Please, help my team!

[Big Moez]

:smalleek::smalleek:Here's the thing I'm in my first time playing D&D, we are playing an adventure based in the iconic show Dungeons & Dragons the game is set 30 years after the end of the show and it's been fun but very dificult so I would like to read your tips to help me improve my team. We have a monk(me), a cleric, a bard, a paladin and a barbarian(NPC). We're using the D&D 3.5 and our DM is a very sadistic MF. He almost killed me and my friends at least 3 times in the last play.:smalleek::smalleek:

[Honest Tiefling]

Um...Are you having fun with the level of legality? If not, then the answer is not to turn to us. The DM can simply ramp things up to counter any tips we give you, so that'd be pointless. What you should do is to address the problem with him and indicate you are not having fun.

If the answer is yes, then we'll need some more information on builds to help out. Do you have access to their character sheets?

[Gildedragon]

Um...Are you having fun with the level of legality? If not, then the answer is not to turn to us. The DM can simply ramp things up to counter any tips we give you, so that'd be pointless. What you should do is to address the problem with him and indicate you are not having fun.

If the answer is yes, then we'll need some more information on builds to help out. Do you have access to their character sheets?
This. +10000. Solve problems with the game out of the game.

An alternative: play a ghost.

[JNAProductions]

Backing up the OOC discussion. There's a decent chance the DM doesn't know that you're dissatisfied, and will be perfectly willing to drop the difficulty if you ask.

[Inevitability]

1. Could you elaborate how the DM is threatening the group? What encounters have so far been near-TPK's?

2. Could you provide us with some information on the characters' builds?

Some general advice:

-Don't be a monk. If you have to be a monk, make sure you know why a monk and not a fighter/barbarian/rogue.
-Clerics are a great class. If you can, make him buy a wand of Lesser Vigor for out-of-combat healing. If magic items aren't available, have the cleric prepare the spell to heal you between battles: it heals 15 HP where Cure Light Wounds only heals 1d8+5. Going into battles with full health will probably increase survivability.

[OldTrees1]

Big Moaz started by PMing me some questions about how flurry works.

Here is what Big Moaz's DM's character gen rules are as Big Moaz relayed them to me via PM prior to this thread.

Throw a d20, now make another character, you're a monk/cleric/paladin/bard, be happy". Any tips in this monk thing?

Rember

it's been fun but very dificult so I would like to read your tips to help me improve my team.


So what advice do we, the playground, have for a bunch of first time players that were randomly assigned a monk, a paladin, a bard, and a cleric in the same party?

[Big Moez]

Backing up the OOC discussion. There's a decent chance the DM doesn't know that you're dissatisfied, and will be perfectly willing to drop the difficulty if you ask.
Don't get me wrong I'm not dissatisfied the real problem is that I don't know how to combine my team so we fight with total sinergy, and I don't know how to build a good monk, you know?

[JNAProductions]

Don't get me wrong I'm not dissatisfied the real problem is that I don't know how to combine my team so we fight with total sinergy, and I don't know how to build a good monk, you know?

Well, if you want total synergy, you'd probably have to build that from the ground-up. As for playing a monk... Have you considered Unarmed Swordsage?

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm guessing it would be quite rude to suggest getting a cat to maul the character sheet and asking to re-roll? Monks are quite hard and can be easily left in the dust if not built properly.

What sort of equipment are we looking at, and what books is the DM allowing you to use? What is the character so far?

[OldTrees1]

Well, if you want total synergy, you'd probably have to build that from the ground-up. As for playing a monk... Have you considered Unarmed Swordsage?

Kinda hard to be a Swordsage when the levels are in the Monk base class don't you think?

[ATHATH]

General Advice:

Take the Invisible Fist ACF.

There's a feat from Dragon Magazine (I forgot which issue) called Hunter's Frenzy. Take it so that you can get Full-BAB in combat.

The Barbarian should take the Lion Totem for Pounce.

Remind the Paladin that he has access to Sanctified Spells.

Tell the Bard to look up "Inspire Courage Optimization".

The Cleric should take Divine Metamagic, Persist Spell, and possibly Extra Turning (there's a domain that grants it as a bonus feat). He should be fine no matter what he does from that point on, as long as he doesn't dip into classes that don't progress spellcasting.

Everyone in your group should look at some of the online handbooks that D&D players have created to help new players with their feat, prestige class, and spell choices. Ensure that you're looking at handbooks for 3.5, and not 5e.

Is your DM a veteran of 1e or 2e, by any chance?

[JNAProductions]

True... Ask for retraining?

[Big Moez]

1. Could you elaborate how the DM is threatening the group? What encounters have so far been near-TPK's?

2. Could you provide us with some information on the characters' builds?

Some general advice:

-Don't be a monk. If you have to be a monk, make sure you know why a monk and not a fighter/barbarian/rogue.
-Clerics are a great class. If you can, make him buy a wand of Lesser Vigor for out-of-combat healing. If magic items aren't available, have the cleric prepare the spell to heal you between battles: it heals 15 HP where Cure Light Wounds only heals 1d8+5. Going into battles with full health will probably increase survivability.
In the last game we fought (and miraculously survived) 7 orcs lv 5 and their leader a giant red orc lv8, in my party the most leveled is me and the paladin we both are lv 4 and the NPC a babarian lv 4 too, the bard and the cleric are currently in lv 3.

[AlanBruce]

In the last game we fought (and miraculously survived) 7 orcs lv 5 and their leader a giant red orc lv8, in my party the most leveled is me and the paladin we both are lv 4 and the NPC a babarian lv 4 too, the bard and the cleric are currently in lv 3.

It is indeed a miracle your party survived (or your DM is a sadist and wanted to torture you before fudging rolls).

I have never heard of a "giant red orc", probably an ogre, but going by the numbers alone, this is an EL 12 fight, considered "Unbeatable" by this calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/).

How did you manage to survive this given your current party build up?

[ATHATH]

Were you supposed to defeat the Orcs by a method other than combat?

[ATHATH]

Also, if you can, be a Wild Monk, which is a Monk variant that grants the incredibly versatile ability to Wildshape like a Druid. There's a guide to Wildshaping into animal forms here: https://docs.google.com/a/g.coppellisd.com/document/d/1pooxPkI-orXC8MaSH7pzJ7D44oOQYwz4JIS6nseML38/mobilebasic#

...and a guide to Wildshaping into non-animal forms (accessible through feats) here: https://docs.google.com/a/g.coppellisd.com/document/d/1LUJYY1XBEw0gqsdwhLjTzg33a_fHPaKqmMT36dQ1mfU/mobilebasic#

If you go the Wild Monk route, I recommend getting a custom item of at-will Enhance Wildshape and heading into the Master of Many Forms PrC (which has its own handbook, I believe).

Take the Wild Cohort feat (I recommend getting a Fleshraker) to complete your (spell-less) Druid disguise.

[Inevitability]

The moment you're fighting a bunch of orcs, each of which higher level than you are, and their leader with double your level, something has gone wrong.

Ask the DM why he is giving you encounters of this difficulty, because no optimization levels I can imagine him being comfortable with are going to help against these encounters.

[Vizzerdrix]

Also, is the DM new to DMing?

And how did your party levels get so spread out?

If you arent fully familiar with the rules look up flanking, tripping, and defensive actions in the players handbook.

And remember, clerics arent medics. They can be respectable front line fighters with the propper spells.

[Big Moez]

Were you supposed to defeat the Orcs by a method other than combat?
The group of enemies was split in two, their leader was in the back line and the rest of them were in the frontline. When we rolled the encounter the result was a 89%. We faced a difficult fight our paladin and the barbarian were badly injured but we managed to win before the rest of the orcs arrived.

[Big Moez]

Also, is the DM new to DMing?

And how did your party levels get so spread out?

If you arent fully familiar with the rules look up flanking, tripping, and defensive actions in the players handbook.

And remember, clerics arent medics. They can be respectable front line fighters with the propper spells.
Two of my friends (the bard and the cleric) missed 1 game each, we had a total of three games.

[Inevitability]

The group of enemies was split in two, their leader was in the back line and the rest of them were in the frontline. When we rolled the encounter the result was a 89%. We faced a difficult fight our paladin and the barbarian were badly injured but we managed to win before the rest of the orcs arrived.

Tell your DM a random encounter (that doesn't even seem to be in the top 10% of hard encounters) shouldn't be this difficult.

Again, ask him why he thinks these encounters are balanced.

[Quertus]

In the last game we fought (and miraculously survived) 7 orcs lv 5 and their leader a giant red orc lv8, in my party the most leveled is me and the paladin we both are lv 4 and the NPC a babarian lv 4 too, the bard and the cleric are currently in lv 3.

Party level 4, defeats survives CR 5 x7, plus CR 8? Hmmm... (1600x7)+4800=11,200+4800=16,000 xp

Divided 5 ways, that's 3,200 xp each.

The level 3 characters, on the other hand... (1800x7)+5400=12,600+5400=18,000 xp

Divided 5 ways, that's 3,600 xp each.

You've probably all leveled, just from that one encounter.


Tell your DM a random encounter (that doesn't even seem to be in the top 10% of hard encounters) shouldn't be this difficult.

Again, ask him why he thinks these encounters are balanced.

Eh, old school, where the random encounter table is the same at level 1 as at level 20, this sounds fine. It is an old show, after all. :smalltongue:

EDIT: I mean, come on, frickin' Tiamat is a bloody random encounter in that show!

[Big Moez]

Party level 4, defeats survives CR 5 x7, plus CR 8? Hmmm... (1600x7)+4800=11,200+4800=16,000 xp

Divided 5 ways, that's 3,200 xp each.

The level 3 characters, on the other hand... (1800x7)+5400=12,600+5400=18,000 xp

Divided 5 ways, that's 3,600 xp each.

You've probably all leveled, just from that one encounter.



Eh, old school, where the random encounter table is the same at level 1 as at level 20, this sounds fine. It is an old show, after all. :smalltongue:

EDIT: I mean, come on, frickin' Tiamat is a bloody random encounter in that show!

Tell me about it, he already mentioned a million of times that she, Tiamat, is still alive. I'm not sure that this will be good for me and my team.

[Bobby Baratheon]

If he lets you multiclass, you could do worse than an ascetic rogue build (monk/rogue). I wouldn't recommend more than a couple of levels in monk, though. Also, consider looking at alternate class features. Sleeping Tiger fighting style from the UA (you can find it at d20srd.org, it's in the OGL) could be useful for a monk/rogue hybrid. Even without optimizing the rogue levels, you can get sneak attack damage attached to your flurry of blows if you get crafty about flanking with the paladin. Penetrating strike should make that more universally applicable, and even without rogue levels you could always look at the various stunning fist feats. They're generally not worth it, but you can check them out.

Also, extending your reach and investing in tripping is not a bad style by any means. Monks make okay lockdown builds with the right feat selection.

What race did you pick?

[Bronk]

Tell me about it, he already mentioned a million of times that she, Tiamat, is still alive. I'm not sure that this will be good for me and my team.

Just a question, but have you ever watched the show? This is a bit tongue in cheek, but the plots usually revolved around the kids and their specific magic weapons doing something interesting or saving someone, then either:

A: Fighting a boss, holding them off for a bit with their weapons, then fleeing,
or
B: Fighting a boss, tricking them into fighting a second boss, then fleeing.

So, if your DM is playing to the theme of the original cartoon, then you should be looking for special magic weapons of your own, using them in oddball ways, and running away a lot.

I think in your specific example, it sounds like you were convinced to ambush and attack a foe way too tough for you. You don't have to take the bait! If the bad guys are going to attack a town, and they can wipe the floor with you, evacuate the town! That should be a good tactic even with a paladin in the group.

As for Tiamat, she was almost always a big, slow, lumbering draconic beast in the show, which sure, is bad for you, but she usually didn't have godly magic or divine abilities... she was just a tough, avoidable monster. However, she did exhibit godly powers, she helped the good guys!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSU8-uwJY1U

As for your monk... well, you can try to get some good weapons you can flurry with, wrangle up a few normal magic items, or get a few potions of 'enlarge person'.

[ATHATH]

I made an A-Game Monk a while back. It involves a lot of deity-switching and I'm not sure if it's legal (I don't know if you can apply Monk ACF's and substitution levels to Wild Monk levels), but here it is:

Skarn Durable Sacred Strike Holy Monk Wild Monk 2/Broken One 1/Wild Monk 1/Planar Monk 1/Wild Monk 1/Dark Moon Disciple 1/Wild Monk 2/Skarn Monk 1/Wild Monk 10

Drop Skarn and the Skarn Monk substitution level if you don't want to have to deal with MoI. If you do that, I recommend being a Strongheart Halfling and taking some of the Halfling-exclusive Monk substitution levels.

I also have an A-Game Bard for your friend (again, I'm not quite sure if it is legal):

Half-Elf Bardic Sage Healing Hymn Hymn of Fortification Dead Levels Golarion Bard Inspire Hatred Half-Elf Bard 1/Bard 4/Half-Elf Bard 1/Bard 1/Half-Elf Bard 1/Bard 3/Planar Bard 1/Bard 8

Drop Bardic Sage if you want to focus on Inspire Courage or Inspire Heroics (the after-effects of your other songs aren't shortened in duration) over your spellcasting.

[gadren]

In the last game we fought (and miraculously survived) 7 orcs lv 5 and their leader a giant red orc lv8, in my party the most leveled is me and the paladin we both are lv 4 and the NPC a babarian lv 4 too, the bard and the cleric are currently in lv 3.

Honestly, if this is true, then nothing we can tell you in terms of character builds will help. Your DM either doesn't know what he is doing or is just a jerk.
If I were you, I'd find a new group. If you just really enjoy hanging out with these guys, then I'd recommend just adopting the most suicidal tactics possible and then kicking back with a beer after your character gets killed off, rinse, repeat.

[Big Moez]

I made an A-Game Monk a while back. It involves a lot of deity-switching and I'm not sure if it's legal (I don't know if you can apply Monk ACF's and substitution levels to Wild Monk levels), but here it is:

Skarn Durable Sacred Strike Holy Monk Wild Monk 2/Broken One 1/Wild Monk 1/Planar Monk 1/Wild Monk 1/Dark Moon Disciple 1/Wild Monk 2/Skarn Monk 1/Wild Monk 10

Drop Skarn and the Skarn Monk substitution level if you don't want to have to deal with MoI. If you do that, I recommend being a Strongheart Halfling and taking some of the Halfling-exclusive Monk substitution levels.

I also have an A-Game Bard for your friend (again, I'm not quite sure if it is legal):

Half-Elf Bardic Sage Healing Hymn Hymn of Fortification Dead Levels Golarion Bard Inspire Hatred Half-Elf Bard 1/Bard 4/Half-Elf Bard 1/Bard 1/Half-Elf Bard 1/Bard 3/Planar Bard 1/Bard 8

Drop Bardic Sage if you want to focus on Inspire Courage or Inspire Heroics (the after-effects of your other songs aren't shortened in duration) over your spellcasting.
I already asked about mult class to him, he told that we need training to become mult class. Now that we are lost in the woods this is not gonna happen. I will wait for the first oportunity to meet a rougue npc and ask him to teach me.

[ATHATH]

I already asked about mult class to him, he told that we need training to become mult class. Now that we are lost in the woods this is not gonna happen. I will wait for the first oportunity to meet a rougue npc and ask him to teach me.
That wasn't multi-classing, that was liberal use of substitution levels and ACF's.

[Big Moez]

Honestly, if this is true, then nothing we can tell you in terms of character builds will help. Your DM either doesn't know what he is doing or is just a jerk.
If I were you, I'd find a new group. If you just really enjoy hanging out with these guys, then I'd recommend just adopting the most suicidal tactics possible and then kicking back with a beer after your character gets killed off, rinse, repeat.
He is the Joker(Jared Leto) kind of DM he doesn't kill us he just leave us in really, really, bad situations.

[Big Moez]

Just a question, but have you ever watched the show? This is a bit tongue in cheek, but the plots usually revolved around the kids and their specific magic weapons doing something interesting or saving someone, then either:

A: Fighting a boss, holding them off for a bit with their weapons, then fleeing,
or
B: Fighting a boss, tricking them into fighting a second boss, then fleeing.

So, if your DM is playing to the theme of the original cartoon, then you should be looking for special magic weapons of your own, using them in oddball ways, and running away a lot.

I think in your specific example, it sounds like you were convinced to ambush and attack a foe way too tough for you. You don't have to take the bait! If the bad guys are going to attack a town, and they can wipe the floor with you, evacuate the town! That should be a good tactic even with a paladin in the group.

As for Tiamat, she was almost always a big, slow, lumbering draconic beast in the show, which sure, is bad for you, but she usually didn't have godly magic or divine abilities... she was just a tough, avoidable monster. However, she did exhibit godly powers, she helped the good guys!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSU8-uwJY1U

As for your monk... well, you can try to get some good weapons you can flurry with, wrangle up a few normal magic items, or get a few potions of 'enlarge person'.
He gave us special weapons but that, for plot reasons, still don't help in anything. He gave me a quarterstaff, my damage with it is d6 my unarmed damage by now is d8. The quarterstaff is completely pointless by now.

[ATHATH]

Big Moez, my post landed between your two posts; you might have missed it.

[ATHATH]

By the way, if your DM allows Dragon Magazine material, you can stack the Spark, Arctic, and Desert (in that order) racial variants onto that Half-Elf Bard that I mentioned earlier.

[Barbarian Horde]

Honestly, I wish I was ignorant of the rules as a whole. I think my first D&D game was my favorite. Not knowing how to optimize my character. It was a lot of fun. Now I've got at least 1 min/max every game that wants super strength, cast magic, fly,wielding a colossal weapon, meta magic cheese all blended into a little packaged labeled get ****ed with just a hint of time magic slathered in magic gear.

--
What I'm getting at is
The fact that you almost don't survive each encounter is what I like about certain campaigns. Your campaign sounds ideal. I don't really think you need help from here. Just keep doing what cha been doing. Yes I do think your DM fudges his rolls often from what I read.

[Inevitability]

What I'm getting at is
The fact that you almost don't survive each encounter is what I like about certain campaigns. Your campaign sounds ideal. I don't really think you need help from here. Just keep doing what cha been doing. Yes I do think your DM fudges his rolls often from what I read.

I fully agree all campaigns should be challenging.

I disagree that having a DM who makes you fight impossible encounters, then fudges the dice to prevent PC death is the right way to do so. By then you aren't playing D&D anymore, you're playing some hideous clone of the game where the PC's live or die by the grace of some omnipotent superbeing yet are still supposed to have fun.

[BilltheCynic]

Before we give specific build advice, I have to ask, what source books are available to use? Also, what are the PCs' races, and is the DM enforcing multiclass xp penalty?

[Bronk]

He gave us special weapons but that, for plot reasons, still don't help in anything. He gave me a quarterstaff, my damage with it is d6 my unarmed damage by now is d8. The quarterstaff is completely pointless by now.

Plot reasons... anything you can work on in game then? The quarterstaff in the show had all sorts of additional powers, like stretching into a force pole. Although, with only d6 damage, it doesn't even sound magical...

[SethoMarkus]

I fully agree all campaigns should be challenging.

I disagree that having a DM who makes you fight impossible encounters, then fudges the dice to prevent PC death is the right way to do so. By then you aren't playing D&D anymore, you're playing some hideous clone of the game where the PC's live or die by the grace of some omnipotent superbeing yet are still supposed to have fun.

For some people that is/can be fun. "Hey look, we beat the dragon! High-fives all around! (Even though the dragon totslly took out 3/4 my hp the first attack then miraculously missed me the rest of the fight...)"

[Inevitability]

For some people that is/can be fun. "Hey look, we beat the dragon! High-fives all around! (Even though the dragon totslly took out 3/4 my hp the first attack then miraculously missed me the rest of the fight...)"

For some, perhaps. However, I consider it safe to assume most D&D players won't consider your example 'fun'.

[Big Moez]

So, sorry for the delay, my second child just born and now I'm with my hands full, anyway. After the last time we played my character grown to the level 6, yay!