Tashalatora + Psychic Rogue?

[Eisfalken]

Was kicking over various random ideas when I was browsing the old The Mind's Eye archive. I was looking at psychic rogue, so start tinkering with that. While doing some research on a build for it, I came across the ever-loving Tashalatora build for PsyWar. I thought to myself it'd be pretty damn cool to do a psychic "assassin" by swapping out classes. Yeah, you do lose those bonus feats and some of the useful powers, but psychic rogue isn't exactly a slouch, either.

I figured I'd solicit opinion here on such a build. Seems like you could build a pretty kickin' damage dealer with it, at least on first glance. Take monk 2, swap out Evasion for Invisible Fist ACF from EoE, then just go straight up psy rogue (maybe duck at at the top there for something that gives more sneak attack or unarmed damage). Really good sneak attack damage, really good unarmed strike damage. You can still throw in (Greater) Psionic Fist and Psionic Meditation, Staggering Strike, Extra Power (for expansion and such). Wouldn't mind finding a way to snake in some greater mighty wallop, get that whole "Fist of the North Star" thing rolling.

Any ideas, thoughts, issues?

[Keld Denar]

It works. The only two things to keep in mind is that PsyRogue is Int based while monk is Wis based, so you have either MAD or you burn another feat (3 with Tash + Prereq, then either Carmandine or Kung Fu Genius).

The other thing is that generally PsyRogue benefits from Compression, while Tash benefits from Expansion and being as large as possible. Your UAS damage will go down with size and it'll take a lot more effort to get it back to respectable levels.

On the other hand, TWFing and Flurry with Mind Cripple is brutal.

[Eisfalken]

It works. The only two things to keep in mind is that PsyRogue is Int based while monk is Wis based, so you have either MAD or you burn another feat (3 with Tash + Prereq, then either Carmandine or Kung Fu Genius).

Noted, that's a good reason to take a couple of monk levels then; swap out one of the bonus monk feats for Monastic Training, grab Kung Fu Genius at level 1 so that I can start with the highest Int possible. Good reason there would be really great skill ranks, too. I'd only ever really need Dex, Con, and Int; if I can't rustle up enough stats for Str 13 for Psionic Fist, I can dump it and swap out both that and Greater PF for Expanded Knowledge to grab two extra powers for psyrogue (expansion to grab more size-to-fist damage, maybe power weapon from Complete Psionic so I can punch with force, thus hit incorporeal things).

I guess the question here is, is it worth the MAD for Str 13 to grab (Greater) Psionic Fist for the +4d6 (and Psionic Meditation to get it back as a move action), or should I invest feats elsewhere for better options (like maybe some ambush feats to stack on debuffs)?


The other thing is that generally PsyRogue benefits from Compression, while Tash benefits from Expansion and being as large as possible. Your UAS damage will go down with size and it'll take a lot more effort to get it back to respectable levels.

Well... I'm sort of looking for the party to help a tiny bit. If I can get yon wizard/sorcerer to throw greater mighty wallop my way, then smaller isn't necessarily that bad. Or some way to shoehorn that spell into an item I can make a UPD roll on.

I'm not terribly worried about size; I can just buy a skin of proteus to get metamorphosis basically at-will; it won't have access to anything that big, but it's better than nothing. Truth be told, for a sneaky type, that skin is amazing anyway, for just changing identities, getting extra movement modes, etc. While the cost is big, I have been really chewing over getting it at the expense of everything else. If nothing else, if I tell the DM "this is literally all I have", he might not be too put out about polymorph-style abuse.


On the other hand, TWFing and Flurry with Mind Cripple is brutal.

Sweet fancy Moses. That is definitely a mean thing to do. Throw in shadow jump twice for 120 ft. teleportation through shadow per day, a weapon or necklace of natural weapons with spell storing and ray of stupidity on it just to stack on the Int damage. Even if I had to solo something, I could shut it down in a couple of rounds of good attack rolls with flurry. And with Unavoidable Strike, I could make at least one flurry blow a touch attack, which would virtually guarantee at least one hit.

Hmm. Lots of options, but they are very feat-heavy. Gonna have to pick a direction for this one...

[Keld Denar]

As far as your stats, it depends on what the sacrifices are. If you have a lean PB (25 or even 28) it might be hard to get that 13 Str. If you have 32 or 36, or use something like the Elite Array, its less hard. Keep in mind that if you have a 13 Str, you can't Compress at all without losing access to Psionic Fist since Compression comes with a -2 Str penalty which will turn it and any feats dependent on it (like Unavoidable Strike) off. Maybe starting off with a small races with 30' move like Whisper Gnome or Goblin might be worthwhile, or just don't use Compression at all and be medium with Dwarf or Human. Human is nice because of the bonus feat, and you seem to want feats.

I dunno if Psionic Fist is worth it, however. It's 1 hit per full attack, which doesn't synergize well with Flurry. You'd probably be better served with more traditional rogue feats like Craven and Staggering Strike. More benefits.

[Darrin]

On the other hand, TWFing and Flurry with Mind Cripple is brutal.

Particularly with poison rings from Dragon Compendium... and if that's not EEEEEVIL enough, add Maiming Strike for Cha damage.

If Maiming Strike is on the table, then there's also daremetoidareyou's Fuglimancer trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19553550&postcount=248): Replace all your sneak attack with Cha damage, then use Craven to add an obscene about of Cha damage on top of that.

[Sian]

I dunno if Psionic Fist is worth it, however. It's 1 hit per full attack, which doesn't synergize well with Flurry. You'd probably be better served with more traditional rogue feats like Craven and Staggering Strike. More benefits.

It would synergize if you picked Decisive Strike (PHB2) instead of Flurry

[Keld Denar]

Not really. Bonus dice never double. So he wouldn't get any extra bonus for Psionic Fist with Decisive Strike, and he'd lose all of the extra SA dice he'd get in the round for multiple attacks.

Decisive Strike would make it worse.

[Psyren]

The other thing is that generally PsyRogue benefits from Compression, while Tash benefits from Expansion and being as large as possible. Your UAS damage will go down with size and it'll take a lot more effort to get it back to respectable levels.

You don't need to - as long as you can reach the target's vitals, Sneak Attack damage never changes with size. So even a 1d2 weapon attack can layer on the pain once you mix it in with flurry.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, but there is a big difference between 1d6+4d6 and 3d8+4d6. SA doesn't change size, but SA, especially the PsyRogue's slower progression with 2 levels of Monk slowing it down even more, doesn't result in a huge amount of SA dice, especially not in the first 8 or so levels when it matters the most. So having a decent UAS damage size helps deliver some pain. Compression diminishes that pain while Expansion increases it.

I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, just that it's something you either have to work around or live with.

EDIT: By ECL8, at Monk2/PsyRogue6 you only have 2d6 SA. By ECL9, you have 3d6 SA. Not oodles of damage. That's 1/2 the damage of an even leveled Rogue. Craven helps even it out a little, but every bit of damage helps so I'd urge against Compression in this case, especially if starting from a small race like Whisper Gnome.

[daremetoidareyo]

Consider being a kalashtar then.

Kalashtar Monk Substitution Levels (RoE 124): gain Autohypnosis and Knowledge (psionics) as class skills
1st level: Psychic Insight (spend power points to improve grapple and stunning fist attacks), replace flurry blow
2nd level: Can select psionic feat as bonus feat.

If stunning fist aint your thang, use monastic training as your first level monk bonus feat, take kung fu genius at first level, take tashalatora as your third.

So your build would be: If you have flaws available, get stunning fist at first level and take a flaw to get yourself monastic training.
1: kalashtar monk: monastic training (bonus), kung fu genius (1)
2: Psychic rogue
3: Kalashtar monk: midnight augmentation (based off kalashtar psionics) bonus feat, Tashalatora (3)

[Keld Denar]

I'd suggest keeping Flurry. With Tash, you get full Flurry progression, which means that the penalty goes away and you eventually get Greater Flurry for 2 attacks. More attacks = more SA dice. It's basically Improved TWFing for free, but better. Plus, as I said, with Mind Cripple, you want all of the attacks per round you can get.

[Eisfalken]

Yeah, I tinkered a bit with Decisive Strike, but it's not doing much at all. I do need a high attack bonus to ensure flurry lands all its blows, but if it does it outperforms a Decisive Strike + Psionic Fist single attack every time, presuming I can get flanking or negate Dex-to-armor. Technically we can ditch the two levels of monk, but it's not like it's going to really help the SA dice that much.

I'm not so much looking at SA as the only boost to be had here. Psyrogues can get expansion with a feat, hence my question if Psionic Fist is even really worth it (since the power boosts both Str and unarmed strike damage dice). The issue there is, you get PF bonus minimum once a round of full-attack, and you still have to focus to get it again. Psionic Meditation helps, but now you're gobbling up more and more feats just to punch harder at the cost of action economy. If I get three flurry attacks with 2d6 SA, I'm already doing more than Greater Psionic Fist... and I didn't have to sacrifice action economy to do it. The caveat there is, I have to flank, feint, etc. to get SA every round, and I still need to full-attack to flurry. (Which shouldn't be a huge deal, but I may have to pop another feat for adding a power for mobility and/or stealth.)

It almost looks like Expanded Knowledge (expansion) and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) would give me more mileage than bothering with Psionic Fist or any of that jazz. Unavoidable Strike looks sweet (especially once Mind Cripple goes online later), but there's got to be better ways to either get in that touch attack or just to bypass a lot of AC (attack bonuses or some kind of penalty on the target).

I know a straight monk 2 / rogue 17 / SA thug fighter 1 with Ascetic Rogue would be far superior for both skill monkey and SA dice mixed with unarmed attack. I guess what I'm wondering here is, is trading SA dice (and a smidgen of skill points) worth having psionic powers from psyrogue? I'm a little fuzzier on that because I'm not sure if there's a golden rule about SA dice like there is about CL. It seems like having a power list can potentially be a great benefit for a stealthy build, since manifesting powers is typically more subtle than casting spells, and it permits you to benefit from certain psionic items here and there that give you more options for controlling the situation in the battlefield better.

[Keld Denar]

There are a lot of powers that are great for rogue types, especially the non-combat ones. Since manifesting doesn't have any verbal components, you can easily manifest from hiding without really giving yourself away.

Far Hand and My Light are pretty fun while sneaking. Concealing Amorphia is solid for fighting and Read Thoughts has legit cred when coupled with social skills. Detect Hostile Intent can also help with a scouting role. Hustle is badass for getting into full attack flanking position.

Plus you don't get Mind Cripple as a non-psionic rogue, nor do you get Tash to advance UAS damage and Flurry. I don't remember what Ascetic Rogue gives, but I don't think it advances Flurry which can actually be pretty nice later on.

An alternative would be to go with Psionic Assassin from Secrets of Sarlona. It advances existing manifesting (vs the Psionic adaptation of normal Assassin) and then you could duct tape it onto a PsyWar base for a potentially better power list.

[Eisfalken]

There are a lot of powers that are great for rogue types, especially the non-combat ones. Since manifesting doesn't have any verbal components, you can easily manifest from hiding without really giving yourself away.

Far Hand and My Light are pretty fun while sneaking. Concealing Amorphia is solid for fighting and Read Thoughts has legit cred when coupled with social skills. Detect Hostile Intent can also help with a scouting role. Hustle is badass for getting into full attack flanking position.

That's kind of what I'm thinking. With dorjes and cognizance crystals, you can get off a lot of tricks in a day, which seems like it would make up for some loss of damage output there.


Plus you don't get Mind Cripple as a non-psionic rogue, nor do you get Tash to advance UAS damage and Flurry. I don't remember what Ascetic Rogue gives, but I don't think it advances Flurry which can actually be pretty nice later on.

Basically it's garbage: only progresses unarmed strike and gives a +2 DC to stunning fist if you sneak attack with it.


An alternative would be to go with Psionic Assassin from Secrets of Sarlona. It advances existing manifesting (vs the Psionic adaptation of normal Assassin) and then you could duct tape it onto a PsyWar base for a potentially better power list.

You have that one flipped: The Mind's Eye article has the manifester progression, the Sarlona one is a set list.

Seems fairly "meh". You have to tweak it to get +1d6 SA out of it, otherwise all you can do is get a die of SA a level early. You do get death attack (which is situational) and hide in plain sight (which is very useful), but you lose one psyrogue special ability in the process, and you only get half manifester progression, and worst of all you can't progress Tash UAS damage since. Not sure this is a good trade-off at all; the damage breaks about even, but there's a definite loss of psionics.

Lots to think about here. I'll try to gin up a build and post it, let you guys tweak it and see if we get something good out of it.

[Keld Denar]

You'd be a late bloomer, but you could always Tash together Monk + Psionic Assassin. That would give you 12 levels of Flurry (Greater Flurry) and you could make up some of the extra UAS damage later with a Monk's Belt or Superior Unarmed Strike. I think you can get into PsiAssassin at Monk2/PsyWar3 or Monk2/PsiRogue3. You'd be 3 levels behind on UAS, but that would only matter every 3/4 levels until level 15. The first build gets 2 extra feats (very nice) while the second gets +1d6 SA and better skills early.

I guess it depends on what level you start and where you want to be viable. From 1, planning for PsiAssassin will feel like it takes FOREVER to develop into the role. In fact, starting from 1, any Tash build will feel slow to develop because you usually don't even get powers until 3. If you start at ECL4, Monk2/PsiRogue2 will feel pretty good. From ECL6, it might feel a little saggy, while Monk2/PsiWar3/PsiAssassin1 will be coming online. IIRC, Monk2/PsiRogue11 gets Mind Cripple earliest at ECL13, while Monk2/PsiWar3/PsiAssassin5 gets it at ECL10. It all depends on where you are playing from.