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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Any ideas how to expand fighter feat trees to 14th and 16th level?



Jon_Dahl
2016-05-07, 05:06 AM
I understand that fighter needs A LOT more help than just the expansion of the fighter feat trees, but let's try to fill those holes between 13th to 20th level, ok? The most important of these trees is the weapon specialization tree, which begins with weapon focus (1st-level) and ends with Greater Weapon Specialization (12th-level). This tree continues at epic levels, but we are not talking about that. There's a gap between 13th to 20th level. Filling 14th and 16th levels with nice "fighter only" feats would be nice, don't you agree?

My suggestions:
Beheader (14th, fighter only, power attack feat tree). May perform Coup de grace as a swift action.

Ultimate Weapon Specialization (16th, fighter only, weapon specialization tree): Whenever you perform an attack action, you gain an extra attack at your normal BAB. Only one extra attack per round.

Any ideas? Like I said, this is NOT going to fix the fighter, but would fill out those holes that make very little sense.

Aegis013
2016-05-07, 09:14 AM
How about a feat to let the fighter full attack with the chosen weapon as a standard action?

Maybe a feat to let them endow their chosen weapon with a portion of their fighting spirit, adding an adjustable number of enhancements to their weapon/s. E.g. You can add up to +3 worth of weapon enhancement effects to each of the chosen weapon you wield, changeable daily.

Maybe another feat to make the change a full round action instead. Don't have a ghost touch weapon? Not to worry, swap it in real quick.

Could have a fighter feat that lets them use on their wealth of combat experience to improve their skills. Maybe allow them to get a bonus to most Str/Dex/Con based skills, and Listen/Spot, maybe intimidate and a few others equal to their fighter level.

Maybe feats to get Uncanny Dodge, Mettle, Evasion and a worthwhile amount of SR? (10+class level maybe?) If you're looking to expand existing feat trees, this could go well on the Diehard route.

Better shield related feats would be nice. Maybe a feat to give you concealment (not usable for hide) based on shield type? 20% buckler, 30% light shield, 40% heavy shield, 50% tower shield? Improved power attack return feat for 1 handers? Alternatively a good way to mitigate the reduced accuracy.

How about a 17th level fighter only feat that lets you change your action to any combination of 3 action types you want? (Full round+Full Round+Full Round, Swift+Swift+Full Round, Move+Move+Move)? Maybe on some kind of chain off of Improved Initiative if you want to keep them in feat chains.

Jon_Dahl
2016-05-07, 02:41 PM
Maybe feats to get Uncanny Dodge, Mettle, Evasion and a worthwhile amount of SR? (10+class level maybe?) If you're looking to expand existing feat trees, this could go well on the Diehard route.

I liked all your points but this really made me think... Fighter survivability is something that we need. We have very few of that for them, right? What about the following?

Festina Lente [General]

Prerequisites
Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +12.

Some say that magic is the deadliest enemy that a warrior can face. When you feel its touch, your mind and body act faster.

Benefit
Whenever you succeed in a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect, your current initiative count improves by 3. This change in the initiative order takes effect on the start of the next round.

This feat does not work if your saving throw was made against a spell or spell-like effect of an ally. You do not need to be aware of who cast the spell or even that any spell was targeted at you. The usage of this feat represents subconscious battle instinct.

A fighter may select Festina Lente as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Aegis013
2016-05-07, 11:39 PM
I liked all your points but this really made me think... Fighter survivability is something that we need. We have very few of that for them, right? What about the following?

Festina Lente [General]

I mean, more options isn't a bad thing. I just don't think this feat is worth the slot. ToB is probably not your target comparison, but consider that a Warblade can spend one of his many maneuvers on Moment of Prescience for a rechargeable Swift action +20 to initiative count a level earlier. I'd be hard pressed to even consider this as an option at the level range we're talking about. Consider the following...

If he gets targeted by a Fort save spell, and passes, his initiative next round increases by +3. This is either a. pretty good, he goes before an enemy, b. pointless, he either doesn't change in initiative order or he goes before an ally, who could've just delayed for the same effect without using up a feat.

If he gets targeted by a Will or Reflex save spell, he'll probably fail, and the feat failed him. This is sometimes useful one third of the time when a specific scenario occurs (affected by a spell that allows a save).

I think a 12th level feat with two rather weak prerequisite feats should be useful more consistently, or if it's situational, it should have a very dramatic effect.

What if we improve it a bit? Say...

"Once per encounter, when you fail a saving throw against a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, you can choose to have your determination and focus reach a peek and shrug off the effect, instead becoming energized with the thrill of the battle. You suffer no ill-effects from the spell, (you take no damage, if the spell would hamper your movement it does not, etc), and may make a single attack against the caster as a free action if you are within range to do so."

I also considered having "...you gain a number of temporary HP equal to your fighter level, gain a competence bonus to your saves equal to half your fighter level for 3 rounds" in addition, because really Fighter ought to get a reasonable number of benefits per feat expended, but that's just my opinion.


Beyond survivability they also need help making sure their main shtick is relevant. They could use ways to mitigate enemy defenses like Flying, Miss-Chance, Ethereal/Incorporeal, Immediate Action teleport, and the like.

Jon_Dahl
2016-05-08, 06:10 AM
@Aegis013

Thank you for the feedback!

At higher levels, initiative order is often considered extremely vital. I advise you to look at these threads:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238878-3-5-How-Important-is-Winning-Initiative
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000

I would argue that initiative is extremely important because at high levels the game can become a rocket tag. Of course it's sad how "well" a fighter can fare in this rocket tag, but I happen to think that initiative is important and undervalued. And I have decided to change the description that any saving throw, failed or successful, vs. spell/spell-like abilities will trigger the feat. The cumulative effect should also be noted. A fighter whose initiative count was 4 can have it upgraded to 10 after a couple of fireballs. I think that's nice.

Magikeeper
2016-05-08, 01:53 PM
From my experience (which was admittedly high-op), high level combat takes a long time OOC but is generally pretty fast round-wise. Unless the fighter is getting mass-spammed by weak spells they're unlikely to have it trigger many times (and still be in any condition to do anything).

Anyway, the feat at best is a single extra round. Which is quite strong! But it's also very undependable. I would surely take something else at that level - if I wanted to be good vs spells that actually give saves I'd probably do something like Steadfast Determination / Planer Touchstone[Catalogs of Enlightenment{Pride Domain}]. And if you have dodge/mobility there are piles and piles and piles of feat options if you comb through enough splats and dragon magazine.


But to tweak your suggestion:

Festina Lente [General]
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +12.
<Some description that explains why this does what it does>
Benefit: Whenever one of your melee or ranged attacks misses an opponent your current initiative count improves by 3. This change in the initiative order takes effect on the start of the next round, and lasts until the end of the encounter.

Furthermore, once per day you may add your base attack bonus to an initiative roll or other dexterity check.

A fighter may select Festina Lente as one of his fighter bonus feats.


---

The above also makes it better for fighters than casters that took dodge/mobility for some strange reason. Not the most amazing feat, but it's at least sure to be useful.

Jon_Dahl
2016-05-08, 02:54 PM
From my experience (which was admittedly high-op), high level combat takes a long time OOC but is generally pretty fast round-wise. Unless the fighter is getting mass-spammed by weak spells they're unlikely to have it trigger many times (and still be in any condition to do anything).

Anyway, the feat at best is a single extra round. Which is quite strong! But it's also very undependable. I would surely take something else at that level - if I wanted to be good vs spells that actually give saves I'd probably do something like Steadfast Determination / Planer Touchstone[Catalogs of Enlightenment{Pride Domain}]. And if you have dodge/mobility there are piles and piles and piles of feat options if you comb through enough splats and dragon magazine.


But to tweak your suggestion:

Festina Lente [General]
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +12.
<Some description that explains why this does what it does>
Benefit: Whenever one of your melee or ranged attacks misses an opponent your current initiative count improves by 3. This change in the initiative order takes effect on the start of the next round, and lasts until the end of the encounter.

Furthermore, once per day you may add your base attack bonus to an initiative roll or other dexterity check.

A fighter may select Festina Lente as one of his fighter bonus feats.


---

The above also makes it better for fighters than casters that took dodge/mobility for some strange reason. Not the most amazing feat, but it's at least sure to be useful.

Thank you! Amazing feedback! I like your idea of adding BAB to to initiative! Reasonable, simple and effective! I still think that initiative is highly undervalued.