Two Builds - Barbarian/Rogue & Rogue (trickster)/Wizard (Illusionist)

[RaynorReynolds]

Greetings! I have a couple ideas bouncing around that I wanted to throw out there and get some feedback on. The game will have a 33 point buy system, in lieu of the usual 27 so that opens up some more MAD builds. If it would be better to have two separate posts, let me know and I will split it up.

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1. Barbarian 12 / Rogue 8 (Barb 8 / Rogue 8 / Fighter 4), Human

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 12

What are we losing out by multi-classing with Rogue instead of going straight Barbarian?
1. +1 Rage Damage
2. Persistent Rage
3. Idomitable Might
4. Primal Champion
5. Level 14 path feature
6. Loss of 16 hp (average)

What are we gaining from multi-classing to Rogue?
1. Expertise
2. Sneak Attack (build dependent)
3. Cunning Action
4. Uncanny Dodge!
5. Evasion (you already have advantage on dex saves, this just makes you that much more un-killable)
6. Assassinate (this does not just apply to finesse weapons! Autocrit + Brutal Critical = )

What about sneak attack? That doesn't work with a Greataxe! BUT it does work with your hand axes! I think going 12 into Barbarian, might be a bit too far actually. I might go only 8 (extra attack, feral instinct, ASI), and take the remaining four levels in Fighter. Ideal set up? Javelins or Handaxes for Sneak Attack, Glaive (or other polearm), take PAM feat at level 4, Sentinel at 8, +2 dex, +2 con, +2 dex. I am on the fence with taking Sentinel. You would have to use a finesse weapon to get the most out of it.

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2. Rogue (Trickster) / Wizard (Illusionist)


Str 8
Dex 16
Con ?
Int 16
Wis ?
Cha ?

This build I am not as sure about. He is an infiltration expert (with the Charlatan background) specializing in high profile assassinations. In public, he acts as an private investigator / bounty hunter. He also has a strong connection with the Zhentarim.

How many levels should I take in each class? Is there another class I should be thinking of taking? What else can make this character excel?

[djreynolds]

I like both builds and the ideas.

But for me, IMO, dip rogue or invest in it heavily. I would just grab 3 levels of barbarian and the rest rogue. Fight either with a rapier or short sword and shield, or twin short swords or hand axes. Or combo of weapons. And stick the sneak attack every turn.

You can grab 6 levels of barbarian for the extra attack and class feature, but leave it there.

You can still be strength based but just fight with finesse weapons.

Or just grab 2 levels of rogue for expertise and cunning action.

[Specter]

The second one seems more fun. You'll need Dex and Int maxed, then Con, then everything else.
I'd go for Rogue 11/Wizard 9. Magical Ambush is priceless.

[smcmike]

I am currently playing something like the Barbarian/Rogue, with very similar stats, though haven't got past first level yet. A couple of notes -

1. Sneak attack does not work with hand axes or javelins. It has to be a finesse or ranged weapon (ranged weapons are weapons listed under "ranged").

2. I'm currently undecided whether to take barbarian past 5. Extra attack is necessary, but barb 5/rogue 15 looks pretty decent. I thought about fitting in three levels of champion for crit-fishing, but that doesn't seem necessary.

3. Shield master is mighty good. I think you want a special use for that athletics expertise. My plan is sword and board with a rapier, knocking people over and sneak attacking like mad.

[RaynorReynolds]

The second one seems more fun. You'll need Dex and Int maxed, then Con, then everything else.
I'd go for Rogue 11/Wizard 9. Magical Ambush is priceless.

Thanks! I was leaning towards the second as well. I just need to flush out the "character" some more.

[Corran]

2. Rogue (Trickster) / Wizard (Illusionist)


Str 8
Dex 16
Con ?
Int 16
Wis ?
Cha ?

This build I am not as sure about. He is an infiltration expert (with the Charlatan background) specializing in high profile assassinations. In public, he acts as an private investigator / bounty hunter. He also has a strong connection with the Zhentarim.

Let's talk a bit about infiltration first. As far as I can think, there are a few different approaches:

1) The most classic way is to rely on a combination of skills, especially stealth and athletics. Perception to a secondary extent too. This way you can infiltrate places just like if you were playing that commando old video game. Expertise in said skill is something that can help in that respect, and I would also recommend the lucky feat, as rolls can betray you sometimes, and some of these skill rolls will be very crucial. As for race, halfling and wood elf have something to offer, with those rerolls on 1's or that ability to hide in natural light obscurement.

2) Another way to infiltrate a place is using disguises. Proficiency in disguise kit, and a good deception score (thuse a decent charisma score) can help somewhat in that respect. But you can also use magic for some additional goodness. Disguise self and alter self can help you significantly. Just mind their limitations. For example, disguise self lets you take another appearance, but does nothing against physical inspection or to mascarade the sound of your voice. On the other hand, alter self burns higher level slots, so it will be more difficult to spam, and also requires concentration, which can limit the ways you can combine it with other spells. For example, you can combine disguise self with the cantrips friends, but you can not do the same with alter self, as both alter self and friends require concentration.
Enchantment magic can also go a long way, as far as infiltration is concerned. Charming your way through guards, or even dominating them (though dominate spells are more combat-oriented in this edition if I am not hugely mistaken). Well, low level magic like friends and/or charm person can play their part.
Regarding this approach, playing a doppelganger is the best choice, as it can solve a lot of problems. Another way to approach this, is to pick 2 levels of warlock for the mask of many faces invocation, and take the actor feat along the way.

3) Last but not least, magic. There are some spells that can effortlessly take you where you want to be. Or just help you enormously in your attempts to infiltrate. Such spells include invisibility, dimension door, pass without a trace, etherealness, teleport, etc. Even spells like scrying and dispel magic can help you in your planning beforehand, or in just disarming magical alarms and the like.

A master infiltrator should have all 3 approaches in his repertoire, plus possibly other ways that I didnt think of.


About assassination, the level 3 feature of the assassin archtype is pretty much mandatory. There is no way of going around that, if you want to be able to take out surprised opponents quickly.



I could go on into more specific advice, regarding classes and races, but first I would like to hear a bit more about this character, so that I dont just start rambling in a wrong direction.

[RaynorReynolds]

Let's talk a bit about infiltration first. As far as I can think, there are a few different approaches:

1) The most classic way is to rely on a combination of skills, especially stealth and athletics. Perception to a secondary extent too. This way you can infiltrate places just like if you were playing that commando old video game. Expertise in said skill is something that can help in that respect, and I would also recommend the lucky feat, as rolls can betray you sometimes, and some of these skill rolls will be very crucial. As for race, halfling and wood elf have something to offer, with those rerolls on 1's or that ability to hide in natural light obscurement.

2) Another way to infiltrate a place is using disguises. Proficiency in disguise kit, and a good deception score (thuse a decent charisma score) can help somewhat in that respect. But you can also use magic for some additional goodness. Disguise self and alter self can help you significantly. Just mind their limitations. For example, disguise self lets you take another appearance, but does nothing against physical inspection or to mascarade the sound of your voice. On the other hand, alter self burns higher level slots, so it will be more difficult to spam, and also requires concentration, which can limit the ways you can combine it with other spells. For example, you can combine disguise self with the cantrips friends, but you can not do the same with alter self, as both alter self and friends require concentration.
Enchantment magic can also go a long way, as far as infiltration is concerned. Charming your way through guards, or even dominating them (though dominate spells are more combat-oriented in this edition if I am not hugely mistaken). Well, low level magic like friends and/or charm person can play their part.
Regarding this approach, playing a doppelganger is the best choice, as it can solve a lot of problems. Another way to approach this, is to pick 2 levels of warlock for the mask of many faces invocation, and take the actor feat along the way.

3) Last but not least, magic. There are some spells that can effortlessly take you where you want to be. Or just help you enormously in your attempts to infiltrate. Such spells include invisibility, dimension door, pass without a trace, etherealness, teleport, etc. Even spells like scrying and dispel magic can help you in your planning beforehand, or in just disarming magical alarms and the like.

A master infiltrator should have all 3 approaches in his repertoire, plus possibly other ways that I didnt think of.

About assassination, the level 3 feature of the assassin archtype is pretty much mandatory. There is no way of going around that, if you want to be able to take out surprised opponents quickly.

I could go on into more specific advice, regarding classes and races, but first I would like to hear a bit more about this character, so that I dont just start rambling in a wrong direction.

Thank you for taking the time to respond! I was definitely going for a mix of all three. I was leaning towards the classes I mentioned mainly for mage hand ledgermain (sp?), magical ambush, and maleable illusions. I am certainly open to other suggesions (sorcerer?). So far Im thinking Assassin 3/Warlock 2. Either half-elf or changeling. Does that sound better?

I am still working on developing his personality, flaws, etc. As a broad overview, he is genuinly friendly and social. He enjoys his PI and Bounty hunting work. The high profile (political) assassinations are infrequent and he takes them on more as a challenge or test of his abilities than anything else. He views his targets as deserving it one way or another.

[RaynorReynolds]

I think I have settled on Rogue 9/Warlock 9/Fighter 2. Sound reasonable?

[Corran]

I am still working on developing his personality, flaws, etc. As a broad overview, he is genuinly friendly and social.
That seems to ask for proficiency in persuasion, as well for a decent/very good charisma score. A bit challenging to justify for a character who is a mixture of assassin and warlock (if you end up playing sth like this), but doable nonetheless. Sometimes such kind of antitheses make for great characters though.


He enjoys his PI and Bounty hunting work. The high profile (political) assassinations are infrequent and he takes them on more as a challenge or test of his abilities than anything else. He views his targets as deserving it one way or another.
If assassinating is indeed going to be a rare thing, then your initial thoughts for an arcane trickster/ wizard are solid. A good intelligence will help with all these investigating rolls too. Dont completely dump charisma though in this case. Expertise can still be applied to one or two cha-based skills to let them shine.


I was leaning towards the classes I mentioned mainly for mage hand ledgermain (sp?), magical ambush, and maleable illusions. I am certainly open to other suggesions (sorcerer?). So far Im thinking Assassin 3/Warlock 2. Either half-elf or changeling. Does that sound better?
If you are sold on the arcane trickster, and you dont think that your character will focus a lot on assassinating enemies, then go for it, it is a very good rogue subclass. If not, then assassin is a must. Problem with assassin is, that imo every archtype feature beyond the ones at 3rd level are not great, and can easily be replicated and even be bested by multiclassing. Perhaps you could go up to level 6 for an extra 2 expertised skills, or you could stop at rogue 3. Assassin 3/ warlock 3 is a very good base for an assassin. Hex, Darkness, invisibility, mask of many faces, devil's sight and pact blade are all great tools at the hands of a rogue, especially an assassin.
About the race, both changeling and halfelf are great races, and if you are sold on playing one of those races for a roleplaying reason (or any other race for that matter), then go for it. If it was me though, and I was going for an assassin/warlock, I would definitely go with human variant. The feat is extremelly valuable to a feat hungry build that gets feats in a delayed pace due to multiclassing, all at the same time while you offset the biggest drawback of human (lack of darkvision) by devil's sight invocation. And while a changeling's racial ability is solid gold, you can effectively do the same with mask of many faces, especially if you devote that extra feat from human on the actor feat (which also nets you another extra point in charisma and helps with your charisma checks too).

At this point I have to ask. How do you envision this character fighting? Using a bow or a crossbow? Some melee finese weapon perhaps? A big sword maybe? Or hurling blasts of eldritch energy and other spells? A mix of some of the above perhaps?


Thank you for taking the time to respond!
Dont mention it, my pleasure!

[djreynolds]

You know I like the rogue/barbarian. With expertise in strength and grappling, you snag him in a bear hug and stab him with a dagger, and since you have advantage you'd get you sneak attack. More rogue than barbarian, a big strength based rogue, with a touch a barbarian. Grapple him around the neck and stab him in the chest.

Scary image of hulking figure, with a little dagger.

[RaynorReynolds]

He would stick to ranged attacks with a crossbow and spells. Would you go more than 3 levels in Warlock? Or switch to a different spellcasting class for a broader selection of spells? Is Uncanny Dodge and Evasion worth staying with Rogue until level 7 or 8?

I do plan on taking the actor feat and probably lucky as well so starting v.human might be the best option.

[Corran]

Well, I would say at least 5 levels in warlock, for the thirsting blade invocation, since you will be relying on a crosssbow for some of your attacks. And ofc 3rd level spells, some really good choices there.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487223-Blade-Pact-is-the-new-king-of-Warlocks) is a recent thread that discusses some relevant builds, you can perhaps find some good ideas there.

Both uncanny dodge and evasion are pretty cool features, you cant go wrong with any of them. Also, adding more rogue levels buffs your sneak attack damage, which is always good. If I were in your shoes, I would take a look at the warlock, and I would try to find the point at which I would be confortable to stop. Then I would take the remaining levels in rogue, with perhaps a dip in fighter for archery and perhaps even action surge (as you already have thought). Check the invocations and the spells, and see what you would really like to have and what you can do without.

Since you are going xbow, sharpshooter and xbow master are good picks. And since you are already considering actor and lucky (and rightly so, imo), and since you will probably want to spent a couple ASIs to dex and perhaps cha, you have a lot of competition for your ASIs/feats. Vhuman seems like the best choice.

I would aim for rogue 2/warlock 3 asap, for darkness + devil's sight + cunning action hide. Also pick BB as one of your cantrips, for when you need to dabble in melee, it plays well with this set up (and ofc so does the xbow). Dont know how familiar you are with this tactic, it is pretty well known around this forum but if you are not familiar with it I can further explain.
Basically, you cast darkness on some item your carry on your person, so that it moves with you. Because you have the devil's sight invocation, you can see through this magical darkness, while everyone else without that invocation cannot. So that means you are attacking with advantage and you are being attacked with disadvantage. But there is more. You dont have to worry about OAs, since OAs require to have sight of the target, so that can take care of the absense of xbow master for however long you delay it. Also there are a lot of spells that target saves, that again require seeing the target (this is specified in their spell description), so you will be safe against numerous spells when engulfed in your magical darkness. But the best thing is, that at the end of every round, you can use your bonus action to hide, through the rogue's cunning action, so that means that the enemies must now guess at your location, which practically means untargetable. Even if they keep trying to run outside the magical darkness, you can still kite them with your ranged attacks from inside the darkness, still having advantage and enjoying all the above benefits too. This works well in melee too, especially if you use BB, as you will keep moving around, so the secondary damage of BB will kick in reliably and often, as most enemies will move either to try to engage you or to flee. Dispel magic and AOEs are your enemies, but counterspell and a good dex save coupled with evasion will help you in that respect. Also be mindful of grapples, having a spell like misty step or a good ahletics or acrobatics skill, will help you against smart enemies who will try to grapple you. Losing concentration is your biggest fear, but hopefully your stealth check (expertise plays a part here) will protect you.

Also mask of many faces + actor feat + friends will hopefully entertain you and the rest of your table.