XP free crafting system

[frogglesmash]

Are there any good crafting systems out there that don't rely on XP or some other resource that is only replenished by leveling?

The reason I ask is that I've never really liked the XP based crafting system that d&d has. The two basic problems I've always had with it is that a) I've always felt that XP is a resource that should be used for leveling and nothing else, and b) If the most effective method to acquire xp is adventuring, then where are all these sedentary, non violent NPC merchants getting their crafting XP?

[JBarca]

Are there any good crafting systems out there that don't rely on XP or some other resource that is only replenished by leveling?

The reason I ask is that I've never really liked the XP based crafting system that d&d has. The two basic problems I've always had with it is that a) I've always felt that XP is a resource that should be used for leveling and nothing else, and b) If the most effective method to acquire xp is adventuring, then where are all these sedentary, non violent NPC merchants getting their crafting XP?

Well, the simplest option if Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation). It's basically "3.5e DnD, except..."

And one of the "excepts" is magic item crafting costing no XP. It still uses gold, and uses Spellcraft checks to make progress.

[frogglesmash]

Well, the simplest option if Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation). It's basically "3.5e DnD, except..."

And one of the "excepts" is magic item crafting costing no XP. It still uses gold, and uses Spellcraft checks to make progress.

Are the gold costs inflated at all to account for the absence of XP costs?

[JBarca]

Are the gold costs inflated at all to account for the absence of XP costs?

Nope. 3.5 Gold values (ish? There may be exceptions with certain parts of the price formulae; I'll admit to mostly playing 3.5, so my PF knowledge isn't great), just with the added Spellcraft component.

[frogglesmash]

Nope. 3.5 Gold values (ish? There may be exceptions with certain parts of the price formulae; I'll admit to mostly playing 3.5, so my PF knowledge isn't great), just with the added Spellcraft component.

Neat, I wasn't expecting such an easy answer.

[Coidzor]

Are the gold costs inflated at all to account for the absence of XP costs?

I think some of them are, I know I've heard they are, but I can't remember for sure.

I know prices weren't universally changed, though.

Let's compare a Cloak of Resistance between editions.

D&D 3.5: 1K, 4K, 9K, 16K, and 25K for the different versions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cloakofResistance)
Pathfinder: 1K, 4K, 9K, 16K, and 25K, again. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/cloak-of-resistance)

Static +X and +X equivalents for armor?

3.5: 1K, 4K, 9K, 16K, 25K, 36K, 49K, 64K, 81K, 100K (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm)
PF: Also 1K, 4K, 9K, 16K, 25K, 36K, 49K, 64K, 81K, 100K (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor)

Manual of Gainful Exercise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#manualofGainfulExercise) vs. Manual of Gainful Exercise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/book-manual-of-gainful-exercise)?

3.5: 27,500 gp, 55,000 gp, 82,500 gp, 110,000 gp, and 137,500 gp
vs.
PF: the same

So, yeah, it looks like it's not a universal shift

[Crake]

Neat, I wasn't expecting such an easy answer.

they also changed spells with xp components to instead require expensive material components equal to five times the previous xp cost in gp

[frogglesmash]

they also changed spells with xp components to instead require expensive material components equal to five times the previous xp cost in gp

What do they do for psionics?

[sreservoir]

What do they do for psionics?
dsp does the same, but psionic materials are crystal-themed

[ekarney]

Yeah I just cut out the exp cost entirely, save for crafting anything wish based but those are exceptions. It's pretty stupid as a rule to lose exp for items.

[gadren]

The main problem with the crafting is that the free 50% discount is just too much, at least for permanent items. (Though honestly even when there was an exp cost it wasn't balanced.)
I pretty much always play some sort of crafter, but it skews WBL so bad it always results in 1 of 4 results:
1: The party ends up too powerful and most challenge in the game is lost.
2: The GM just throws higher CR monsters at the party than they'd normally fight, kind of defeating the point.
3: The GM tries to nerf the crafter by never allowing more than 1 day of downtime between adventures, if that, frustrating the crafter.
4: The GM tries to compensate for the crafter by halving the treasure awarded, frustrating the party.

[martixy]

The main problem with the crafting is that the free 50% discount is just too much, at least for permanent items. (Though honestly even when there was an exp cost it wasn't balanced.)
I pretty much always play some sort of crafter, but it skews WBL so bad it always results in 1 of 4 results:
1: The party ends up too powerful and most challenge in the game is lost.
2: The GM just throws higher CR monsters at the party than they'd normally fight, kind of defeating the point.
3: The GM tries to nerf the crafter by never allowing more than 1 day of downtime between adventures, if that, frustrating the crafter.
4: The GM tries to compensate for the crafter by halving the treasure awarded, frustrating the party.

Er... WBL is well-defined metric of the game.
And it's not like they designed the crafting system willy-nilly. They knew full well what they were doing. And the books explicitly addressed the issue.

The basic suggestion is this:
Increase the crafter's WBL allowance commensurate to the amount of feats invested.
I don't recall the exact numbers, or even the exact book(DMG?), but 10-15% per feat seems a good value.

Not everybody's WBL, just his. Any items he gives to his team mates come out of that extra allowance.

[Tvtyrant]

I have used a system I call "Masterpiece" before, where a player on leveling up constructs the equivalent of their next WBL set of items during the leveling up process. This works with having leveling up take in-game time, where the characters basically take some time off to train, craft, and work out.

The system worked well with having individuals level at the end of a plot arc, and makes sense in game as they all take a few months off to learn from their experiences. It also assumes that adventures don't pay out very much, or they pay out in gold instead of magic items.