How to deal with a bad DM kicking you?

[RoboEmperor]

XD. It kinda pisses me off, so let me rant a little :P

So this DM houserules like crazy. He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.

A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.

He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.

His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.

He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.

We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.

What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.

[Âmesang]

Step one would be to probably put this out of your mind for the moment so you can come back to this with a clear, non-upset mindset. Second, get together with the other players, if possible, and try to work something out with them. You don't really need the referee, do you? :smalltongue:


A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.
"Ooooh!!"

"No, 'arrrrrrghh!!' In the back of the throat."

"…no, 'ooooh,' as in 'surprise and alarm.'"

[Psyren]

No gaming > Bad gaming.

[Honest Tiefling]

Goodness gracious, DnD players not taking something seriously! However could this happen? Quick, someone fetch me a fainting couch, for the idea of sarcasm in DnD has caused me to get the vapors! The very thought that something as lowbrow as a mere joke might enter this game is causing me to become weak...

Seriously, ditch the DM. It doesn't sound like your play styles are compatible and I am getting the idea that he might not be open to criticism. As for being kicked, it depends. If you are kicked out because of incompatibly, it sucks, it can lead to some upset feelings, but overall...Get over it and continue doing other things with your friends. Getting kicked out because of a personal dispute? I would ah, seriously reconsider remaining friends with the DM. I fear this might be the later option, so run as far as you can and get a new group is my advice.

[DarkSoul]

XD. It kinda pisses me off, so let me rant a little :P

So this DM houserules like crazy. He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.Fine, unless he's using these archons to handle all the fighting for some pet NPC. (Incidentally, trumpet archons pretty much can speak telepathically, using the at-will tongues and message abilities.)


A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.Could be worse, take a look at pages 197-198 in the Dungeon Master's Guide.


He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.Completely within his rights to do so. Better focus on your knowledge skills.


His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.Murder hobos get smacked down? Oh, the horror!


He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.This I disagree with, but it's his world. It makes it easier on the players though.


We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.I disagree with this too, because there needs to be something for the other players to do, as well. As long as everyone's engaged in the game session though, combat is completely optional.


What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.PnP roleplaying, particularly for an extended campaign, requires more cooperation and forethought than just rolling something up for a one shot or in a video game. Party cohesion is important. I'm curious if the DM discussed his stance on intra-party conflict with you guys before you rolled up your characters. If so, why did the group completely ignore it in favor of just playing what everyone wanted and party unity be damned? If not, that's his mistake. I also think that how recently you learned about all of this is what makes his kicking you justified or not. If you had no idea he disliked conflict in the group so much, then him kicking you wasn't justified and you should be able to rework your character into something that will fit with the party and style of game he wants to run. However, if you (the players as a group) did know he didn't tolerate party strife and chose to roll demon binders and necromancers anyway, with a cleric of "all things happy, warm and fuzzy" in the group, then yes, his kicking you was justified.

It sounds like the other players were alright with rerolling too, but I get the feeling that the DM wants a more heroic game, not a bunch of morally-gray characters running around with fiends and undead in tow.

All things considered, from what we know of this side of the story (and we may never know the other side unless the DM sees this thread), mistakes were made on both sides and his kicking you was at least understandable, if not appropriate.

[MisterKaws]

He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.


That's some crazy stuff right there. I have absolutely no advice on this one.



A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.


That's not such a rare rule, although the part about consulting with others is just ridiculous. How the hell did the pioneers level up?

I myself just use the standard "Off-time" houserule, presented somewhere in the DMG, which suggests requiring characters to have mandatory off-time to train before being able to level up.



He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.


He's completely allowed to do this. Every campaign has its own lore, and custom campaigns could have anything the DM wants, although most competent DMs listen to what players expect before building their world.



His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.


That's common in normal D&D cities, although most pre-made campaigns ignore that. I have statted a Commoner NPC named Bob. Bob is a level 28 Commoner who owns the most popular tavern in the capital, and he was build following every single rule on NPC creation, including class level.

He's also a master basketweaver, but I digress.



He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.


Well, he can alter the world however he wants, but normal D&D Trolls can even re-grow their heads back if decapitated, so you could present that as a counter-argument.



We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.


He's clearly not fulfilling the players' expectations in this. Talk to him and make



What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.

The DM himself might not like party conflict, and if that's the case, you should talk to him and ask what's allowed in his table before doing it.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think I disagree with 2 points:

1) On the NPC issue: In some ways, it does make sense that a murderhobo would get smacked around. It would make sense that some NPCs are jerks and will abuse their power to torment newcomers. However, it does get grating when this happens 100% of the time, especially if the treatment comes from paragons of goodness like paladins or chosen of good aligned gods. Or if the soceity is supposed to be a mercantile power and yet doesn't understand that not everyone knows their customs. Assuming that the party was a bunch of murder hobos and did something that would provoke that response is a bit much, and that might not be the case.

2) The DM really shouldn't be having Trumpet Archons stop time and speak telepathically in terms of story. Theoretically there could be a case where this might work, but...What's the point of a story without the main characters? Again, more clarification is needed, but it is a giant red flag.

[Ruslan]

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.
You forget he ever existed, and find another DM.

[TheIronGolem]

He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.

Eh, okay for exposition as long as it's not overdone. A bit lazy, perhaps, unless the DM is inexperienced.


A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.

Okay, this is bloody stupid, no question.


He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.

Nothing wrong with that, though he should warn you about it beforehand, and Knowledge skills should still work.


His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.

Not necessarily a bad thing, though it does sound like it was poorly applied.


He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.

I don't see a problem with this.


We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.

Yeah, really bad form there. Players can end up being spotlight hogs without meaning to, but it's a DM's job to hit the pause button on that so that others can get their spotlight time too.


What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

That wasn't the reason you were kicked, it was the excuse. The DM had been wanting to kick you for whatever reason (maybe good, maybe bad), and so he pounced on a perceived opportunity to make you the bad guy. Even if he had a good reason for wanting you gone, this was a crappy thing to do. He should have brought his grievance to you in private, used his grownup words, and kicked you honestly if needed.


Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.

You might not be completely innocent, but you're not the bad guy. Contact the other players and see if you can arrange a new game without that guy.

[Deophaun]

Not everything in your list is bad, although the trumpet archons thing is a flag, because I did have a DM that ran "story time" (not a joke: that's what he called it) and that ultimately went all to hell.

The thing is, you don't deal with him. You leave, which is made easier because he already kicked you. If you liked the other players and you come across another game, feel free to invite them. But, he is just not worth it. There are other groups out there and better DMs that would like to have you at their table, virtual or otherwise.

[RoboEmperor]

I got kicked before I got any clarification about the subject. Literally, I typed "? confused", he typed "**** it" and kicked me.

He let us roll any character we want. The pelor guy happened to play the cleric because he just felt like it. He is very serious about roleplay and has absolutely no qualms with neutral characters using evil means to do good personally, its just that his character he rolled does. He later told me he regretted rolling such a square because one of our party mates that came before him was sort of evil and it was already causing friction.

We were talking about how the sorcerer demon master and the necromancer (all future builds we wanted to play) would cause party conflict, then he accused me of intentionally causing party conflict by going the demon route, then I rebutted that I didn't. I decided on this character from day 1 (i was here before the pelor guy joined). He house-ruled planar binding to be not free, and the captured creature can escape the magic circle despite the high DC for magic circle not because of balance reasons, but because there are "no free lunches". He's quoting some unknown book about a rogue galaxy hopper who talks about reducing the price of lunch but can never receive it for free, so when i decided to go down the lesser geas/necrotic tumor mind control route and he clammed up.

Anyways continuing the conversation (which didn't have the planar binding house rule talk), I asked the necromancer player that when he was designing his necromancer, did he consider the cleric, and he replied no, because he wanted to play a necromancer later in the game. So I have proven my point that none of us are intentionally causing party conflict, at which point he said that he takes party conflict really seriously, and I was joking about it (I wasn't), so i typed "? confused" to get him to clarify, and he kicked me. Again I emphasize that we were level 5 and we were leveling at a pace of 1 level per month.

I admit there was some friction with the planar binding thing, but he allows necrotic tumor mind controlled minions, handle animal minions, and undead minions, and demon/devil minions are no different at least until levels 16+, because 12hd beatstick outsiders aren't spectacular. He allowed a freaking trumpet archon summon that the party can use anytime the cleric deemed it was necessary (the cleric is level 4, not to mention the trumpet archon's stop time ability to talk), so I don't think this was the reason he kicked me for.

Oh and we weren't murder hobos. We had 1 guy acting like a idiot, whose player did an excellent job roleplaying his idiocy (suggested we punch dodgy priests until they confess that they're dodgy), but the "piss off NPC" moment was when the guy we were supposed to help acted all superior, pissed off his character, and the NPC attacked him first, but then he backed down because DM said the NPC will kill the whole party if he doesn't hand hold the party through this predicament.



That's not such a rare rule, although the part about consulting with others is just ridiculous. How the hell did the pioneers level up?

Yeah I was trying to point that out in a friendly debate, but now I'm not so sure if it was friendly.

edit: I did cite a lot of RAW, and whenever he said he's gonna house rule, I never spoke of the issue again. I was looking for a way to leave the group because this wasn't d&d, it was a horribly houseruled mess, but still, getting kicked by a person you don't respect leaves a very bad taste. My plan was that he'd smite me secretly somehow when I try the demon thing in the name of "no free lunch", and I'd leave, but that's a stupid plan because it involved me playing 5 months of a game I didn't like XD.

I'm not saying I am completely innocent and he's horrible. I'm just saying he's horrible, and how to get rid of this bad taste in my mouth? XD

[Honest Tiefling]

Oh and we weren't murder hobos. We had 1 guy acting like a idiot, whose player did an excellent job roleplaying his idiocy (suggested we punch dodgy priests until they confess that they're dodgy), but the "piss off NPC" moment was when the guy we were supposed to help acted all superior, pissed off his character, and the NPC attacked him first, but then he backed down because DM said the NPC will kill the whole party if he doesn't hand hold the party through this predicament.

If I understand this correctly, the NPC was acting all snotty, so the PC got pissed off. The NPC attacked the PC, because them's fighting words. How often did this sort of thing occur? Once is an encounter. Twice is a class of potentially psychotic people, or a culture that murders at the slightest provocation. More then that...Well...I doubt the DM is very good at DMing to be frank.

[Red Fel]

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Rejoice?

Seriously, this is a double-win. Not only have you gotten away from a bad DM, you've done so without having to navigate the personal conflict issues of removing yourself from a group. No need to burn bridges, no need to make excuses; you're a free agent.

Go out dancing or something. Celebrate.

[RoboEmperor]

If I understand this correctly, the NPC was acting all snotty, so the PC got pissed off. The NPC attacked the PC, because them's fighting words. How often did this sort of thing occur? Once is an encounter. Twice is a class of potentially psychotic people, or a culture that murders at the slightest provocation. More then that...Well...I doubt the DM is very good at DMing to be frank.

Twice so far. We started at level 4, now we're 5... so i guess 1 month of playing, 4 sessions, and twice.


Rejoice?

Seriously, this is a double-win. Not only have you gotten away from a bad DM, you've done so without having to navigate the personal conflict issues of removing yourself from a group. No need to burn bridges, no need to make excuses; you're a free agent.

Go out dancing or something. Celebrate.

He burnt the bridge, but yeah. I guess I'll go celebrate XD.

[ATHATH]

Maybe the Archons' ability to "stop time" was just the DM exploiting the "talking is a free action" rule?

[Deophaun]

No need to burn bridges...
Well, what else are you supposed to do with 'em?

[Âmesang]

Build witches out of 'em?

[Deophaun]

Build witches out of 'em?
That's one Internet for you, sir.

[atemu1234]

Twice so far. We started at level 4, now we're 5... so i guess 1 month of playing, 4 sessions, and twice.



He burnt the bridge, but yeah. I guess I'll go celebrate XD.

Yeah, sounds like this is mostly the DM's fault.

Well, you know what they say. One door closes, another opens. Maybe you should try your hand at DMing?

[Chronikoce]

I think it was likely mentioned but it sounds like your playstyle and his are not compatible at all.

For example, many of the things you listed would not bother me at all (though the archon thing sounds weird and I like at least a degree of logical consistency so npc's shouldn't be all sociopaths). In fact the current group I DM plays < 1/month and sometimes we have entire sessions with zero combat even being considered. They love it though so that's not a problem.

However, I used to DM another group that had a very different playstyle, they fell firmly into the murder it or pull shenanigans all session category. Which again, they loved which would be fine if I enjoyed it too. Instead we just sort of let that campaign die out.

Basically you either can deal with a play style or can't and that's not a knock against either of you. We all play this game to have fun and if you aren't having fun then it's time to find a different group whose gaming style more closely matches your desired results.

[Yahzi]

So this DM houserules like crazy.
That doesn't matter, as long as the rules are consistent and clear.


He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.
That is the sign of an awesome DM.


We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.
Letting any one player monopolize the game is clumsy, but not necessarily unforgivable, if you're all having fun.


What got me kicked abruptly was,
I'm guessing your general attitude, as expressed by your other issues, had a lot to do with it too.

In any case, the answer remains the same: when a bad DM kicks you from his bad game, you count your lucky stars and move on. Read some of the threads by people stuck in bad games for social reasons, and remind yourself that you are the lucky one.

[NichG]

The situation is already solved, so there's nothing to deal with. You did not like how this DM ran his game, he did not like how you participated in his game, now you're free to find a game that you will like, and he's free to find a player that he'll get along with better.

[RoboEmperor]

Sweet, although he blocked me on skype, we had past group conversations. I managed to get my last words in to the group before leaving every past group conversation we've had on skype. Hah!

I've calmed down and looked over the situation. The reason why he's a bad DM is not because he kicked me, but because he is an inflexible, selfish, "My way or the highway" railroading DM. A DM doesn't own a campaign, he is there to make sure everyone has a great time, just like a player is supposed to too.

The second reason why he's a bad DM is that if anything he can't handle comes up, he houserules it away.

We had a trollblooded fighter in our party, and he used dex damage poison to render him helpless, and then when we pointed out his creatures can't kill him because they don't have fire or acid, he got really, really angry, and homebrewed trollblooded's regeneration into fast healing after I calmed him down the next day.

The third reason why he's a bad DM is that he used d&d as guidelines and changed it all if he didn't like it. We were no longer playing d&d, we were playing some random d20 based system.

I kept my mouth shut about all these grievances I had, but since he kicked me abruptly and cut all communications, I'm thinking everyone here in this thread was right. He was waiting to kick me and pounced at the first moment he thought he could get away with. And yes! I got my grievances in that past group conversation. I feel a lot better now. It's amazing how delivering your angry letter makes you feel a hell of a lot better.

I guess my fault was not budging on the evil outsider issue. A good player would've decided to go a different route, but then again a good DM would've allowed my playstyle and trust that I wouldn't break the game. He wasn't denying me for balance reasons, he was denying me because of his weird obsession with some book about no free lunches. I mean, he allows necromancy and he allows mind controlling everything with necrotic tumors, so why not mind controlling outsiders especially since I promised him I wouldn't abuse it just like how the other guys promised not to abuse necromancy and the tumors?

Party conflict... what a dumb excuse. The pelor guy told me he would've retired the character and rolled a more lenient one so he wouldn't conflict with our player's necromancy and fiendish interests. By the way, our characters are not evil, we both explicitly said we'd be good necromancers/fiend masters.

Anyways... I guess what I learned from this encounter is....
1. DM has no experience with higher level games because all his games fell apart before level 12. RED FLAG!
2. DM houserules everything he can't handle because he is a total noob at the game. Even if I tell him how to handle something within RAW, he tells me to shut up. RED FLAG!
3. DM houserules not based on game balance, but because of his weird view on how the world should work based on weird books he's read. RED FLAG!
4. DM is not out to have a good time, but has OCD about telling his story. RED FLAG!

It's probably best for me to leave any future DM that exhibits any of one these behaviors immediately, so at least we can part on a good note and stay friends. I think the trumpet archon thing was just so he can feel all goodie about being an omnipotent entity saving our asses all the time.

[Chronikoce]

I'm going to be perfectly honest and note that your posts here do not make it sound like you are flexible to working together.

It sounds like you are interested in playing a game your way and if it's not fun for you then blame the DM.

Now that may not be the case but I would suggest you reflect on your own attitude as well as his and hopefully prevent future occur lances like this from happening.


Sweet, although he blocked me on skype, we had past group conversations. I managed to get my last words in to the group before leaving every past group conversation we've had on skype. Hah!


Most of the advise we gave was related to how leaving this group sounded just fine as your playstyles don't match but your post about having to get the last word in then leaving all groups sounds like behavior which I personally would not appreciate from any of my own players. Consider this, you were upset about your voice not being heard, so you posted an angry reply into the chat he still needs to use with his other players and left, thereby leaving him with no ability for his voice to be heard.

I'm not a Beacon of perfect behavior myself (I doubt any of us are) but sometimes it helps to realize we are all human and it's common that when unpleasant situations arise both parties likely had a roll to play in its generation.

[Honest Tiefling]

Wait, wait, wait, the house rules on trolls was to kill a player, not to help the party? Yeah, I think you're better off without this guy.


It's probably best for me to leave any future DM that exhibits any of one these behaviors immediately, so at least we can part on a good note and stay friends. I think the trumpet archon thing was just so he can feel all goodie about being an omnipotent entity saving our asses all the time.

Good gravy, no! Every DM starts off with railroading, nonsensical plots, over or under preparation. Even some experienced DMs make mistakes. The point you leave is when you realize that bringing up issues makes them angry or they dismiss it immediately. No one is perfect, and when you can't talk them into even recognizing why its impacting the groups' fun is when you leave.

[Chronikoce]

Good gravy, no! Every DM starts off with railroading, nonsensical plots, over or under preparation. Even some experienced DMs make mistakes. The point you leave is when you realize that bringing up issues makes them angry or they dismiss it immediately. No one is perfect, and when you can't talk them into even recognizing why its impacting the groups' fun is when you leave.

This is spot on. When I first started as a DM I was not very good at all. The only way I could improve was through constant dialogue with the group and learning from my mistakes.

If people just quit rather than try to have a discussion then nobody gets better and nobody gets to game. That's no fun at all.

[Ashtagon]

Build witches out of 'em?

But will they float?

[Gildedragon]

But will they float?

I dunno... Are they heavier or lighter than a duck?
(What happens when a duck gains levels in Witch?)
____________________________________

But on the matter at hand: Good Riddance.
Talk to the players, start your own game, don't let the (temporary) bruise to your ego (getting the boot stings) bleed into other games.
And if you ever want to play a fiend summoner/controller in a good party: remember the malconvoker

[LoyalPaladin]

No gaming > Bad gaming.
Exactly right. This doesn't sound like a game you want to be in anyways.

[RoboEmperor]

I'm going to be perfectly honest and note that your posts here do not make it sound like you are flexible to working together.

It sounds like you are interested in playing a game your way and if it's not fun for you then blame the DM.

Yeah, I'm inflexible on that one thing. It's the only reason I play d&d. If he flat out told me he didn't want a player binding outsiders I would have left the game and we'd still be friends. But he didn't. I'm not even sure if this is it though, he allows permanent minions, but just not fiends because of no free lunch? He's ok with necrotic tumors on every creature you fight but not on called outsiders?

It wasn't even a falling out. I thought we were having a friendly discussion with everyone in the group chat when he suddenly kicks me and cut all communication. I was left flabbergasted, along with the other players. We were going WTF JUST HAPPENED? Like I said we weren't even discussing that outsider thing either. We were talking about our plans for a necromancer a player wanted to play when suddenly he starts talking about party conflict.



Most of the advise we gave was related to how leaving this group sounded just fine as your playstyles don't match but your post about having to get the last word in then leaving all groups sounds like behavior which I personally would not appreciate from any of my own players. Consider this, you were upset about your voice not being heard, so you posted an angry reply into the chat he still needs to use with his other players and left, thereby leaving him with no ability for his voice to be heard.

You understand me. He did that to me first, I was not appreciating it, until I found that I can still post to past group calls, which is why I did it back to him.

[Kelb_Panthera]

XD. It kinda pisses me off, so let me rant a little :P

These things happen but let's take a look, just for funsies.


So this DM houserules like crazy. He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.

I don't want to call this a red flag but it's definitely an orange one, for my own taste anyway. There is precedent for effects like the horn produces but the trumpet archons themselves are a touch more powerful than they should be. I'm of the opinion that homebrew creatures should be created entirely from whole-cloth.

This one's really a taste thing, though, rather than a proper sign of a bad DM.


A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.

This is an official variant rule in the DMG. I don't like it but I -really- can't say its bad DM'ing. It's actually pretty common, as I understand it.


He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.

This is so common as to call normal. Nothing to see here.


His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.

Ewwwwwwww. Here be the rails, CHOO CHOO!!!


He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.

Kid gloves too. Blech.


We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.

This is mostly a taste thing. If it's -every- random towny you guys interact with or could theoretically interact with, say every time you go to buy rations or arrows or every inkeeper whenever you go to rest in town or something like that, it definitely becomes a case of too much of a good thing. Detailed and engaging roleplay is important but you don't do it with -every- rando and it's important to keep -all- the players engaged as much as you can.

I don't want to discount the possibility that you guys split the party in town (?), and might share -some- responsibility here, though.


What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

Seems like he definitely jumped the gun on this one. It also smacks just a bit of a power-trip since he didn't even give the players a chance to resolve this -potential- conflict out of character. Any word on whether he kicked the would-be necromancer too?


SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Probably wouldn't have gotten that far. I see some taste conflicts between me and this DM even from this small sampling of his style. After two sessions of unengaging play because town-side interactions with irrelevant characters were bringing the game to a crawl, I'd've probably walked, this appearing to be online play (kicked while typing suggests something like roll20 rather than being asked to leave someone's home in a pen and paper situation.)


Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.

Probably not. There's not a lot to see of the situation here just yet but it looks to me like a conflict in playstyle would've probably removed you from the group sooner or later, regardless of who chose for you to disengage. (The high-op stunt you were planning would've almost certainly been shut-down hard, regardless of the rules. At which point, you'd have quit on your own.)

Is he a good DM? I don't know but I see some red flags. I've seen a few from you in past conversations too, though, no offense. :smallsmile:

[qwertyu63]

Alright. A couple of your problems are a big deal; most don't seem that bad to me.


XD. It kinda pisses me off, so let me rant a little :P

So this DM houserules like crazy. He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.

Most DM's do houserule at least a little. A fair bit of rules bending should be expected.


A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.

Not a bad rule, makes thematic sense. Poorly applied maybe, I don't know.


He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.

As he should. Change the lore to fit the setting and story.


His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.

Now, this is an actual problem. That indicates a control problem.


He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.

...I actually like the sound of this rule. Might have to steal it.


We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.

Lack of combat: who cares? Not every session needs to have combat. Not every campaign needs to have combat. Slower, more RP based sessions, can be good.

Handling it one at a time: That's a problem. Pacing, man, do you speak it?


What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

Now that is messed up. This falls back onto the control issue mentioned above.


SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.

Do the other players agree the GM is bad? Then stage a coup and replace the GM.
If not, time to move on.

[Honest Tiefling]

Keep in mind the rule about regeneration was not for the benefit of the party, but to make it weaker. A character was given the troll race and mid-session the rules were changed to hurt the character. I think that changes the situation significantly because if the DM feared for balance, there are much more elegant and polite ways to go about it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Keep in mind the rule about regeneration was not for the benefit of the party, but to make it weaker. A character was given the troll race and mid-session the rules were changed to hurt the character. I think that changes the situation significantly because if the DM feared for balance, there are much more elegant and polite ways to go about it.

Didn't see that. Add that to my red flag count.



Okay, read the rest of the thread now. That guys a douche. Screw him. Move on and game on.

[RoboEmperor]

Is he a good DM? I don't know but I see some red flags. I've seen a few from you in past conversations too, though, no offense. :smallsmile:

Yeah, that's why those conversations don't leave this forum XD. Honestly, except for this one really high-OP campaign, all I do is stay behind a buffed bearded devil or succubus and have them whack stuff. Later its upgraded to Erinyes, Bebilith, Glabrezu, Barbed/Bone/Chain devil, Babau, Hezrou, or Vrock depending on how strong the party is. Sometimes I keep the succubus past 12+ if our party is mostly mundanes, other times it has to be a vrock because no one wants to play the big stupid fighter against level drainers and ability stat damagers, and vrocks are very tanky! While at the same time not being too tanky.



Seems like he definitely jumped the gun on this one. It also smacks just a bit of a power-trip since he didn't even give the players a chance to resolve this -potential- conflict out of character. Any word on whether he kicked the would-be necromancer too?

I honestly have no clue anymore. He said he was gonna talk with the guy to work out his character, but I don't know. If he truly kicked me for causing "party conflict" in the future then he would most likely say no to the character, or force a necromancer that doesn't create undead.



Probably wouldn't have gotten that far. I see some taste conflicts between me and this DM even from this small sampling of his style. After two sessions of unengaging play because town-side interactions with irrelevant characters were bringing the game to a crawl, I'd've probably walked, this appearing to be online play (kicked while typing suggests something like roll20 rather than being asked to leave someone's home in a pen and paper situation.)

Yes it was online play, and yes, I agree. I always thought walking was rude so I stick to it thinking the other guy isn't an a******. Not anymore, I'm gonna walk the moment I stop respecting the DM. At least when I walk I do it politely and try to leave on good terms.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, that's why those conversations don't leave this forum XD. Honestly, except for this one really high-OP campaign, all I do is stay behind a buffed bearded devil or succubus and have them whack stuff. Later its upgraded to Erinyes, Bebilith, Glabrezu, Barbed/Bone/Chain devil, Babau, Hezrou, or Vrock depending on how strong the party is. Sometimes I keep the succubus past 12+ if our party is mostly mundanes, other times it has to be a vrock because no one wants to play the big stupid fighter against level drainers and ability stat damagers, and vrocks are very tanky!

Have you ever considered just playing a demon? If you can find a -good- DM, you might be able to talk him into letting you start as a quasit or something at level 3 and then evolve, pokemon style, when you reach the level of the next demon in the chain you want to play. Seems to me like that could be a fun thing.



I honestly have no clue anymore. He said he was gonna talk with the guy to work out his character, but I don't know. If he truly kicked me for causing "party conflict" in the future then he would most likely say no to the character, or force a necromancer that doesn't create undead.

Who knows. I'm inclined to doubt it now that I've read the whole thread. Unless they'd been playing together for a good while he probably kicked him right behind you and if they have, he probably -still- forced him to drop the character. There are plenty of "no evil" DM's out there too, ones that think that no one can do evil well or that players who want to play evil just want to troll or some other bull like that.


Yes it was online play, and yes, I agree. I always thought walking was rude so I stick to it thinking the other guy isn't an a******. Not anymore, I'm gonna walk the moment I stop respecting the DM. At least when I walk I do it politely and try to leave on good terms.

You've got to have -some- patience when dealing with strangers on the internet. If you find you don't trust and/or respect the DM at least somewhat it's not likely you're going to have a very good time in his game, though. You need to give newbs a bit of leeway too.

[RoboEmperor]

Have you ever considered just playing a demon? If you can find a -good- DM, you might be able to talk him into letting you start as a quasit or something at level 3 and then evolve, pokemon style, when you reach the level of the next demon in the chain you want to play. Seems to me like that could be a fun thing.

Went down that route, and too much hassle with LA:"-" rules. If we only look at CR or HD, yeah it could work, but those goddamn LA rules... XD

[Honest Tiefling]

Sounds like someone needs some Savage Progression classes. Has to be a demon in there you like.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Went down that route, and too much hassle with LA:"-" rules. If we only look at CR or HD, yeah it could work, but those goddamn LA rules... XD

LA isn't as bad as the rep' it gets. It's awful for casters because -any- loss of casting progression is bad for them but it's otherwise not really a big deal. Most of the time it's just an issue of being a point or two off of where the abilities of the creature warrant it being, something a good DM could easily be flexible on.

As for the issue of "LA; -" creatures, that's what the Savage Species guidelines for LA estimation are for. I'm sure a clever DM could work with you to find a way to make it work.

[RoboEmperor]

Thanks Honest Tiefling and Kelb Panthera. I'll look into those.

[Eisfalken]

DM sounds like a piece of garbage, and his campaign sounds like even worse garbage. Arbitrary reverse-engineering houserules to weaken players, attempts to force certain kinds of behavior, draconian oversight of any player's choice for their character? No thank you.

Your only problem is that you put up with his crap as long as you did. You need to learn to be more assertive. There will be other, better DMs. I promise you.

[gogogome]

I'm sorry you had to go through all that. That's why I try to stick to RAW as close as possible.

Some DMs write a crappy story with one protagonist, and wants to live that story, so they make an adventure with too many NPC companions who are the protagonists of his story and make all the party decisions.

Although that doesn't seem to be the case in this scenario, you should always avoid all DMs interested in telling a story unless they specifically say they won't turn it into a houseruled mess.

Knowledge of DM's experience is mandatory. If he is someone who never played high level adventures as a player, but is planning to DM one, then be very observant. Either he will trust you on how the spell works, or he will freak out like this DM. If you notice he is the latter, bail on the game as soon as possible. These types of people are selfish railroading DMs that will force only the standard style of play on you, at which point pathfinder is better.

[Ashtagon]

Okay, serious item by item response...



XD. It kinda pisses me off, so let me rant a little :P


So this DM houserules like crazy. He creates a trumpet that calls trumpet archons and those archons can stop time and talk telepathically all in the name of story.

Unique magic item that summons archons - cool. New special powers for archons - as long as its exposition-only, fair enough, if a bit awkward. I'd rather that it happened during a bit of non-combat time though.


A leveled up character requires 1 week of consulting with others to level up, even if that character is a sorcerer with eschew materials, or a barbarian that just slain 3 apes by himself, because for some reason, the barbarian requires consulting with his peers to learn.

It's a common enough houserule, at least for pre-'name' level (before 10th).


He threw out all d&d lore to make up his own for every creature.

World-building is good. Better is for him to let the players know that the default lore is not in operation, and give them primers in the 'common knowledge' their characters should know.


His cities were packed with characters severely stronger than player characters, so if anyone disrespected an NPC it was death.

This is a poor way to solve the urban murder-hobo problem. It should really e solved by organised law enforcement and a social agreement between DM and players to be involved in the quest rather than being murder-hobos out to wreak civilisation.


He ruled creatures with regeneration can be killed with coup de grace even if that weapon cannot deal lethal damage just because he thinks it's stupid that you can't kill a troll with just a sword.

If this was known about at the start, before it became relevant, fair enough. From other comments, I understand that was not the case, so bad DM.


We often went 2 sessions in a row with 0 combat because he likes to roleplay with 1 guy at a time in town, making 3 of us twiddle our thumbs 3/4s of a once a week session.

Going without combat is not necessarily bad. Going without meaningful things for one or more players who are present to do is always bad.


What got me kicked abruptly was, my character was planning on mind controlling demons and devils with lesser geas at level 10 (we were level 5, so that's like months away), another player was planning a necromancer as a backup character he was gonna swap in at level 8, and we had a cleric playing like a paladin of pelor. We were discussing how at level 10 my sorcerer would start party conflict and at level 8 the necromancer would too. Then the discussion sidetracked to when we were creating our characters we don't consider the cleric because we make characters based on what we want to do in a game, then he said he takes party conflict very seriously in his games and i was making a joke of it, and that he won't let one player ruin the experience for everyone else, and when I typed "? confused :s" he just kicked me, before I could ask for clarification.

Personally, I don't like PvP conflict in my games, but each to their own. THe GM should just have been like "That is not a thing I want to see happen at my table. Joke about it if you like, but if you do it, you're out." Kicking you for making a joke is a bit of a bad GM move.


Just to be clear, the player playing the cleric of pelor had no qualms about anything. I contacted him again after getting kicked and he was like going "wtf happened?" too, and he had no problems rolling a new more compatible character. The other 2 players also had no problem with me either, they were too busy with their own thing.

SO ANYWAYS? How do you guys deal with a bad DM kicking you abruptly? It kind of pisses me off that I didn't break it off earlier.

Or am I the bad guy here? o_o.

I think the GM saved you from having to make polite excuses to leave what was obviously a badly-run game.