I'm testing a riddle, since it will be Very Deadly

[Jon_Dahl]

A well-known and trusted high priest gives a prophecy:
Today will a day of great devastation. One of Elements will undo us and two will come to its aid. Only the element we cannot shield will shield us. Any other shield that shields us will kill us.
Stay away from the Element and its allies! This is a day when we will have nothing to hide!

I don’t know the riddle, but here’s a book prophecies in ancient, archaic common. There is a chapter that talks about dreams of elements and death. If you know how to read it, please do.

The book of prophecies:
Three successful Decripher script DC 20 checks needed to understand the prophecies. The first successful check will reveal that shields are what you have around you (not under you). The second will tell that some unknown reason, the PCs shouldn’t be at sea today. The third check will tell the PCs that there’s going to be a massive earthquake that day and then the NPCs will help the PCs and themselves to survive the earthquake with minimal damage.

Stay away from anything that can shield us. That should be very simple: anything that can cover you, shield you etc. will kill you (a house, a castle, any roof over your head etc.)
Stay away from earth, fire and water. Should be simple enough, really!
And the element that you cannot shield is air. You can shield any other element, like a pool of water, a bonfire, a rock...
Air is the solution!

[Ashtagon]

D&D science (modern chemistry) isn't develoepd enough to tell us we are mostly water as in H2O. But its predecessor, four humors science, would tell us we are an equal mix of fire, earth, water, and air (plus a fifth element if using Indic or Shinto elementalism). Whether by chemistry or alchemy principles, this riddle is not solvable.

[Jon_Dahl]

D&D science (modern chemistry) isn't develoepd enough to tell us we are mostly water as in H2O. But its predecessor, four humors science, would tell us we are an equal mix of fire, earth, water, and air (plus a fifth element if using Indic or Shinto elementalism). Whether by chemistry or alchemy principles, this riddle is not solvable.

I agree, but I still think it's an ok riddle, although different interpretations exist.

[the_david]

We drink water and that fills us. Well, your stomach... And only temporarily...

Multiple interpretations possible. I wouldn't go through with this riddle.

[shaikujin]

Limited to the 4 elements, there's a much higher chance that ancients will think that blood is what fills them and incorrectly guess water instead of air.

After all, blood pours out of creatures when they are hurt.



What about something like this:

Today will be a day of a great many deaths.
One Element will consume us and two will assault from the depths.
One Element will loftly bear us, the Element that the strongest men cannot heft.



It's not very good either, but all I can come up with for now. Hopefully that also gives them a hint that they need to be borne up into the air to survive whatever Elements will be coming from the depths. As opposed to summoning Air Elementals for combat, which players are wont to do.

[Ashtagon]

Death from the depths comes for the city. Fly, you fools!

Thats how id put the riddle.

[Darrin]

It looks to me like you're creating a single point of failure, and the PCs will be either frustrated or angry.

You can give them additional clues by building some additional information into it:

"This sounds similar to a riddle I saw in a book about the Great Cataclysm..." = have someone make a Knowledge: History, Knowledge: Geography, or some similar subject. Bardic Knowledge is also good for this.

"This is a translation of the original prophecy written in Old Zarkonic, maybe if we knew what it said in the original language it might be clearer?" = Decipher Script roll, or someone has an obscure language on their character sheet.

"This sounds like something I heard the High Priest Zarkon mention once..." = this gets the PCs to an NPC with the ranks in Knowledge, Decipher Script, or whatever skill they completely fumbled on multiple times. While you can use this to essentially give a frustrated group of PCs the correct answer, you can make them feel like they "earned" it by requiring some other skill check to convince the NPC to help them: Diplomacy, Bluff, or whatever they are particularly good at.

There are also divination spells, either cast by the PCs or (if you're desperate) NPCs.

In general, every single problem you present to the PCs should be solvable by at least two of three methods:

1) Violence. Kill monster, break down door, destroy statue, problem solved.

2) Expertise. The PCs are really good at something besides combat, be it diplomacy, stealing stuff, casting magic spells, etc.

3) Social Engineering. You know somebody that can remove obstacles, or you have a way to convince an NPC to help you. This is not strictly skill use, which would be the second category, but could be other means, such as bribery, blackmail, or just consulting with allies/contacts/patrons that are inclined to help you or need a favor.

Violence is the toughest to use with riddles, so you have to work pretty hard to get that to work here, but sometimes you can get away with something like a sphynx that knows the answer, "Defeat my chosen champion and if you prove yourself worthy I will give you a clue", or "The High Priest is locked in the tower, and the guardian golem has gone berzerk, won't someone please rescue him?"

So... yeah, I'm really not fond of the whole "PCs must solve the riddle" to proceed kinda thing, because there's a very high likelihood of several hours of frustration followed by a TPK.

[nyjastul69]

Is this riddle supposed to challenge the players, or their characters?

[Esprit15]

That's a lot of vaguery to say "There will be an earthquake. Stay in open areas." I understand that prophecies are supposed to be vague, but unless this is some Krakatoa-level disaster, I don't see why it needs the mystique.

That being said, Darrin has a good idea. Allow some checks, especially if the players are playing ha rafters smarter than their selves. We aren't used to thinking in terms of the four elements. "The element inside us" for example will pull them toward the answer "water." That's going to be really awkward when they go out to sea, only to get killed in the ensuing tsunami.

[Nightcanon]

A well-known and trusted high priest gives a prophecy:
”Today there will be a great day of death. One of the Elements will attack us and two will help it. One Element will shield us, the Element of That Fills Us.”

Please note that Planar Travel is not an option.

The solution:
There will be an earthquake. Fire (mostly due to anarchy that follows) and water (one large wave will kill some people and destroy a few ships) will be factors too. Only standing in open air away from the sea will save you from harm. Air is the element that fills us, since we breathe air, and D&D science isn't good enough to tell the PCs that we are mostly water. Saying that "water fills us" will be metagaming.

The Air: Earthquake's effect on the plains will be minimal. If you're underground or inside a building, there is a chance for massive amount of damage and being buried alive. Being at the sea will also be potentially very lethal. The earthquake will happen at late afternoon, so I will just check where the PCs are and go with that, no matter what.

I can't even make out why this is a riddle. I mean, it's obviously a cryptic statement, or even a cryptic clue, but there isn't a question inherent in what is said. I'd guess that Air fills us, and the remaining elements are the other three. What you are trying to say eludes me though.
*reads spoiler*
Well, that kind of makes sense, but one could argue that the whole 4 elements thing had most things, including people, as mixtures of the 4, with the nature and balance of that mix determining personality traits. A dwarf might feel that she was filled with Earth, a Sorceror with Fire and so on.
More broadly, I'm not sure if this is a good idea. You basically seem to be saying that if the PCs don't solve your riddle, some of them will die. That's pretty railroady. What happens if they decide they need to hide underground from a hurricane, or take to boats to avoid a volcano or wildfire. Is it going to be TPK time?. You seem pretty eager to punish 'metagaming' through use of OOC knowledge. Is there a reason for that?
Riddles can be pretty dodgy at the best of times- a lot of the time you know the answer because you know either the riddle (4 legs in the morning, eh?) or the form (my first is in dragon, but not in drow...). Having the whole campaign hinge on whether the players can guess the answer in teacher's head makes it a no win for them, if the best outcome is no better than what would have happened if the riddle harn't been asked at all.
Edited to add: another issue is what the PCs are supposed to do with the information if they do solve the riddle. Fly out of town? Stay and try to evacuate the commoners, and gamble that their high HP scores, superior saves and access to magic with see them through as it usually does.

[ATHATH]

I recommend making multiple scenarios and using one of them, depending on which element the players think will be the one that saves them.

For Example:
Earth: A hurricane (water and air) will hit an alchemist's workshop (which will fill it with Alchemist's Fire (fire)), and then the city.
Air: Use the idea that you presented in the OP.
Fire: Creatures of the night cause mayhem in the city using the other 3 elements.
Water: Creatures that fear water cause mayhem in the city using the other 3 elements.

[Gildedragon]

Bad riddle:
Water is a sensible solution because of blood and tears and spit: we excrete and secrete a lot of water.
Add to that humor theory...And air isn't deducible
And in the first part there is no way to assign elements.

Thought of a couple ways for a good prophecy:

There comes a great Devastation, and only those favored by the heaven shall escape. That which is whole shall be unmade, the mountains of man shall be lowered to the deep. The earth shall make our grave, and salty tears our shroud. There is no deliverance but that granted for us under the vast skies.

[Seto]

I don't think it's a good riddle. Besides, even if they do figure out that air is the answer, "Air will save us" is still incredibly vague and in no way leads to conclude "let's go in the plains".

[Elder_Basilisk]

Clearly, the answer is to get very drunk on Guiness.

We know this because the element that fill us will shield us. Non-light beer is known to be filling and alcohol is the element that fills us. Therefore, we should all go to the tavern and get drunk.

[Deadline]

"The Element that fills us" is most likely to be water or air. So the players have a 50/50 shot at guessing the right element. And once they've guessed an element, they still need to figure out just how the heck it's supposed to "shield" them.

You'll probably need to either provide further information for the players, or make it so that guessing wrong isn't instant death or the like.

For what it's worth, my guess as to the answer of your riddle was Water, so I'd have guessed wrong.

[Darrin]

Also an earthquake that can be avoided by going outdoors: not meritory of a prophecy

I have some other problems with an earthquake. Being in "open air" isn't an entirely obvious solution to surviving an earthquake. How much "open air" do you need? Is it enough to just go out into the street, or do you need to leave the actual city limits? At the more extreme end, the riddle could even be saying, "You must be currently flying with open air completely surrounding you, or the ground will try to completely murderhobo you."

Also, while an earthquake can certainly be devastating, there aren't going to be a lot of large multi-level structures around to begin with. They're expensive and usually full of rich people, so most multi-level structures probably aren't going to be all that densely populated. There may be a variety of poorly-constructed buildings that will collapse, but assuming the setting is moderately European-style medieval, the primary roofing material is likely to be thatch, so mostly survivable. Unmortared or rough masonry walls could kill a good chunk of people, but the vast majority of deaths are going to come from subsequent hydrological events (tsunami, flooding, mudslides, etc.) or the fires/rioting that happen afterward. Also, if there's a tsunami, taking the ships out to sea would be very safe, probably safer than open air, so long as they are far enough to avoid the wave cresting. While being in open air may save the PCs in the short term, going back into a city where every survivor is in "Smash-n-Grab" mode is likely to be much more dangerous than the earthquake.

Assuming the PCs even solve the riddle, and convince the High Priest (or whatever local government is in charge) to evacuate the entire city, and the populace is cooperating with the evacuation (a lot of big IFs there)... it's kinda an effed up riddle that saves the population from the immediate danger of the earthquake/tsunami, but then destroys their homes with fire/flooding/rioting, leaving them to face food shortages, extreme weather, and various opportunistic bandits. If that was my gawd's idea of a "warning" to avoid disaster, in a world where High Priests can perform miracles and greater deities can be called upon to do even greater things, I'd be really peeved if my deity hadn't sent a prophecy more along the lines of, "Go fetch this powerful artifact to avoid this earthquake" rather than "Go stand outside and watch your entire livelihood get destroyed."

[ComaVision]

Clearly, the answer is to get very drunk on Guiness.

We know this because the element that fill us will shield us. Non-light beer is known to be filling and alcohol is the element that fills us. Therefore, we should all go to the tavern and get drunk.

Anyone done up a Beer Elemental for 3.5?

[Jon_Dahl]

All right, I have carefully read all the comments and I thank you all for the feedback. I will update the OP right now.

[Seto]

I find it much better now, but there's still an issue:

How does Air protect them? Honestly, "go outside city limits in the plains" seems more like "Earth" to me, because you still very much have the ground under your feet.
... Wait, I got it. A "shield" is something you have around you or in front of you. So you need to have air around you, instead of other elements, which means you need to be outside. Maybe make that clearer in the first DS check: that "shields" are what's around you, and for example buildings are shields of Earth.

[Jon_Dahl]

I find it much better now, but there's still an issue:

How does Air protect them? Honestly, "go outside city limits in the plains" seems more like "Earth" to me, because you still very much have the ground under your feet.
... Wait, I got it. A "shield" is something you have around you or in front of you. So you need to have air around you, instead of other elements, which means you need to be outside. Maybe make that clearer in the first DS check: that "shields" are what's around you, and for example buildings are shields of Earth.

You got it very much right. I will also update the DS check as you have suggested, but I will not underline "shielding" that much.
The OP has been updated!

[Roadie]

If I was in this game, I would be completely lost at this and probably kind of angry that I was expected to understand the gibberish.

But, I don't like riddles.

[Honest Tiefling]

I worry that the solution the players come up with will be Earth. Why? Because how do you shield it, if your shield is made of the very stuff you're trying to shield? And have you ever tried to shield yourself with air, fire, or water? With water you'll drown, with fire, you're on freaking fire now, and air is just crap at it. And with the earthquake, air isn't even shielding anything, it's just kinda there, chilling, doing nothing. Air can't shield you from an earthquake, so that doesn't even begin to make sense.

If the earthquake is paired with volcanic activity, which is not uncommon, air is now full of smoke. We trusted you, air!

[Jeff the Green]

In general, every single problem you present to the PCs should be solvable by at least two of three methods:

1) Violence. Kill monster, break down door, destroy statue, problem solved.

2) Expertise. The PCs are really good at something besides combat, be it diplomacy, stealing stuff, casting magic spells, etc.

3) Social Engineering. You know somebody that can remove obstacles, or you have a way to convince an NPC to help you. This is not strictly skill use, which would be the second category, but could be other means, such as bribery, blackmail, or just consulting with allies/contacts/patrons that are inclined to help you or need a favor.

Amen, hallelujah, and hosanna. At least one player is likely playing a character that's more intelligent than them. At least one is playing a character that's more charismatic than them. Let them use their characters.

[Honest Tiefling]

Amen, hallelujah, and hosanna. At least one player is likely playing a character that's more intelligent than them. At least one is playing a character that's more charismatic than them. Let them use their characters.

Else you get the situation of the 14 charisma player leading the party with the 4 charisma half-orc...

[Jon_Dahl]

Amen, hallelujah, and hosanna. At least one player is likely playing a character that's more intelligent than them. At least one is playing a character that's more charismatic than them. Let them use their characters.

I can't be bothered to present multiple options. I can give the players two viable options (the riddle and the DS checks) and then they just have to survive the ordeal. Really.

Of course, if the players offer me some convincing solution that I didn't think of, I will take it.

[Gildedragon]

Option: what causes the earthquake? A drow mining operation? An awakening dragon or cthonic (actually cthonic not lovecraftian cthonic) being stirring? A mad wizard with a strange machine?

[Jon_Dahl]

Option: what causes the earthquake? A drow mining operation? An awakening dragon or cthonic (actually cthonic not lovecraftian cthonic) being stirring? A mad wizard with a strange machine?

It's purely natural. I'm using it to offer my players postapocalyptic action, exotic monsters and a bunch of newly-unearthed ancient ruins.

[Gildedragon]

Is the campaign just starting? Have it happen after the apocalypse

[Jeff the Green]

I can't be bothered to present multiple options. I can give the players two viable options (the riddle and the DS checks) and then they just have to survive the ordeal. Really.

That is atrocious DMing. If you can't present multiple options, you shouldn't be the DM.

[Jon_Dahl]

That is atrocious DMing. If you can't present multiple options, you shouldn't be the DM.

Thank you for the feedback.

[Ashtagon]

That is atrocious DMing. If you can't present multiple options, you shouldn't be the DM.


"You open the door, and see five orcs."

"THIS IS RAILROADING"

"Whut?"

"Why can't they be hobgoblins? Or xephs?"

Sometimes, a little scripting is okay, guys.

[Jon_Dahl]

"You open the door, and see five orcs."

"THIS IS RAILROADING"

"Whut?"

"Why can't they be hobgoblins? Or xephs?"

Sometimes, a little scripting is okay, guys.

I know that you didn't post that to defend me, but since the comment was directed at me, I wish to say that it's ok. Really, it's ok.

[Jeff the Green]

"You open the door, and see five orcs."

"THIS IS RAILROADING"

"Whut?"

"Why can't they be hobgoblins? Or xephs?"

Sometimes, a little scripting is okay, guys.

Please. You have an insane number of choices there.

"I charge."

"I roll diplomacy."

"I cast disguise self into a sexy orc."

"I cast invisibility and sneak past them."

"I run away."

[Jon_Dahl]

Please. You have an insane number of choices there.

"I charge."

"I roll diplomacy."

"I cast disguise self into a sexy orc."

"I cast invisibility and sneak past them."

"I run away."

Please, we have already established that I'm an atrocious DM. Can we get back to the subject, please?

[Knaight]

Putting aside how solvable the riddle is, it's more than a little trite and boring. My immediate response upon reading it was pretty much "Ugh, tedious classical elements riddle again". The rewrite is at least a little better, but still pretty bad.

[Jeff the Green]

Please, we have already established that I'm an atrocious DM. Can we get back to the subject, please?

I didn't say that. I said on this one issue you are making a bad choice for both you and your players. I'm guilty of atrocious DMing on occasion, but I don't think I'm an atrocious DM. The point is that you are certainly capable of offering other options; it probably requires 15 extra minutes of prep.

Edit: On second thought, that was definitely hyperbole, and probably unwarranted. It is still a bad choice that will make your players frustrated. It also won't take much time to fix.

[Red Fel]

Please. You have an insane number of choices there.

But the DM doesn't have to lay all of those choices out for you.

I think the point Jon_Dahl was making was that he would be amenable to player suggestions, but only planned to provide them himself with two options.

Which I think is fair. Being willing to entertain player-created alternatives is a good thing. And a DM who is receptive to such things doesn't have to prepare for every possible option; and even one who does prepare doesn't have to lay it all out.

Letting the players know that options exist, and giving them a few choices, is sufficient, if you're willing to listen to any they come up with.

That said, JD, I'm still a bit unclear as to the function of this riddle. What is it there for? What happens if the PCs succeed or fail? I'm not 100% clear on just how lethal failure is.

As a rule, I'm against riddle roadblocks, because they don't add to the game; they distract from it. It's one thing if a riddle has (good outcome) and (no outcome) as its options for success and failure, respectively; then it's an optional encounter with a fun benefit. That's great. Even (good outcome) or (bad outcome) has promise, so long as the (bad outcome) isn't a TPK or the campaign effectively stopping, because then it's a risk/reward calculation.

It's another thing entirely if the riddle has (no outcome) or (bad outcome/no progress) as its options for success and failure; at that point, it exists for the sole purpose of standing between the PCs and the plot, and as a rule the players are unlikely to get it right unless (1) the DM is extremely flexible on what may constitute a right answer, or (2) the players have direct insight into the DM's mind.

[Jon_Dahl]

Putting aside how solvable the riddle is, it's more than a little trite and boring. My immediate response upon reading it was pretty much "Ugh, tedious classical elements riddle again". The rewrite is at least a little better, but still pretty bad.

I understand where you're coming from. I'd like to argue that having these sort of familiar riddle elements makes the riddle more easily approachable. Something more exotic and clever might make the riddle a bit more alien and less predictable. If you want, I can think of something more innovative, but I can tell you that anything less cliché is BOUND to confuse players. I like to pick my battles. Hence, I make my monsters, locales and stories innovative and surprising, but riddles should follow a familiar form and be easy and familiar.

Feel free to disagree. Other than that, I don't know what "badness" is in this case.

[Jeff the Green]

But the DM doesn't have to lay all of those choices out for you.

For some they do. If there's someone who could help, they have to introduce them or at least hint at their existance.

[Red Fel]

For some they do. If there's someone who could help, they have to introduce them or at least hint at their existance.

But not for the first time when the puzzle is introduced - and that's the single slice of the campaign we're exposed to.

It's possible, for example, that the PCs previously met someone who's a dab hand at riddles. We don't know. And yes, that would be a good use of the social engineering thing. It's also possible that someone has a way to summon or commune with a Sphinx or somesuch; again, we don't know, and it's not the DM's job to remind the PCs, "Say, isn't your familiar a Sphinx?"

Darrin's suggestion - which was great, by the way - simply holds that any scenario should be solvable by at least two of those three methods. It does not require the DM to turn to the players and say, "Now, here's what you can do to solve this problem. You can roll me some skill checks, or try to brute force it, or phone that guy three towns ago. What would you like?"

And JD said he'd be willing to put two options out in front of the players, and listen to other suggestions they may have. I fail to see how that's an unreasonable approach.

[Jon_Dahl]

But the DM doesn't have to lay all of those choices out for you.

I think the point Jon_Dahl was making was that he would be amenable to player suggestions, but only planned to provide them himself with two options.



That is what I was trying to say. I thought I was clear. :smalleek:


That said, JD, I'm still a bit unclear as to the function of this riddle. What is it there for? What happens if the PCs succeed or fail? I'm not 100% clear on just how lethal failure is.

The lethality of the failure is nothing excessive. They might all get buried alive under some structure. Please look at the earthquake spell. If they all fail their reflex saves and get pinned down, they might die pretty fast. It's still simple: think of lots of simultaneous earthquake spells. There you have it. It's nothing more that than. If they get pinned down, nobody is going to save them unless they yell or something. In that case, someone has to hear the yelling and be willing to help them out in all that chaos. That will require some (skill and luck) rolls, which I will call and roll on the table.


As a rule, I'm against riddle roadblocks, because they don't add to the game; they distract from it. It's one thing if a riddle has (good outcome) and (no outcome) as its options for success and failure, respectively; then it's an optional encounter with a fun benefit. That's great. Even (good outcome) or (bad outcome) has promise, so long as the (bad outcome) isn't a TPK or the campaign effectively stopping, because then it's a risk/reward calculation.

It's another thing entirely if the riddle has (no outcome) or (bad outcome/no progress) as its options for success and failure; at that point, it exists for the sole purpose of standing between the PCs and the plot, and as a rule the players are unlikely to get it right unless (1) the DM is extremely flexible on what may constitute a right answer, or (2) the players have direct insight into the DM's mind.

I'm trying to give my players a decent chance or two avoiding the nasty earthquake spell festival. I'm not determined to give an easy way out, but just something fair. Once I get a consensus that my riddle is fair, it's a done deal.

[Jeff the Green]

And JD said he'd be willing to put two options out in front of the players, and listen to other suggestions they may have. I fail to see how that's an unreasonable approach.

The Decipher Script checks are not an alternate solution; they're just an additional riddle.

[Red Fel]

The lethality of the failure is nothing excessive. They might all get buried alive under some structure. Please look at the earthquake spell. If they all fail their reflex saves and get pinned down, they might die pretty fast. It's still simple: think of lots of simultaneous earthquake spells. There you have it. It's nothing more that than. If they get pinned down, nobody is going to save them unless they yell or something. In that case, someone has to hear the yelling and be willing to help them out in all that chaos. That will require some (skill and luck) rolls, which I will call and roll on the table.

I get that it means that the players will have multiple chances. If they get the riddle wrong, they can roll some saves. If they fail the saves, they can try to dig out. They have multiple chances, and I can respect that.

On the other hand, it's a very literal interpretation of "Rocks fall, everybody dies," isn't it?


I'm trying to give my players a decent chance or two avoiding the nasty earthquake spell festival. I'm not determined to give an easy way out, but just something fair. Once I get a consensus that my riddle is fair, it's a done deal.

I'm less worried about the riddle being fair - whether it is or it isn't depends primarily on the players, rather than on the riddle itself - and more on whether the scenario is fair. Nobody's saying you have to go easy on them, but if the players come up with (1) an effective alternative means to solve the riddle, or (2) a reasonable solution to the riddle, whether it's the one you wanted or not, they should get a pass on being buried alive. At least in my view.

[Jon_Dahl]

I get that it means that the players will have multiple chances. If they get the riddle wrong, they can roll some saves. If they fail the saves, they can try to dig out. They have multiple chances, and I can respect that.

On the other hand, it's a very literal interpretation of "Rocks fall, everybody dies," isn't it?

Yes, it's literally "rocks fall, everybody dies", but I respectfully resent that comparison. I think we can have rocks falling and killing PCs without playing the game "wrongly". I hope you understand what I'm saying here. But in any case, you are right. Rocks fall, everybody dies.


I'm less worried about the riddle being fair - whether it is or it isn't depends primarily on the players, rather than on the riddle itself - and more on whether the scenario is fair. Nobody's saying you have to go easy on them, but if the players come up with (1) an effective alternative means to solve the riddle, or (2) a reasonable solution to the riddle, whether it's the one you wanted or not, they should get a pass on being buried alive. At least in my view.

I promise that (1) and (2) will be options in this riddle/earthquake scenario and very much so. I'm just a bit unsympathetic by nature so it might take more to convince me than your average DM.

[Red Fel]

I promise that (1) and (2) will be options in this riddle/earthquake scenario and very much so. I'm just a bit unsympathic by nature so it might take more to convince me than your average DM.

If you find an "average DM," I'm pretty sure every one of us on this forum would like to meet him. Him and his equally-real unicorn friends.

[Gallowglass]

As far as I can interpret, there isn't any obvious mechanism for the players to stop the earthquake, so this seems to be set up for the meat of the campaign which will come after the destruction?

So all the PCs can really do is save themselves and/or save as many townfolk as they can.

And this riddle is being given to them as a prophecy by some town oracle or such?

“I have seen a vision. In this vision I saw a garden laying on the hill before the sea, beautiful and lush with growth and life. Then the sky grew dark, wind lashed the trees and blew the gate wide open and I saw, rising up from the hill a great black plowhorse, its skin covered with the dust of the field.

“This horse was known to me, solid and strong, the mark of the harness etched deep into its back. I knew this horse as a loyal friend to me, who had born me aloft for all of my years. But now the black stallion grew angry. It reared up, throwing off the harness and stamped hard among the garden, rending the soil and thrashing destruction all around it, a madness in its eyes.

“As it destroyed the garden, I saw two more horses appear, through the gate, one red mare like blood the other pale green. The red mare breathed upon the garden and I saw the leaves curl, the vines blacken, the fruit of the harvest wither and sail away. The green mare rushed through the garden, trampling all in its wake.

“I cried out, and fell, the blackness of the earth closing over my head. But then I saw the fourth horse. So white and beautiful and pure, it was almost transparent. It cantered through the shattered remains of the garden and stopped before me and knelt. I reached up and clutched its mane and the white stallion took me clear of the garden, clear of the madness caused by the black stallion.”

“I knew the garden was lost, consumed by the three mad horses, but I knew that as long as the gardener remained, the garden would grow again."

[Deadline]

I think we can have rocks falling and killing PCs without playing the game "wrongly".

The only way to play the game "wrongly" is to do so in a manner where both you and your players aren't having fun. If riddle solving is a thing your players enjoy, you're on the right track.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of riddle solving, because it's pretty much always done or presented badly. The only time I've enjoyed it was doing the old "Challenge of Champions" they used to have in Dragon Magazine. That's also the only time any of the groups I've played with have enjoyed it as well. I'm guessing quite a few of us here have not had entertaining experiences with them.

[Jon_Dahl]

Gallowglass,
you are right at all points.

The prophecy is given by a high priest of a well-respected religion, not some town oracle, but that doesn't change anything.

[Jon_Dahl]

The only way to play the game "wrongly" is to do so in a manner where both you and your players aren't having fun. If riddle solving is a thing your players enjoy, you're on the right track.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of riddle solving, because it's pretty much always done or presented badly. The only time I've enjoyed it was doing the old "Challenge of Champions" they used to have in Dragon Magazine. That's also the only time any of the groups I've played with have enjoyed it as well. I'm guessing quite a few of us here have not had entertaining experiences with them.

This is an interesting point.
I think my players don't like riddles that much, but... I have yet to meet a person who doesn't smile when they get a riddle right. I think that the whole process of riddle-solving is tormenting and frustrating, but once you get the riddle right, the effect is more visible than slaying a dragon. I'm not sure, though.

[Deadline]

This is an interesting point.
I think my players don't like riddles that much, but... I have yet to meet a person who doesn't smile when they get a riddle right. I think that the whole process of riddle-solving is tormenting and frustrating, but once you get the riddle right, the effect is more visible than slaying a dragon. I'm not sure, though.

Sure, when we are talking about the typical riddle process, with a well designed riddle and all the time in the world to ponder it (assuming it's interesting enough to make the pondering fun). (I have personal experience with this, I really enjoyed working my way to the solution of Egyptian Jukebox (http://www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Jukebox-Conundrum-Nick-Bantock/dp/0670849448))

However, when you add a time limit and fatal consequences for getting it wrong (especially when using a poorly constructed riddle that could have multiple "right" answers), it doesn't carry that same effect. If you want to get that effect, then you'll need to do what others have already suggested, and not make the players guess your "one true answer", but instead consider any reasonable sounding answer to be correct. That way the plot moves forward and the players get to feel awesome.

[Nightcanon]

That is what I was trying to say. I thought I was clear. :smalleek:



The lethality of the failure is nothing excessive. They might all get buried alive under some structure. Please look at the earthquake spell. If they all fail their reflex saves and get pinned down, they might die pretty fast. It's still simple: think of lots of simultaneous earthquake spells. There you have it. It's nothing more that than. If they get pinned down, nobody is going to save them unless they yell or something. In that case, someone has to hear the yelling and be willing to help them out in all that chaos. That will require some (skill and luck) rolls, which I will call and roll on the table.

I'm trying to give my players a decent chance or two avoiding the nasty earthquake spell festival. I'm not determined to give an easy way out, but just something fair. Once I get a consensus that my riddle is fair, it's a done deal.
Seriously though, if the purpose is to set up a post-apocalyptic campaign, unearth some new ruins and so on, why start off with 'high priest makes cryptic prophesy, which you as players have to decode correctly by mid afternoon or rocks fall, everyone dies'? If you want to start with the PCs buried under the remains of their base of operations, just do that; if you want them to see it hit from outside the city, have the earthquake timed to occur when they are coming back from an adventure on the plains. A 'riddle' seems like an arbitrary way of deciding the start state for the rest of the campaign.

[Jon_Dahl]

Seriously though, if the purpose is to set up a post-apocalyptic campaign, unearth some new ruins and so on, why start off with 'high priest makes cryptic prophesy, which you as players have to decode correctly by mid afternoon or rocks fall, everyone dies'? If you want to start with the PCs buried under the remains of their base of operations, just do that; if you want them to see it hit from outside the city, have the earthquake timed to occur when they are coming back from an adventure on the plains. A 'riddle' seems like an arbitrary way of deciding the start state for the rest of the campaign.

I see, but... Wouldn't it be nice that the players could influence the starting point of the post-apolyptic adventure(s)? In your suggestion, I get to decide how things start out. That is perfectly fine. But there's just one thing that is missing which is suggested in the DMG that all DMs should do: foreshadowing. A session will end with the prophecy and on the next session the prophecy comes true. How the players act will determine their fate, wholly or partially. The tools that they receive to decide their fate may seem vague or arbitrary (maybe they are), but at least they're something. Who knows, maybe the players will surprise me and think of something brilliant.

[Necrov]

My, I hope constructive, criticism is that I don't feel the riddle is particularly well written. It's counter-intuitive and the repetitive language used doesn't actually lead to the answer in anyway. It's not really a riddle. You'll either get it or you wont. How about...

Today will be a day of great devastation. Of the elements four, one will solidly undo us. Another, will rock the boat and join it's brother. The third shall consider for a time, but fueled by desires shall join the two. Only the last, shall take a deep breath and stand by the people weak.
Know your ally, know your friend. For three will hurt, and one defend.

I feel like that gives people more of a path to work out.
'Solid' = Earth
'Rock the boat' = Water
'Fueled by desires' = Fire
'Deep breath' = Air

But then of course that's only the first layer of the riddle and they need to work out what it's actually trying to tell them. Earthquake into tidal wave into the fires of anarchy (also hinted at with desire.)

[Mr Adventurer]

What level is the party?

Does Read Languages spell, or Tongues, let you read the book without Decipher Script?

[Jon_Dahl]

What level is the party?

Does Read Languages spell, or Tongues, let you read the book without Decipher Script?

Ranging from 8th to 11th level.

Those spells don't work since it's archaic common in poetic verse. Those spells will do nothing to improve the readability.

[Hal0Badger]

A well-known and trusted high priest gives a prophecy:
Today will a day of great devastation. One of Elements will undo us and two will come to its aid. Only the element we cannot shield will shield us. Any other shield that shields us will kill us.
Stay away from the Element and its allies! This is a day when we will have nothing hide!

I don’t know the riddle, but here’s a book prophecies in ancient, archaic common. There is a chapter that talks about dreams of elements and death. If you know how to read it, please do.

The book of prophecies:
Three successful Decripher script DC 20 checks needed to understand the prophecies. The first successful check will reveal that shields are what you have around you (not under you). The second will tell that some unknown reason, the PCs shouldn’t be at sea today. The third check will tell the PCs that there’s going to be a massive earthquake that day and then the NPCs will help the PCs and themselves to survive the earthquake with minimal damage.

Stay away from anything that can shield us. That should be very simple: anything that can cover you, shield you etc. will kill you (a house, a castle, any roof over your head etc.)
Stay away from earth, fire and water. Should be simple enough, really!
And the element that you cannot shield is air. You can shield any other element, like a pool of water, a bonfire, a rock...
Air is the solution!

As it stands out, don't make this just the riddle please. When I have time I might post more suggestions, since I love creating riddles/puzzles, but for the time being consider extra options to hint coming disaster: Like an very old fisherman sensing that sea would be deadly and refusing to go out fishing, eventhough the weather is clear for the upcoming weeks. Or, if your town is near an volcanic setup (otherwise I don't see how fire attacks with earthquake), make a gatherer around the volcanic mountain realize the strange motions of the mountain.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ranging from 8th to 11th level.

Those spells don't work since it's archaic common in poetic verse. Those spells will do nothing to improve the readability.

Do they have access to Commune, Contact Other Plane, and/or Divination?

[Ashtagon]

Do they have access to Commune, Contact Other Plane, and/or Divination?

More to the point, why hasn't that well-known and trusted high priest ever tried those spells on the riddle?

[Nightcanon]

I see, but... Wouldn't it be nice that the players could influence the starting point of the post-apolyptic adventure(s)? In your suggestion, I get to decide how things start out. That is perfectly fine. But there's just one thing that is missing which is suggested in the DMG that all DMs should do: foreshadowing. A session will end with the prophecy and on the next session the prophecy comes true. How the players act will determine their fate, wholly or partially. The tools that they receive to decide their fate may seem vague or arbitrary (maybe they are), but at least they're something. Who knows, maybe the players will surprise me and think of something brilliant.

Fair enough, and I'm less concerned than I was (your initial post did say 'it will be Very Deadly', and you seem to have rowed back a bit, in that for the PCs at least not solving the riddle isn't going to kill them).
I assume the PCs can't prevent the Earthquake? What do you expect them to do with their few hours' warning, if they work it out? Not much time to evacuate the city, but enough to leave themselves, which might set up interesting alignment-based personal conflicts and discussion with authorities- if they work out what is coming...

[Jon_Dahl]

More to the point, why hasn't that well-known and trusted high priest ever tried those spells on the riddle?

He did to no avail.


Fair enough, and I'm less concerned than I was (your initial post did say 'it will be Very Deadly', and you seem to have rowed back a bit, in that for the PCs at least not solving the riddle isn't going to kill them).
I assume the PCs can't prevent the Earthquake? What do you expect them to do with their few hours' warning, if they work it out? Not much time to evacuate the city, but enough to leave themselves, which might set up interesting alignment-based personal conflicts and discussion with authorities- if they work out what is coming...

I'm still saying Very Deadly. With very bad saving throws they could all die in the earthquake, but that is absolutely nothing new in this game.

They can't prevent the earthquake. I don't expect them to do nothing, but if I were playing, I'd contact my high-level NPC friend and political allies and try to save as many people as I could. I'm glad that my players don't like to have NPC doing things for them, so this thought is purely theoretical.

[AnimeTheCat]

“I have seen a vision. In this vision I saw a garden laying on the hill before the sea, beautiful and lush with growth and life. Then the sky grew dark, wind lashed the trees and blew the gate wide open and I saw, rising up from the hill a great black plowhorse, its skin covered with the dust of the field.

“This horse was known to me, solid and strong, the mark of the harness etched deep into its back. I knew this horse as a loyal friend to me, who had born me aloft for all of my years. But now the black stallion grew angry. It reared up, throwing off the harness and stamped hard among the garden, rending the soil and thrashing destruction all around it, a madness in its eyes.

“As it destroyed the garden, I saw two more horses appear, through the gate, one red mare like blood the other pale green. The red mare breathed upon the garden and I saw the leaves curl, the vines blacken, the fruit of the harvest wither and sail away. The green mare rushed through the garden, trampling all in its wake.

“I cried out, and fell, the blackness of the earth closing over my head. But then I saw the fourth horse. So white and beautiful and pure, it was almost transparent. It cantered through the shattered remains of the garden and stopped before me and knelt. I reached up and clutched its mane and the white stallion took me clear of the garden, clear of the madness caused by the black stallion.”

“I knew the garden was lost, consumed by the three mad horses, but I knew that as long as the gardener remained, the garden would grow again."

This I like. Its a true to form prophecy (like Joseph from the bible had the dreams, or the Oracle at Delphi would tell cryptic stories about what is to come).

What the OP stated was definitely much more of a riddle, and a slightly poor one as far as riddles go. Its, unfortunately, like the ancient Babylonian riddles that are basic "what am I?" riddles without the tag line at the end. An example of a riddle like this is "who becomes pregnant without conceiving, who becomes fat without eating?" which can be possibly a raincloud or any other thing you can think of that fits the two descriptors. Babylonian riddles are notoriously bad due to their ambiguous nature.

I'm thinking that you want, if you want a riddle and not a prophecy, something more finite and precise. If you want something like that you need to limit every option down to a single possible entity or option. I find it easiest to start with the exact thing that will answer the question. From what I gather, that answer is "Get away from the city and stay off the ocean". Kind of a long answer, to be fair, but still doable. So, next you'll want to find what that answer will allow you to do, avoid, bypass, or defeat. This can be a means to avoid a trap (essentially your earthquake is this), defeat a "boss", bypass a challenge, etc. In this case you want them to avoid a trap, aka not get squashed by falling buildings.

Now it is time to build. You know your danger (the outcome if not solved) and you know your answer (the thing that will solve the riddle for you). So how do you fill it in? This is where the thesaurus and dictionary come in to big play. You already stated that you want the elemental motif, that's great and keeps it simple. "The elements of four; earth, water, fire, and air, shall come to bear on one terrible day." You have now limited the options to one of the four element mentioned in the riddle. "One will be angered and bring its wrath upon the world." Now you know that one of the elements will start something. "The two that follow assist in its fury." This is a tricky bit because, if they're paying attention, they will see that water and fire are both after earth which will give them the answer to the two that aid it. "Walls will fall and glass will shatter." Giving hints that you're talking about an earthquake. "The only refuge that one can take is none at all." hints that you don't want to be near any sort of thing that can be considered "refuge". "Hold close that which you can not see, and flee the ire of the other three" within the riddle it tells you to stay away from the water and reinforces that you should stay away from buildings, if you have figured out that it's an earthquake.

So now you have something more like a riddle, while being a little prophetic:
"The elements of four; earth, water, fire, and air, shall come to bear on one terrible day."
"One will be angered and bring its wrath upon the world."
"The two that follow assist in its fury."
"Walls will fall and glass will shatter."
"The only refuge that one can take is none at all."
"Hold close that which you can not see, and flee the ire of the other three"

I think this still carries the overall desired outcome, while still being cryptic. It also offers the players a chance to figure it out without having to decipher script or to network, but because you have those options in if they players can't figure it out, maybe their characters can.

[Ashtagon]

It's probably a bit late for the OP now, but the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide has half of an entire chapter devoted to writing good engaging prophecies. It should be required reading for anyone who is making prophecies for their game.

[Jon_Dahl]

It's probably a bit late for the OP now, but the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide has half of an entire chapter devoted to writing good engaging prophecies. It should be required reading for anyone who is making prophecies for their game.

No, it's not too late. I decided not to use this riddle before next month. I have to say that I don't like AnimeTheCat's riddle for the simple reasons that there's this "Walls will fall and glass will shatter" part which, in my humble opinion, is way too literal.

"Hmm, we have this riddle here that walls will fall. So I wonder if walls will fall? Oh, what do you know? Walls fell!"

Please, for the love of Gary Gygax, let's not make riddles that actually tell what's going to happen. In my opinion, a riddle should not tell the truth straightforwardly at any point. You may not agree, but I'd rather give out my DM seat to someone else than make that kind of riddle. Please.

[Necrov]

No, it's not too late. I decided not to use this riddle before next month. I have to say that I don't like AnimeTheCat's riddle for the simple reasons that there's this "Walls will fall and glass will shatter" part which, in my humble opinion, is way too literal.

"Hmm, we have this riddle here that walls will fall. So I wonder if walls will fall? Oh, what do you know? Walls fell!"

Please, for the love of Gary Gygax, let's not make riddles that actually tell what's going to happen. In my opinion, a riddle should not tell the truth straightforwardly at any point. You may not agree, but I'd rather give out my DM seat to someone else than make that kind of riddle. Please.

Well err... quite?

But walls will fall and glass shattering isn't literally telling anyone much at all.

I am inclined to disagree with you about how riddles should be structured. In fact; a great many good riddles offer the answer tantalizingly within reach. Heck, I offered you an example earlier in the thread which you didn't reply to. Though I think to be honest, you should make a decision on what the subject of your riddle should be. At the moment it's both revealing the earthquake and telling them how to survive. Maybe pick directing them to one and letting them infer the other all by themselves.

Either way, let's not invoke old GG. I'm sure he had no love for 'The Cat wanders over hot tin roof, owls hoot at midnight' style riddles either.


@AnimeTheCat I like your riddle, nicely constructed in a prophecy like tone. With just enough literal hint with poetic verse. 9/10 would riddle/prophecy again.

[Jon_Dahl]

Necrov,

I like your riddle better. Apparently there's some confusion here whether I want a riddle or a prophecy, so I will try to crystal clear now:

I want bunch of sentences that make a coherent whole. These words give a hint that the people hearing the words should perhaps avoid the sea or staying indoors during that day and should direct the listeners to stay in the open air. The hints may not, under any circumstances, say anything directly. The hints may be very unclear despite being a coherent whole.

[AnimeTheCat]

No, it's not too late. I decided not to use this riddle before next month. I have to say that I don't like AnimeTheCat's riddle for the simple reasons that there's this "Walls will fall and glass will shatter" part which, in my humble opinion, is way too literal.

"Hmm, we have this riddle here that walls will fall. So I wonder if walls will fall? Oh, what do you know? Walls fell!"

Please, for the love of Gary Gygax, let's not make riddles that actually tell what's going to happen. In my opinion, a riddle should not tell the truth straightforwardly at any point. You may not agree, but I'd rather give out my DM seat to someone else than make that kind of riddle. Please.

To be fair, you're right. It is a bit literal. However, its simply an example. I am not by any means telling you that you have to use that riddle. I was trying to give you a tool to build your own from your own mind. I doubt that anyone here will be able to accurately see exactly what it is your planning, simply because we don't see with your eyes. I tried to outline the process I used to make the riddle so that maybe you could use it with your own vision in mind. Additionally, if that's the only part that you don't like, it can be removed. It doesn't tell any specifically vital information and the riddle is solvable without it. Without that line it solidly fits in to your described vision.

[Mr Adventurer]

What mechanism will you apply to allow the characters to work out this riddle?

[Jon_Dahl]

To be fair, you're right. It is a bit literal. However, its simply an example. I am not by any means telling you that you have to use that riddle. I was trying to give you a tool to build your own from your own mind. I doubt that anyone here will be able to accurately see exactly what it is your planning, simply because we don't see with your eyes. I tried to outline the process I used to make the riddle so that maybe you could use it with your own vision in mind. Additionally, if that's the only part that you don't like, it can be removed. It doesn't tell any specifically vital information and the riddle is solvable without it. Without that line it solidly fits in to your described vision.

That's more than reasonable and actually very helpful. It's just that that particular example didn't strike me as good. It doesn't mean that it isn't good, but it simply means that we have different understanding how we want to riddle or show prophecies. I'm not willing to define anymore if I want a riddle or a prophecy, that conversation is simply too heavy for me.


What mechanism will you apply to allow the characters to work out this riddle?

None.

[Gildedragon]

The prophecy needs three things
One: what is to come
"the great mothers grow angry, and wish to devour their brood; one shall scoop them with roaring arms, the other knock them into her myriad maws" (the sea and the land, waves and fisures in the earth)
Two: when is it to come (what omens foretell the event (if any))
"...They shall wake, not now, but soon. When Grey Tower is raised high, when the herald of dawn thrice fails to cry... " (Smoking volcano, three days after the birds have fled (and thus don't sing at dawn).
Three: what can be done
"There is no sucor, nor taming their wroth"
Yeap you can't stop this
"No one shall survive but those under the aegis of heaven and a destroyer, far from the other, for every man has but one mother" (you need to evacuate to sea, or inland)

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm going to present this riddle/prophecy/whatever tomorrow.

The idea is to warn the PCs not to get killed by an earthquake + a giant wave + massive fire in the city caused by the earthquake. They PCs are not required to understand the warning. They can also make a Decipher Script check to understand the warning. The warning must NOT be literal and it must NOT indicate anything directly.

Will I go with what I have in the OP or not? If not, then give me something better, please... But like I said, you can't say any of the stuff directly, please.

[Jon_Dahl]

The prophecy needs three things
One: what is to come
"the great mothers grow angry, and wish to devour their brood; one shall scoop them with roaring arms, the other knock them into her myriad maws" (the sea and the land, waves and fisures in the earth)
Two: when is it to come (what omens foretell the event (if any))
"...They shall wake, not now, but soon. When Grey Tower is raised high, when the herald of dawn thrice fails to cry... " (Smoking volcano, three days after the birds have fled (and thus don't sing at dawn).
Three: what can be done
"There is no sucor, nor taming their wroth"
Yeap you can't stop this
"No one shall survive but those under the aegis of heaven and a destroyer, far from the other, for every man has but one mother" (you need to evacuate to sea, or inland)

I don't get the last bit. I can't say to that my players. I don't even get it. Maybe if I just read it without understanding it, right?

[Jon_Dahl]

As far as I can interpret, there isn't any obvious mechanism for the players to stop the earthquake, so this seems to be set up for the meat of the campaign which will come after the destruction?

So all the PCs can really do is save themselves and/or save as many townfolk as they can.

And this riddle is being given to them as a prophecy by some town oracle or such?

“I have seen a vision. In this vision I saw a garden laying on the hill before the sea, beautiful and lush with growth and life. Then the sky grew dark, wind lashed the trees and blew the gate wide open and I saw, rising up from the hill a great black plowhorse, its skin covered with the dust of the field.

“This horse was known to me, solid and strong, the mark of the harness etched deep into its back. I knew this horse as a loyal friend to me, who had born me aloft for all of my years. But now the black stallion grew angry. It reared up, throwing off the harness and stamped hard among the garden, rending the soil and thrashing destruction all around it, a madness in its eyes.

“As it destroyed the garden, I saw two more horses appear, through the gate, one red mare like blood the other pale green. The red mare breathed upon the garden and I saw the leaves curl, the vines blacken, the fruit of the harvest wither and sail away. The green mare rushed through the garden, trampling all in its wake.

“I cried out, and fell, the blackness of the earth closing over my head. But then I saw the fourth horse. So white and beautiful and pure, it was almost transparent. It cantered through the shattered remains of the garden and stopped before me and knelt. I reached up and clutched its mane and the white stallion took me clear of the garden, clear of the madness caused by the black stallion.”

“I knew the garden was lost, consumed by the three mad horses, but I knew that as long as the gardener remained, the garden would grow again."

I don't quite understand how this prophecy would help the players in any way? They are trying to survive an earthquake, right?

[Gildedragon]

I don't get the last bit. I can't say to that my players. I don't even get it. Maybe if I just read it without understanding it, right?
What is obscure?
The "has but one mother" bit? It aludes to the first line where the sea and land are referred to as The Mothers

[Syll]

This is an interesting point.
I think my players don't like riddles that much, but... I have yet to meet a person who doesn't smile when they get a riddle right. I think that the whole process of riddle-solving is tormenting and frustrating, but once you get the riddle right, the effect is more visible than slaying a dragon. I'm not sure, though.

My DM sprung tomb of horrors on us once. That was when we, as a party, discovered we are really, really dumb at riddles. It was maddeningly frustrating, and i have been wary of them since.

the only riddle we "solved" was my realization that i was wearing a ring of adamantine touch and we got through by punching holes in walls until we ran out of dead ends.

The whole multi-session experience just made us feel inept.

[Jon_Dahl]

What is obscure?
The "has but one mother" bit? It aludes to the first line where the sea and land are referred to as The Mothers

I'm afraid the whole thing. If I asked you what is obscure about the question "If afner an gasdsaar, will I obbod?", you'd feel the same as I do right now.

[noce]

Does any of your players have ranks in Dechipher Scripts? The hints could be too simple or almost impossible to dechiper.

Also, it's obviously better to go outside in the plains, but I think sailing to sea wouldn't be so bad. Drowning rules are so crappy that anyone could survive for three minutes or more, so there's time to react.
Just to be clear, I think this is a good thing: if they get the riddle wrong and guess water instead of air, they're still more likely to survive than staying in the city.

[Sliver]

I don't quite understand how this prophecy would help the players in any way? They are trying to survive an earthquake, right?

The three elements are clearly presented as destructive, the first three horses, and the fourth horse, representing air, is the savior. It hits the same points your riddle does, but does so in form that fits prophecy very well. It's also clearer than what your original post has... It's my favorite from those presented.

[Andezzar]

What's preventing the PCs from just using gaseous form or ethereal jaunt to be unaffected by the earthquake? Does the earthquake affect the whole world or can they simply teleport away?

Can't the high priest gate them and everyone else away?

[Gildedragon]

I'm afraid the whole thing. If I asked you what is obscure about the question "If afner an gasdsaar, will I obbod?", you'd feel the same as I do right now.
I'd ask what the non-English words mean...
Also this whole deal is late in the coming so, but I'll try to explain



Three: what can be done
"There is no sucor, nor taming their wroth"
Yeap you can't stop this
"No one shall survive but those under the aegis of heaven and a destroyer, far from the other, for every man has but one mother" (you need to evacuate to sea, or inland)

Firstly, only the stuff in between quotations is the prophecy; the rest of the stuff is commentary on the prophecy and it's plainspeak meaning.

The first line is meant to say that the event is unavoidable. There is no one coming to help, no succor (I didn't notice the typo until just now); nor can one do anything to prevent the event (nature's wrath can't be tamed).

The second line is perhaps plainer:
No one survives UNLESS they seek refuge under the sky, particularly a shield-shaped sky (aegis is both shield and protection), that is a sky with a clear, clean horizon (like that of the plains or sea); the line then adds the mother bit a to provide another clue as to the expected course of action. It allows another chance to get that the the characters have to leave the danger-zone that is the coast and be wholly on the land or wholly on the ocean.
The idea being that it is very important for the PCs to gtfo of the town, and thus are given two clues to that. Figuring the precise nature of the disaster is only for fluff.

[Andezzar]

The problem is, on the open sea the PCs (and anyone with them) is connected to two elements (water and air). If you can only be engulfed by one you would still be in trouble.
While being away from the coast might protect them from lava/ash rain, collapsing buildings and similar hazards, it might not protect them from a tsunami or underwater volcanic eruptions that might be linked to the earthquake.

[Jon_Dahl]

I did the prophecy, they didn't get it, they failed Decipher Script pretty badly, and they went through the ordeal and it was very easy for them. That's all.

[Honest Tiefling]

I did the prophecy, they didn't get it, they failed Decipher Script pretty badly, and they went through the ordeal and it was very easy for them. That's all.

Yes, but did they enjoy the challenge? All our arguing is moot in comparison to that.

[Jon_Dahl]

Yes, but did they enjoy the challenge? All our arguing is moot in comparison to that.

Yes, mostly because they thought that what I did was unique. One of the players has been playing D&D for over 20 years and he did not remember a single incidence of a massive natural disaster in any adventure or anything like that in (A)D&D. It was different and fresh for them.

The death toll was 2,700 killed by the earthquake, 1,000 by the tsunami (which came 30 minutes after the first quake) and 300 by fires. The city had a population of 49,000 before that day. I'm going to have mild aftershake in two hours after the tsunami, but that will happen in the next session.

Right now the PCs have been tasked by some panicked guard captain, who didn't even ask what their names were, to protect the embassy quarter. A band of armed men have entered there and one of the guard sergeants have joined them. I was thinking that they are a cult of Nerull that wants to start wars by killing ambassadors.

[Jon_Dahl]

I just can't figure out how I should give out XP for the whole thing...

[noce]

I just can't figure out how I should give out XP for the whole thing...

Consider several magical traps, one for each earthquake. Each trap has CR 9. Determine the Encounter Level as if they were monsters.

[Deadline]

Congratulations on running a session that the players enjoyed, and for pulling some adventure hooks out of it! It may not have turned out like you expected, but if everyone had fun, it's a success all the same.

As far as how to award XP, you could either ad hoc it, or do as noce suggests and determine XP as if each natural disaster was a trap.

[Jon_Dahl]

I've been thinking about this and I just wanted to say that I disagree with everyone who has criticized the prophecy, because the core of the prophecy is that three elements are attacking. So one is not attacking, right? And since the one that can aid you (i.e. not kill you) is the only one that you can't shield. You can shield earth, you can shield fire, you can shield water, but you can't shield air. So figuring this out should be feasible. It does NOT have to be easy. It is feasible. So it wasn't a bad prophecy, it was just a difficult one. And this sort of riddle-type things don't have to be easy. I would've awarded the current APL+2 worth of XP if they had figured it out.

[Ashtagon]

I've been thinking about this and I just wanted to say that I disagree with everyone who has criticized the prophecy, because the core of the prophecy is that three elements are attacking. So one is not attacking, right? And since the one that can aid you (i.e. not kill you) is the only one that you can't shield. You can shield earth, you can shield fire, you can shield water, but you can't shield air. So figuring this out should be feasible. It does NOT have to be easy. It is feasible. So it wasn't a bad prophecy, it was just a difficult one. And this sort of riddle-type things don't have to be easy. I would've awarded the current APL+2 worth of XP if they had figured it out.

"Only the element that cannot shield us will shield us."

The gust of wind spell makes a pretty decent shield, especially against ranged weapons. I'm sure there are other air spells that can shield. Control winds can function as a more carefully-directed gust of wind. Wind wall is perhaps the definitive air as shield spell. Outside of core there are doubtless others.

Your riddle is unsolvable in any campaign setting that features spellcasters.

[noce]

A wall can shield you from wind.

[Sliver]

I've been thinking about this and I just wanted to say that I disagree with everyone who has criticized the prophecy, because the core of the prophecy is that three elements are attacking.

But it's not about whether the riddle you came up with can be answered with the solution you provided, isn't it? Nobody (that understood what you are getting at) told you that the solution is impossible or doesn't make any sense. It was about whether the riddle in itself is good, no? And a good riddle isn't just about if a certain solution works... Disagreeing with everyone is... Interesting. Because you did in fact change the initial riddle. And there were a lot of really good suggestions for alternative ways of presenting your riddle, especially since you wanted it to be presented in the form of a prophecy.

If you don't agree with anyone who posted here, then I can only surmise that you haven't explained what you wanted well enough, and now you are coming back and trying to justify your riddle for... I'm not sure why. That session has passed, so I don't get the point you are trying to make. That you were right?


"Only the element that cannot shield us will shield us."


A wall can shield you from wind.

It's not about wind shielding people, or people being shielded from wind, but air being the element that can't be shielded. If you want to comment about a riddle, where wording is important, be sure that you actually read the riddle.

[Ashtagon]

It's not about wind shielding people, or people being shielded from wind, but air being the element that can't be shielded. If you want to comment about a riddle, where wording is important, be sure that you actually read the riddle.

Doesn't the fact that according to you at least, two people have come up with two alternate interpretations of the meaning of the riddle which make it impossible to solve, make it doubly unfair asa ridfle?

[Jon_Dahl]

But it's not about whether the riddle you came up with can be answered with the solution you provided, isn't it? Nobody (that understood what you are getting at) told you that the solution is impossible or doesn't make any sense. It was about whether the riddle in itself is good, no? And a good riddle isn't just about if a certain solution works... Disagreeing with everyone is... Interesting. Because you did in fact change the initial riddle. And there were a lot of really good suggestions for alternative ways of presenting your riddle, especially since you wanted it to be presented in the form of a prophecy.

If you don't agree with anyone who posted here, then I can only surmise that you haven't explained what you wanted well enough, and now you are coming back and trying to justify your riddle for... I'm not sure why. That session has passed, so I don't get the point you are trying to make. That you were right?


It's not about wind shielding people, or people being shielded from wind, but air being the element that can't be shielded. If you want to comment about a riddle, where wording is important, be sure that you actually read the riddle.

I think I'm just disappointed not to get any clearly better alternative for my riddle-prophecy. The only good ones told what is going to happen too literally, as in "walls will collapse". That's not what I wanted.

[noce]

It's not about wind shielding people, or people being shielded from wind, but air being the element that can't be shielded. If you want to comment about a riddle, where wording is important, be sure that you actually read the riddle.

No reason to be so rude. I read it, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I misunderstood it seems.
I apologize.

[Ashtagon]

No reason to be so rude. I read it, but I'm not a native English speaker, so I misunderstood it seems.
I apologize.

I read it. I am a native English speaker. I have taught English professionally for several years, and volunteered as an adviser on clear communication to low-ranking politicians. And yet I managed to misunderstand it. It's literally not as clear as you think.

(and yeah, I drop my standards for my own writing when on the net. I'm not anal about these things ever moment of my life)

[Sliver]

@Jon_Dahl: Perhaps next time, if you aren't happy with an alternative suggestion, you should say that in response to it and explain why it doesn't work for you. From my point of view, it seemed like you ignored the better suggestions, then went on doing your own thing and coming back to complain that nobody suggested anything better than your own riddle.


Doesn't the fact that according to you at least, two people have come up with two alternate interpretations of the meaning of the riddle which make it impossible to solve, make it doubly unfair as a riddle?

Not really, as I wouldn't say that the alternative interpretations were valid.

The riddle says:

"Only the element we cannot shield will shield us."

You "quoted":

"Only the element that cannot shield us will shield us."

You can't change the wording and then say that because it sounds similar to the original wording, the original wording is bad. If you go about quoting someone, quote them properly.

And noce, I'm sorry, but I don't really see how I was being rude. Riddles are based on wording, so if you choose to comment on a riddle, you should understand it. Calling you out on not understanding the riddle when are implying that it's wrong isn't rude.

I don't see not being a native English speaker as an excuse to comment on something without understanding it. I'm not a native English speaker either.

"I misread it, sorry" is enough. No need to come up with excuses, nor need to be offended when someone points out that you didn't read something well, calling them rude.

[Jon_Dahl]

@Jon_Dahl: Perhaps next time, if you aren't happy with an alternative suggestion, you should say that in response to it and explain why it doesn't work for you. From my point of view, it seemed like you ignored the better suggestions, then went on doing your own thing and coming back to complain that nobody suggested anything better than your own riddle.

All right then, I will quote every suggestion on this thread and explain why I didn't like them. I did like one of them, though, but I guess I have already mentioned that.

[Jon_Dahl]

Today will be a day of a great many deaths.
One Element will consume us and two will assault from the depths.
One Element will loftly bear us, the Element that the strongest men cannot heft.

Fire doesn’t come from depths.


Death from the depths comes for the city. Fly, you fools!

This is not something a well-respected priest would say. I’d rather eat my arms than imitate LotR.

There comes a great Devastation, and only those favored by the heaven shall escape. That which is whole shall be unmade, the mountains of man shall be lowered to the deep. The earth shall make our grave, and salty tears our shroud. There is no deliverance but that granted for us under the vast skies.

This one explains which elements to avoid. No deal.


“I have seen a vision. In this vision I saw a garden laying on the hill before the sea, beautiful and lush with growth and life. Then the sky grew dark, wind lashed the trees and blew the gate wide open and I saw, rising up from the hill a great black plowhorse, its skin covered with the dust of the field.

“This horse was known to me, solid and strong, the mark of the harness etched deep into its back. I knew this horse as a loyal friend to me, who had born me aloft for all of my years. But now the black stallion grew angry. It reared up, throwing off the harness and stamped hard among the garden, rending the soil and thrashing destruction all around it, a madness in its eyes.

“As it destroyed the garden, I saw two more horses appear, through the gate, one red mare like blood the other pale green. The red mare breathed upon the garden and I saw the leaves curl, the vines blacken, the fruit of the harvest wither and sail away. The green mare rushed through the garden, trampling all in its wake.

“I cried out, and fell, the blackness of the earth closing over my head. But then I saw the fourth horse. So white and beautiful and pure, it was almost transparent. It cantered through the shattered remains of the garden and stopped before me and knelt. I reached up and clutched its mane and the white stallion took me clear of the garden, clear of the madness caused by the black stallion.”

“I knew the garden was lost, consumed by the three mad horses, but I knew that as long as the gardener remained, the garden would grow again."

The high priest is supposed to tell the PCs the prophecy. If I had read this out loud to my players, they would have fallen asleep before the end. Not this kind of stuff for dialogue, please.


Today will be a day of great devastation. Of the elements four, one will solidly undo us. Another, will rock the boat and join it's brother. The third shall consider for a time, but fueled by desires shall join the two. Only the last, shall take a deep breath and stand by the people weak.
Know your ally, know your friend. For three will hurt, and one defend.

This one I liked.


"The elements of four; earth, water, fire, and air, shall come to bear on one terrible day."
"One will be angered and bring its wrath upon the world."
"The two that follow assist in its fury."
"Walls will fall and glass will shatter."
"The only refuge that one can take is none at all."
"Hold close that which you can not see, and flee the ire of the other three"

Too literal. You can’t say what will happen, such as “walls will fall”.


"the great mothers grow angry, and wish to devour their brood; one shall scoop them with roaring arms, the other knock them into her myriad maws" (the sea and the land, waves and fisures in the earth)
Two: when is it to come (what omens foretell the event (if any))
"...They shall wake, not now, but soon. When Grey Tower is raised high, when the herald of dawn thrice fails to cry... " (Smoking volcano, three days after the birds have fled (and thus don't sing at dawn).
Three: what can be done
"There is no sucor, nor taming their wroth"
Yeap you can't stop this
"No one shall survive but those under the aegis of heaven and a destroyer, far from the other, for every man has but one mother"

I don’t even understand what this says. We don’t play in English so there’s no way I would be able to translate this.

So all in all, the riddles were too straightforward and too literal.

[Ashtagon]

...

The riddle says:

"Only the element we cannot shield will shield us."

You "quoted":

"Only the element that cannot shield us will shield us."

You can't change the wording and then say that because it sounds similar to the original wording, the original wording is bad. If you go about quoting someone, quote them properly.

...

"I misread it, sorry" is enough. No need to come up with excuses, nor need to be offended when someone points out that you didn't read something well, calling them rude.

Fair enough. I misread it. It's still invalid as a riddle though.

First, there's at least three other theories of elements I am aware of; two of these (of those I am aware of) would have elements other than "air" which would fit the riddle's description.

Second, "Only the element we cannot shield will shield us." parses as grammatical, but only in the same way that "She died tomorrow." is also grammatical. It relies on some rather advanced language usage to understand, and frankly, not every D&D player is at that level of reading comprehension (nor indeed is the average voter; D&D players are not exceptional either way in this regard).

But as for shielding air... spells that block out air and even spells that remove the need and/or desire for air are totally a thing in D&D. We can indeed shield against air with D&D magic. So that's three ways the riddle fails.

[Jon_Dahl]

Fair enough. I misread it. It's still invalid as a riddle though.

First, there's at least three other theories of elements I am aware of; two of these (of those I am aware of) would have elements other than "air" which would fit the riddle's description.

In D&D, there's only Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Trying to pull any other theory would be very outlandish and riddles don't have to support far-fetched theories. When you solve a riddle, it would be the safest bet to rely on common understanding of how things work. If someone tells you "You can pass if you tell me what coin is usually paid for your thoughts" (a penny, of course) and you reply: "That depends on several factors, but I once read this book and there's a theory..." then the riddles aren't the problem. I'm afraid you are just unsuitable to answer them.

All in all, in D&D the elements are very much fixed. Very very much so. I'm not saying that there's no competing theories in real world and in D&D, but still. The basic four elements... There's no way around this.


Second, "Only the element we cannot shield will shield us." parses as grammatical, but only in the same way that "She died tomorrow." is also grammatical. It relies on some rather advanced language usage to understand, and frankly, not every D&D player is at that level of reading comprehension (nor indeed is the average voter; D&D players are not exceptional either way in this regard).

Fair enough but this come out a bit differently in the language that we use around our table. Hard to say how grammatical it was, really.


But as for shielding air... spells that block out air and even spells that remove the need and/or desire for air are totally a thing in D&D. We can indeed shield against air with D&D magic. So that's three ways the riddle fails.

The PCs didn't have spellcraft so they couldn't think about spells and magic when they tried to figure out the riddle. Had they hired some NPC to do it, that NPC would've said that most likely spells have nothing to with this riddle, and the high priest would've said the same.

[Ashtagon]

In D&D, there's only Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Trying to pull any other theory would be very outlandish and riddles don't have to support far-fetched theories. When you solve a riddle, it would be the safest bet to rely on common understanding of how things work. If someone tells you "You can pass if you tell me what coin is usually paid for your thoughts" (a penny, of course) and you reply: "That depends on several factors, but I once read this book and there's a theory..." then the riddles aren't the problem. I'm afraid you are just unsuitable to answer them.

D&D also presents (through Oriental Adventures) both the Indic-Japanese and the Chinese elemental models. Additionally, Manual of the Planes presented options for both wood and cold as elemental plane options. Granted, those two books aren't part of the core three books, but a) very few people play core and only core, and b) those two books aren't exactly obscure and rare. About the only D&D setting where "these four elemental planes and only these four" is canon is Dark Sun (that elemental theory forms a major plot point in that setting). But all we know for sure is that it is the GM's homebrew setting, and that the GM has not clearly defined to his players what the elemental theory is in his campaign setting.

And that's not even counting other elemental theories I am aware of that aren't in a WotC D&D book.


All in all, in D&D the elements are very much fixed. Very very much so. I'm not saying that there's no competing theories in real world and in D&D, but still. The basic four elements... There's no way around this.

I beg to differ.


Fair enough but this come out a bit differently in the language that we use around our table. Hard to say how grammatical it was, really.



The PCs didn't have spellcraft so they couldn't think about spells and magic when they tried to figure out the riddle. Had they hired some NPC to do it, that NPC would've said that most likely spells have nothing to with this riddle, and the high priest would've said the same.

If the characters lack the Spellcraft skill, I'd question their basic planning skills. But that's an aside, since this was clearly intended to be a player-thinking-oriented task and not a skill-check-oriented task. And players are certainly capable of locating spells such as wind wall (good for shielding against monsters made of air), airy water (good for removing the need to have air at all), water breathing (also removes the need for air), control weather (allows you to shield the skies against severe weather), ease of breath (shields the air you breath from being thinned out), or freedom of breath (shields the air you breath against all sorts of stuff). There's others, I'm sure. But spells can definitely be used to "shield air".

There's nothing in the riddle given to suggest that magic can't be part of the solution, and it's not as if the gods, who gave the high priest this god-given riddle, are unaware of magic. Throwing in an NPC to tell them magic isn't involved is a deus ex machina.

[Jon_Dahl]

D&D also presents (through Oriental Adventures) both the Indic-Japanese and the Chinese elemental models. Additionally, Manual of the Planes presented options for both wood and cold as elemental plane options. Granted, those two books aren't part of the core three books, but a) very few people play core and only core, and b) those two books aren't exactly obscure and rare. About the only D&D setting where "these four elemental planes and only these four" is canon is Dark Sun (that elemental theory forms a major plot point in that setting). But all we know for sure is that it is the GM's homebrew setting, and that the GM has not clearly defined to his players what the elemental theory is in his campaign setting.

In my campaign there is only four elements. The books that you mentioned and specifically banned in my game. We play Core only.






Throwing in an NPC to tell them magic isn't involved is a deus ex machina.

Sometimes you need a bit of deus ex machina.
1. The PCs don't know spells.
2. If NPC help had been requested, they would have told that this riddle is most likely not about spells.
3. Any knowledge of spells cannot be involved in the process of 'cracking' the riddle.

[Ashtagon]

In my campaign there is only four elements. The books that you mentioned and specifically banned in my game. We play Core only.

This is literally the first time you have clarified this point in this thread.


Sometimes you need a bit of deus ex machina.
1. The PCs don't know spells.
2. If NPC help had been requested, they would have told that this riddle is most likely not about spells.
3. Any knowledge of spells cannot be involved in the process of 'cracking' the riddle.

You should have specified this at the start. I'd also point out that a party that lacks spells would be one that is very far outside of normal D&D expectations. The game is written with the assumption that the party has access to magic. It's playable without of course, but that's the default assumption.

[Jon_Dahl]

This is literally the first time you have clarified this point in this thread.



You should have specified this at the start. I'd also point out that a party that lacks spells would be one that is very far outside of normal D&D expectations. The game is written with the assumption that the party has access to magic. It's playable without of course, but that's the default assumption.

Irrelevant. I just wanted to get a better riddle-prophecy, but the ones that I got were too literal (closer to instructions, really, what to do) or too long-winded (one had 294 words i cant even) or missing something (fire coming from the depths?). All this talk about what are elements or what skills can be used is irrelevant. They can be used to provide additional ways to solve the riddle, as I did with Decipher Script, but that's all.

[Ashtagon]

It really is relevant. Without being told that that something is actually impossible, you have to assume that your players will consider the possibility.

Examining possibilities that seem like perfectly obvious assumptions was in fact the centrepiece of two major novels by Asimov (in that specific case, the assumption was "aliens do not exist").

A more entertaining result of this discussion could have been "everyone in the setting thinks there are only four elements. But there's at least one other, which is commonly found just as the classic four are, but no one thinks of it as an element". Maybe the solution is "flee to the forest, where the wood spirits have powerful magics that dampen earthquakes."

[Jon_Dahl]

It really is relevant. Without being told that that something is actually impossible, you have to assume that your players will consider the possibility.

Examining possibilities that seem like perfectly obvious assumptions was in fact the centrepiece of two major novels by Asimov (in that specific case, the assumption was "aliens do not exist").

A more entertaining result of this discussion could have been "everyone in the setting thinks there are only four elements. But there's at least one other, which is commonly found just as the classic four are, but no one thinks of it as an element". Maybe the solution is "flee to the forest, where the wood spirits have powerful magics that dampen earthquakes."

I can't write OPs like that because I can't think of all the possible information that you might need. You just have to ask for additional information.

[Sliver]

All right then, I will quote every suggestion on this thread and explain why I didn't like them. I did like one of them, though, but I guess I have already mentioned that.

...

Yeah, a shame that you didn't actually do any of that when it was relevant. I mean, before you actually used the riddle in the game. Doing this now? I just don't see the point.

[Ashtagon]

I can't write OPs like that because I can't think of all the possible information that you might need. You just have to ask for additional information.

Okay, maybe the specific elemental model in your campaign setting is something I should have asked about. But having a PC party that has no spellcasters? That's a biggie, to the extent that the default comment in most D&D communities (including this one if you look at that "casterless" thread) is "if you have no casters in the party, use a different rules set and don't use D&D". That's the sort of gamechanger that you really should have been able to mention upfront without any prompting.

[Jon_Dahl]

...

Yeah, a shame that you didn't actually do any of that when it was relevant. I mean, before you actually used the riddle in the game. Doing this now? I just don't see the point.

Many people were giving different kinds of solutions. I wanted to read them all and see what I could do with them. In the end, I couldn't do anything, so I just gave up.

[Gildedragon]

What language do you play in?

[Jon_Dahl]

What language do you play in?

Finnish, unfortunately.