The Myrmidarch Redeemed [Optimization]

[Psyren]

For years, the Myrmidarch Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch) archetype was our only "ranged magus" option, but it came at a steep cost - diminshed spellcasting, no spell recall, no improved/greater spell combat, no knowledge pool, losing a whopping half of your arcana, and losing your capstone in favor of the generally awful Armor Mastery feature. And ever since the far better Eldritch Archer appeared in HotS, it seemed the Myrmidarch was doomed to obscurity.

However, Myrmidarch did gain a couple of things that we dismissed at the time - Weapon Training (+3), Armor Training (+2), and the ability to treat all 20 of its levels as fighter levels for prerequisites (rather than half.) And now that both Weapon Master's Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook have been released, we have a plethora of options to use on these features. Even Armor Mastery has something going for it now.

Given all the cool Advanced Weapon Training, Advanced Armor Training, and Mastery options that have come out in these books, what sorts of nice things can we give a Myrmidarch build, either ranged or melee? Are there any particularly interesting spell or arcana combinations with these abilities? Can we make a Myrmidarch that holds his own with a basic magus, or with an Eldritch Archer now?

(AWT options are here (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/AdvWeaponTraining.aspx); AAT options look to not be uploaded yet.)

[NightbringerGGZ]

1. Myrmidarch is able to use both ranged spell strike and standard spell strike, so the build should be considered as a switch hitter. It is worth considering picking up both Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage so you can apply the benefits to both Shocking Grasp and Snowball.

2. The loss of Spell Recall can be managed via Pearls of Power to some extant. Level 1 PoPs are cheap enough to let you burn all your 1st level spells on every combat, though I would note the diminished spell casting will hurt the build here to some extent. This is especially true during early levels if you're trying to prep both melee and ranged touch attack spells.

3. Reach Spellstrike and Distant Spellstrike are both good options for this build. Switch-hitting gets easier at level 9 if you can just prep Shocking Grasp.

4. You will probably want to use feats for AWT and AAT options, though I would note you have Fighter levels of Magus - 3 when qualifying for feats. Trained Grace is an obvious contender if you don't plan on using Dervish Dance. I'm going to bump up my rating of Abundant Tactics fairly soon as feats like Barroom Brawler (pick a feat to use for 1 minute) or Perfect Strike become much more interesting with that ability. Focused Weapon could be very interesting as well. Really though, the AWT damage boosts (especially with gloves of Dueling) are going to be the significant factors. Armored Juggernaut isn't bad if you plan on using heavy armor. Especially since you can use magic to boost your mobility while in heavy armor.

5. It would be interesting to crunch numbers on a Dagger build, with a thrown weapons switch-hitter. Focused Weapon at level 7 and either Trained Grace or Trained Throw after you get your Gloves of Dueling. The build would be feat intensive.

6. You also have access to Weapon Mastery, Armor Mastery and Shield Mastery feats. Burrowing Shot is one of my favorite options for a bow build, though it does compete with your other Swift Actions. Ranged Trip and Ace Trip are also nice options.

[Florian]

Going for ranged AoO with Daggers and the whole fighter anti-caster feats sounds promissing, too.

[Psyren]

1. Myrmidarch is able to use both ranged spell strike and standard spell strike, so the build should be considered as a switch hitter. It is worth considering picking up both Wayang Spell Hunter and Magical Lineage so you can apply the benefits to both Shocking Grasp and Snowball.

Excellent suggestion, and given the bonus feats you get, Extra Traits may not be a bad choice either so you can grab the more typical stuff like Reactionary too.



2. The loss of Spell Recall can be managed via Pearls of Power to some extant. Level 1 PoPs are cheap enough to let you burn all your 1st level spells on every combat, though I would note the diminished spell casting will hurt the build here to some extent. This is especially true during early levels if you're trying to prep both melee and ranged touch attack spells.

Indeed, Pearls are cheap. Perhaps a crafting subfocus so you can churn out your own?



4. You will probably want to use feats for AWT and AAT options, though I would note you have Fighter levels of Magus - 3 when qualifying for feats. Trained Grace is an obvious contender if you don't plan on using Dervish Dance. I'm going to bump up my rating of Abundant Tactics fairly soon as feats like Barroom Brawler (pick a feat to use for 1 minute) or Perfect Strike become much more interesting with that ability. Focused Weapon could be very interesting as well. Really though, the AWT damage boosts (especially with gloves of Dueling) are going to be the significant factors. Armored Juggernaut isn't bad if you plan on using heavy armor. Especially since you can use magic to boost your mobility while in heavy armor.

Actually, you're only Fighter -3 at 7th. When you hit 10th (i.e. when a normal magus would get Fighter Training) your entire magus level becomes a fighter level, perfect for grabbing more AWT/AAT options, as well as other goodies like Spellbreaker.

You raise a good point - given that many of the AWT options function off your weapon training bonus, you may want to leave that at +3 and pick them up via the feat instead, particularly since you qualify. Would VMC Fighter increase your WT/AT bonus?

Also, I completely forgot Gloves of Dueling! Excellent addition :smallsmile:


Going for ranged AoO with Daggers and the whole fighter anti-caster feats sounds promissing, too.

You mean like Overwatch Style?

[Serafina]

First step:
Heavily consider Fighter Variant Multiclassing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Core-Classes).
It gives Bravery, +2 levels of weapon training and +2 levels of armor training. It should stack just fine, since it's just a straight-scaling class feature comparable to sneak attack.

Bravery specifically can be turned very useful these days.
The Armed Bravery Advanced Weapon Training just applies it to all Will-saves. This can basically translate into +5 to Will-saves on a class that already has a good Will-save, for the Myrmidarch.
The Improved Bravery feat only applies it against mind-affecting effects (no stacking with the above).
The social Bravery feat allows you to apply your bonus against Intimidation, Feint and Diplomacy, as well as to Bluff and Intimidate.
The Inspiring Bravery feat allows you to share your Bravery-bonus (including the one from Improved and Social Bravery) in a 30 foot aura.
The Courage in a Bottle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/courage-in-a-bottle) feat increases your bravery-bonus by +2, if you are intoxicated.
Quick Study doesn't directly improve bravery, but it's a feat that basically gives a somewhat flexible combat feat, which can be nice.

Two levels of weapon training are nothing to scoff at, given that most Advanced Weapon Training features scale with your weapon training bonus.
Most noteworthy is that the Weapon Specialist AWT would give you two more feats with this - reducing the loss of feats from the VMC to 3, while still leaving you with one extra pick for AWT.
Fighters Reflexes just adds your WTB to your Reflex save, which would conclude in a +5 bonus to Reflex saves.
Trained Grace offers a more suitable alternative for Weapon Finesse - at high level, it'd effectively add +7 to damage if you go for Two-Weapon Fighting without Dex-to-Damage (and getting 12 Strength or so is easy and cheap, so it'd be even more damage).
Trained Initiative is just +Initiative equal to your WTB bonus, so up to +7 again.

I can't comment on Advanced Armor Training yet, but hey, it's additional stuff.

[Florian]

You mean like Overwatch Style?

Snap Shot, actually. No need to sacrifice your actions for Overwatch Style.

[NightbringerGGZ]

@Psyren - Good catch. That'll teach me to skim.

Fighter VMC is an interesting wrinkle. Bravery is quite good with the right AWT and feat options. I agree that the weapon training and armor training bonuses would stack, so that's Armor Training at levels 7, 8, 14 and 15 and Weapon Training at levels 6, 11, 12, 18 and 19. Note that when you trade away weapon training for AAT you don't gain new weapon groups but your attack and damage bonuses will still scale. Magus only gains 3 bonus feats but Armor Training and Weapon Training can be traded directly for feats or options that are better than feats.

Let's look at a potential human build. We want high dexterity for our ranged attacks, so we'll plan on using Weapon Finesse as well. I'm going to plan on using the bow during opening rounds of combat mostly, switching to melee after an enemy closes in. With this strategy in mind, the standard archer build is thrown out the window.

STR: 14, DEX: 18, CON: 12, INT: 15, WIS: 10, CHA: 7

LV 1 - Weapon Finesse, Additional Traits or Arcane Strike
LV 3 - Figher VMC (Bravery)
LV 5 - Intensify Spell, Power Attack
LV 6 - Weapon Training (melee weapon group)
LV 7 - Fighter VMC (Armor Training)
LV 8 - AAT Option or Armor Training 2
LV 9 - AWT: Finesse Training via feat
LV 11 - Fighter VMC (Weapon Training) - Either gain weapon training with bows or AWT option

That's starting to look like a pretty viable build. At level 11 you spent your first round of combat to cast Scorching Ray, launching a ray with each arrow. That should get the attention of some foes, and if they can't reach you by round 2, repeat the tactic. Rounds 3+ of combat you switch to your melee weapon. With gloves of Dueling you'll be getting +4 attack, +8 damage on those melee attacks. If your GM lets you use pre-errata versions of the swashbuckling arcana you could be putting out some insane melee damage.

[Serafina]

I know it's high-end and won't see play in most games, but for those who like this sort of things, a level 20 build:

Weapon Training +5 (and +2 with Gloves of Dueling).
Armor Training +5.
Bravery +5.
5 feats from character levels, 3 feats from magus levels, 1 from human.
three Magus Arcana

We get four picks for AWT automatically, and could make up to four more via feats if needed. We also get that many picks for AAT, but I don't have the options yet.
Pick Trained Throw, Trained Initiative, Fighters Reflexes and Weapon Specialist for your AWT. This gives +7 to damage on thrown attacks, as well as +7 to Reflex saves and +5 to Will Saves.

Weapon Specialist gives us 5 feats that require you to pick a specific weapon. Weapon Focus and any feat that requires it as a prerequisite qualify.
We pick Weapon Focus (our chosen thrown weapon), Close-Quarters Thrower, Snap Shot, Improved Snap Shot and Weapon Specialization with this.

For our feats, we take Point-Blank Shot, Quick Draw and Ricochet Toss to get our weapon back automatically, as well as Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot to ignore concealment. We also take Disruptive and Spellbreaker to take advantage of Snap Shot, and augment that with Combat Reflexes. We need Rapid Shot to take Snap Shot in the first place, so now we've spent all our feats.
However, if we want to we can gain Disruptive and/or Spellbreaker via Magus Arcana to open up some feats, and this can also be spent on AWT. At this level, Focused Weapon can be interesting for it increases the damage of any weapon to 2D8.

As a weapon we can pick any martial weapon that can be thrown really, though as usual a good crit-range is recommended so just some daggers work.


This is overall a pretty strong anti-caster thrown weapon build. It threatens with a 10-foot range, and casters can't cast defensively in that area. The thrown weapon is automatically drawn at the start of combat, and always returns to the Myrmidarch. The character should also have a really high reflex-save (+6 from class, +7 from AWT, high dexterity) and a really good will-save (+12 from class, +5 from bravery) along with the good fortitude save the magus gets.

And you can actually get most of that online far earlier. At level 12 you already get 3 feats from class, 2 from magus, 1 from race and can get spellbreaker via arcana. Your AWT bonus is also +3, so you can get three feats (Weapon Focus, Close-Quarters Thrower, Snap Shot) from that as well.

[Kurald Galain]

I've not found anything particularly useful for Weapon Training, nor for fighter feats (except the critical line of feats, but frankly those tend to be overkill). I'd be interested in seeing what Armor Training adds, though.


1. Myrmidarch is able to use both ranged spell strike and standard spell strike, so the build should be considered as a switch hitter.
That's not specific to the myrm, though. Every Magus is a switch hitter by default, and non-myrms tend to be better at it.


2. The loss of Spell Recall can be managed via Pearls of Power to some extant.
Yep. Spell recall isn't important to a Magus. Improved SR, perhaps, but the basic one is not a big deal.


3. Reach Spellstrike and Distant Spellstrike are both good options for this build.
Reach spellstrike is pretty much mandatory for the myrm or eldritch archer (although its high level prereq makes that problematic). Distant spellstrike is pointless; by the time you have that level, the range of your spells is far enough that you don't need it.

[NightbringerGGZ]

That's not specific to the myrm, though. Every Magus is a switch hitter by default, and non-myrms tend to be better at it.

Well, I guess technically every melee character should be carrying a bow around. I was referring to the Ranged Spellstrike ability the Myrm gets at level 4 though, which allows you to make a weapon attack along with the spell. Yes this isn't as good as what an Eldritch Archer can pull off but its a bit better than a standard Magus hanging back and just casting a ranged spell.


Distant spellstrike is pointless; by the time you have that level, the range of your spells is far enough that you don't need it.

Distant Spellstrike is used to increase the range of melee touch attacks that you're delivering via Ranged Spellstrike. Remember that they will only work at a close range (55 feet at level 12). Being able to deliver a Vampiric Touch from up to 550 feet away is kinda nice. Alternatively, an Intensified Shocking Grasp nicely counters range increment penalties against armored targets. So the default range on that will be 220 feet. And if you're using Snowball as your bread & butter spell, remember that it is also restricted to close range.

It isn't mandatory, but it is nice.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes this isn't as good as what an Eldritch Archer can pull off but its a bit better than a standard Magus hanging back and just casting a ranged spell.
It's substantially worse, actually. The regular ranged spell is a touch attack against multiple targets, the ranged spellstrike is neither of those.


Distant Spellstrike is used to increase the range of melee touch attacks that you're delivering via Ranged Spellstrike.
Yes, I can read that. The question is, how often do you have combat that starts at a 200' range and that has a clear line of shot for 200'. The answer is basically "never", hence DS is not worth the slot.

[Kurald Galain]

For years, the Myrmidarch Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/myrmidarch) archetype was our only "ranged magus" option, but it came at a steep cost
Well, the biggest problem with myrm is that spell combat requires a melee weapon. You'll need Eldritch Archer to overcome that particular drawback.

The Card Caster has the same issue, but at least it can attach melee spells to thrown weapons, and it doesn't get diminished spellcasting.

Finally, note that you can use the Martial Focus feat to gain weapon training, whereas the myrm pays several arcana slots (which are equivalent to feats) for that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That feat only works for the purposes of Weapon Mastery feats, of which few are really good for magus. I think that the Armor Mastery feats, though, are a bit better investment; Ironclad Reactions could be useful, depending on how many AoOs you're taking. Sprightly Armor is a good late-game boost for Dex magus, with Secured Armor being slightly less useful, but hey, it stacks with light and moderate fortification armor! Even a few of the shield mastery feats are worth investing in, though for a myrmidarch it may not be worth the feats required, though it would be easy for them to qualify for Unhindering Shield earlier than other magi.

[Kurald Galain]

That feat only works for the purposes of Weapon Mastery feats.

Indeed, it's only a partial solution. But the question is, what weapon training options are actually useful on a Magus? So far I haven't seen any good choices for that, only the implication that there might be something there.

[Sayt]

First step:
Most noteworthy is that the Weapon Specialist AWT would give you two more feats with this - reducing the loss of feats from the VMC to 3, while still leaving you with one extra pick for AWT.

I might be reading Weapon Specialist Wrong, but my understanding is that it doesn't give you feats, it let you expand a specific weapon choice into being every choice available in that weapon group turn, say, "Weapon Focus (Longsword)" Into "Weapon Training (Heavy Blades)", so long as you already have "Weapon Focus (Longsword)"

Honestly I don't see this as being too great, unless you're also planning on taking Combat Competency to shift from a Longsword to a Falcata as you level up, and keep your WF/WS feats, but...honestly I'd just grab the ioun stone or grab the feat

[Serafina]

I might be reading Weapon Specialist Wrong, but my understanding is that it doesn't give you feats, it let you expand a specific weapon choice into being every choice available in that weapon group turn, say, "Weapon Focus (Longsword)" Into "Weapon Training (Heavy Blades)", so long as you already have "Weapon Focus (Longsword)"

Honestly I don't see this as being too great, unless you're also planning on taking Combat Competency to shift from a Longsword to a Falcata as you level up, and keep your WF/WS feats, but...honestly I'd just grab the ioun stone or grab the featYou're right, I am stupid, and that makes it far, far less appealing.
My bad.

[Florian]

You're right, I am stupid, and that makes it far, far less appealing.
My bad.

Weapon Specialist still has a lot of appeal, especially in random loot mega-dungeons where shopping is not a thing.

[Kurald Galain]

When you hit 10th (i.e. when a normal magus would get Fighter Training) your entire magus level becomes a fighter level, perfect for grabbing more AWT/AAT options, as well as other goodies like Spellbreaker.
The Magus can already grab Spellbreaker at level 9 regardless of fighter levels, since he has an arcana for that.


Weapon Specialist still has a lot of appeal, especially in random loot mega-dungeons where shopping is not a thing.
But what feats would you use it with, then? Weapon focus is not exactly a big deal.

[Florian]

But what feats would you use it with, then? Weapon focus is not exactly a big deal.

I actually enjoy playing pure Fighters, mostly going the TWF-SnB route. I mostly stick with the "Blades, Heavy" and "Close" weapon groups, picking WepFocus/WepSpec for "Close" first, "Blades, Heavy" second.

With the updated Fighter Weapon Groups in Ultimate Equipment, Weapon Specialist gives broad range of options on what weapon to use at a time, making it possible to switch from SnB to Nodachi without losing any feats or switching Shield to Punching Dagger when more opportune this way.

[Kurald Galain]

I actually enjoy playing pure Fighters, mostly going the TWF-SnB route. I mostly stick with the "Blades, Heavy" and "Close" weapon groups, picking WepFocus/WepSpec for "Close" first, "Blades, Heavy" second.

With the updated Fighter Weapon Groups in Ultimate Equipment, Weapon Specialist gives broad range of options on what weapon to use at a time, making it possible to switch from SnB to Nodachi without losing any feats or switching Shield to Punching Dagger when more opportune this way.

Since you didn't mention any good feats to use it with, I take it that there aren't any.

[Florian]

Since you didn't mention any good feats to use it with, I take it that there aren't any.

What is a "good" feat in this context? TWF gives penalties, the feats alleviate those penalties, that´s good in my opinion.

[Psyren]

Well, the biggest problem with myrm is that spell combat requires a melee weapon. You'll need Eldritch Archer to overcome that particular drawback.

You don't need spell combat. Take one hand off your bow, cast the ranged spell normally, and then use ranged spellstrike (not an action) to deliver it along with your arrow.
In other words, Ranged Spellstrike replaces the "free attack" part of a ranged touch attack spell like a ray - not the "spell" part.

If you want to full-attack instead, use a thrown melee weapon, like a dagger. It doesn't stop being a melee weapon just because you're not using it to melee. Grab a Blinkback Belt and you can throw one dagger as often as you want during a full-attack.



Finally, note that you can use the Martial Focus feat to gain weapon training, whereas the myrm pays several arcana slots (which are equivalent to feats) for that.

It trades 3 arcana for 3 AWT and 2 AAT. It also gets its full magus level as a fighter level, getting you access to fighter feats other magi can't pick up (like Shatterspell, Pin Down and Critical Versatility/Mastery.)

Martial Focus meanwhile has the drawback that it doesn't give you a WT bonus, which is needed to fuel many of the AWT options, such as Abundant Tactics and Fighter's Reflexes.

A good use for either the AWT or AAT (or both) is Versatile/Adaptable Training. Grabbing one of each will effectively give your Magus 4+Int skills, as well as adding multiple new skills to their class list (e.g. Perception, Acrobatics, Escape Artist.) In other words, not only do you automatically get full ranks, you also get the class skill bonus.

Another good AAT option is Unhindering Shield, which will let you use a buckler while still being able to Spell Combat - another source of AC and enhancements.

[Kurald Galain]

You don't need spell combat. Take one hand off your bow, cast the ranged spell normally, and then use ranged spellstrike (not an action) to deliver it along with your arrow.
In other words, Ranged Spellstrike replaces the "free attack" part of a ranged touch attack spell like a ray - not the "spell" part.
Yes, but this negates the powerful action economy advantage that the Magus normally gets from spell combat.

Simply put, doing a full attack and casting a ranged spell the normal way is a much better choice than only casting one spell and attaching it to a single ranged attack.


If you want to full-attack instead, use a thrown melee weapon, like a dagger. It doesn't stop being a melee weapon just because you're not using it to melee. Grab a Blinkback Belt and you can throw one dagger as often as you want during a full-attack.
Isn't it funny that the best option for a "bow magus" is to not use a bow?

Aside from that, this runs into the two issues that (1) short-range spells already have a better range than daggers, and (2) the Card Caster archetype does a better job at this.

Basically, ranged spellstrike is a trap. It's an option that looks cool, but if you read all the fine print it's strictly inferior to your other options.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Yes, I can read that. The question is, how often do you have combat that starts at a 200' range and that has a clear line of shot for 200'. The answer is basically "never", hence DS is not worth the slot.

That may be your gaming experience, but it sure isn't mine. As a player I've had fights that took place on and in a rather long train that spanned its whole length, airship versus airship combat, a battle where we air dropped into a fortress, frequent battles that involve moving up or down steep mountain sides and battles on large open plains.

As a GM I've had a Ranger who took a pot shot at a villain (on a raised plinth) from maximum range and with a lucky crit took the enemy out. My Skull and Shackles game features ship to shop combat, which often starts out quite a bit of range. I'm running Kingmaker right now, and I've created large maps for every Hex the players move into. By the very nature of this campaign they have tons of large open areas to fight.

So no, it isn't something you'll "never" use. I'll grant that you won't use the option in every single combat, but so long as your campaign isn't 100% dungeon delving you can find plenty of uses for it.



Finally, note that you can use the Martial Focus feat to gain weapon training, whereas the myrm pays several arcana slots (which are equivalent to feats) for that.

Just to clarify, Martial Focus grants a +1 damage bonus for weapons in a particular weapon group and counts as having weapon training only for weapon mastery feat prerequisites. Armor focus is a similar option for the armor mastery feats as is Improved Shield Focus. None of these options grant you the weapon training or armor training class features.


I do agree that a dedicated archer build on a Myrmidarch isn't worth going for. Ranged Spellstrike is basically only useful for an opening move, when you're too far away from the enemy to get a full attack in. In this scenario the main benefit is simply adding your weapon damage to the attack, though I'd note that with full weapon training gaining a +7 to attack and damage is significant (assuming VMC Fighter). You're basically trading away the better action economy for stronger normal attacks, making this similar to playing a Kensai.

The potential numbers on a thrown weapon build leads are attractive though. AWT: Trained Throw doubles the damage bonus from thrown weapons when using Strength for damage and Dexterity for attacks. You can then fit in the Startoss Style feats, which grant +2 damage per feat but also let you bounce your thrown weapon among enemies. At a minimum that's +4 attack, +14 damage on those normal attacks. You can't use Startoss Comet or Shower with Spell Combat, which is unfortunate, but you could potentially deliver those "held touch attack" spells. Chill Touch works nicely for instance (with Ranged Spell Strike).

For the build to work you need Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, Startoss Style, Startoss Comet, Startoss Shower and BAB 4. If you're starting at level 1 you want to skip the VMC option so you can have Statoss Comet at level 5 (allowing for 2 attacks in every round of combat) and Startoss Shower at Level 7. Up to this point an Eldritch Archer can pull off the builds just as well, but with AWT options coming online from level 9 and up things start to differ. Here are the following options that this build would like:

Focused Weapon - Your thrown weapon's damage will advance like a War Priest's weapon. Advance that 1d4 dagger dice to a 2d6 by level 15. Combo that with Vital Strike and Startoss Comet, for a huge initial hit on target 1 and then additional attacks on further targets.

Trained Throw - Effectively +4 damage with your thrown weapons, assuming Gloves of Dueling are worked into your build.

Abundant Tactics - Combine this with the Barroom Brawler feat and you now emulate the Martial Mastery class feature 5 times per day.

[Sayt]

You're right, I am stupid, and that makes it far, far less appealing.
My bad.
Eh, it's not a greatly written ability, it teases out what it does over three sentences. Concise, it is not.


Weapon Specialist still has a lot of appeal, especially in random loot mega-dungeons where shopping is not a thing.
Or if you're the person who gets the Adventure path's Plotsword (Both Kingmaker and Jade Regent have one), and AP's don't always have an abundance of time to retrain.

It really isn't one of the better AWTs, but it has a niche. I personally quite like the idea of taking an Elven Curve Blade or Estoc to use trained grace for double Weapon training, and get 3:1 power attack.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Ya. We may very well be better off not trying to go for a ranged build and just consider Ranged Spellstrike as something you only make occasional use of. As a pure melee build Myrmidarch has ALOT to offer and with fewer feats VMC Fighter is more attractive.

[Florian]

Ya. We may very well be better off not trying to go for a ranged build and just consider Ranged Spellstrike as something you only make occasional use of. As a pure melee build Myrmidarch has ALOT to offer and with fewer feats VMC Fighter is more attractive.

I think the problem here is overly focusing on pure DPR for ranged spellstrike. It'd be interesting to see if other useful option come up, like debuffing or control.

[Kurald Galain]

I think the problem here is overly focusing on pure DPR for ranged spellstrike. It'd be interesting to see if other useful option come up, like debuffing or control.

Why on earth would you want to attach a debuff or control spell to an arrow?

[NightbringerGGZ]

I think the problem here is overly focusing on pure DPR for ranged spellstrike. It'd be interesting to see if other useful option come up, like debuffing or control.

You mean something other than sheer raw damage output? What heresy is this?

[Psyren]

Yes, but this negates the powerful action economy advantage that the Magus normally gets from spell combat.

Simply put, doing a full attack and casting a ranged spell the normal way is a much better choice than only casting one spell and attaching it to a single ranged attack.

As you yourself noted, the bulk of a magus' damage comes from spellstrike. A full-attack along with that is nice to have, but overall fairly negligible because they lack a bonus damage mechanic (no Sneak Attack, no Favored Enemy, no Bane/Judgement etc). So those other two 1d8 arrows you'd be firing at ECL 15 aren't going to amount to much in the grand scheme of things, not to mention that firing them keeps you from moving.

Undoubtedly, if all you want is spellstrike at range, EA is superior - but it gives up melee spellstrike (and melee spell combat for that matter) to do so. Myrmidarch is capable of both.

And finally, the part you're being so dismissive of - delivering ranged spells through arrows - may not come up in your games, but I've been in long-range combats. Many monsters and mounted humanoids can charge you from well outside of spellcasting range, and many enemy archers can open fire from outside of spell range too, and terrain or other hazards can make getting into range impractical. But nailing an archer with Mudball or zapping their mount with Ray of Exhaustion from across the battlefield can quickly give your side an early advantage, and you don't even need metamagic to do it.


Isn't it funny that the best option for a "bow magus" is to not use a bow?

And that's your mistake - Myrmidarch isn't a "bow magus." It was merely thought of that way erroneously because it was the only option to be that for a long time. Rather, Myrmidarch is a "fighter magus" - and like any well-built fighter, it can perform competently at both melee and range. Note that it has both melee and ranged spellstrike. Even the archetype blurb calls this out - it's meant to be an all-rounder that supplements its martial prowess with magic rather than being a pure hybrid.



Aside from that, this runs into the two issues that (1) short-range spells already have a better range than daggers, and (2) the Card Caster archetype does a better job at this.

The point of Myrmidarch is to be a magus that can still use its magic, but is also capable of holding its own better when spells are less of an option - campaigns with high numbers of combat encounters per day and no magic-mart, for example, and/or campaigns with enemies that are more capable of countering/resisting spell attacks. These aren't out of the realm of possibility. Card Caster won't do nearly as well there because cards (read: darts) are abysmal damage dealers without copious magic backing them up.



Basically, ranged spellstrike is a trap. It's an option that looks cool, but if you read all the fine print it's strictly inferior to your other options.

In a vacuum and purely looking at damage, yes, it's inferior to melee spell combat and spellstrike. But battles in actual campaigns don't happen in a vacuum1 - they happen in treetops, across canyons, on ships, and yes, in dungeons too. Places where comparing to melee on a featureless grassy plain is impractical/meaningless.

1: space campaigns aside


Why on earth would you want to attach a debuff or control spell to an arrow?

Because arrows have 100ft. range increments, for starters. Not all the good debuff and control spells can reach that far.

[Kurald Galain]

As you yourself noted, the bulk of a magus' damage comes from spellstrike.
Actually, it doesn't. Unless your playstyle is to spam Shocking Grasp, the bulk of a Magus's damage comes from spell combat, plus the fact that it can make a full attack (and self-haste if needed) more reliably than most other melee classes. And yes, the Magus does have a bonus damage mechanic, in its enchant weapon ability.

The issue here is that you're looking solely at the abstract ("attaching spells to arrows is probably good for something, yeah?") without looking concretely at which spells you'd be attaching, or at what you could be doing instead. Of the best control spells, such as Grease, Web, Sleet Storm, or Wall of Ice; which can be attached to an arrow? Well, none of them. The best debuff spells (e.g. Slow, Pilfering Hand, Color Spray) aren't eligible for ranged spellstrike either, although you actually have a few options here (e.g. Ray of Enfeeble / Exhaust). But now you have the problem that these are normally a touch attack, and with an arrow it's suddenly not.

So if you're actually doing long-ranged combat, casting a medium-range area effect like Glitterdust is much better than targeting a single creature with a Ray of Exhaust requiring both an attack roll and a save. If medium range is not enough, you've got Reach Spell for that (also available as rod or as arcana), or you can cast Dimension Door.

It would be much more interesting to find actual examples of what a Magus might use weapon or armor training for. Oh, and please realize that card casters can easily use better weapons than cards.

[Elder_Basilisk]

As you yourself noted, the bulk of a magus' damage comes from spellstrike. A full-attack along with that is nice to have, but overall fairly negligible because they lack a bonus damage mechanic (no Sneak Attack, no Favored Enemy, no Bane/Judgement etc). So those other two 1d8 arrows you'd be firing at ECL 15 aren't going to amount to much in the grand scheme of things, not to mention that firing them keeps you from moving.

Since when is a class based bonus damage mechanic necessary to make multiple attacks effective. What is this, 4E?

By ECL 15 if the magus is archery focused, that should be something like Mighty composite bow +6, Enhancement bonus +4, Holy enhancement (+2d6), bane enhancement (from arcana) +2 +2d6, weapon training +3?, Deadly Aim +6, maybe weapon specialization for another +2? 1d8+20 to 23 plus 4d6 is not negligible. A non-archery focused magus, maybe a little less but still not negligible.

Hmmm. It looks like there are a couple class based bonus damage mechanics hiding in there after all: enhancement bonus and bane from the magus arcana pool, weapon training (since we're discussing myrmidarch). Still, even without them, an extra 2-3 attacks (haste, rapid shot, BAB, etc) are nothing to sneeze at.

[Psyren]

It would be much more interesting to find actual examples of what a Magus might use weapon or armor training for.

Kurald, I already listed several; if you took the time to read more of my posts than the bit you pull out to quote, maybe you'd have seen them by now.


Since when is a bonus damage mechanic necessary to make multiple attacks effective. What is this, 4E?

By ECL 15 if the magus is archery focused, that should be something like Mighty composite bow +6, Enhancement bonus +4, Holy enhancement (+2d6), bane enhancement (from arcana) +2 +2d6, weapon training +3?, Deadly Aim +6, maybe weapon specialization for another +2? 1d8+20 to 23 plus 4d6 is not negligible. A non-archery focused magus, maybe a little less but still not negligible.

> Says bonus damage mechanics aren't necessary
> Sinks resources into bonus damage mechanics

And putting aside that you're making several assumptions here that don't necessarily play out (An archer who needs Dex to hit, Con to live and Int to cast is going to be hard pressed to also find Str for his +6 composite bow, Holy doesn't work on everything, you don't even get Bane until right at your cherry-picked level 15, Deadly Aim makes a medium-BAB class more likely to miss etc), you're still not able to make all these attacks and use spellstrike in the same round unless you're quickening. Again, ranged spellstrike is less about raw DPR and more about delivering RTA spells very long distances.

And yes, an EA with all the optimization you mentioned would indeed be a much stronger archer than a Myrmidarch. They would also be weaker at melee, whereas the Myr would have utility at both.

[Triskavanski]

I do have a Myrmidarch build idea I've wanted to try that uses a pistol sword cane. Letting you blend together melee and ranged attacks generally.

[Kurald Galain]

By ECL 15 if the magus is archery focused, that should be something like Mighty composite bow +6, Enhancement bonus +4, Holy enhancement (+2d6), bane enhancement (from arcana) +2 +2d6, weapon training +3?, Deadly Aim +6, maybe weapon specialization for another +2? 1d8+20 to 23 plus 4d6 is not negligible. A non-archery focused magus, maybe a little less but still not negligible.
Precisely. It's quite silly to think an ECL 15 character would do only 1d8 damage per hit. Obviously, any time it's possible, making a full attack is going to be better than a single attack.

Funnily, the strong point of a Magus is that it can almost always make a full attack. The strong point of an archery build is that it can almost always make a full attack. This makes it a huge strike against the myrm, supposedly based on both Magus and archery, that it cannot make a full attack with ranged spellstrike.

Well, I haven't read the Armor Master's book yet, but unless there's something really spectacular in there, the myrm will remain one of the weakest archetypes in the books. Anything it can do, a regular Magus can do better.

[meemaas]

An idle thought that comes to mind. Would it be possible to use Empty Quiver Style to treat your bow as a melee weapon for the purposes of Spell Combat? I could see a valid argument that it would work, and that might bridge the gap for the Myrmidarch to become a passable archetype. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I thought it might be worth it to throw that out there.

[Psyren]

Funnily, the strong point of a Magus is that it can almost always make a full attack. The strong point of an archery build is that it can almost always make a full attack. This makes it a huge strike against the myrm, supposedly based on both Magus and archery, that it cannot make a full attack with ranged spellstrike.

But it can still make a full-attack in melee - just like a regular magus.

Say it with me:

Myrmidarch is not a "Bow Magus."
Myrmidarch is not a "Bow Magus."
Myrmidarch is not a "Bow Magus."

It's a magus that can use bows with one of its class features, and gets some fighter-only goodies, in exchange for some of the standard magus functionality.

[Kurald Galain]

An idle thought that comes to mind. Would it be possible to use Empty Quiver Style to treat your bow as a melee weapon for the purposes of Spell Combat? I could see a valid argument that it would work, and that might bridge the gap for the Myrmidarch to become a passable archetype.

That ought to work, but it begs the question why you'd be using the myrm archetype for that.

[meemaas]

Way I see it would be to be able to switch hit effectively and be able to spell combat/Spellstrike even when unable to get away, something the Eldritch Archer can't do. I know full well just how mobile a Magus can be (I have read your guide and reference it when making Magus characters) but circumstances won't always agree with it.

[NightbringerGGZ]

So, looking at some of the options that you qualify for with weapon training... here's a ridiculous but amusing idea. Throw Anything + Scimitar + Ricochet Toss + Belt of Mighty hurling.

You now use Strength for attack and damage on both your ranged and melee attacks. When you throw your scimitar is bounces back in your hand immediately after every attack. You only need Power Attack for the melee part of this build, so we're free to pick up ranged/throwing feats if we want them. Charging Hurler could be interesting for instance. At higher levels pick up the AWT option that boosts our weapon damage dice to 2d6. There's an easy access feat to prevent you from provoking AoOs when you throw a weapon for instance.

With this build we can alternate melee and thrown attacks. Combo melee and ranged attacks in the same round, and no sacrifice of our spell combat action economy. Note: That belt adds +10 to our base range with thrown weapons. Can we add Distance to thrown weapons? We can add Keen. By level 15 that's a 2d6 15-20x2 weapon that we use interchangeably for melee or ranged attacks and we're only dependent on a single attribute. It'll also have a flat +4 to attack and damage that other Magus builds won't have.

[Florian]

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that this archetype works when handling it as a Fighter who can incidentally cast spells. It also lends itself well to a switch-hitter role.

What about simply going Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Spirited Charge with Lance and Rifle? Slap on one level of Wizard (Spellslinger) and that should be good to go.

[Triskavanski]

From my time I previously stated something similar.


So as a fighter archetype, it trades away full BAB, armor training 3 and 4, weapon training 4, and most of its bonus feats; and in exchange for that it gains the ability to attach Scorching Ray to his archery a couple times per day. That's still not great though; is that what you meant?

[Florian]

From my time I previously stated something similar.

I remember that this discussion already came up in the Magus Guide thread and I still think that Kurald is wrong there.
Comparing the Myrm to similar classes and archetypes, like Occultist, that are based on a mixed role leads to similar results.

[Kurald Galain]

So, looking at some of the options that you qualify for with weapon training... here's a ridiculous but amusing idea. Throw Anything + Scimitar + Ricochet Toss + Belt of Mighty hurling.
That's indeed a fun concept. I think VMC Fighter is a good deal for a Magus, in particular because of Focused Weapon at levels 15 and up; and indeed Bravery has had some good tricks added to it lately.

[NightbringerGGZ]

That's indeed a fun concept. I think VMC Fighter is a good deal for a Magus, in particular because of Focused Weapon at levels 15 and up; and indeed Bravery has had some good tricks added to it lately.

Agreed. I'm going to polish the build a little and crunch some numbers on it to see how Myrm + VMC Fighter damage output compares to the standard Dervish Dance build. I think the tricky part of this build is going to be figuring out when to buy your magic items, so Craft Wondrous Items may be a necessity.

[Florian]

Just a side-note: The Storm of Blades spell (Magus 2) uses the same weapon and modifiers the Magus can provide. A Myrm VMC Fighter with some PoP (2nd) has a very simply, DR-base spell to spam and cn get a lot of mileage out of it, possibly even surpassing Shocking Grasp in damage potential when crit riders come into play.

[Triskavanski]

Well if you have a lot of swords to burn through.. Which since the spell is a jerk and will take even a magic sword of awesomeness and make it a boring plain normal sword, You could possible cheap out and go the other way where you get crappy cheap little swords for like pixies.

Now taking page from the Warlock Vigilante, These swords would be a weapon attacks, so you'd want to use Arcane Strike to enchant the blades to overcome DR and the like.

[Florian]

Well if you have a lot of swords to burn through.. Which since the spell is a jerk and will take even a magic sword of awesomeness and make it a boring plain normal sword, You could possible cheap out and go the other way where you get crappy cheap little swords for like pixies.

You´re actually missing the point on that one. The spell inherits all feats and class features that are in use for its type. Stuff like Weapon Training, WepFocus/WepSpec, Improved Critical and the critical line of feats actually will work with it.

The Myrm VMC Fighter w. Duelling Gloves we keep talking about will rack up some impressive static boni in this regard, can spent a point to enhance the sword and than use it for the spell.

[Kurald Galain]

You´re actually missing the point on that one. The spell inherits all feats and class features that are in use for its type. Stuff like Weapon Training, WepFocus/WepSpec, Improved Critical and the critical line of feats actually will work with it.

The Myrm VMC Fighter w. Duelling Gloves we keep talking about will rack up some impressive static boni in this regard, can spent a point to enhance the sword and than use it for the spell.

Ok, let's do some math on this.

At level twelve, you'd have weapon training 2 from myrm, +1 from VMC, +2 from dueling gloves; and you could have Imp Crit active (but other critical feats require a level well above where most campaigns end). Let's be generous and assume you've got weapon spec (which is normally a lacklustre feat on a Magus). There's nothing in the spell that suggests the arcane pool enchantment is copied.

To hit is +9 BAB, +5 weapon training, +1 weapon focus, +0 since you're not using a magic weapon, +7 dex. Damage is 1d8 katana, +5 training, +2 weapon spec. Five attacks, crit range 15-20, average monster AC at that level is 27. Now the average damage from Storm of Blades is 35 points, after an investment of two of your four arcana and six of your eight feats.

Let's compare this with a bog-standard Scorching Ray. To-hit is 95% since you're targeting touch AC. Damage is 12d6. The average damage for Scorching Ray is 38 points, requiring zero investment, or 60 points if you want to dip a level in Sorcerer. Sure, this is affected by fire resistance, but the storm of blades is affected by DR.

Overall, not a good outcome for storm of blades.

[Triskavanski]

I didn't miss the point at all.

I brought this spell up as well when coming up with things you can do with a Myrmidarch.

You can get a lot of static bonuses, yeah. But in the end you're still using only standard weapons. Using that arcane pool point just to enhance the sword you're about to use for this spell ends up being a waste, as the swords it produces are standard swords of that type.

You are also missing that it needs a sword to be the material component. Standard Human sized swords weigh somewhere around 2 (for a short sword) to 8 (for a great sword) So it is unlikely you'll be carrying a lot of the same sword around. If you pour all those feats into greatswords, you'll wind up with only being able to cast the spell a few times but it does creater base damage. Short swords tend to be more usable, but are you really wanting to spec out your ability to use a light weapon? Likely the one that gives the most balanced is Longsword or Bastard Swords.

However taking that it is a 'standard sword', it could be possible that you could use smaller swords. Possibly even replica swords, and it would create a standard sword. Best to talk with GM. That would solve the weight issue one would have, though because the material component doesn't actually have a gold cost, it could also be argued that a material component pouch can hold material component swords.

The second problem is the fact that it creates a non-magical weapon. Could be argued that it should be treated as a magical weapon due to it being created by a spell. But it won't be allowed, there is Arcane Strike to"As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power." Which according to the Warlock Vigilante works with


"Because mystic bolts are impermanent, a spell that targets a single weapon (like magic weapon) can't affect it, nor can a mystic bolt be made with magic weapon special abilities. Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts."

Arcane striker itself doesn't do anything beyond give arcane strike and then giving additional effects to Arcane strike.