What if there was a magic item that allowed you to have 2 spells with concentration?

[TuesdayTastic]

Basically the title. A magic item that allows you to cast two spells with concentration and maintain concentration on them both. What kind of combos could you do with this? What rarity would the item be?

This is my first post here, so if I am breaking any rules just point it out and I will fix it.

[Democratus]

Fly, plus anything else.

[Zman]

It would be incredibly powerful and can easily be used to start breaking those assumed power ceilings. In a bounded accuracy system it's a fragile thing when you start altering core rules.


As for combos, just pick any two powerful concentration spells. I mean Haste on the Fighter while the Wizard has Greater Invisibility on himself etc. any of the new potential combos range from fine, to pushing the power boundaries. Concentration is a core mechanic to limit the applicable power a Caster can impose.

[TuesdayTastic]

It would be incredibly powerful and can easily be used to start breaking those assumed power ceilings. In a bounded accuracy system it's a fragile thing when you start altering core rules.


As for combos, just pick any two powerful concentration spells. I mean Haste on the Fighter while the Wizard has Greater Invisibility on himself etc. any of the new potential combos range from fine, to pushing the power boundaries. Concentration is a core mechanic to limit the applicable power a Caster can impose.

Well, I can't think of any really broken spells that bust this limit. And all it takes is one solid hit to the wizard and his concentration is down breaking two spells.

Although this does have potential to be really broken, I can't think of many combinations that would be game breaking. I put up this thread to theorize so thanks for the response. I personally don't think it would be above a rare or very rare rating, but I have been wrong before.

[Zalabim]

There are a couple magic items already that do something similar. The Ring of Spell Storing and the Ioun Stone of Reserve can be used for someone else to cast and concentrate on a spell they couldn't cast otherwise.

[TuesdayTastic]

There are a couple magic items already that do something similar. The Ring of Spell Storing and the Ioun Stone of Reserve can be used for someone else to cast and concentrate on a spell they couldn't cast otherwise.

I looked at those items and it says when the spell comes out of the ring, it casts as if you cast it. Concentration should still apply to that unfortunately.

[Gtdead]

It would just make the Warlock dip all the more powerful. Hello perma advantage.

Also a haste/bless+magic weapon style of buffing is extremely potent.
Not game breaking really, but potent enough to make certain classes (like the Bard), better than they already are.

[Specter]

This happened in a game I played. The Paladin stumbled across it, and it only worked for his spells.

It was like he leveled up. He could cast Haste and Hunter's Mark at the same time, or even Bless and Haste. He became a behemoth in terms of magic. I can't even imagine what would happen if a full caster got ahold of that, and how that would slow the game down with double the concentration saves.

[Dr. Cliché]

Basically the title. A magic item that allows you to cast two spells with concentration and maintain concentration on them both. What kind of combos could you do with this? What rarity would the item be?

I know this isn't what you asked, but I was disappointed that familiars (especially Pact of the Chain ones) couldn't concentrate on a spell for their master. As a DM, I'll probably give this ability to one or two of my villain familiars (amongst other things :smallamused:).

In terms of combos, it depends what you want, really. My first thought though is that it would be useful if you could maintain concentration on a long-term or passive effect (Hex, Hunter's Mark, Bless, Fly), and then use your 2nd concentration for a short-term/offensive spell. This is mainly so that you can balance useful spells with 'fun' ones. e.g. Bless is useful, but it's far from involving on your part. So, it might be nice if you could have it active but also play around with Flaming Sphere or somesuch.

Anyway, with regard to an item that lets you maintain concentration, have you considered making it more specific?

For example, you could have a ring for Druids (and maybe rangers) that gives them a 'free' concentration, but only on an animal-related spell (e.g. Beast Sense, Conjure Animals).
Some other ideas for limitations on free concentration:
- Only spells of a particular school (Ring of Illusion).
- Only spells of a specific element.
- Only spells below a certain level.
- One specific spell (if you want, you could allow the player to change the spell during Attunement or with a Long Rest).

Basically, you can use these limitations to prevent some nasty combos and also to add flavour (especially since the item could have other effects as well).

[Crgaston]

I could see maybe this... The item would let the caster concentrate on one particular spell only, plus one any other spell. You'd have to cast them both from your slots, and loss of concentration would cancel them both. That would let the DM limit the scope of possible combinations. Or even limit both possible spell, so it only worked for one specific combo.

Edit... Ninjaed, and by a much more succinctly explained post!^

[Toadkiller]

Or, just play Pathfinder? Which is a fine activity. 5e is centered around making the field a bit more even for all. To hand wave away one of the key strategies for that makes it a step towards another game.

I'm playing my first real wizard character. Working around concentration is big part of managing my resources. I can buff the barbarian, or banish the demon, or toss down a control spell. I have to figure out which is going to be the best use of my concentration for this particular situation. That's the point though, it's supposed to be challenging.

[RulesJD]

Hold on, let me just drop this no-save Wall of Force that also has a Wall of Fire/Cloudkill/Storm Sphere/Animated Objectsetc in a circle inside of it as your BBEG dies with zero chance of doing squat about it.

[Cybren]

It probably wouldn't break anything. It would make a spellcaster much more powerful, but it does it in a cool/interesting way and it still requires them to cast two spells. Might be worth putting a drawback on like having disadvantage on concentration checks, and possibly to put a spell-level limit on it. Maybe, as someone suggested using familiars to do this, it be an item for a familiar, which makes it a little more vulnerable

[TuesdayTastic]

Hold on, let me just drop this no-save Wall of Force that also has a Wall of Fire/Cloudkill/Storm Sphere/Animated Objectsetc in a circle inside of it as your BBEG dies with zero chance of doing squat about it.

That's actually a pretty scary example. That combo would be very effective.

[Dr. Cliché]

Hold on, let me just drop this no-save Wall of Force that also has a Wall of Fire/Cloudkill/Storm Sphere/Animated Objectsetc in a circle inside of it as your BBEG dies with zero chance of doing squat about it.

Couldn't you do the same thing just by having 2 casters in the party?

[Crgaston]

That's actually a pretty scary example. That combo would be very effective.
It'd be tough to pull off though. You'd have to cast the damage spell first, hope the bbeg stayed inside, and then drop the wall of force next round.

Still, this is why there's have to be serious limitations on which spells the item would affect.

[Demonic Spoon]

It would be incredibly powerful and can easily be used to start breaking those assumed power ceilings. In a bounded accuracy system it's a fragile thing when you start altering core rules.

I would point out that magic items, especially high-rarity ones, already blow bounded accuracy to bits. The assumption is that the DM controls access to magic items and can thus distribute them in a sane way.

I don't actually think that double concentration would be out of line power-wise for a magic item, but it would be very rare or legendary and something that you should think hard about before you hand it to a party member...just like you would think hard before handing out a belt of fire giant strength.


It'd be tough to pull off though. You'd have to cast the damage spell first, hope the bbeg stayed inside, and then drop the wall of force next round.

Still, this is why there's have to be serious limitations on which spells the item would affect.

It's way easier to pull off with two casters than one with double concentration. Two casters can simply have one ready an action to cast their spell after the other.

[NNescio]

Well, I can't think of any really broken spells that bust this limit. And all it takes is one solid hit to the wizard and his concentration is down breaking two spells.

Although this does have potential to be really broken, I can't think of many combinations that would be game breaking. I put up this thread to theorize so thanks for the response. I personally don't think it would be above a rare or very rare rating, but I have been wrong before.

Pick any potent defensive spell that normally prevents the Wizard from casting another concentration-based spell.

Like say, Greater Invisibility and any CC or summon spell. Swap out Greater Invis for Fly if your enemies can't fly and have no reliable ranged option.

Enemy can't find the Wizard. They're screwed.

Or, I dunno, straight up layer two CC spells to screw your enemies over, like a 3.5e Wizard. Web + Fog Cloud comes to mind, as a low level option.


Well, I can't think of any really broken spells that bust this limit. And all it takes is one solid hit to the wizard and his concentration is down breaking two spells..

Focused Conjuration says hello. Other casters tend to like to stack Warcaster + Resillient (Con) instead.

[Democratus]

Hex (disadvantage to Str checks) + Telekinesis

[Dr. Cliché]

Okay, chaps, can you suggest anything that would stop these nasty combos, but still allow the player to concentrate on 2 spells?

[TheRedTemplar]

Basically the title. A magic item that allows you to cast two spells with concentration and maintain concentration on them both.

Two Words: Shield Guardian.

Basically, a robot pal who can store spells of forth level or lower and cast them itself.

While the spells a Shield Guardian can store are limited to 4th level or lower, it actually functions extremely close to the 'mythical item' this thread focuses on, and then some. Despite the slightly-restricted levels, this thing more than makes up for it by taking damage for you (with a huge HP pool to do so), regenerated 10 hit points a round, and getting two attacks with fists the equivalent of mauls. It's also a large creature, so it's not unfeasible for you to ride around on it's back and taunt people, or use it to grapple enemies and help control the battle field. Also, if it's next to you, it can give a small but neat little HP buff.

This (well, the control amulet that lets you use it i guess) is one of the best magic items I've seen, and it's also an official one. And it's in at least three of the hardcover modules (Princes, Out of the Abyss, Curse of Strahd), in one of which it's literally given to you over a chess game, and you'll get it regardless of whether you win or lose. Also, it regenerates massive amounts of damage in literal seconds, so don't worry too much about healing it unless it starts to die in battle.

I have one of these bad boys for a character of mine (Paladorc) and it works wonders in boosting power. I cast Elemental Weapon as a seventh level spell, it casts Haste (on me), and then everything around me dies. Fast. (Quickened GFB/BB+Three Attacks is the basic combo, and I can still do a lot with that, not to mention pump smites into the +3 (+3d4) Longsword I'm using. I dealt a little over 200 damage to ORCUS using this set up, with as much smite dice poured in of course.)

So uh, yeah. If you want to do any of the stuff you can find in this thread, just get a Shield Guardian. It requires Attunement, sure, but by god is it worth the slot.

[EDIT: Might be worth mentioning to point out, the Shield Guardian is (obviously) the one concentrating on whatever spell it casts. Whether that's better or worse may very, but I think it's typically a good thing.)

[RulesJD]

It'd be tough to pull off though. You'd have to cast the damage spell first, hope the bbeg stayed inside, and then drop the wall of force next round.

Still, this is why there's have to be serious limitations on which spells the item would affect.

Not really, especially if your Evocation. Just drop it on top of the BBEG in melee, or because you can concentrate on two spells at once just have Greater Invisibility running when you drop the damage spell. Guaranteed surprise round, next turn drop the Wall of Force.

Or drop the Wall of Force first as a half-dome floating 1/2 inch off the ground. BBEG can't get out without some sort of teleportation (which you can likely Counterspell). Next round just use the gap to toss in your Wall of Fire/Cloudkill/etc.

Or just cast Animate Objects and use them, because they can move before you drop the Wall of Force.

Or take two levels of Fighter and Action Surge.

Being able to concentrate on two spells at once would make Wizards effectively invulnerable past a certain level and more game breaking than they already are significantly earlier.

[TuesdayTastic]

Two Words: Shield Guardian.

While the spells a Shield Guardian can store are limited to 4th level or lower, it actually functions extremely close to the 'mythical item' this thread focuses on, and then some. Despite the slightly-restricted levels, this thing more than makes up for it by taking damage for you (with a huge HP pool to do so), regenerated 10 hit points a round, and getting two attacks with fists the equivalent of mauls. It's also a large creature, so it's not unfeasible for you to ride around on it's back and taunt people, or use it to grapple enemies and help control the battle field. Also, if it's next to you, it can give a small but neat little HP buff.

This (well, the control amulet that lets you use it i guess) is one of the best magic items I've seen, and it's also an official one. And it's in at least three of the hardcover modules (Princes, Out of the Abyss, Curse of Strahd), in one of which it's literally given to you over a chess game, and you'll get it regardless of whether you win or lose. Also, it regenerates massive amounts of damage in literal seconds, so don't worry too much about healing it unless it starts to die in battle.

I have one of these bad boys for a character of mine (Paladorc) and it works wonders in boosting power. I cast Elemental Weapon as a seventh level spell, it casts Haste (on me), and then everything around me dies. Fast. (Quickened GFB/BB+Three Attacks is the basic combo, and I can still do a lot with that, not to mention pump smites into the +3 (+3d4) Longsword I'm using. I dealt a little over 200 damage to ORCUS using this set up, with as much smite dice poured in of course.)

So uh, yeah. If you want to do any of the stuff you can find in this thread, just get a Shield Guardian. It requires Attunement, sure, but by god is it worth the slot.

[EDIT: Might be worth mentioning to point out, the Shield Guardian is (obviously) the one concentrating on whatever spell it casts. Whether that's better or worse may very, but I think it's typically a good thing.)

Huh, I had no idea about that. I don't run the official modules, but one of my friends does. I'll have to ask him about the shield guardian they get later on. What class were you playing if you got smites, 7th level spell slots, and haste?

[TheRedTemplar]

Being able to concentrate on two spells at once would make Wizards effectively invulnerable past a certain level and more game breaking than they already are significantly earlier.

Hell hath no fury like a Wizard with a Shield Guardian.

[NNescio]

Okay, chaps, can you suggest anything that would stop these nasty combos, but still allow the player to concentrate on 2 spells?

I'll say let the player get to use those nasty combos, but only once per day.

The Technomage archetype from the UA Modern Magic supplement has this (double concentration, once per day) built-in as his subclass 'capstone' class feature.

Alternatively, if you don't want to limit the number of uses, force concentration checks (ignoring class features like Focused Conjuration) at a high DC every round to maintain both spells. Possibly the DC scales according to the combined spell levels of both spells.


Hell hath no fury like a Wizard with a Shield Guardian.

Or a Simulacrum.


Huh, I had no idea about that. I don't run the official modules, but one of my friends does. I'll have to ask him about the shield guardian they get later on. What class were you playing if you got smites, 7th level spell slots, and haste?

Sorcadin.

[TheRedTemplar]

What class were you playing if you got smites, 7th level spell slots, and haste?

Paladorc is a shortened version of "Paladin-Sorcerer". i.e., I'm a Multiclass (I based it on a now-long-dead Minecraft Server's class that I'd adored and played a lot, as a sort of 'in memoriam' to it.)

As for the Shield Guardian's rules, if you manage to get the amulet it's pretty simple: attune to it and you can control the guardian, basically getting it's stat block as a portable ally. Simple yet Deadly. Depending on the module you're playing though, it's either handed to you over chess or you have to go out of your way to find it. Either way, the amulet is worth it.

[kaoskonfety]

Well it makes sorcerer look better.
I pick twinned basically anything and twinned basically anything...

a party of 4 all hasted or the 2 toughs hasted/polymorphed/whatever and the caster and rouge greater invisible-d... then laughing I'm not going hunting for broken combos on this - the sheer hilarity might have me dropping it on my current group of REALLY not optimized PC's to see what they DO with it...

More seriously, if I was more generally interested, I'd probably insert it into general play as an expendable - single use, potion or similar and see what happens.

Edit - on an expendable item (Very Rare or Legendary would be my suggestion BTW) maybe some FEL and TERRIBLE drawback, addiction, withdraw, ages the user drastically, the Wish exhaustion mechanic to drag the rarity down (make it REALLY bad and make them common... and now we have wizards junkies... YES!)

[tieren]

Okay, chaps, can you suggest anything that would stop these nasty combos, but still allow the player to concentrate on 2 spells?

I would add a requirement that the slot of the second spell has to be no more than 1/2 the level of the slot of the first spell (so you could burn a 4th and 2nd level or 6th and 3rd level, but not two 3rd levels or two 6th levels). Call it a limitation caused by the increased strain.

[eastmabl]

Such a magic item breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game. Don't - just don't.

[Demonic Spoon]

Such a magic item breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game. Don't - just don't.


So do lots of magic items. Why is this one different?

[JakOfAllTirades]

Such a magic item breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game. Don't - just don't.

So does the Belt of Storm Giant Strength. "No Ability Scores over 20" is a fundamental rule, but there are a number of items which break it. (And a class feature, too.)

[Dr. Cliché]

Such a magic item breaks one of the fundamental rules of the game. Don't - just don't.

I'd hardly call concentration a fundamental rule. It's a slapdash attempt at balancing buffs, but one which makes naff-all sense and goes way too far.

[Demonic Spoon]

I'd hardly call concentration a fundamental rule. It's a slapdash attempt at balancing buffs, but one which makes naff-all sense and goes way too far.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's anything less than a fundamental rule of spellcasting.

[Dr. Cliché]

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's anything less than a fundamental rule of spellcasting.

You're right. The fact that it's not a fundamental rule is what makes it less of a fundamental rule.

[TheRedTemplar]

I'd hardly call concentration a fundamental rule. It's a slapdash attempt at balancing buffs, but one which makes naff-all sense and goes way too far.

Look, just because they threw a little wrench in all your CoDzilla plans doesn't mean you need to sulk in your robe and wizard hat. Concentration keeps people from breaking the game by buff-stacking, and I don't see why getting an item to slightly go below that (like a Shield Guardian) is too big of an issue. However, complaining that Concentration is a problem and shouldn't exist only makes you come off as a whiny little warlock who was mad that the Martial Classes actually get a chance to do something this edition. Seriously, man up. It's not the best balancing mechanic, but it's a balancing mechanic, and it's here to stay. I don't really think anyone aside from muchkins complain about this.

[Dr. Cliché]

Look, just because they threw a little wrench in all your CoDzilla plans doesn't mean you need to sulk in your robe and wizard hat. Concentration keeps people from breaking the game by buff-stacking, and I don't see why getting an item to slightly go below that (like a Shield Guardian) is too big of an issue. However, complaining that Concentration is a problem and shouldn't exist only makes you come off as a whiny little warlock who was mad that the Martial Classes actually get a chance to do something this edition. Seriously, man up. It's not the best balancing mechanic, but it's a balancing mechanic, and it's here to stay. I don't really think anyone aside from muchkins complain about this.

If you project just a little harder we could use you to show a powerpoint presentation on baseless arguments.

Want to make that final push? I think I've got a spare cable around here somewhere.

[Theodoxus]

Our table uses Proficiency minus 1 for the number of concentration effects you can maintain. Honestly, we haven't run into any abuse - it's mostly for when you forget that your Hold Person would have just nuked your Hex... I also maintain that you should run the game you can control. If you can't handle a Haste/Cloudkill/Bless combination, don't allow for it.

I definitely need to check the Shield Guardian though... I have a player in dire need of a legendary item, and that as the chassis will certainly fit the bill.

[RulesJD]

Shield Guardians are acceptable as a magical item because they are very much destructible.

This is hugely important in something like Adventurer's League because it counts against your permanent magic item count but can be destroyed, so it's a calculated risk.

[TheRedTemplar]

If you project just a little harder we could use you to show a powerpoint presentation on baseless arguments.

Want to make that final push? I think I've got a spare cable around here somewhere.

Sure, let me just get up all the baseless arguments you made: I think it gives us more than enough to fill out a slide show all on it's own.

[Dr. Cliché]

Sure, let me just get up all the baseless arguments you made: I think it gives us more than enough to fill out a slide show all on it's own.

Sorry. I'll try to remember in future that the actual definition of words is irrelevant.


EDIT: I am curious though - why do you think Concentration is a fundamental rule?

[Telwar]

I suspect we'll see one, in an official product, within 18 months or so.

I don't really think they can hold themselves to trying to keep what balance they've achieved. At some point their raging..."affection" we'll call it for full casters will rear its head, and we'll have something like a necklace with a big red ruby in it that "holds your concentration for you on self-only spells" or some such, and they'll weakly justify it by placing it in some GoT-themed article. Or some other way.

[TheRedTemplar]

I believe Concentration is not only a Fundamental Rule, it was something that was needed. It prevents straight casters from dominating the game by limiting the combinations they can pull off, and makes the ones they can seem even greater because the player is now much more invested in trying to find interesting ways to use their spells that aren't just 'stack as many buffs on myself until I can't die' or similar.

I think this also sets a baseline for an interesting difficulty: it makes the game more challenging and interesting, and thus more engaging, at least to me. I like things that make me think and provide a suitably difficult-yet-rewarding experience, and having to decide which spell to concentrate on and when to concentrate on it helps provide that. It's honestly part of the reason why I love 5e so much. Additionally, this is one of the things that enemies can't get around either, causing the foes you fight to also do the same thing. Even better, since no one can stack those concentration slots (and it can be disrupted), you can prematurely end an enemies spell by breaking their concentration, which can weaken or cripple them if they were relying on it. Players also have to be careful, since they can also have their concentration be broken as well, which helps add to the 'strategic' bit by making the Tank's job more important and making players be more cautious, since losing that concentration spell at the wrong time can be deadly.

All in all, I think this mechanic is one of my favorite additions to the game, and one of the reasons I like 5e more than older editions. So ultimately, yeah, I'd say something so influential as this would be a Fundamental Rule of the game, and a good one to!

[Dr. Cliché]

Sorry, but you haven't actually said why Concentration is a fundamental rule. You just said that it was and then went off on a tangent.

Are you sure 'fundamental' means what you think it does?

[. Shadowblade .]

yes, warlock in our party asked for such item as last quest reward - she was using it to levitate (to be out of reach of enemies) and keeping active the Hunger of Hadar spell at choking point at the same time

[Dr. Cliché]

yes, warlock in our party asked for such item as last quest reward - she was using it to levitate (to be out of reach of enemies) and keeping active the Hunger of Hadar spell at choking point at the same time

Goodbye spell slots. :smallwink:

[Rysto]

Sorry, but you haven't actually said why Concentration is a fundamental rule. You just said that it was and then went off on a tangent.

Are you sure 'fundamental' means what you think it does?

Are you sure you read his post? It's a fundamental part of the balance of the game. Loosening the restriction gives more power to casters and devalues martials further.

[Socratov]

Why concentration is needed and why a double item should never be worn by druids.

Look at the druid spells. lots of them are concentration. Also lots of them have an area of effect, might use a bonus action or action to adjust to the Druid's advantage (and indeed the party's advantage). having one fo them might be encounter ending, having two of them is disasterous as of now the druid van do twice as much about it.

What's more, get resillience (CON) and a high con/form to wildshape to and those will stay in effect as long as the spell could. Might be spiked growth and a moon beam, maybe two moonbeams, maybe some other aoe enemies-get-royally-fornicated spellset.

Also, for sorcerer the twin spell is funny with two concentrations. 4 times fly is funny but not good enough, however, how about dual haste on the fighters/barbs? Now instead of 2 murder-death-machines you can now have 4 murder-death-machines. Then there is the dual walls of force/fire/wind, and many other useful spells. But all the concentration spells with 1 target will lead to 4 castings running of that very spell. That, or 2 characters running around with dual buffs.

[kaoskonfety]

That, or 2 characters running around with dual buffs.

I totally forgot about the 2 hasted, improved invisible frontliners with sentinel and say... polearm master... NOM NOM NOM

Good times.

Still... I'd try it as a very rare/legendary expendable or an artifact that has some very serious drawbacks/is actually a lich feeding on your spells to get at your soul...

[Dr. Cliché]

Are you sure you read his post? It's a fundamental part of the balance of the game. Loosening the restriction gives more power to casters and devalues martials further.

That's not what a fundamental rule is.

A fundamental rule is the core of the system - typically what the rest of the system is built around. If you want an idea of whether or not something is fundamental, consider how easy or hard it would be to remove it.

For example, Class is a fundamental rule in D&D. If you removed Class, you'd be left with a load of abilities floating in the aether. Likewise, Ability Scores are a fundamental rule. They are needed to resolve attacks, AC, spells, save DCs, saves, skills etc.

In terms of the magic system, D&D still uses a Vancian Magic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VancianMagic) system. The key points are:

1)Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance.

2) Spells represent a kind of "magic-bomb" which must be prepared in advance of actual use, and each prepared spell can be used only once before needing to be prepared again. That's why it is also known as "Fire & Forget magic."

3) Magicians have a finite capacity of prepared spells which is the de facto measure of their skill and/or power as magicians. A wizard using magic for combat is thus something like a living gun: he must be "loaded" with spells beforehand and can run out of magical "ammunition".

Notice the lack of anything even remotely related to Concentration there?

Here's the key point - Concentration would be an exceptionally easy mechanic to remove. It already reads like an optional rule that was made non-optional at the last minute. Every concentration spell has a maximum duration, so you could literally just remove/ignore "Concentration up to..." from all of them and they'd function just fine. Likewise, there are few (if any) abilities or effects that interact with Concentration in any way. I can think of maybe one feat that would get a bit worse for its removal. That's it. Mechanically, spellcasting would function just fine without Concentration.

That brings us, of course, to balance. Whilst the mechanics of the game might function fine, spellcasters would almost certainly be too strong in terms of actual gameplay. However, this is missing the key point - Concentration, as a balancing mechanic, can be replaced. The fact that you've removed a balancing mechanic doesn't prevent you from adding a different one (e.g. a direct limit on buff-stacking). And, more importantly, it can be replaced without changing the feel of the system (as above, the key points of Vancian Magic remain unchanged with or without Concentration).

Maybe the new balancing mechanic would be better, maybe it would be worse. The point is that you have that option. Since Concentration isn't a fundamental mechanic, you can swap it out for a different one with minimal mechanical problems and whilst leaving the actual fundamental rules of the system intact.

[Rysto]

Wow, really? Alright, if we're going to start arguing over the precise definition of words here, I'm out. Discussions like these are never productive.

[Dr. Cliché]

Wow, really? Alright, if we're going to start arguing over the precise definition of words here, I'm out. Discussions like these are never productive.

I'm not arguing the definition of fundamental, I'm just telling you what the definition is.

If you want to argue that definition, take it up with the dictionary.

[TheRedTemplar]

I'm not arguing the definition of fundamental, I'm just telling you what the definition is.

If you want to argue that definition, take it up with the dictionary.

fun·da·men·tal:

"forming a necessary base or core; of central importance."

"a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A fundamental rule is not strictly the 'core' of a system: it is a baseline. It's a part of a system that other parts can be based around, which may then be used as fundamental parts for others, like a chain. There are many fundamental rules that go into the makings of a game; creature types, races, ability scores and classes are some notable D&D ones.

If your definition of fundamental is 'not easy to remove', well, you're wrong. Easy to remove doesn't mean it isn't fundamental: for example, you could easily remove the concept of creature types or races from the game with little to no drawback and easily fill in the blanks when need be: likewise ability scores and classes are extremely difficult to remove as a mechanic properly because much of the game is based around them, and it just wouldn't be D&D anymore. Despite this, all four of the above examples are still fundamental rules because they act as a starting point for other parts of the game, regardless of how easy or hard they are to remove.

Which brings us to poor concentration (bless their heart). Concentration is also a fundamental rule: it provides a baseline, and many classes depend on it (for example, the Trickster Cleric's Duplicity Power and the Dragon Sorcerer's Draconic Presence, not to mention the myriad of concentration spells). Without it, player tactics and some class abilities would be totally changed, spellcasters would be played differently, and some other things I don't feel like listing because it'd be too long. It is a core part of the system.

Does that mean it can be removed and replaced? Of course. Like you said just scribble out the word concentration when you see it and add something else, or nothing at all. Does that means it's a good idea? YMMV on that. But just because something can be removed and replaced with varying difficulty, it doesn't mean that it's not a fundamental rule if it isn't difficult to do so (Want proof? Look no further than D&D Next/D&D 6th Edition, which is an example of removing the fundamental rules of races and classes: Now you just have a 'mixture' where all choices and abilities are almost totally predetermined if you even get a choice at all, essentially replacing them both by fusing them together).

And given your childish demeanor, you're likely either ignoring this response entirely and continuing in ignorance or you're thinking: "TL;DR but it has nothing to do with Vancian Magic, so it's not fundamental". Well my friendless friend, that's because both of them are fundamental rules. They both act as baselines that totally determine how spellcasting and certain mechanics in the game work, and both also help create a guide for spells and how they work. They're arguably both part of each other, actually: Concentration is simply part of the Vancian magic rules in 5e, making it a Fundamental Rule using another Fundamental Rule as a starting point.

Again, if you think concentration isn't a fundamental rule because it's easy to remove, I'd like to point out the above Vancian system of magic is also a fundamental rule and is just as easy to replace, such as removing the majority of the spellcasting rules and switching them with something like AD&D's.

And if you still think I'm 100% wrong and don't even have a single good point, then either replace your dictionary or go back to kindergarten, because you have some serious learning to catch up on.

[NNescio]

Guys, as much as I disagree with Dr. Cliché on this issue, I think we should try to keep the discussion civil here.

Back on topic, I agree that concentration is a fundamental balancing mechanic in this game, for the reasons outlined by TheRedTemplar in his post above me. Bypassing the concentration mechanic dramatically changes the potential and playstyle of most casters (even partial casters like EKs), and enables a combinatorial explosion of spell interactions that are not intended by the designers. These combinations are also hard to foresee and balance for the DM (unlike, say, breaking the usual 20/30 stat limit, which can be compensated easily just by adjusting numbers).

[Dr. Cliché]

fun·da·men·tal:

"forming a necessary base or core; of central importance."

"a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A fundamental rule is not strictly the 'core' of a system: it is a baseline..

Are you serious?

You quoted the definition of 'fundamental', and your very next sentence is you ignoring that definition.

'Baseline' is not the definition of 'fundamental'. It's not even a synonym of 'fundamental'.



If your definition of fundamental is 'not easy to remove', well, you're wrong. Easy to remove doesn't mean it isn't fundamental: for example, you could easily remove the concept of creature types or races from the game with little to no drawback and easily fill in the blanks when need be

Races, yes, creature types, no. Races affect relatively little, but there are a lot of spells and such based on creature type (though, they'd certainly be easier to remove than in 3.5).

You can argue that these are fundamental to the fluff, but mechanically races really aren't important and could be removed with little hassle. Creature types would be a bit more of a pain (since there are spells that key off undead, elementals, demons etc.), but even those aren't fundamental rules anymore. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd consider creature type a 'rule'. It's more akin to a tag - something that has no use in and of itself (fluff not withstanding), but which can be used by actual rules.

It's the same with spell types. 'Evocation' doesn't change the nature of a spell, but other abilities key off Evocation spells.


Despite this, all four of the above examples are still fundamental rules because they act as a starting point for other parts of the game, regardless of how easy or hard they are to remove.

Why did you even bother posting that definition of 'fundamental'? You clearly didn't read it.

A fundamental rule is much more than just a 'starting point'. Hence why 'starting point' wasn't among the definitions. And, once again, it's not even a synonym.



Which brings us to poor concentration (bless their heart). Concentration is also a fundamental rule: it provides a baseline, and many classes depend on it (for example, the Trickster Cleric's Duplicity Power and the Dragon Sorcerer's Draconic Presence, not to mention the myriad of concentration spells).

See my previous post. Those two abilities, along with every concentration spell, already have maximum durations. Hell, in Duplicity, Concentration is practically a footnote.

Also, once again, 'fundamental' =/= 'baseline'.



Which brings us to poor concentration (bless their heart). Concentration is also a fundamental rule: it provides a baseline, and many classes depend on it (for example, the Trickster Cleric's Duplicity Power and the Dragon Sorcerer's Draconic Presence, not to mention the myriad of concentration spells). Without it, player tactics and some class abilities would be totally changed, spellcasters would be played differently, and some other things I don't feel like listing because it'd be too long. It is a core part of the system.

Casters being played differently with different tactics is completely irrelevant (not to mention subjective).

None of what you've said makes Concentration a fundamental rule. I'm not even sure it makes it a baseline rule. Nothing adds to it, uses it creatively or builds on it in any way. It's used on a of spells... and that's about it.



Does that mean it can be removed and replaced? Of course. Like you said just scribble out the word concentration when you see it and add something else, or nothing at all. Does that means it's a good idea? YMMV on that. But just because something can be removed and replaced with varying difficulty, it doesn't mean that it's not a fundamental rule if it isn't difficult to do so

Yes, it really does.

Fundamental rules are the primary ones. The most important rules. The core of their systems. If you can remove a rule that easily, then clearly and still have a perfectly functional system then that rule clearly isn't a fundamental one. Q.E.D.


(Want proof? Look no further than D&D Next/D&D 6th Edition, which is an example of removing the fundamental rules of races and classes: Now you just have a 'mixture' where all choices and abilities are almost totally predetermined if you even get a choice at all, essentially replacing them both by fusing them together).

What's your point here, exactly? That other D&D systems have different fundamental rules?



And given your childish demeanor

"What's that, Teapot? I'm black, you say?"


you're likely either ignoring this response entirely and continuing in ignorance or you're thinking:

You really can't accuse me of ignorance when you quote the definition of 'fundamental' and then proceed to immediately ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.


"TL;DR but it has nothing to do with Vancian Magic, so it's not fundamental".


No, but thank you for putting words in my mouth.


Well my friendless friend

"I hate to break it to you, Teapot, but your colour is also rather dark."


They both act as baselines that totally determine how spellcasting and certain mechanics in the game work, and both also help create a guide for spells and how they work.

Again, you are misunderstanding what 'fundamental' means. I'm not even sure how you can consider concentration a 'baseline'. Nothing builds on it. In contrast, it is built on the rules for spells, ability scores etc. The rules that are actually fundamental.


They're arguably both part of each other, actually: Concentration is simply part of the Vancian magic rules in 5e, making it a Fundamental Rule using another Fundamental Rule as a starting point.

I see you've moved on to that grand tradition of non-arguments - saying whatever you like and pretending that it's factual.

Newsflash - you can't just take any rule you want and declare that it's 'fundamental'. Especially when said rule is demonstrably not. Likewise, you can't just claim something is part of 'Vancian Magic' just because it's in this edition of D&D. Like it or not, Concentration has nothing whatsoever to do with Vancian Magic.



Again, if you think concentration isn't a fundamental rule because it's easy to remove, I'd like to point out the above Vancian system of magic is also a fundamental rule and is just as easy to replace, such as removing the majority of the spellcasting rules and switching them with something like AD&D's.

So, to prove Vancian Magic is easy to remove, you're proposing that we replace it... with Vancian Magic. :smallconfused:



And if you still think I'm 100% wrong and don't even have a single good point, then either replace your dictionary or go back to kindergarten, because you have some serious learning to catch up on.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Shall we go through the list of idiocies in this one post?
1) You bothered to quote the dictionary definition of 'fundamental', then proceeded to ignore that and define it as something completely different. Already your entire argument is invalid, but your stupidity doesn't end there.
2) You continued the trend by pointing out that a non-fundamental rule is easy to remove... as if that somehow supported your argument, instead of mine.
3) You then decided to pick a different definition of 'fundamental'.
4) Back to the first incorrect definition.
5) You proceeded to claim a load of irrelevant nonsense about tactics changing.
6) You showed *again* that you have no clue what fundamental means.
7) You then called my childish, whilst proceeding to spout a stream of ad hominem drivel, followed by condescension and insults.
8) You proved that you have no clue what 'Vancian Magic' is (despite me providing a link in my previous post).
9) You then clarified that 8 wasn't a mistake and you genuinely have no clue what Vancian Magic entails.
10) You told me to replace my dictionary . . . after you yourself repeatedly failed to grasp the meaning of 'fundamental'.

If even one of your three brain cells is still firing at this point, you'll gather up what little remains of your dignity and slink off out of this argument.

[TheRedTemplar]

Look, kid, if you're trying to troll, you're trying to hard. If you honestly believe anything you said yourself, well, your life to live not mine. Happy travels, o' Commander Contrarian.

[tieren]

Still... I'd try it as a very rare/legendary expendable or an artifact that has some very serious drawbacks/is actually a lich feeding on your spells to get at your soul...

Frontal lobe of Vecna

[Dr. Cliché]

Frontal lobe of Vecna

:smallbiggrin:

I have to ask though, how/where would you wear that item?

Or, is it like the Head of Vecna, and you'd have to replace your own frontal lobe with it?

[RickAllison]

:smallbiggrin:

I have to ask though, how/where would you wear that item?

Or, is it like the Head of Vecna, and you'd have to replace your own frontal lobe with it?

I'll do the knife part of it!!!

[Socratov]

Wow, talk about straw-manning over here. I should say we should refrain form using fire themed spells...

about the fundamental rules, I could see it go either of 2 ways:

If you think that the fundamental rules are the rules without any optional rules (as close to RAW as you can get), then concentration is a fundamental rule.

If you consider fundamental rules the set of rules you can't change through houserules and optional rules without moving so far away from DnD5e that you aren't playing DnD5e anymore. In this case, a case could be made that without de concentration rule the game would still be considered DnD 5e.

I can understand both lines of thought. I could even consider both interpretations as correct, both gramatically as conceptually.

Personally I consider the rule on its own useful and even neccessary at times. Though, to be fair, a bit restrictive. Some spells aren't worth it to use because of concentration and I'd think that if a caster can dish out 6th lvl spells, that 1st lvl spells shouldn't count for your concentration limit anymore (and that makes sense in a fantasy setting since the magic of 1st lvl spells becomes that more elementary, but I digress).

Having said that, the current rules are such that you can only concentrate on one spell (unless you can cheat like a sorcerer with twin spell). Doubling that makes for a great advantage over other casters.

[dev6500]

I have felt like only allowing 1 concentration based spell at a time is a little heavy handed. I have been thinking about it lately and I would either go over the list of concentration based spells and change some of the shorter duration ones(1 minute or so) to no concentration or I would modify the concentration mechanic.

Make it so that you can concentrate on 1 spell or 2 spells as long as both spells were of a level less than half the max level you can cast rounded down. So a wizard who can cast level 5 spells can concentrate on 1 spell of any level or 2 spells of level 2 or lower. That way it opens up some buff options without expanding the power too much.

If you want to make an item that allows the caster to concentrate on an additional spell perhaps make it like that. It just gives the caster the ability to concentrate on 2 weaker spells they are capable of.

[Addaran]

While not allowing to have two concentration makes sense to stop mega-combo and buff-stacking, it's a bit too heavy handed. If your attack cantrip is create bonfire or if you want to use guidance/resistance, you're screwed. Likewise for keeping day-long spell like Hex but wanting to cast fog cloud or other control spell.


Okay, chaps, can you suggest anything that would stop these nasty combos, but still allow the player to concentrate on 2 spells?

Make an item that lets you twin (like the sorcerer) a spell once per day.
Make an item that lets you concentrate on a second spell but it must be the same as the first. (blocks most combos except scary Conjure double spells.)
Make an item that lets you concentrate on two spells, but one of them must be a cantrip (or lvl 1 spell maybe).
Talk to the player to see why he want the ability to concentrate on two spells. If it's for a special combo that isn't game breaking or so he can use X spell without using the ability to use concentration spell, you can give an item that keeps concentration for a specific spell. (maybe the team absolutly want you to cast bless or magic weapon but you'd prefer to use fun control spells.

[Regitnui]

People really miss CoDzilla, don't they?

Didn't someone point out that the shield guardian essentially allows concentration on two spells? It wouldn't be too far off to allow a familiar, squishy as they are, to do so as well (for 4th level or below spells). Most familiars can be taken out by anything over CR 2 if you go by raw numbers (not RaW numbers. AFB.) So the DM just extends the wise NPC's caster targeting to include aiming for the familiar.



I'd also like to point out that concentration is a fundamental rule of the game; imps and quasits (for example) use it to determine how long their invisibility abilities last. I think the chain devil's animate chains also relies on concentration. How would you resolve monster abilities that rely on concentration if you removed it so that we can CoDzilla again?

[Cybren]

I don't consider the concentration mechanic so fundamental a rule that you can't break it with a magic item. 1) by being an item it risks being destroyed or stolen 2) using all sorts of combos still depletes resources (spell slots) twice as fast, and 3) it's rarely doing something that a party with two spellcasters isn't already capable of doing.

I'd actually consider it a cool, powerful feeling item, and well designed, as it allows the player to use it in many different ways.


I'd also like to point out that concentration is a fundamental rule of the game; imps and quasits (for example) use it to determine how long their invisibility abilities last. I think the chain devil's animate chains also relies on concentration. How would you resolve monster abilities that rely on concentration if you removed it so that we can CoDzilla again? why is the DM giving items to monsters if they don't like the result?

[Regitnui]

why is the DM giving items to monsters if they don't like the result?

Er... What does giving items to monsters have to do with the imp's invisibility relying on concentration?

[Cybren]

Er... What does giving items to monsters have to do with the imp's invisibility relying on concentration?

Why would the imps concentration be relevant if it doesn't have the item?

[Regitnui]

Why would the imps concentration be relevant if it doesn't have the item?

It doesn't. I'm referring to an argument on the last page whether Concentration is a fundamental rule of 5e with a new point. Read the whole topic.

Hypothesis: Concentration is an integral part of the game.

Evidence: Monster abilities rely on concentration instead of durations; e.g. Imp/Quasit invisibility lasts as long as the creature keeps concentration.

Thus: Concentration is an integral part of the game, not to be removed lightly.

[Cybren]

It doesn't. I'm referring to an argument on the last page whether Concentration is a fundamental rule of 5e with a new point. Read the whole topic.

Hypothesis: Concentration is an integral part of the game.

Evidence: Monster abilities rely on concentration instead of durations; e.g. Imp/Quasit invisibility lasts as long as the creature keeps concentration.

Thus: Concentration is an integral part of the game, not to be removed lightly.

That's not relevant to this item, nor does it establish the rule as fundamental. It's just a rule. No rule is absolute, and debating how important or fundamental a rule is is immaterial to the merits of anything gameplay related.

[Regitnui]

That's not relevant to this item, nor does it establish the rule as fundamental. It's just a rule. No rule is absolute, and debating how important or fundamental a rule is is immaterial to the merits of anything gameplay related.

The debate was already happening on the last page. I just contributed.

If I were to include such an item, it would be near a capstone. Perhaps a sort of ioun stone circlet that the player has to develop themselves. It then becomes a Legendary Artefact Wondrous Item that has its own intelligence.

[Temperjoke]

The debate was already happening on the last page. I just contributed.

If I were to include such an item, it would be near a capstone. Perhaps a sort of ioun stone circlet that the player has to develop themselves. It then becomes a Legendary Artefact Wondrous Item that has its own intelligence.

It being a sentient item would explain how it allows you to maintain concentration on a second spell, the item is doing the concentration. Maybe as a balancing factor it burns up an extra spell slot to power it's concentration. That would keep lower level players from going crazy, and higher level players have bigger threats to contend with.

[Regitnui]

It being a sentient item would explain how it allows you to maintain concentration on a second spell, the item is doing the concentration. Maybe as a balancing factor it burns up an extra spell slot to power it's concentration. That would keep lower level players from going crazy, and higher level players have bigger threats to contend with.

And it's a jerk; convinced of its own power ("I am an archmage, you are my vessel") despite needing to be attuned to even talk to someone. Intraparty conflict is fun!

A warforged version would be a docent.

[Temperjoke]

And it's a jerk; convinced of its own power ("I am an archmage, you are my vessel") despite needing to be attuned to even talk to someone. Intraparty conflict is fun!

A warforged version would be a docent.

"By the gods, you are pathetic! When I was your age, I was casting level 10 spells! Against 5 ancient Red dragons! While playing dragonchess in my mind against a gold dragon across the world!"

Ooh, not speaking just through attunement, but rather, it's a big floppy pointy hat and it can talk out loud like the Hogwart's Sorting Hat, it has to be attuned to use though, otherwise it just sits there mocking you.

[MaxWilson]

Here's a new hypothetical question:

If I were your DM, and an NPC psionicist offered to perform psychic surgery on you which would, he said, split your mind in half so that both halves could concentrate on different things independently, but there might be some incidental mental damage... would you take me up on it?

If you ask about the nature of the mental damage, I'd tell you (the player) that there's a 50% chance you'll come down with a nasty dissociative memory disorder which gives a 10% chance that any spell you cast will fail outright, and a 20% chance that any skill check for a primarily-mental task (recall monster lore, persuade somebody, etc.) will fail because you can't remember how to do it. Finally, every time XP is handed out there is a 10% chance you gain zero XP instead of whatever you earned (lessons learned fail to embed themselves properly in long-term memory).

Now that you knows the odds and the risk, would that change your willingness to take me up on it?

[Temperjoke]

Here's a new hypothetical question:

If I were your DM, and an NPC psionicist offered to perform psychic surgery on you which would, he said, split your mind in half so that both halves could concentrate on different things independently, but there might be some incidental mental damage... would you take me up on it?

If you ask about the nature of the mental damage, I'd tell you (the player) that there's a 50% chance you'll come down with a nasty dissociative memory disorder which gives a 10% chance that any spell you cast will fail outright, and a 20% chance that any skill check for a primarily-mental task (recall monster lore, persuade somebody, etc.) will fail because you can't remember how to do it. Finally, every time XP is handed out there is a 10% chance you gain zero XP instead of whatever you earned (lessons learned fail to embed themselves properly in long-term memory).

Now that you knows the odds and the risk, would that change your willingness to take me up on it?

Would there also be a risk of developing a second personality that would be created through random rolls by the DM? Because while the other parts would be frustrating not just for myself and the other players, that might be entertaining.

EDIT: Since we've moved into the weird science part of the discussion, what about having another head grafted to your body to maintain the concentration for a 2nd spell? I mean, they can make flesh golems, so I'd imagine that a second head would be less trouble.

[MaxWilson]

Would there also be a risk of developing a second personality that would be created through random rolls by the DM? Because while the other parts would be frustrating not just for myself and the other players, that might be entertaining.

EDIT: Since we've moved into the weird science part of the discussion, what about having another head grafted to your body to maintain the concentration for a 2nd spell? I mean, they can make flesh golems, so I'd imagine that a second head would be less trouble.

I like both those ideas.

Weird science is more fun for me as a DM than handing out magic items. For one thing, weird science can't be looted after one PC dies for another PC. For another thing, it makes the PC more distinctive, whereas magic items seem to me to take the spotlight off the PC and put it on his gear.

[Temperjoke]

I like both those ideas.

Weird science is more fun for me as a DM than handing out magic items. For one thing, weird science can't be looted after one PC dies for another PC. For another thing, it makes the PC more distinctive, whereas magic items seem to me to take the spotlight off the PC and put it on his gear.

Having a second head might be awkward if the first head gets killed and you're not near a person qualified to properly perform surgery.

As to your proposal, I probably would if it matched my character, such as a slightly "off-kilter" GOO Warlock.

[INDYSTAR188]

Would there also be a risk of developing a second personality that would be created through random rolls by the DM? Because while the other parts would be frustrating not just for myself and the other players, that might be entertaining.

EDIT: Since we've moved into the weird science part of the discussion, what about having another head grafted to your body to maintain the concentration for a 2nd spell? I mean, they can make flesh golems, so I'd imagine that a second head would be less trouble.

How would you balance concentration checks? Would they both make one everytime the body is hit?

[Temperjoke]

How would you balance concentration checks? Would they both make one everytime the body is hit?

Naturally, since it's one body that they're both connected to. It's part of the risk. It's also balanced in other ways too, anything that would affect a single person's mind they would both get a chance to make a saving throw on, it's another set of senses making perception checks; it's also going to be at a huge penalty for most social interactions, depending on the setting, not to mention two mouths and two noses means that they're extra vulnerable to poison gas attacks. There's also the potential for inter-body conflict, minds don't agree on what to do, for example.

[Carlobrand]

Interesting discussion from a game balance point of view. I'm sitting here thinking from a player's point of view: I found an item that allows me to concentrate on two spells at once - what trick is the gamemaster hiding up his sleeve?

Okay, it could just be simple magic, but the obvious way to create the ability to concentrate on two things at once is to put some form of rudimentary intelligence in the item to handle the second spell, and therein lies ample room for gamemaster mischief. Maybe it wouldn't stop me from using it, but I would definitely be waiting for that other shoe to drop. And sure as shootin', if I'm the gamemaster and I introduce this thingie, I have another shoe waiting to drop.

[Regitnui]

"By the gods, you are pathetic! When I was your age, I was casting level 10 spells! Against 5 ancient Red dragons! While playing dragonchess in my mind against a gold dragon across the world!"


Pretty much. On top of having no ability to cast spells of its own.


And sure as shootin', if I'm the gamemaster and I introduce this thingie, I have another shoe waiting to drop.

Damn straight. The item having a patronizing, annoying intelligence of its own is the least you, as a DM, should have planned for an item that good. Like a permanent invisibility amulet that doesn't become invisible, instead glowing brightly and heatlessly while in use.


Here's a new hypothetical question:

If I were your DM, and an NPC psionicist offered to perform psychic surgery on you which would, he said, split your mind in half so that both halves could concentrate on different things independently, but there might be some incidental mental damage... would you take me up on it?

If you ask about the nature of the mental damage, I'd tell you (the player) that there's a 50% chance you'll come down with a nasty dissociative memory disorder which gives a 10% chance that any spell you cast will fail outright, and a 20% chance that any skill check for a primarily-mental task (recall monster lore, persuade somebody, etc.) will fail because you can't remember how to do it. Finally, every time XP is handed out there is a 10% chance you gain zero XP instead of whatever you earned (lessons learned fail to embed themselves properly in long-term memory).

Now that you knows the odds and the risk, would that change your willingness to take me up on it?

Hell no. It might be fun playing a character with schizophrenia, but not for any decent length of time. Though I do admire the thought behind that as a penalty/bonus balance.

[Temperjoke]

Hell no. It might be fun playing a character with schizophrenia, but not for any decent length of time. Though I do admire the thought behind that as a penalty/bonus balance.

I dunno if it would be that bad. The experience issue might be bad, if it happens a lot. I mean, the failing to recall things isn't any worse than failing a roll. Maybe instead of a flat percentage, having disadvantage on the roll would fit mechanics better, then you can partially recall on a low roll, as opposed to remembering as much as you potentially could.

[MaxWilson]

How would you balance concentration checks? Would they both make one everytime the body is hit?

Yes, because that's how concentration works, and nothing in the psychic surgery prevents you from feeling the pain of damage.

Perhaps the psychic surgeon is willing to mess with your ability to feel pain as well, if you like. As a DM, I might have him offer to turn the base DC for concentration checks down to DC 0 (instead of DC 10), but in exchange you don't get to know your current HP totals. I will track that for you, and I will also track damage to you without telling you when you were hit. In order to determine your current HP someone has to make a DC 15 Medicine check (costs an action in combat, and I won't tell them how well they rolled) and if they pass, I'll tell them your current HP to within 10%. The person making the check could be yourself.

I don't always offer my players biomodifications and psychic surgery, but when I do this is kind of how I run things. I also place magic items on my NPCs with built-in disadvantages, like a Ring of Air Elemental Command that makes you vulnerable to poison (and save at disadvantage vs. poison too). The players never actually got a chance to loot that one because they never beat the guy who owned it...


The item having a patronizing, annoying intelligence of its own is the least you, as a DM, should have planned for an item that good. Like a permanent invisibility amulet that doesn't become invisible, instead glowing brightly and heatlessly while in use.

I would so take that. It's as good as a permanent Blur spell.

[Regitnui]

I would so take that. It's as good as a permanent Blur spell.

Thanks. I was aiming for "usable, but not broken". Also, the social penalties for a character who looks like a will-o'-the-wisp trying to interact with someone also acts as a counterbalance.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks. I was aiming for "usable, but not broken". Also, the social penalties for a character who looks like a will-o'-the-wisp trying to interact with someone also acts as a counterbalance.

I assumed he could just take it off at need. If it's permanent permanent, as in irreversible, then I might not take it after all.

[NNescio]

And it's a jerk; convinced of its own power ("I am an archmage, you are my vessel") despite needing to be attuned to even talk to someone. Intraparty conflict is fun!

A warforged version would be a docent.


Damn straight. The item having a patronizing, annoying intelligence of its own is the least you, as a DM, should have planned for an item that good. Like a permanent invisibility amulet that doesn't become invisible, instead glowing brightly and heatlessly while in use.

So, basically... Excalibur?

(ﺧ益ﺨ)

[Regitnui]

I assumed he could just take it off at need. If it's permanent permanent, as in irreversible, then I might not take it after all.

Well, maybe it's cursed, maybe it isn't. But a bright light pointing out where you are is a small handicap for a rogue anyway.


So, basically... Excalibur?

(ﺧ益ﺨ)

Which Excalibur?

[Temperjoke]

Well, maybe it's cursed, maybe it isn't. But a bright light pointing out where you are is a small handicap for a rogue anyway.



Which Excalibur?

Judging from the face, and the topic at the moment, I'm guessing Excalibur from the anime/manga Soul Eater.

EDIT: And if that were the weapon being given, then oh my god no, it's not worth it.

[MaxWilson]

Well, maybe it's cursed, maybe it isn't. But a bright light pointing out where you are is a small handicap for a rogue anyway.

I was thinking of giving it to the party tank. It's perfect for a Paladin, for example, as long as he can remove it out of combat.

[Regitnui]

I was thinking of giving it to the party tank. It's perfect for a Paladin, for example, as long as he can remove it out of combat.

That's a thought. I was thinking very narrowly...

[Kaerou]

That's actually a pretty scary example. That combo would be very effective.

Seem it done before. Teamwork for the win. Now always possible due to initiative rolls, but when it is possibly done it basically just wins any battle short of dimension door etc.

[Oramac]

I didn't read the whole thread, but for a Sorcerer of sufficient level, it would be incredibly powerful.

Twin Greater Invis on yourself and the Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/Rogue

then

Twin Haste on yourself and said Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/Rogue.

You and the other player have essentially permanent advantage on attacks, double speed, +2 AC, and an extra action. Put it on a Fighter with Action Surge and the nova round would be obscene.

Or any other combination of the above.

[Socko525]

I've been toying with the idea of an item that allows momentary double concentration.

Basically this item allows the previous concentration effect to persist for two rounds after the second one is cast (it can still be lost due to a failed concentration check).

It adds some power, but it's not as OP as double concentration constantly

[Regitnui]

I've been toying with the idea of an item that allows momentary double concentration.

Basically this item allows the previous concentration effect to persist for two rounds after the second one is cast (it can still be lost due to a failed concentration check).

It adds some power, but it's not as OP as double concentration constantly

Now that could work quite well with the "sentient jerk headwear" magic item we were discussing earlier.

[MrFahrenheit]

I'm liking where the last few posts have been taking this.

Perhaps a magical artifact one must attune to that lets you maintain concentration on the first of two spells for one to nine more rounds, and you have to burn your own spell slots to power it (I.e., either one level nine slot or some combination of lower level slots would get you nine additional rounds). You'd still have to cast your concentration spells one action at a time (so quicken spell or action surge would be some of the ways to do two at once). Once used, no matter how many/which level slots were expended, it would only reset after you regain spell slots (likely long rest, or short rest for warlocks, though there are other means as well).

[Nagog]

I think this would be a great idea. I came looking for this forum to find a way to help build a area control Druid to play in a campaign that is noticeably lacking in tanks and martial characters, and while some of the points expressed here are good, the whole argument of "Is concentration essential/fundamental" is unnecessary. It's D&D guys if you don't like the way somebody DMs their campaign, don't play in their campaign.

As for the issue this was created for, I feel there are plenty of ways to balance this, if you feel such a thing needs balancing beyond the rarity of the item that allows it's use. Here are some of my ideas:

1. when using two concentration spells, not only would you use the spell slots for both of the spells, but also a spell slot of the sum of their levels. In other words, the most powerful combo of spells would be a 5th level and 4th level spell at the same time, also only available at extremely high levels, however combining two first level spells is costly in the number of slots used, but the overall value of the combo can be worth it. Some amendment would have to be made for cantrips, but the base is still there.

2. Double concentration checks, either at a penalty or at disadvantage. Make the DC of the check higher or otherwise more difficult to maintain.

3. While concentrating on 2 spells, that takes up your entire mental capacity, meaning it takes your action and move action to maintain them both. So yeah you're invisible but an enemy with an intelligence of like 4 has the capacity to at least attack where you were last seen. Also no way to get away from AOE attacks or other hazards without losing one or both of the spells

4. The DM. The DM has all power, and can express their creative liberty in any way they wish, so if they allow you to focus on two spells at once, they can also use their DM jurisdiction to make the enemies they throw at you capable of handling that, and perhaps the same ability to dish it out, perhaps with more power to force the players to think out their strategy more even with this "buff".

[Kane0]

Please note this thread hasn't been active for years. Best to start a new thread to avoid necromancy.

[Lupine]

I'm sure you could combine greater invisability with something else, maybe silence or pass without trace? cast that on a rogue, and you have pointy death incarnate