RAW Experts Please! Definitively rule on Mother Cyst!

[magicalmagicman]

The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below (and described in Chapter 4 of this book). You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst (if you are a caster who prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for each such spell).

I need RAW proof on how this feat works!

1. Does this feat add the 10 cyst spells to your spell known?
2. Does this feat add those spells to your class spell list?
3. Despite the Sorcerer, Wizard, and Cleric spell tag, can any caster cast the cyst spells?

For #3, I think yes because
1. There is no class requirement for the feat.
2. It grants you access to those spells, which means by RAW, you have access to those spells despite being a Paladin, Druid, Sublime Chord, etc.
3. "Cast these spells like any other spell you can cast" suggests that as long as you can cast spells, these spells would be identical to them such as being divine.

Depending on these answers, this will either make or break a new character I'm cooking!

Please provide air-tight RAW proof of your opinions! My DM generally bans anything that requires speculation!

[Segev]

I need RAW proof on how this feat works!Well, I am not anybody "official," but this is one of my favorite feats and I can analyze the RAW fairly well, so...


1. Does this feat add the 10 cyst spells to your spell known?Yes. It says so. You have those spells as spells known if you're a sorcerer, as "mastery" spells if a wizard (it again says so), and on your class list if you're a cleric.

2. Does this feat add those spells to your class spell list?No. But it doesn't need to, because the spells ARE Wizard, Sorcerer, and Cleric spells. They just require the feat to ever use them. (This means that anybody can use wands or scrolls of them, if they're of the appropriate classes; they needn't have the feat.)

3. Despite the Sorcerer, Wizard, and Cleric spell tag, can any caster cast the cyst spells?No. Anybody can take the feat, but unless they can cast sorcerer, wizard, or cleric spells, they cannot prepare nor cast these.

That said, I would strongly recommend a DM house rule that anybody who picks up the feat gets the spells for their chosen class. I don't think it inherently unbalances anything to let a Druid cast them, and it's certainly flavorful for a Dread Necromancer to have them.

But, per the RAW, only a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric can actually cast the spells in question.



For #3, I think yes because
1. There is no class requirement for the feat.
2. It grants you access to those spells, which means by RAW, you have access to those spells despite being a Paladin, Druid, Sublime Chord, etc.
3. "Cast these spells like any other spell you can cast" suggests that as long as you can cast spells, these spells would be identical to them such as being divine.Sadly, no, none of this is true. It is written under the assumption you are one of the classes which has them on the class list. It doesn't actually allow them to be cast as, say, Assassin spells.

Again, though, I would encourage any DM who allows the feat to allow it to work that way. Unless the DM really doesn't like the idea of a particular class being able to cast these spells, in which case he probably shouldn't allow the feat for that class.


Depending on these answers, this will either make or break a new character I'm cooking!

Please provide air-tight RAW proof of your opinions! My DM generally bans anything that requires speculation!

What're you building? If it's not a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric, it won't, by the RAW, be able to cast those spells, sadly. You'd need to talk your DM into house-ruling it.

[Telonius]

For number 1 ... it depends. As you've mentioned, the spells are already on the list of Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Since a Cleric knows all of the spells on their list, then yes; it becomes a known Cleric spell. The feat specifically calls out "as if you had the Spell Mastery feat" for prepared spellcasters. Wizard1 is a prereq of that feat, and it lets you choose "a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier that you already know." So, since Spell Mastery applies, it's a Known spell for a Wizard.

For the other classes, it depends on whether your DM is going to look at these two sentences in isolation, or together:


The mother cyst grants you access to a selection of cyst-related spells listed below (and described in Chapter 4 of this book). You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst (if you are a caster who prepares spells, you can prepare all necrotic cyst spells without referring to a spellbook, as if you had the Spell Mastery feat for each such spell).

It's pretty clear to me that - in both wording and intent - the feat lets you cast those ten spells just like any other spells you can cast. It's possible to rule that a Sorcerer would have to select them as spells known. Sorcerer has "access" to all of the spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. However, if your DM rules that "access" means that the spell is merely selectable as a known spell from Sorcerer and not automatically known, it means that "has access to" is the same thing as "on the class spell list." This is good news for classes that automatically know their full spell list (i.e. most of them whose names aren't Sorcerer or Bard). The feat does not require any particular spellcaster level or entry class. Anyone can take it.

Regarding other classes, the lack of class names in the spell descriptions doesn't seem too huge of a problem. Fixed-list spellcasters like Beguiler would hardly function at all if they required a "Beguiler" tag on the spell list, and they seem to be able to cast all of the PHB spells listed in the class description. From the feat, you can cast them "like any other spell you can cast." It doesn't let you cast a 9th-level spell if you don't already have access to 9th-level spell slots; so non-Sublime Chord Bards are out of luck for 7th-9th; Rangers and Paladins can only cast up to 4th; and mundanes would get a nice shiny tumor for the feat and nothing else.

If you take the very narrowest wording of "access to," and rules that it doesn't put it on anybody else's spell list, there is still a chance for Rangers and Paladins to cast (at least one of) the spells: Sword of the Arcane Order, from Champions of Valor. It allows them to prepare and cast Wizard spells from a spellbook. Necrotic Awareness does not have the [Evil] tag, so even a Paladin (with both Sword of the Arcane Order and Mother Cyst) would be able to cast it. Lots of truly weird hoops to jump through just for that, but just in case he wanted to, he can.

[magicalmagicman]

Yes. It says so. You have those spells as spells known if you're a sorcerer, as "mastery" spells if a wizard (it again says so), and on your class list if you're a cleric.

Yes, thank you. I really need to just push the spell mastery aspect. You can only choose spells you know for spell mastery, wizards gain those spells like spell mastery, therefore wizards know those spells, therefore sorcerers know those spells too.



No. Anybody can take the feat, but unless they can cast sorcerer, wizard, or cleric spells, they cannot prepare nor cast these.

...

But, per the RAW, only a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric can actually cast the spells in question.

Sadly, no, none of this is true. It is written under the assumption you are one of the classes which has them on the class list. It doesn't actually allow them to be cast as, say, Assassin spells.


Why is none of it true? RAW says you cast them like any other spells you cast, and you gain access to those spells. We've established that they add to your spell known.

I guess you can argue that it's added to your sorcerer, wizard, and cleric spell knowns, not assassin or paladin's, but then that part where it says "you cast these spells like any other spell you can cast" means as long as you can cast spells, you can cast the cyst spells like them.

I don't think "under the assumption" is a very good argument. There are a ridiculous amount of base spellcasting classes available, so i think not including sorcerer, wizard, or cleric in the feat prerequisite is not an oversight.



What're you building? If it's not a wizard, sorcerer, or cleric, it won't, by the RAW, be able to cast those spells, sadly. You'd need to talk your DM into house-ruling it.

I don't want to mention it in this thread on the possibility that this thread might go off-topic.

[magicalmagicman]

It's pretty clear to me that - in both wording and intent - the feat lets you cast those ten spells just like any other spells you can cast. It's possible to rule that a Sorcerer would have to select them as spells known. Sorcerer has "access" to all of the spells on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. However, if your DM rules that "access" means that the spell is merely selectable as a known spell from Sorcerer and not automatically known, it means that "has access to" is the same thing as "on the class spell list." This is good news for classes that automatically know their full spell list (i.e. most of them whose names aren't Sorcerer or Bard). The feat does not require any particular spellcaster level or entry class. Anyone can take it.

Sorcerers (and clerics) already have access to all of the spells since they are already on the sorcerer/wizard list, so the narrow way of reading "access" has absolutely no benefit at all. The other narrow interpretation of "access" could just mean that now because you have the required focus for those spells, you have "access" to them, but I think the wording of that is wrong too. Whether you can cast the spell or whether you have access is two different things, and this interpretation allows you to cast not access, so yeah. I think definitively Mother Cyst adds spells to your spell known.



Regarding other classes, the lack of class names in the spell descriptions doesn't seem too huge of a problem. Fixed-list spellcasters like Beguiler would hardly function at all if they required a "Beguiler" tag on the spell list, and they seem to be able to cast all of the PHB spells listed in the class description. From the feat, you can cast them "like any other spell you can cast." It doesn't let you cast a 9th-level spell if you don't already have access to 9th-level spell slots; so non-Sublime Chord Bards are out of luck for 7th-9th; Rangers and Paladins can only cast up to 4th; and mundanes would get a nice shiny tumor for the feat and nothing else.

Yes! Thank you! You just proved the tags on the spell list don't mean jack. I think they only included clerics, sorcerers, and wizards to show that those spells can be both divine and arcane. This reasoning isn't airtight because beguilers and such have their own spell list which invokes "specific beats general" rule.

[Segev]

Telonius raises good points about the other classes' ability to add spells to their list. I am convinced that taking the feat adds those spells to your class list for the character.

The tags aren't meaningless, though: as spells that are definitively on the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard list, they could theoretically prepare/learn them...but without the feat, they can't cast them. They can also (regardless of preparation or learning) use staves, wands, and scrolls of them. Only somebody with the feat could MAKE such items, but any cleric, wizard, or sorcerer can USE them. Because they are spells on their class spell list.

But yes, your Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Druid, Assassin, or Suel Archanamach can all use those spells if they take the Mother Cyst feat, per Telonius's excellent reasoning.

Your Ranger can, too.

Your Paladin...probably can't, if only because I think using the spells in question would cost him his class features and thus lose him the class he was using to cast them in the first place.

[atemu1234]

Telonius raises good points about the other classes' ability to add spells to their list. I am convinced that taking the feat adds those spells to your class list for the character.

The tags aren't meaningless, though: as spells that are definitively on the cleric, sorcerer, and wizard list, they could theoretically prepare/learn them...but without the feat, they can't cast them. They can also (regardless of preparation or learning) use staves, wands, and scrolls of them. Only somebody with the feat could MAKE such items, but any cleric, wizard, or sorcerer can USE them. Because they are spells on their class spell list.

But yes, your Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Druid, Assassin, or Suel Archanamach can all use those spells if they take the Mother Cyst feat, per Telonius's excellent reasoning.

Your Ranger can, too.

Your Paladin...probably can't, if only because I think using the spells in question would cost him his class features and thus lose him the class he was using to cast them in the first place.

Honestly, this works pretty well.

Makes me want to run another Mother Cyst Dread Necromancer, though.

[Segev]

Makes me want to run another Mother Cyst Dread Necromancer, though.

If you ever do, do share how it goes. There is so much potential FUN to be had with that feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your Paladin...probably can't, if only because I think using the spells in question would cost him his class features and thus lose him the class he was using to cast them in the first place.

He actually could cast necrotic awareness but that's it.