Day lasting time stop?

[flappeercraft]

I think I came up of how to make potentially the most overpowered strategy to be created in d&d 3.5. Technically persistent spell allows to use with spells with personal or fixed range (time stop is personal). Now persistent spells last for a full day but cost 4 slots higher. This could be fixed with ultimate magus PrC or taking easy metamagic (persistent spell), arcane thesis (time stop), forceful magic and metamagic school focus (transmutation) which woukd allow you to cast this 1/day essentially allowing you to have 1 day to prepare for a fight and even if it was an ambush or similar you could do celerity then this. You can also technically take residual magic feat and be able to cast this but as soon as the spell ends since technically it would be a round you could cast it without metamagic feat higher slots. If you do this then 2/day

[flappeercraft]

Now would this work? How can I improve it? Feel free to leave any feedback or ways to improve it

[Malimar]

IIRC, the last time this came up the Playground's decision was that the spell lasts for 24 hours, but you still only get 1d4+1 rounds of actions, because Persistent Spell only changes the Duration line but leaves unchanged the following line within the spell's text:

You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

[Jack_Simth]

Known issue; there's a couple of different ways to pull it off. The 3.0 FAQ said that Time Stop is "effectively instantaneous" and therefore can't be persisted, and that's as close to an official clairification that you're going to get from WotC.

As the effect is not 100% raw clear, at a table, there's going to be one of a handful of rulings from the DM, with some variations:
1) "No" by whatever phrasing: "I won't have that kind of cheddar at my table", "It's effectively instant, and so doesn't apply" "You get killed by some form of time monster" or similar.
2) Works like you think it does. Have fun with your free day, including rep-preparing spells.
3) Over the course of the next 24 hours, you can act for a grand total of 1d4+1 rounds, and you can't hurt anyone with those rounds. No restriction going the other way (this could be considered a variation on #1, but is devious enough to merit an entry all by itself).
4) Over the course of the next 24 hours, you get 1d4+1 bonus rounds that you can insert into your day as you see fit.

[DarkSoul]

First, Persistent Spell is +6 spell levels, per Compete Arcane.

Second, if you try this in a game, expect the DM to go with choices 1 or 3 from Jack's list.

Most sane DM's go with choice 1. You get choice 3 if they want to make you regret trying it at all.

[Crake]

personally the way I run it is that you 1d4 rounds "apparent" time becomes 24 hours REAL time, which means that you are timestopped for 24 hours real time, which is several centuries in timestopped time. You are now trapped and unable to interact with anything, forever alone until you die of starvation, old age, or go crazy for social isolation. Oh and you can't dispel it because the spell was cast in real time and can't be affected by you.

[Inevitability]

personally the way I run it is that you 1d4 rounds "apparent" time becomes 24 hours REAL time, which means that you are timestopped for 24 hours real time, which is several centuries in timestopped time. You are now trapped and unable to interact with anything, forever alone until you die of starvation, old age, or go crazy for social isolation. Oh and you can't dispel it because the spell was cast in real time and can't be affected by you.

*cough*warforged*cough*

[ryu]

personally the way I run it is that you 1d4 rounds "apparent" time becomes 24 hours REAL time, which means that you are timestopped for 24 hours real time, which is several centuries in timestopped time. You are now trapped and unable to interact with anything, forever alone until you die of starvation, old age, or go crazy for social isolation. Oh and you can't dispel it because the spell was cast in real time and can't be affected by you.

Consider that methods for not needing food and having eternal life are quite doable, and that adventurers are already insane in one way or another as part of the job description.

[Inevitability]

Consider that methods for not needing food and having eternal life are quite doable, and that adventurers are already insane in one way or another as part of the job description.

Which technically allips far less of a threat.

Note that 'far less of a threat' here means: 'you are able to run away'.

[Graypairofsocks]

IIRC, the last time this came up the Playground's decision was that the spell lasts for 24 hours, but you still only get 1d4+1 rounds of actions, because Persistent Spell only changes the Duration line but leaves unchanged the following line within the spell's text:

Keep in mind that by RAW the duration of timestop and its effect can last a different amount of time.

[Gildedragon]

I'd allow it as a last resort. If the wizard abuses it to make the rest of the party useless... Well time Inevitables will fight back wirh similar tactics. There'd be some talk beforehand but overall I'd allow the trick for a bit.

[eggynack]

By my reading, it just unambiguously doesn't work by RAW. It's ambiguous why specifically it doesn't work, cause there're a few different paths you can go down, but all paths lead to failure. In particular, one thing the spell is very clear about is that it doesn't last for 1d4+1 rounds. That is in no way the actual duration, with the actual duration lying beneath that apparent duration. What is the actual duration? There're a couple of options. It could be instantaneous, in which case persist doesn't work, or it could be the time during which 1d4+1 rounds passes, in which case it works in a way that's awful enough that it can be considered not working. The third seemingly plausible reading, where 1d4+1 is the actual duration, and you can modify that, doesn't seem to square at all with the underlying operation of the spell, which leaves only those two not working readings.

[Max Caysey]

personally the way I run it is that you 1d4 rounds "apparent" time becomes 24 hours REAL time, which means that you are timestopped for 24 hours real time, which is several centuries in timestopped time. You are now trapped and unable to interact with anything, forever alone until you die of starvation, old age, or go crazy for social isolation. Oh and you can't dispel it because the spell was cast in real time and can't be affected by you.

I actually like this. Amagine you go throug 30 seconds every instant (assuming an instant is 0.01 of a second) lets say for 24 hours meanting at the end of the spell one woud have passed though 250.920.000 seconds. Assuming an instant is a measurable lenth of time. 7.95 years. A wizard could achieve a lot of research!

A DM cound however be inclined to say that an instant has no measurable time and just happens instantly, thus making the above eternal prison thing quite possible... which might just be...

[Barbarian Horde]

I think I came up of how to make potentially the most overpowered strategy to be created in d&d 3.5. Technically persistent spell allows to use with spells with personal or fixed range (time stop is personal). Now persistent spells last for a full day but cost 4 slots higher. This could be fixed with ultimate magus PrC or taking easy metamagic (persistent spell), arcane thesis (time stop), forceful magic and metamagic school focus (transmutation) which woukd allow you to cast this 1/day essentially allowing you to have 1 day to prepare for a fight and even if it was an ambush or similar you could do celerity then this. You can also technically take residual magic feat and be able to cast this but as soon as the spell ends since technically it would be a round you could cast it without metamagic feat higher slots. If you do this then 2/day


Ocular spell it seeing how the target is personal. Then as a ranged ray attack with a fixed range you persist it? Because getting your spells are restored after x amount of time... you can just cast it again locking the world in place forever? Not sure if this would work, but I'm pretty sure this is got a strong taste of cheddar to it.

[Vizzerdrix]

If that is the case, then how do we weaponize this?

[DarkSoul]

I'd allow it as a last resort. If the wizard abuses it to make the rest of the party useless... Well time Inevitables will fight back wirh similar tactics. There'd be some talk beforehand but overall I'd allow the trick for a bit.

I think I'd step it up to a Phane, personally.

[Barbarian Horde]

I'd like to point out that celerity cannot be used if you surprise the target that uses it on the first turn. The enemy has to wait till their turn on initiative after the initial surprise round.
Only work around I know to this is setting up a trigger for contingency spell using nerverskitter spell as the key. And cheesing your way to victory using this method. Nerveskitter is the only spell that I'm aware of that can be used even during a surprise round. Making it effectively impossible to catch the magic user.

[martixy]

personally the way I run it is that you 1d4 rounds "apparent" time becomes 24 hours REAL time, which means that you are timestopped for 24 hours real time, which is several centuries in timestopped time. You are now trapped and unable to interact with anything, forever alone until you die of starvation, old age, or go crazy for social isolation. Oh and you can't dispel it because the spell was cast in real time and can't be affected by you.


I actually like this. Amagine you go throug 30 seconds every instant (assuming an instant is 0.01 of a second) lets say for 24 hours meanting at the end of the spell one woud have passed though 250.920.000 seconds. Assuming an instant is a measurable lenth of time. 7.95 years. A wizard could achieve a lot of research!

A DM cound however be inclined to say that an instant has no measurable time and just happens instantly, thus making the above eternal prison thing quite possible... which might just be...

This whole shebang is missing a critical variable:
The duration of the spell in real time.

It is not instantaneous as per the description of the spell.
It say it speeds you up, not that it flat out stops time. There is a finite, real factor of conversion.

However, it seems there is an error in your calculations. Or a typo.
The figure is 259,200,000 seconds. Or 8 yrs, 2.5 months.
Regardless, the factor you chose is 3,000.

Based on that, I have another proposition for handling a Persistent Time Stop.
The caster skips the next 5 rounds.
Because from that factor a day in apparent time is equal to 5 rounds.
Tactically that's plenty of rounds for a combat situation to evolve WITHOUT the participation of a major player on the battlefield.

And it is quite plausible to pick a 300 factor instead.
Which makes the caster skip 5 minutes. At which point whatever he had been preparing might be entirely irrelevant.

[Anthrowhale]

I believe it is legal to get the effect the OP seeks (1 day of apparent time) by other means. In particular, you can cast Time Stop inside Time Stop ~4000 times.

[eggynack]

Only work around I know to this is setting up a trigger for contingency spell using nerverskitter spell as the key. And cheesing your way to victory using this method. Nerveskitter is the only spell that I'm aware of that can be used even during a surprise round. Making it effectively impossible to catch the magic user.
But the triggers for contingencies don't have to be spells. You can just make the trigger saying stuff, or anything really.

[Barbarian Horde]

But the triggers for contingencies don't have to be spells. You can just make the trigger saying stuff, or anything really.

I just using a low level spell that was an immediate action that could be activated when ever for what ever reason you wanted. I know speaking & stuff is a free action that typically done on your turn.

[eggynack]

I just using a low level spell that was an immediate action that could be activated when ever for what ever reason you wanted. I know speaking & stuff is a free action that typically done on your turn.
Speaking is actually an exception to the general rule that free actions take place during your turn.

[Gildedragon]

Speaking is actually an exception to the general rule that free actions take place during your turn.

Speaking is also a standard action when saying command words

[Honest Tiefling]

personally the way I run it is that you 1d4 rounds "apparent" time becomes 24 hours REAL time, which means that you are timestopped for 24 hours real time, which is several centuries in timestopped time. You are now trapped and unable to interact with anything, forever alone until you die of starvation, old age, or go crazy for social isolation. Oh and you can't dispel it because the spell was cast in real time and can't be affected by you.


*cough*warforged*cough*

That sounds like an awesome origin for a villain!

[eggynack]

Speaking is also a standard action when saying command words
You're not saying command words. Command words are a specific game defined term, and contingency does not operate on the basis of that term.

[Crake]

This whole shebang is missing a critical variable:
The duration of the spell in real time.

It is not instantaneous as per the description of the spell.
It say it speeds you up, not that it flat out stops time. There is a finite, real factor of conversion.

However, it seems there is an error in your calculations. Or a typo.
The figure is 259,200,000 seconds. Or 8 yrs, 2.5 months.
Regardless, the factor you chose is 3,000.

Based on that, I have another proposition for handling a Persistent Time Stop.
The caster skips the next 5 rounds.
Because from that factor a day in apparent time is equal to 5 rounds.
Tactically that's plenty of rounds for a combat situation to evolve WITHOUT the participation of a major player on the battlefield.

And it is quite plausible to pick a 300 factor instead.
Which makes the caster skip 5 minutes. At which point whatever he had been preparing might be entirely irrelevant.

The only problem is that persistent spell makes the spell last "24 hours", not "24 hours apparent time". As for the caclulations, I would actually go with a planck second, the minimum possible time. Using that, you would be in the time stop for apparent time equal to more than 10^37 years, an inconcievable amount of time by the end of which you would be nothing but dust.

[ryu]

The only problem is that persistent spell makes the spell last "24 hours", not "24 hours apparent time". As for the caclulations, I would actually go with a planck second, the minimum possible time. Using that, you would be in the time stop for apparent time equal to more than 10^37 years, an inconcievable amount of time by the end of which you would be nothing but dust.

Nah. You don't need food. You won't die of old age. Nothing in the world can act upon you. You'll come out of it having set gods only know how many delayed effects to occur as the timestop ends and with a hilarious amount of information about the world.

[Crake]

Nah. You don't need food. You won't die of old age. Nothing in the world can act upon you. You'll come out of it having set gods only know how many delayed effects to occur as the timestop ends and with a hilarious amount of information about the world.

except that wear and tear affects all things and you have no access to materials, you can't interact with anything so you can't learn anything new other than things that are on display to read, and honestly I don't think you quite understand just how long that is. That's longer than the expected lifetime of the universe by sevral tens degrees of magnitutudes. You can't even do any research because you have access to no wealth beyond your immediate belongings, anything that you let go of returns to the normal time stream and you can no longer interact with, you can't craft anything unless you have the materials on hand, so that's also a no-go, you can't fabricate yourself to fix the wear and tear, because the dust you excrete is forever gone, make whole only fixes damage, you still need all the pieces, and you can only create permanent, true materials as long as you have the xp to do so, which wont be for long, since you also no longer have any means to gain xp. Eventually, over such a long time, you would just completely wear away.

[Inevitability]

except that wear and tear affects all things and you have no access to materials, you can't interact with anything so you can't learn anything new other than things that are on display to read, and honestly I don't think you quite understand just how long that is. That's longer than the expected lifetime of the universe by sevral tens degrees of magnitutudes. You can't even do any research because you have access to no wealth beyond your immediate belongings, anything that you let go of returns to the normal time stream and you can no longer interact with, you can't craft anything unless you have the materials on hand, so that's also a no-go, you can't fabricate yourself to fix the wear and tear, because the dust you excrete is forever gone, make whole only fixes damage, you still need all the pieces, and you can only create permanent, true materials as long as you have the xp to do so, which wont be for long, since you also no longer have any means to gain xp. Eventually, over such a long time, you would just completely wear away.

Actually, RAW points to warforged not deteriorating at all after they've reached the age of 150 years. The DM could, of course, rule that they decay after literal aeons of activity, but that's a houserule and therefore beyond the game we're discussing here.

Alternatively, you could be an Elan. You don't need food or water, and your body won't give out no matter how long you live. Even a lack of oxygen won't be a problem: Bottles of Air are a thing.

[Jack_Simth]

you can't interact with anything so you can't learn anything new other than things that are on display to read... OK, you're not the first person in the thread to say that, and it's explicity false per Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm):
This spell seems to make time cease to flow for everyone but you. In fact, you speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at their normal speeds. You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends. Most spellcasters use the additional time to improve their defenses, summon allies, or flee from combat.

You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time, but you can affect any item that is not in another creature’s possession.

You are undetectable while time stop lasts. You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field while under the effect of time stop. (emphasis and emphasis added)

The bold section highlights what you can't do... the underlined section explicitly says some of the stuff you can do. So yeah, a warforged could go mining for repair materials, a wizard could pull a book off of a shelf in a library and read it, you could deplete the contents of a grainery, no problems. And, of course, you could also dispel your own Time Stop, because it's not on another creature.

[martixy]

The only problem is that persistent spell makes the spell last "24 hours", not "24 hours apparent time". As for the caclulations, I would actually go with a planck second, the minimum possible time. Using that, you would be in the time stop for apparent time equal to more than 10^37 years, an inconcievable amount of time by the end of which you would be nothing but dust.

Hm. Good point.

It's called "planck time". And if your factor is tP, you get ~1.5e+42 not 10^37 years.
Also, bringing physics into D&D again. Tsk, tsk. :smalltongue:

[Quertus]

... OK, you're not the first person in the thread to say that, and it's explicity false per Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm): (emphasis and emphasis added)

The bold section highlights what you can't do... the underlined section explicitly says some of the stuff you can do. So yeah, a warforged could go mining for repair materials, a wizard could pull a book off of a shelf in a library and read it, you could deplete the contents of a grainery, no problems. And, of course, you could also dispel your own Time Stop, because it's not on another creature.

Thank you for pointing that out. 3.0 & 3.5 both let you manipulate the world while in a time stop.

Few things are more fun than the look on an enemy wizard's face than when you rest and rememorize spells inside a time stop, to keep casting time stop long enough to dismantle / disintegrate their entire tower. Or fill the room with acid / lava / voidstone. Or just tp (or otherwise redecorate) their lab, to show them how far beneath your notice they truly are. Nothing says intimidate like Ikea. :smallcool:

EDIT: I'm surprised that no one had pointed out that even epic spells are limited to 5 rounds of time stop - the transport seed specifically calls this out.

[Crake]

Hm. Good point.

It's called "planck time". And if your factor is tP, you get ~1.5e+42 not 10^37 years.
Also, bringing physics into D&D again. Tsk, tsk. :smalltongue:

I was basing my assumption on an average of 21s per time stop (average of 1d4+1 *6 second rounds), and the number you quoted is "planck time" per second, so if you multiply that by 21, that's how many seconds you get, not how many years. You then divide by 3600 for hours, 24 for days, and then 365 for years, which gets you closer to the number i got.


... OK, you're not the first person in the thread to say that, and it's explicity false per Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm): (emphasis and emphasis added)

The bold section highlights what you can't do... the underlined section explicitly says some of the stuff you can do. So yeah, a warforged could go mining for repair materials, a wizard could pull a book off of a shelf in a library and read it, you could deplete the contents of a grainery, no problems. And, of course, you could also dispel your own Time Stop, because it's not on another creature.

Good catch, fair enough.

Either way, I still maintain that no being would be able to endure that amount of time when you start to look at the logistics of it all.

[Jack_Simth]

Good catch, fair enough.

Either way, I still maintain that no being would be able to endure that amount of time when you start to look at the logistics of it all.
So don't. Dispel it partway through, once you've accomplished the specific reason for the Time Stop in the first place - be that buffing, researching a spell, demolishing a castle with Shapechange for a beholder's disintigrate eye ray, resting up and re-preparing spells, or what-have-you. The Time Stop is on you, not anyone else, so just get rid of it when you've spent enough time in it.

[martixy]

I was basing my assumption on an average of 21s per time stop (average of 1d4+1 *6 second rounds), and the number you quoted is "planck time" per second, so if you multiply that by 21, that's how many seconds you get, not how many years. You then divide by 3600 for hours, 24 for days, and then 365 for years, which gets you closer to the number i got.

I am not entirely sure where you're coming from and I suspect there is either a flaw in your reasoning or an unnecessary over-complication.
Are you assuming a variable time dilation factor? If yes, why?
How does that help you vs a constant value?


Good catch, fair enough.

Either way, I still maintain that no being would be able to endure that amount of time when you start to look at the logistics of it all.

Physics vs D&D again.
Since the game does not deal with such timescales, and non-physicist people also have a hard time of dealing with them, there's nothing really stopping an Elan from surviving that interval of time.
Conversely physics, where the only reasonable statement you can make is "things will have fallen apart in some sense of the phrase". Cuz if you try to say anything else, there is no end to the rabbit hole. For everything you say, I guarantee you, there exists a big, hairy "But...".
Contra-conversely magic. Cuz magic.

In DM-fiat territory, balance-wise, I personally think that keeping the "apparent time" stipulation with a reasonably small time dilation factor, and the inability to dispel it is an amusing and cool way to solve the problem of persisted time stops. It makes the spell a glorified time hop.