Need PrC for half-orc Fighter (or general guidance)

[Valcor]

Hi! My first post here:)

Having a lot of fun playing with friends now that we're older - but it's been 13yrs and I'm realizing that don't have as much time for reading as my compatriots whose characters are fancy. I have lurked here for a month, while reading OOTS, and have learned that Fighter isn't something you take to lv 20, that PrC's are pretty common, and that I'd never used the term 'character build.'

I'd love to just ask for some ideas and tap your collective knowledge so I don't have to make it on my own. I know the game alrightish, but not the vast content that has compiled! I just need to figure out what I'm going to do so I can learn about THAT. (I get overwhelmed by options, :smalleek:)

What PrC's (or directions/builds) would make sense for a half-orc fighter who:
-was raised military (nice, upstanding human family)
-was mentored by an orc shaman/priest (my character has spiritual side)
-longs for "good trouble", chances to do feats,
-and has a soft heart for protecting those who need it

I use a spiked shield and a greatsword (via monkey grip. Coolest thing I'd ever heard of, now I read it's a bad trade-off. doh! oh well, still cool to me). We've played once, but I we're coming into level 6.
str 20
dex 16
con 14
int 10
wis 7
cha 7

feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Cleave, Monkey Grip


as a bonus, I'd LOVE to hear clever ways to spend money on tricks that make me more useful. (like a wand of enlarge person...?)
We have a wizard/loremaster and paladin/favored soul and are gaining a rouge.

thanks a lot guys - I really appreciate any help and look forward to learning!:smallredface:

[Grim Reader]

What do you enjoy most about playing a fighter/this character ? Its an important consideration for which way to take the character.

[Inevitability]

A wand of enlarge person won't be too useful, as it requires you to put cross-class skill ranks in UMD and takes a standard action to activate.

Instead, ask your DM if you can have a ring of permanent enlarge person. The item guidelines put the price at about 2000 GP. If that is considered too low, Lords of Madness has a ring that grants a permanent reduce person effect (not restricted to a single creature type) for 10000 GP: a similar item of enlarge person should be available at the same price.

[mabriss lethe]

Since you've only done one session, you could see if your DM would let you retroactively retrain your fighter levels using Dungeoncrasher ACF and Zhentarim fighter substitution levels. Get some nasty bullrushing perks and and some solid demoralization mechanics without leaving the Fighter class. If it's allowed, you'd lose out on your 2nd and 6th level fighter feats so you'd need to take that into account, but it's worth it.

[Telonius]

Could you give us an idea what some of the other characters are doing? Sorts of spells the Wizard and Cleric are casting, stuff like that. You've probably noticed that people around here can scale up the power anywhere from "Effective Fighter" to "tentacled universe-eating monstrosity," so it's good to have a ballpark. If the Wizard is chucking Fireballs and Magic Missiles all day, we'll have a better idea of what to suggest.

Also, what sources are available? Just PHB/DMG, or are you open to things like Tome of Battle, the Complete X series, Dragon Magazine materials..?

[Valcor]

Wow, thanks so much for all the replies guys! (and gals?) that's very helpful already.


What do you enjoy most about playing a fighter/this character ? Its an important consideration for which way to take the character.

The half-orc is different from my natural bent, but the way I play him is tactically smart but awkward and a bit foolish, kind to friends, happily risk-taking.
I like to deal lots of damage, and I like being able to take the front between the enemy and my friends. I do enjoy being a decisive piece of the victory, not very happy with highly 'support role' characters.
That said, I've not played into double digit levels much, so I'm wanting to learn some more nuance and skill - anticipating that running in slashing won't work on harder cr's. (or is that what casters are for? I guess I'm grasping at the straws of how to play 'right'...)


A wand of enlarge person won't be too useful, as it requires you to put cross-class skill ranks in UMD and takes a standard action to activate.

Instead, ask your DM if you can have a ring of permanent enlarge person. The item guidelines put the price at about 2000 GP. If that is considered too low, Lords of Madness has a ring that grants a permanent reduce person effect (not restricted to a single creature type) for 10000 GP: a similar item of enlarge person should be available at the same price.

Super helpful, thanks! Would 'permanent' mean as long as you wear it, or that it can be toggled?
If I may - does it even sound like a good idea? it's all I've thought of so far, but could be fun!


Since you've only done one session, you could see if your DM would let you retroactively retrain your fighter levels using Dungeoncrasher ACF and Zhentarim fighter substitution levels. Get some nasty bullrushing perks and and some solid demoralization mechanics without leaving the Fighter class. If it's allowed, you'd lose out on your 2nd and 6th level fighter feats so you'd need to take that into account, but it's worth it.

I will definitely look into those. I've heard of the Dungeoncrasher. My dm is a reasonable guy with some flexibility, and we're only lv 5 at the moment (turning 6 between sessions), so a possibility. I'll have to look up bullrushing and demoralization mechanics - not sure how people use those. Thanks!


Could you give us an idea what some of the other characters are doing? Sorts of spells the Wizard and Cleric are casting, stuff like that. You've probably noticed that people around here can scale up the power anywhere from "Effective Fighter" to "tentacled universe-eating monstrosity," so it's good to have a ballpark. If the Wizard is chucking Fireballs and Magic Missiles all day, we'll have a better idea of what to suggest.

Also, what sources are available? Just PHB/DMG, or are you open to things like Tome of Battle, the Complete X series, Dragon Magazine materials..?

Haha, ya! Great questions. Wizard is decidedly against being an arcane power ball, works with illusions and clever use of cantrips. Now going into loremaster.
Paladin is focusing on mounted work and ranged attack (dumped his constitution for charisma), all I know about favored soul is his desire to be a healer, we'll see where he takes it - but the whole party tries to be thoughtful and clever, depending on one another. (cool, we grew up!)
So I guess I'm looking for 'effective fighter with a tentacle' ;-)

Dm pretty open to others sources outside core - but wants it run by him, and to have character development match. My character focuses highly on living a high adventure as his legacy - out to prove himself inspite of his dubious lineage and also to feed the orc thirst, and protecting others.

[Inevitability]

Super helpful, thanks! Would 'permanent' mean as long as you wear it, or that it can be toggled?
If I may - does it even sound like a good idea? it's all I've thought of so far, but could be fun!

Being larger is definitely a good thing for (almost) any melee build. You deal more damage while your attack bonus remains the same (strength gain cancelled out by size penalty), you gain a bonus on various checks that may come up (grapple, for one) and your reach increases, causing enemies without reach to provoke opportunity attacks when they approach.

I'm pretty sure you can't switch the ring off, though. If quickly switching between sizes is important for you, you could ask your DM to let you buy a ring of Enlarge Person that also includes a Mage Hand keyed to a command word, allowing you to take the ring off and put it on by speaking a single word. The total cost would be around 7600 GP, compared to 4000 GP for just the enlargement (I said 2000 GP earlier, that was a typo).

[Gildedragon]

Use activated or command word ring or belt.
Lasts one minute per level...takes a standard action to activate but a minute or 10 rounds is enough for a battle

[Troacctid]

The character you've described sounds exactly like a Warblade. Read up on the class in Tome of Battle; I think you'll find it's an excellent match for your character.

As for Enlarge Person, it is a valid target for Permanency. So just ask the Wizard to cast it on you and make it permanent.

[Inevitability]

As for Enlarge Person, it is a valid target for Permanency. So just ask the Wizard to cast it on you and make it permanent.

1. The wizard isn't high enough level yet to cast Permanency, if I'm not mistaken, and a scroll will be expensive and may not activate.
2. If you're paying a NPC to cast Permanency for you, you might as well just buy the Ring of Enlarge Person I mentioned earlier.
3. Permanencied spells can still be dispelled. And no, dispelling the ogre-sized half-orc is not unreasonable.

[Arael666]

Being larger is definitely a good thing for (almost) any melee build. You deal more damage while your attack bonus remains the same (strength gain cancelled out by size penalty), you gain a bonus on various checks that may come up (grapple, for one) and your reach increases, causing enemies without reach to provoke opportunity attacks when they approach.

I'm pretty sure you can't switch the ring off, though. If quickly switching between sizes is important for you, you could ask your DM to let you buy a ring of Enlarge Person that also includes a Mage Hand keyed to a command word, allowing you to take the ring off and put it on by speaking a single word. The total cost would be around 7600 GP, compared to 4000 GP for just the enlargement (I said 2000 GP earlier, that was a typo).

Thats way too cheap for a ring of enlarge person. The ring of reduction costs 20k, essentialy its a ring of reduce person that works on any type, so your ring of enlarge person should have a price close to 20k.

[Troacctid]

1. The wizard isn't high enough level yet to cast Permanency, if I'm not mistaken, and a scroll will be expensive and may not activate.
2. If you're paying a NPC to cast Permanency for you, you might as well just buy the Ring of Enlarge Person I mentioned earlier.
3. Permanencied spells can still be dispelled. And no, dispelling the ogre-sized half-orc is not unreasonable.
It would cost about 3000 gp, give or take.

There is no such thing as a Ring of Enlarge Person in the rules—it's a custom item that doesn't necessarily exist.

[Gildedragon]

Well the extra cost of reduce person ring is in the anyone effect.

A belt or ring of enlarge person (1 minute), command word activated, is 1800gp. Which in all fairness seems pretty good which seven or so times the cost of a potion of the stuff

[fishyfishyfishy]

Monkey Grip does not work the way you seen to think it does. Mobley Grip allows you to wield melee weapons one size category larger than you can normally wield with the standard -2 penalty, but it explicitly does not change the "effort" it takes to hold the weapon. The example it gives is a large Longsword would normally be considered a two handed weapon for a medium creature, but with the feat it is a one handed weapon.

That said, a large Longsword deals the same base damage as a medium Greatsword. Your interpretation of this feat is not unbalancing at all.

I would still highly recommend that you do not use it and ask to trade it for Power Attack. Wield the sword with both hands and for the same -2 to attack you're getting +4 to damage. It's more flexible and grants you a better return on average. You won't miss the shield. If you're determined to sword and board it then I recommend picking up Shield Slam, Shield Charge, and Shield Ward, and seeing if you can replace two weapon fighting with Agile Shield Fighter. All of these feats are found in PHB2 and pair nicely with the Dungeoncrasher variant previously recommended.

[Arael666]

It would cost about 3000 gp, give or take.

There is no such thing as a Ring of Enlarge Person in the rules—it's a custom item that doesn't necessarily exist.

You're just considering the table, the first rule while pricing magic items is:


The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.

[Troacctid]

You're just considering the table, the first rule while pricing magic items is:

Scroll costs have a fixed formula. A scroll of permanency with 500 xp costs (2500 + 62.5 * CL) gp. That's about 3000 gp at minimum CL.

[Valcor]

Hey thanks again everyone - it's very helpful getting a sense of where to go from here. I really appreciate it


The character you've described sounds exactly like a Warblade. Read up on the class in Tome of Battle; I think you'll find it's an excellent match for your character.

As for Enlarge Person, it is a valid target for Permanency. So just ask the Wizard to cast it on you and make it permanent.

I'll definitely look into it - it sounds like 3 PrC's stand out - Dungeoncrusher, Warblade, and ...haha, another one, can't remember.

As for enlarge person, sounds like it's worth pursuing. My group has some house rules for crafting and our wizard specializes in crafting, so I may be able to work a great deal here.


Well the extra cost of reduce person ring is in the anyone effect.

[QUOTE=Dire_Stirge;20737899]Being larger is definitely a good thing for (almost) any melee build. You deal more damage while your attack bonus remains the same (strength gain cancelled out by size penalty), you gain a bonus on various checks that may come up (grapple, for one) and your reach increases, causing enemies without reach to provoke opportunity attacks when they approach.

I'm pretty sure you can't switch the ring off, though. If quickly switching between sizes is important for you, you could ask your DM to let you buy a ring of Enlarge Person that also includes a Mage Hand keyed to a command word, allowing you to take the ring off and put it on by speaking a single word. The total cost would be around 7600 GP, compared to 4000 GP for just the enlargement (I said 2000 GP earlier, that was a typo).

thanks a lot for the explanation. makes good sense, I'll be asking the DM about it.


Monkey Grip does not work the way you seen to think it does. Mobley Grip allows you to wield melee weapons one size category larger than you can normally wield with the standard -2 penalty, but it explicitly does not change the "effort" it takes to hold the weapon. The example it gives is a large Longsword would normally be considered a two handed weapon for a medium creature, but with the feat it is a one handed weapon.

That said, a large Longsword deals the same base damage as a medium Greatsword. Your interpretation of this feat is not unbalancing at all.

I would still highly recommend that you do not use it and ask to trade it for Power Attack. Wield the sword with both hands and for the same -2 to attack you're getting +4 to damage. It's more flexible and grants you a better return on average. You won't miss the shield. If you're determined to sword and board it then I recommend picking up Shield Slam, Shield Charge, and Shield Ward, and seeing if you can replace two weapon fighting with Agile Shield Fighter. All of these feats are found in PHB2 and pair nicely with the Dungeoncrasher variant previously recommended.

really specific help, thanks! I'm afraid I don't quite understand your correction (on my understanding) of the Monkey Grip. What are the implications of 'same effort'?
I may just sword & board (:smalltongue:) it. So that's really helpful - Also just found an article using your suggestion for an optimized shield user that looks pretty awesome...but it it takes some time. Feats are a precious, precious thing...




thanks again everyone! And if anyone has other tips/tricks/ace up sleeve ideas about trinkets that help a fighter get more surprising/dangerous, I'm all ears. I'm trying to stay out of the box (yaya, I'm a half-orc fighter...) with my group...

[Arael666]

Scroll costs have a fixed formula. A scroll of permanency with 500 xp costs (2500 + 62.5 * CL) gp. That's about 3000 gp at minimum CL.

you know I'm talking about custom items and not scrolls.... right?

[MisterKaws]

I'll definitely look into it - it sounds like 3 PrC's stand out - Dungeoncrasher, Warblade, and ...haha, another one, can't remember.

Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim are just Alternate Class Features for the Fighter class. Warblade is another base class: he's suggesting you retrain your Fighter levels into it. I'd personally agree with him, since Warblade is mechanically superior to the Fighter in every aspect, and more fun to play too, with all the combat maneuvers you get, other than "I slash him repeatedly".

About using shields, it's generally frowned upon at optimization as well, since you can get an animated shield for a simple +1 enhancement. In short, unless you literally build your character around being a Captain America cosplay, shield use would be subpar.

Now, on your Monkey grip, just obliterate it. There's an item on the Magic Item Compendium called Strongarm Bracers, and they're just overall better than Monkey grip, and cheap enough that it wouldn't be too hard to convince your DM into handing it to you.

On TWF, it's not the best idea for a STR-focused Half-Orc, even more so one using Power Attack. With your current build at level 5, and considering you are using a heavy shield, your attacks are at +4 for the Greatsword and +6 for the shield: you can't even properly hit a level one cleric, let alone use Power Attack. You need to optimize your penalties, and use feats that mesh well with each other. Power Attack and TWF won't go along well, and should never be used on the same build unless you're challenging yourself on purpose.

[Gildedragon]

on being a TWF half orc:
There is a PRC in Eberron (Players Guide to) called Revenant Blade that might interest you.
It is focused around elves and a double weapon (the valenar double scimitar).
Orc have a racial double weapon... it'd not be farfetched to tweak the class into an orc double axe theme.

[atemu1234]

on being a TWF half orc:
There is a PRC in Eberron (Players Guide to) called Revenant Blade that might interest you.
It is focused around elves and a double weapon (the valenar double scimitar).
Orc have a racial double weapon... it'd not be farfetched to tweak the class into an orc double axe theme.

Interesting. I'm unfamiliar with this. Is it any good?

[Gildedragon]

Interesting. I'm unfamiliar with this. Is it any good?

It let's you use x1.5 your strength on damage for both sides of the weapon and power attack benefits are doubled...
So yes

[Valcor]

Whew! a lot to chew on. Thank you once again for solid advice- esp. Dire Stirge!
The shield is a big part of my character. One thing I'm realizing is that I think I want to build from that, and that looks to be a challenge. There's always just animating the shield also... But now I'm doing lots of reading about these classes, how people optimize, and getting an idea of what a good character should be able to contribute in the upper levels. I've played many times in the past, but somehow it feels like my first real game!

Tripping looks like a great technique, and bashing + dazing. But, I guess you're right: even people saying how to use a shield, don't really use the sword, just the shield. so, sword and board really doesn't seem so optimal. (ironic, best real-life combo, I'd say)

I'll talk with my dm about feats. Perhaps esp. monkey grip, a -2 to hit for a +1 to dmg. Didn't think of it at the time - using a greatsword in one hand just seemed...intoxicating! I could talk to him about the idea of 'retraining'.


I am leaning mostly toward Warblade - it does seem to fit well. Lots to read there though, a whole new world! I'll be honest, there's a reason I've never been a caster: you read, I'll kill.
And I'll try to have fun with it, and hope I end up hurting the bad guys and not myself! :smallbiggrin: Of course, any other thoughts very welcome.