Nearby Game Store Found - Farewell Play-by-Post, Farewell Online Roleplaying

[Aron Times]

tl;dr: D&D is best played face-to-face. :elan: :roy:

I'm not sure if this is appropriate for this forum, but I felt like I had to share my experiences with play-by-post and other forms of online roleplaying.

I first started PbP back in around 2003 or 2004. That was when I felt disillusioned and disconnected from the Old Country, and when I started working towards immigrating to the New World. I found a website called rpol.net, and signed up using an email address from a now-defunct email provider (i-mailbox.net). Tried playing several games, mostly D&D 3.5 with a handful of World of Darkness games, none of which went anywhere. Gameplay was slow, and players would quickly drop out after the first week. None of my games lasted over two months, with most dying after two weeks.

I then tried playing through MapTool and OpenRPG. MapTool was wonderful for playing D&D 4e on, or rather, it was wonderful for me because it was my only way of playing with others; I couldn't drive and I lived in the middle of nowhere, and the nearest game shop was around 40+ miles away. Still, it was slow. Not as slow as play-by-post, but still slow. Most of the slowness was caused by players not paying attention or not knowing how their powers worked. By making each class equally complex and equally balanced, D&D 4e ironically made it worse. Some players preferred simple classes, while others preferred the more complex ones. Even game balance wasn't as important as the simple joy of hanging out with friends. None of these were a factor in online roleplaying, which exacerbated the edition's flaws.

Moved on to several other sites. The Playground, Myth-Weavers, Tangled Weave, etc. None of my games ever worked out. All of them petered out to unsatisfying conclusions. Tried playing on dedicated roleplaying sites. A few were dedicated to a vampire RPG, another was dedicated to D&D. These are among my worst experiences in RPGs ever. The vampire roleplaying site was virulently anti-optimization (I got called out for building my characters around mechanical concepts, even though they have detailed and and fleshed-out backgrounds, personalities, and supporting NPCs) and plagued with rampant favoritism. The D&D site was run by a rather vicious individual who took her roleplaying way too seriously. I called her out in their forums, and to my surprise, almost everyone backed me up (they called her out for flying off the handle and being very mean to everyone in chat). Her boyfriend/husband/lover was her sole defender.

I've found that online roleplaying is way too serious, way too stuck up about rules and conduct and "proper play" (agreeing with the DM's contrived and arbitrary rules). Most PbP games have players create characters in a vacuum. Even here, in the Playground, most people apply to join PbP games with characters already made. There's no group character creation where everyone makes characters that are related to each other and work well with each other and function well with each other. You could have a game with three rogues applying to join, one wizard, and no clerics or fighters. None of them have any shared back stories, none of them feel compelled to work together to craft a cohesive group. Most of them will disappear after two to three weeks.

Over the years, I've quit PbP, gone back to it, quit it again, gone back to it again, and quit it again. Now, I'm quitting it for good. P&P RPGs are best played face-to-face. I see that now. I recently found an FLGS within 21 miles of my house. There were three D&D games being played there when I first found the place. It was simultaneously more serious and more relaxed than all PbP games I've ever been in. Games flowed more smoothly compared to the sluggish nature of PbP and other online forms of roleplaying. People were more at ease with each other, and also more respectful of each other's differences (since they could see each other's body language and react accordingly). :miko: :redcloak:

It took me 13 years to realize this, but D&D is best played face-to-face. Farewell, PbP, farewell, online roleplaying.

No, I'm not leaving the Playground, just quitting PbP. You won't be rid of me that easily. :roach::roach::roach:

[Comet]

That's great!

You're right, roleplaying games are a conversation and it's much easier to have a conversation when the other person is right there in front of you :smallbiggrin:

[mowque]

First: Of course you must do whatever you think is best. If you only want to play Live that is fine, and up to you!

But I disagree entirely with your post.

I have been playing PbP games for a few years now and love every minute of it. My key?

Solo games.

One GM and one player.

No worry about speed, it goes exactly as fast as you want. You get a good feel for theme and 'flavor' for the player, and can communicate it easily. You can be as optimized as you like, it is impossible to be OP in a solo game. No one to overshadow!

The game's themes and plots can be totally engineered around a players backstory, mechanics and personal likes and dislikes. It is PbP so you can actually really get into character motivations, feelings, observations. Truly describe places, people and things. In contrast live games are very..empty of such IC stuff.

I find it off you clashed with the site owners and admins. I used the pazio site and have never had any dealings, We just, you know, play PbP games.

[Aron Times]

tl;dr: Successful, long-running games don't usually recruit new players. A long-running game that constantly recruits new members is not a successful one.

I wasn't talking about Paizo Publishing. The sites I referred to are privately-owned sites not affiliated with their respective games' companies. IIRC, I played on three vampire sites and four D&D sites, none of which were affiliated with White Wolf/Onyx Path or WotC/Paizo. I've found the official sites (the ones run by the actual companies) to be much more fair in their dealings with people who disagree with them. The sites I went to, on the other hand, gave off a clannish and cultish vibe.

I generally try to avoid clashing with people on the Internet. I prefer avoiding conflict whenever possible, but when your entire submission is ignored just because you mentioned in one line that your character was based on a certain game mechanic, when you get viciously attacked for not being a "true roleplayer" for that one line in a multi-page submission, yeah, I take issue with that.

The biggest problem I had with those sites was that the site owners spent so much energy to ensure ideological purity. It wasn't enough that you got along with the other members; you had to agree with the party line. Sites like the Playground are such a breath of fresh air compared to these sites because you don't have to blindly agree with Rich and Roland and the other staff; you just have to follow the rules and get along with others. Rich and company also don't try to impose their beliefs on forum members, unlike the sites I had the misfortune of visiting.

A forum member on the old Gleemax forums pointed out that successful, established games generally do not recruit new members on a regular basis. Those games tend to have players who are satisfied with the game, and there is little reason to leave or to find new members to replace those that leave. Long-running games which regularly recruit new members, and who have members regularly leaving tend to have problems. The fact that they were constantly recruiting was a warning sign. The fact that players regularly disappeared was another warning sign.

I see it clearly now. Those sites had lots of openings because they had a lot of turnover. I was not the only one who was dissatisfied with the way they ran things. Maybe they started screening people to figure out who they'd get along with, and who would agree with them. Ironically, this drive for purity probably drove off more people from those sites than the number of new regulars they added to their rosters.

[Crake]

First: Of course you must do whatever you think is best. If you only want to play Live that is fine, and up to you!

But I disagree entirely with your post.

I have been playing PbP games for a few years now and love every minute of it. My key?

Solo games.

One GM and one player.

No worry about speed, it goes exactly as fast as you want. You get a good feel for theme and 'flavor' for the player, and can communicate it easily. You can be as optimized as you like, it is impossible to be OP in a solo game. No one to overshadow!

The game's themes and plots can be totally engineered around a players backstory, mechanics and personal likes and dislikes. It is PbP so you can actually really get into character motivations, feelings, observations. Truly describe places, people and things. In contrast live games are very..empty of such IC stuff.

I find it off you clashed with the site owners and admins. I used the pazio site and have never had any dealings, We just, you know, play PbP games.

A lot of people enjoy a group experience when they go to play rpgs. While I admit I have had my fair share of one on one play (mainly on the GM's side), for myself and a lot of my players it doesn't feel worth it if it has no impact beyond just the two of you.

As for online play, I've actually had a decent experience running a roll20 game, though I've had to cycle people due to timezone changes, it's been for the most part a very pleasant experience. Admittedly, I'm the one running the game, so I have far more control over what's going on than the average player, but I make a feedback thread every week on the campaign forums and always address any player concerns before they become issues.

That all said, yes, playing around a table will always be better, but playing around a table with good friends is the best.

[Mutazoia]

Well, I hate to tell you this, but your online experiences are not that much different from real world experiences. Basically, you try different groups until you find one you work with. It just takes longer with online games, because you are not dealing with people directly.

ANY new group you join is going to have it's own customs and foibles, online or IRL. Then only "safe" method of joining a group that you click with, is to start one yourself, with people you've known for a while.

[Aron Times]

A lot of people enjoy a group experience when they go to play rpgs. While I admit I have had my fair share of one on one play (mainly on the GM's side), for myself and a lot of my players it doesn't feel worth it if it has no impact beyond just the two of you.

As for online play, I've actually had a decent experience running a roll20 game, though I've had to cycle people due to timezone changes, it's been for the most part a very pleasant experience. Admittedly, I'm the one running the game, so I have far more control over what's going on than the average player, but I make a feedback thread every week on the campaign forums and always address any player concerns before they become issues.

That all said, yes, playing around a table will always be better, but playing around a table with good friends is the best.
I completely agree. roll20 and MapTool were a lot better than PbP but scheduling conflicts made them problematic. I find that the realtime interaction, especially when combined with voice chat, helps to convey a lot of the nonverbal communication that is lost in PbP. It's not bad, in fact, it's actually pretty good, but the logistics is the killer here.


Well, I hate to tell you this, but your online experiences are not that much different from real world experiences. Basically, you try different groups until you find one you work with. It just takes longer with online games, because you are not dealing with people directly.

ANY new group you join is going to have it's own customs and foibles, online or IRL. Then only "safe" method of joining a group that you click with, is to start one yourself, with people you've known for a while.

There's a huge difference between online and offline groups when it comes to player/group compatibility. Offline, you get to learn the new group's quirks very quickly, and you can determine whether or not they're good for you before you get too invested in the group. Also, face-to-face play has the advantage of the new player and the group being more accommodating to each other compared to the impersonal nature of PbP. I've found that with few exceptions, PbP groups tend to be far more intolerant of differing opinions and playstyles compared to face-to-face play.

I've also had a lot of problems with DMs leading me on in PbP, making me go through an extensive character creation process only to choose someone else and not bother to tell me that I haven't been chosen. Also, PbP is plagued, from my POV, with "real roleplayers" who dismiss those who care about the rules as "munchkins" or "powergamers," when rules are what makes RPGs what they are.

Every single World of Darkness game I've played in in real life bore no resemblance to how it is portrayed in the books, and how it is played in PbP games. WoD games, be they Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, oWoD, or nWoD, have always leaned towards Superheroes with Fangs than anything else. While the face-to-face games I've been in sometimes had coherent plots and moments of seriousness, they have never, ever been the OMG SO GRIMDARK I REGRET MY LOST HUMANITAS BOO HOO HOO I CAN NEVER SEE THE SUN AGAIN types of wangst-fests I've encountered online.

While I can't stand 100% slapstick games that don't take anything seriously, I've found that opposite extreme is much worse. More often than not, PbP games take themselves way, way too seriously and kill all of the fun I associate with RPGs.