Rogue - Magic Initiate Combo

[Linker2k]

Hello,

I wanted to know about a combo:

Rogue (Swashbuckler) Fancy Footwork + Toujours L'Audace + Magic Initiate Cantrip (Booming Blade) + Sneak Attack + Magic Initiate Lvl 1 Spell Hex.


The idea is to use HEX, go to the enemy, use the combo i described above and then get away from that enemy (1 or 2 spaces), this can be combined with a secondary attack for more damage.

What do you think?

[CaptAl]

Booming Blade uses the Cast a Spell action, and is therefore unusable with Extra Attack or Two Weapon Fighting (both require the attack action). As for forcing an opponent to take the rider damage, or lose its action to avoid the damage, it's a solid option.

Combine Haste with this combo and you can pull off two attacks. Or, if you have the Sentinal feat, you can reliably get an AoO if the mob takes the rider damage and approaches you.

[Biggstick]

Booming Blade uses the Cast a Spell action, and is therefore unusable with Extra Attack or Two Weapon Fighting (both require the attack action). As for forcing an opponent to take the rider damage, or lose its action to avoid the damage, it's a solid option.

Combine Haste with this combo and you can pull off two attacks. Or, if you have the Sentinal feat, you can reliably get an AoO if the mob takes the rider damage and approaches you.

I'm curious as to how Sentinel reliably proc's an AoO with this set-up. They aren't being compelled to leave your range once they get close to you, and them approaching you doesn't proc the AoO.

[JohnStone]

any of the "Bladesinger" cantrips are nasty on a rogue. this is a pretty standard combo although I would replace hex with something more utility based like find familiar or shield. come to think of it i am not sure this is legal aren't booming/greenflame wizard spells and hex a warlock spell?

[Draco4472]

Hello,

I wanted to know about a combo:

Rogue (Swashbuckler) Fancy Footwork + Toujours L'Audace + Magic Initiate Cantrip (Booming Blade) + Sneak Attack + Magic Initiate Lvl 1 Spell Hex.


The idea is to use HEX, go to the enemy, use the combo i described above and then get away from that enemy (1 or 2 spaces), this can be combined with a secondary attack for more damage.

What do you think?

Booming Blade is a spell attack, thus you cannot use extra attack nor the second attack dual-wielders get as a bonus action when they make a weapon attack. Interesting idea, I've seen arcane tricksters do it well. Swashbucklers make it just as good.

[Draco4472]

The new cantrips presented in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide are for all arcane casters, or Wizards, Warlocks, and Sorcerers. These cantrips are not restricted to Wizards only, thus picking up Hex and booming blade with the Magic Initiate feat is perfectly legal.

[CaptAl]

I'm curious as to how Sentinel reliably proc's an AoO with this set-up. They aren't being compelled to leave your range once they get close to you, and them approaching you doesn't proc the AoO.

You're right. I misremembered. It's PAM that procs AoO on approach. Sentinal is for when a mob attacks your buddy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Booming Blade is a spell attack, thus you cannot use extra attack nor the second attack dual-wielders get as a bonus action when they make a weapon attack. Interesting idea, I've seen arcane tricksters do it well. Swashbucklers make it just as good.
A Swashbuckler would make it fantastic, since you get to avoid AoO. Ideally, you'd go
1) Move adjacent, Booming Blade Sneak Attack
2) Use Fancy Footwork to move out of range without provoking an AoO
3) Target follows, eating the Booming Blade damage

Unfortunately, there's no good follow-up-- none of Polearm Master's weapon options work with Sneak Attack, and Sentinel doesn't let you hit them as they move in. Your best bet is to hope your DM will let you use a whip with PAM, or to move next to someone squishier and hope the target attacks them instead. Then you can AoO Sneak Attack them.

[RulesJD]

My current favorite to play build:

Wild Magic Sorc 1 (For SCAG cantrips + Shield spell + Wild Magic Surges + Tides of Chaos for Advantage)

Battlemaster Fighter 3 (Precision, Riposte, Menacing)

Swashbuckler Rogue 6+

Human Variant for Sentinel Feat. Equipment is a Rapier and a shield.


So, I can Booming Blade on my turn and move away (standard tactic).

If the enemy moves closer and attacks me, I can either Shield spell (triggering a Wild Magic Surge), Uncanny Dodge if they really hit me for at least 1/2 damage, or if they miss, Riposte. Because it is no longer my turn, Riposte = Sneak Attack damage.

Alternatively, I can use GFB and stay in melee. If the target attacks me, same as above. If it doesn't attack me, I do Sentinel strike for yet again, more Sneak Attack.

Lastly, if I'm feeling froggy, I BB on my turn, step back, Action Surge -> enemy comes into melee, BB again. Off turn, so I get BB + Sneak Attack damage on the hit when they approach. If it doesn't look like they're going to move, I just Action Surge in melee range with the trigger being literally anything so it's an off-turn hit, thus BB + Sneak.

It is a pretty deep setup and took me a while, but man when it came online at level 7 it was pretty sweet and has only gotten more fun since then.

[Specter]

1st round: cast Hex and attack.
Other rounds: use the cantrip, then Disengage as bonus action to move away.

If they're melee, they will have to move to hit you, thus eating the damage every time.

[Mellack]

Something to keep in mind is that the BB attack is casting a spell and uses your casting stat to attack. So you would be using CHA with it (assuming warlock for your magic initiate.)

[RickAllison]

Something to keep in mind is that the BB attack is casting a spell and uses your casting stat to attack. So you would be using CHA with it (assuming warlock for your magic initiate.)

Nope. You make an attack with a melee weapon as part of casting it. You use the Cast a Spell action, but the actual attack is with your attack stat. This could be Str, Dex, or a casting stat if Shillelagh is used.

[R.Shackleford]

Nope. You make an attack with a melee weapon as part of casting it. You use the Cast a Spell action, but the actual attack is with your attack stat. This could be Str, Dex, or a casting stat if Shillelagh is used.

Yay for keeping 5e fiddly free!

/s

[RulesJD]

If you take GFB, you would you the relevant classes casting stat for the damage rider.

[coredump]

I think the GFB/Sneak Attack combo is overrated.

As a rogue, you are doing a lot of damage with SA, so it is important to actually hit. By going two weapon, you have a much lower chance of missing completely and losing out of the SA.

[Corran]

My current favorite to play build:

Wild Magic Sorc 1 (For SCAG cantrips + Shield spell + Wild Magic Surges + Tides of Chaos for Advantage)

Battlemaster Fighter 3 (Precision, Riposte, Menacing)

Swashbuckler Rogue 6+

Human Variant for Sentinel Feat. Equipment is a Rapier and a shield.


So, I can Booming Blade on my turn and move away (standard tactic).

If the enemy moves closer and attacks me, I can either Shield spell (triggering a Wild Magic Surge), Uncanny Dodge if they really hit me for at least 1/2 damage, or if they miss, Riposte. Because it is no longer my turn, Riposte = Sneak Attack damage.

Alternatively, I can use GFB and stay in melee. If the target attacks me, same as above. If it doesn't attack me, I do Sentinel strike for yet again, more Sneak Attack.

Lastly, if I'm feeling froggy, I BB on my turn, step back, Action Surge -> enemy comes into melee, BB again. Off turn, so I get BB + Sneak Attack damage on the hit when they approach. If it doesn't look like they're going to move, I just Action Surge in melee range with the trigger being literally anything so it's an off-turn hit, thus BB + Sneak.

It is a pretty deep setup and took me a while, but man when it came online at level 7 it was pretty sweet and has only gotten more fun since then.
Nice set-up you've got there. Question, would BB work with riposte if you had warcaster? Also, you might need warcaster to cast shield with your reaction if you are holding a shield with your off-hand, I play a similar in tactics character build, and that is the reason I mostly avoid carrying a shield (since I decided against investing in warcaster).

On another note, wouldn't two more sorcerer levels be worth it? You are sure losing in sneak attack damage, but twinning BB even if it is for a few times per day could be situational very useful, especially when combined with that swashbuckler ability (fancy foorwork, is it?). Maybe it is not worth it given you've already dipped in fighter for 3 levels, and with riposte you could really use all the sneak attack dice you could get. A final thought I have is about the many uses of your reaction. I know that having options is never bad, but having so many options never sat well with me, as the competition lessens the value of each individual feature imo.

[RulesJD]

Nice set-up you've got there. Question, would BB work with riposte if you had warcaster? Also, you might need warcaster to cast shield with your reaction if you are holding a shield with your off-hand, I play a similar in tactics character build, and that is the reason I mostly avoid carrying a shield (since I decided against investing in warcaster).

On another note, wouldn't two more sorcerer levels be worth it? You are sure losing in sneak attack damage, but twinning BB even if it is for a few times per day could be situational very useful, especially when combined with that swashbuckler ability (fancy foorwork, is it?). Maybe it is not worth it given you've already dipped in fighter for 3 levels, and with riposte you could really use all the sneak attack dice you could get. A final thought I have is about the many uses of your reaction. I know that having options is never bad, but having so many options never sat well with me, as the competition lessens the value of each individual feature imo.

1. Warcaster + BB: Given that they've ruled Warcaster + PAM + BB doesn't work, my assumption would be no. Same for Sentinel + BB. If I got a clear ruling that said yes, then I'd definitely trade out my +2 to Dex for Warcaster.

2. Warcaster + Shield: I think technically yes is the answer, but honestly I've never once seen a DM care. One of those rules vs actual gameplay things that I'm okay with having my build incorporate.

3. More Sorc: Absolutely worth it and if I ever got Rogue level 12 for that ASI (character level 16) I'd pick up some more Wild Sorc to end up Rogue 12/Fighter 3/Sorc 5. 5 Twins, Invisibility, minimum stealth roll of like +22 or something insane with also Invis, etc.

[R.Shackleford]

1. Warcaster + BB: Given that they've ruled Warcaster + PAM + BB doesn't work, my assumption would be no. Same for Sentinel + BB. If I got a clear ruling that said yes, then I'd definitely trade out my +2 to Dex for Warcaster.

2. Warcaster + Shield: I think technically yes is the answer, but honestly I've never once seen a DM care. One of those rules vs actual gameplay things that I'm okay with having my build incorporate.

3. More Sorc: Absolutely worth it and if I ever got Rogue level 12 for that ASI (character level 16) I'd pick up some more Wild Sorc to end up Rogue 12/Fighter 3/Sorc 5. 5 Twins, Invisibility, minimum stealth roll of like +22 or something insane with also Invis, etc.

1: Correct.

3: Sorc/Rogue combo quite well. I'm a big fan of Swashbuckler Sorcerers.