimum 13 strength. And those stats seem to be point buy with standard 27 points, going that much into strength means you'd be better just go all the way up since you're running short on points at this point. Besides, a suggested Defense fighting style only functions if you wear an armor of some type. Draconic Resilience isn't an armor.

[R.Shackleford]

If I may, I believe the reason to use heavy armor is probably because a paladin multiclass already requires a minimum 13 strength. And those stats seem to be point buy with standard 27 points, going that much into strength means you'd be better just go all the way up since you're running short on points at this point. Besides, a suggested Defense fighting style only functions if you wear an armor of some type. Draconic Resilience isn't an armor.

Even if you are going the armor route, you only need 13 strength. The negative dex will cause more damage to you, by going last more times than not and failing dex saves... You are essentially counter acting your high Con.

13 strength gives you a carrying capacity of 195lbs. If you go for a higher armor, needing a 15 to offset the oenalty, I would just grab Mobile feat as it will be more useful than the +2 str. For purposes of armor you are getting that +2 Str but also getting a pseudo disengage which will be super awesome.

And if you go Dex > Str and ever find yourself out of armor? Your AC doesn't suck. You have initiative on a "active" combatant (reactive characters can have a low Initiative), and you don't waste your high Con (HP sake and number of con saves you may have to make).

Elemental Adept is a meh feat, I understand why people pick it up, but it really can be forgotten and replaced with an ASI or another feat (mobile). A boost in Cha is worth more to this character than Elemental Adept.

The only feat I really see this needing would be Warcaster to be effective. If you go up against fire creatures then just cast other spells. You have enough slots and other spells that you don't need to be a one trick pony.

And really if you are going Paladin and you already have Dueling style (fighter) you really should pick up protection style to really show the Paladin side of you. Protection style would be, at the very least, hilarious on a character meant for "burn it all with fire".

Oh, the name of this character should be Scorpio.

[Naanomi]

If I went only 13 strength that would bump my Dex to... 11? Unless I drop Con more, the final AC is then 15 instead of 21. Low initiative is unfortunate but I will be getting Charisma to saves to more than balance out the -1.

And it would cost me a marginal damage boost on a character all about marginal damage boosts. Bumping up the 1s of 3/6d8+ upwards of 3/4 times a round can make a difference

[R.Shackleford]

If I went only 13 strength that would bump my Dex to... 11? Unless I drop Con more, the final AC is then 15 instead of 21. Low initiative is unfortunate but I will be getting Charisma to saves to more than balance out the -1.

And it would cost me a marginal damage boost on a character all about marginal damage boosts. Bumping up the 1s of 3/6d8+ upwards of 3/4 times a round can make a difference

Where are you getting a final AC of 15?

Even with a drop of str you can still go the heavy armor route if you want. The only penalty from not having enough strength is that your speed is reduced by 10'. Which is made back from mobile (Elemental Adept is a bad feat, I would switch that one).

Starting ability scores would be something like

Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 14 (which is fine for a primarily d8, d10 HD)
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

This allows you to still be in armor (capacity equals 12 x 15 = 180 lbs (71 lbs for armor and shield) and picking up mobile gives you the free disengage against all creatures you attack.

You have a shield so even without armor Your AC is 18 and speed is 40. With Armor (say full plate since we are doing a 20 level build) your AC is 18 + 2 (shield) = 20 With a speed of 30. Plus you should have the shield spell, always have the shield spell ready for +5 AC (sorcerer levels, for when you really really don't want to be hit).

You can still pick up the defensive style for +1 armor ac, but I don't think it is worth it.

Drop the armor and you still have AC and you can sneak if need be. Going Dex based makes you more flexible than going strength based.

Plus failing Dex saves = HP damage. At least with this you have some chance of passing a dex save.

[Naanomi]

I need 13 Strength to multiclass

And my Dex save would still be +4 which isn't terrible

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Not one of currently discussed options, but to suit the theme:
-The Fire Genasi race exists
-Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights can get GFB easily and operate very well in melee

[R.Shackleford]

I need 13 Strength to multiclass

And my Dex save would still be +4 which isn't terrible

Yeah you put a ASI in +1 or +2 strength (you will get 4 ASI with this much MC). You can do this with a half feat or pop +1 Str/+1Wis (later take Resilient Wis because that is something everyone needs.). You only need strength when you go into Paladin. Fighters can multiclass with Dex as their ability score.

Before dex > str, your dex save starting out was -1. Fighter gains Str and Con saves. Unless I missed where you took resilient Dex (which then would top out at 5 under your old dex)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, for GFB I'd go as heavy into Rogue as possible. You're only swinging once, so you want maximum single-hit damage. To be, that screams "sneak attack."

For a heavy fire melee, I'd go Dragonborn Paladin and rock out with Searing Smite and Elemental Weapon.

[Naanomi]

Elemental Weapon.
Fantastic point that I totally forgot to incorporate, thanks!

And the Dex saves get boosted by my Paladin Aura from -1 to +4 (and Con goes up to +14). I'm not saying I don't recognize the value of Dex, just that I don't feel I have the stat or ASI free to put 13 in Str and invest in Dex enough to be comparable in the AC department (and this is, after all, a melee frontliner)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Honestly, for GFB I'd go as heavy into Rogue as possible. You're only swinging once, so you want maximum single-hit damage. To be, that screams "sneak attack."

For a heavy fire melee, I'd go Dragonborn Paladin and rock out with Searing Smite and Elemental Weapon.

I was thinking Fiend Warlock 4/Swashbuckler or Mastermind Rogue 16

Get your sneak attack on without help from allies plus get some temp HP every time you kill. Plus since Mastermind and Swashbuckler came out I've felt that they synergize well with Warlock when it comes to fluff/roleplaying.

[Fighting_Ferret]

One question... how do you plan on getting proficiency in heavy armor?

[RickAllison]

One question... how do you plan on getting proficiency in heavy armor?

Presumably by starting in Paladin.

[Fighting_Ferret]

That would work, but it was mentioned they would need 13 STR to multi-class to paladin...

[Naanomi]

Presumably by starting in Paladin.
Of fighter if I feel Con saves are important enough


That would work, but it was mentioned they would need 13 STR to multi-class to paladin...
In 5e you need stats to multi into OR out of a class

Rules Ponderings: is sorcerer/undying fire boost work on Elemental Weapon, or the ongoing burn damage of Searing Smite?

[Fighting_Ferret]

You learn something new everyday...

[R.Shackleford]

The reason Fighter is the ultimate dip class is that it gives you the greatly loved Con saves, prof in all armor/shields/weapons, and is easier to MC out of as Dex is such an important stat.

That being said... Multiclassing is a optional, DM dependent, rule. So you may be able to get the DM to waive ability score prerequisites for multiclassing out of (but probably not into) a class.

I had a player who's background was that he was force to become a wizard (level 2 in wizard, had 10 Int) and was forced to become a diviner by his family. He was able to run away and become a Bard (16 Cha) and tricks his family into thinking he is still a wizard (charlatan background). I allowed him to multiclass out of wizard even though his Int was 10.