Is 40Str at level 10 too much?

[Azoth]

18 base
+2 Racial (Half Giant)
+2 (level up)
+2 Enhancement (belt)
+4 Size (Righteous Might)
+4 Morale (Rage subdomain)
+4 Profane (Brutal Strikes)
+4 Alchemical (Zerk Addiction)
Total=40 Str

My current character can maintain this for 13 rounds/day. The DM is fine with it and can manage me right now just fine.

My party on the other hand is calling the character "broken", " too op", "why is he adventuring with us?" level. I am not invalidating the party BSF because I am the only melee combatant we have.

When I asked about it, all they kept pointing to way my STR and damage. Nothing about being a caster and easy win buttons. Just that my character is physically too strong when he is provoked into that mode, which has happened ONCE to date.

Should I tone it back? Scrap the toon? Tell then to get over it?

[Snowbluff]

10 + 10 x 1.5 = 25.

(40 - 10) / 2 = 15.

I'd say tone it down a bit.

[inuyasha]

Now you just need to find dodge bonuses to Str, then you'll be perfect!

[Azoth]

Now you just need to find dodge bonuses to Str, then you'll be perfect!

Nope. Dodge, Luck, Sacred, Insight, Competence, Circumstance.

More seriously, the 40 can only be maintained a maximum of 13 rounds/day. That is if I prep multiple Righteous Might's in my sparse 5th lvl spell slots.

Without the buffs it is 28, which I will admit is still high for level 10. Considering most lvl 10 casters are running around with 22-26 unless they spent more than 1/2 WBL on a +6 mental item.

[Gildedragon]

Ditch the Zerk, and alternate between casting and being the BSF.
That or ask the DM for longer adventuring days

[Azoth]

Ditch the Zerk, and alternate between casting and being the BSF.
That or ask the DM for longer adventuring days

I have let myself reach that strength score once. During the showdown with the last arc's BBEG.

I intentionally don't let the character reach that level because he is aware that is can only be maintained for a very brief period, and its full power can only be reached when he is completely emotionally invested in tapping that strength.

It has two IC trigger conditions that are designed to be rarely met. The rest of my group, that includes a GOD WIZARD feels I am too powerful because I can get my strength that high. It has nothing to do with spamming it, or using it to show off, or threatening to use it on them. It is simply the idea of a guy with 40 STR seems too ridiculous to them.

[Aegis013]

My party on the other hand is calling the character "broken", " too op", "why is he adventuring with us?" level. I am not invalidating the party BSF because I am the only melee combatant we have.
...
Should I tone it back? Scrap the toon? Tell then to get over it?


The only metrics of if X amount of Y thing is too much are going to be wholly subjective and depend entirely on your gaming table. Seems like your answer is right there in the feedback you were provided. Even if your character is by the boards standards about in line with the rest of the table's op level, your party mates clearly don't feel that way and the way they feel is not something you can control, but your character is. As long as it'll still be fun for you, tone it back.

So, tone it back if you can do so without eliminating your own fun. If toning back would eliminate your fun then optimize just as much with a less effective (or less obviously effective) concept.

[Gildedragon]

I have let myself reach that strength score once. During the showdown with the last arc's BBEG.

I intentionally don't let the character reach that level because he is aware that is can only be maintained for a very brief period, and its full power can only be reached when he is completely emotionally invested in tapping that strength.

It has two IC trigger conditions that are designed to be rarely met. The rest of my group, that includes a GOD WIZARD feels I am too powerful because I can get my strength that high. It has nothing to do with spamming it, or using it to show off, or threatening to use it on them. It is simply the idea of a guy with 40 STR seems too ridiculous to them.

I see... Tone it down a bit and bring it up a couple levels hence. Ditch the profane and the alchemical bonuses for now... And act as the party packmule

[Tuvarkz]

It's fine, it's just your party's casters being annoyed at a martial having a bit too much fun.

[Florian]

Now imagine what would happen if you also had Dragon Style for the 2,5x STR multiplier on a charge.

Ok, that aside, STR 40 at level 10 is way above the benchmark, especially considering how much further that can be pushed.
But, and that is also important, it doesn´t help against anything with a percentile miss chance, which is a very common form of defensive, so it is far away from being overpowered.

[the_david]

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you're sacrificing at least some dexterity. It should also take some rounds to get those spells up and running. I don't know how Zerk works, but there will probably be some drawback to it to.

Now I take it you're playing a Cleric. You should be able to do a lot more than just melee at this point. At least they aren't complaining that you're not healing them during battle.

I once had a similar character for Pathfinder. Half-giant barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 1. He was able to use Expansion without spending power points and he had the Extra Rage feat so he could use this tactic more often. He nearly killed a party member when he was targeted with a murderous command. I can see you found a way around that though.

[CGNefarious]

Honestly I think the real problem here is that you only have 40 Strength. You're level 10. Try and push yourself a little bit. :smallwink:

[Necroticplague]

Simply having a high stat isn't overpowering. A stat is only as useful as the benefits you can derive from it. All more STR gives you is melee damage and accuracy. Damage and accuracy can be done better by other means than just pumping up STR, in addition to not being an end-all-be-all of fighting (still need to get in range, make sure you're attacking with something they aren't immune to, ect.). Thus, this isn't that powerful.

Incidentally, you said this lasts for 13 rounds/day. How much set-up time is it to get all these buffs up?

[Azoth]

Simply having a high stat isn't overpowering. A stat is only as useful as the benefits you can derive from it. All more STR gives you is melee damage and accuracy. Damage and accuracy can be done better by other means than just pumping up STR, in addition to not being an end-all-be-all of fighting (still need to get in range, make sure you're attacking with something they aren't immune to, ect.). Thus, this isn't that powerful.

Incidentally, you said this lasts for 13 rounds/day. How much set-up time is it to get all these buffs up?

The 13 rounds/day is the limit of my rage rounds.

Zerk is always active, as it is a side effect of addiction.

Rage is a free action.

Brutal Strikes is a swift action.

Righteous Might is a standard action.

So one buff round and I am good.

I can and do, do more as a Cleric. The issue is while everyone else is hiding in the back, no one is left to face enemies head on and stop them from ganking the squishies. So I step up and lay a smack down. If I needed to, I could drop Rage, cast a few spells, and then resume.

[Hogsy]

The 13 rounds/day is the limit of my rage rounds.

Zerk is always active, as it is a side effect of addiction.

Rage is a free action.

Brutal Strikes is a swift action.

Righteous Might is a standard action.

So one buff round and I am good.

I can and do, do more as a Cleric. The issue is while everyone else is hiding in the back, no one is left to face enemies head on and stop them from ganking the squishies. So I step up and lay a smack down. If I needed to, I could drop Rage, cast a few spells, and then resume.

To be honest, it sounds to me like your party is crying because they can't optimize as properly and never have so they consider things that aren't even near to being broken as broken. The same thing happened to me, all you have to do is explain to them what broken or overpowered means in d&d means and hopefully they'll understand. Too much damage is the least form of "OP" in d&d. I'd personally go even further just to get on their nerves but that wouldn't be too much fun for everyone. Still, try to explain them as calmly as possible that they're pretty much ruining your moments and your fun by being annoying for no actual reason. If they're adults, they'll understand. That's what I did and since then my party actually finds my Spellslinger kinda cool, and when he does do something cool they cheer for him. Isn't that the ideal scenario? Who cares if something does too much damage? It's an EPIC moment!

[Florian]

To be honest, it sounds to me like your party is crying because they can't optimize as properly and never have so they consider things that aren't even near to being broken as broken.

Considering that this doesn´t even come near the pure hurt a dedicated Barbarian or Fighter can deliver or the abuse that is possible with an Oracle, that´s not even close to being broken.

[Necroticplague]

To be honest, it sounds to me like your party is crying because they can't optimize as properly and never have so they consider things that aren't even near to being broken as broken. The same thing happened to me, all you have to do is explain to them what broken or overpowered means in d&d means and hopefully they'll understand. Too much damage is the least form of "OP" in d&d.

This. In my own experience, those without much optimization knowledge tend to have knee-jerk reactions to any big number.

[martixy]

18 base
+2 Racial (Half Giant)
+2 (level up)
+2 Enhancement (belt)
+4 Size (Righteous Might)
+4 Morale (Rage subdomain)
+4 Profane (Brutal Strikes)
+4 Alchemical (Zerk Addiction)
Total=40 Str

My current character can maintain this for 13 rounds/day. The DM is fine with it and can manage me right now just fine.

My party on the other hand is calling the character "broken", " too op", "why is he adventuring with us?" level. I am not invalidating the party BSF because I am the only melee combatant we have.

When I asked about it, all they kept pointing to way my STR and damage. Nothing about being a caster and easy win buttons. Just that my character is physically too strong when he is provoked into that mode, which has happened ONCE to date.

Should I tone it back? Scrap the toon? Tell then to get over it?

You're fine.

It's just number envy on their part.

Tell them to mind their own business.
Alternatively offer to help optimize their characters.
If that unearths another fallacy you just have more ammo when you tell them to mind their own business again.

[Honest Tiefling]

The DM is fine with it. I think you should examine the characters of other players. Are you invalidating them? This is a serious question, but if you have a God Wizard, I feel as if it is a kneejerk reaction. How well is the rest of the party being played?

If you destroyed the BBEG of the arc with a few hits, you...Might need to tone it down or convince them to ramp it up.

[upho]

I think there are two solutions:

Suck it up and lower the Str. Your fellow players may be in error fixating on numbers rather than the numbers' actual effect on the game, but their opinion is what matters.
Educate your fellow players. Show them what actually is OP and that whether a 40 Str has anything to do with being OP is highly dependent on to which degree you can put that number to work. Which is typically "not very much" as a cleric. If you had been an Unchained Monk, a barbarian or bloodrager, that could've been a different story though.

If you're going for the second option, you can begin by letting them know there are plenty of Str-based builds that can seriously out-damage your cleric at 10th level, despite having less than 30 in Str (especially in practice).

[Tuvarkz]

I think there are two solutions:

Suck it up and lower the Str. Your fellow players may be in error fixating on numbers rather than the numbers' actual effect on the game, but their opinion is what matters.
Educate your fellow players. Show them what actually is OP and that whether a 40 Str has anything to do with being OP is highly dependent on to which degree you can put that number to work. Which is typically "not very much" as a cleric. If you had been an Unchained Monk, a barbarian or bloodrager, that could've been a different story though.

If you're going for the second option, you can begin by letting them know there are plenty of Str-based builds that can seriously out-damage your cleric at 10th level, despite having less than 30 in Str (especially in practice).

Eh, not exactly, at level 10 there's only a 3 point BAB difference, which means that a +3/+4 difference in strength modifier catches up-level 11 is a minimally fairer breakpoint as full BAB charas get an extra, if innacurate, bonus attack. And then it's still a very much different story. At that level, a 28 or so Int Wizard is far much more scarier than a 40 Str character regardless of the class.

[mauk2]

It's fine, it's just your party's casters being annoyed at a martial having a bit too much fun.

What this guy said, 100 percent.

If your DM is cool with it, all is well.

Also, sounds like fun! :) Be sure to show off every now and then, say by pressing a stagecoach overhead, or lifting a ten ton portcullis. :)

[Tvtyrant]

I once made a Goliath for my brother who wielded a huge Minotaur Greathammer while raging and could crit out to 150 damage when critting, and had a very high crit range (16 and up) at level 6. He so completely outclassed the party that he was killing CR 12-13 monsters while the rest of the party was struggling with CR 8.

I never even thought about the problem of the build because it seemed pretty weak compared to a lot of builds until I watched it in a real game. There is no objective line for abilities, it is all subjective.

[Azoth]

I have been trying my best to educate these guys&gals on optimization. Most of them still think Path of War is more broken than a full caster because initiators can use their abilities all day long. They also have a hard time understanding the damage numbers an initiator puts out are often times less than those of a Barbarian of similar optimization.

The last martial I played in a mid level game with them was a Barbarian 12/Dragon Fury1. The idea that I could easily hit someone 6+ times for every time they swung on me shocked them, comboed with the ability to pounce into position made me "too op" again. Meanwhile the party conjurer is planar binding himself an army of demons that he is Geasing into free service (with DM permission) to use as pawns and that isn't borked.

[martixy]

What this guy said, 100 percent.

If your DM is cool with it, all is well.

Also, sounds like fun! :) Be sure to show off every now and then, say by pressing a stagecoach overhead, or lifting a ten ton portcullis. :)

Just dead-lifting it though. Really showing off means overhead lift. You need to squeeze out 4 more Str. Which between upgrading the +Str item, inherent bonuses and level up bonuses you can easily manage.

By L20 he'd be 52 with +6 item, +5 inherent and +3 from the remaining level-based ability increases.
Heck, just by L14 he'd have enough WBL to hit 50.

[elonin]

Are you outshining the group? Are they trying to optimize and simply just not know how? Does the group think that martial characters have all the fun or do they think martials shouldn't have any?

I've run into people who play blaster wizards (not even mailmen) who think the numbers support that style of play.

[Azoth]

Are you outshining the group? Are they trying to optimize and simply just not know how? Does the group think that martial characters have all the fun or do they think martials shouldn't have any?

I've run into people who play blaster wizards (not even mailmen) who think the numbers support that style of play.

Most either shun the help I offer as if it is an affront to their pride, have me make the toon for them, or try to rebuild my old toons.

One is trying to learn, but gets very caught up in fluff. He is not of the school that "fluff is mutable", so it can make it hard to get him to disregard a preconceived notion of a class/feat/ability, and use it because it is mechanically what he wants or a superior way to do what he wants. He is learning slowly, and has taken to running wizards/summoners a lot.

When I don't HULK out, I do not overshadow anyone by the numbers. Some people feel I do because of the image of a Half-Giant smashing people to death while one handing a large Drawven War Axe to be more spotlight getting than the guy dropping ranged death from about 100ft away.

[elonin]

Maybe difficult but fluff is just a starting point. Sounds like they're getting caught up in stereotypes.

[Hogsy]

I think there are two solutions:

Suck it up and lower the Str. Your fellow players may be in error fixating on numbers rather than the numbers' actual effect on the game, but their opinion is what matters.
Educate your fellow players. Show them what actually is OP and that whether a 40 Str has anything to do with being OP is highly dependent on to which degree you can put that number to work. Which is typically "not very much" as a cleric. If you had been an Unchained Monk, a barbarian or bloodrager, that could've been a different story though.

If you're going for the second option, you can begin by letting them know there are plenty of Str-based builds that can seriously out-damage your cleric at 10th level, despite having less than 30 in Str (especially in practice).

While I believe that everyone needs to make some small compromises now and then so the entire party can have fun, his party sounds WAY too stuck-up and acting in a very immature way. I don't think he should tone it down and let them think that what they're doing is somehow justified because they'll simply keep on doing it. That's what I did with my party for a while until I didn't even want to play with them anymore. Once in a session when I critted and 1-shot a Beholder I simply snapped and explained in a very straight-forward way that if I wanted to be broken I wouldn't play a blaster wizard but a god wizard and have solars 1-shot beholders in my stead, asked them if that's what they wanted since they were so scared of big numbers and we ended up somehow coming to an understanding. His party NEEDS to understand that his character is not OP, they need to understand what is and what isn't OP. if they think that full casters are weaker than Path of War(I can't even comprehend their train of thought at this point) simply because martials dominate the earlier stages of the game with their sheer damage then there's a problem, and that problem will stop people from having fun in the future so it needs to be resolved. That's simply my opinion and how I think he should deal with this based on my own experience with a similar party. Let them think that too much damage is overpowered for too long and they'll start calling monks stronger than wizards. That statement alone is enough to drive a man insane. The same party once called a Warlock who could throw a 5d6 Eldritch Blast 3/day or 4/day at 4th level broken. That is simply put WRONG. You aren't there so your character can be the ONLY one dealing damage, or being the only one capable of fulfilling the face role, or in general saving the day. Everyone takes their turn in the spotlight and they need to see that before more people come running to the forums to validate their build as "not too much". And they don't even accept his help because they're too proud? Proud of what? Playing a character whose only optimization is having level 7+ spells?

[Phenrix]

As a standard baseline, the game rules state that a natural, un-altered or buffed stat can be 20. But spells are alternate effects can boost this [I]indefinitely[I]. This alone coupled with the DM approval justifies the total. And to be completely fair, you can boost that even further with things like additional buff spells and potions.

The matter of efficient/min-max/number cruncher character builds is a tad more complicated. Make sure the rest of the group is aware that not only are the resources there for them as well, but that each character type has their own way to be "op" depending on how the player goes about making the character. I am frequently asked how exactly i accomplish some incredible things, and every time i have to slowly show my group each book, every entry/feat/synergy/ect. Sometimes they learn something, sometimes they cant get passed the fluff or the cross referencing.

Regardless of the cause of the problem, the simple fact is that the game is for everyone to enjoy. So if your party is getting frustrated that your character is "stealing the show", and feel like their characters are not accomplishing enough, then some kind of compromise needs to be met. If they wont do the work or always ask you, then just tell them to choose a set of books, and read them. There isnt much more you can do.

[martixy]

Regardless of the cause of the problem, the simple fact is that the game is for everyone to enjoy. So if your party is getting frustrated that your character is "stealing the show", and feel like their characters are not accomplishing enough, then some kind of compromise needs to be met. If they wont do the work or always ask you, then just tell them to choose a set of books, and read them. There isnt much more you can do.

Not when it's based on knee-jerk reactions.
You make lynch mobs sound benevolent.

[Barstro]

The issue is while everyone else is hiding in the back, no one is left to face enemies head on and stop them from ganking the squishies.

That's enough for me. Your character has a single OP trick that protects the party. Pretty much the only thing I can think of (but now it's too late because it's catering to whiners) is for the DM to present you with a problem that will soak up your ability to do this. A couple fights after those 13 rounds when your character is prohibited from protecting the casters as much might have them singing a different tune.

But, I'm a bit biased since I also play characters that can be OP, yet I play them sub-optimal for as long as possible; until the party is close to a TPK. My only other suggestion is that you take a role that is more damage abatement than it is damage dealing. Do less damage, let the fights last longer, let the casters actually get four to five rounds in to do whatever it is they want to do.

[Hogsy]

That's enough for me. Your character has a single OP trick that protects the party. Pretty much the only thing I can think of (but now it's too late because it's catering to whiners) is for the DM to present you with a problem that will soak up your ability to do this. A couple fights after those 13 rounds when your character is prohibited from protecting the casters as much might have them singing a different tune.

But, I'm a bit biased since I also play characters that can be OP, yet I play them sub-optimal for as long as possible; until the party is close to a TPK. My only other suggestion is that you take a role that is more damage abatement than it is damage dealing. Do less damage, let the fights last longer, let the casters actually get four to five rounds in to do whatever it is they want to do.


I'd say let the casters get in four to five rounds in to do whatever they want to do or as long as necessary to show them that the person they're whining about is carrying their slack and helps them survive each encounter. *Evil grin*

[Max Caysey]

I once made one with 94 str. At level 20 though.... He

[Hogsy]

18 base
+2 Racial (Half Giant)
+2 (level up)
+2 Enhancement (belt)
+4 Size (Righteous Might)
+4 Morale (Rage subdomain)
+4 Profane (Brutal Strikes)
+4 Alchemical (Zerk Addiction)
Total=40 Str

My current character can maintain this for 13 rounds/day. The DM is fine with it and can manage me right now just fine.

My party on the other hand is calling the character "broken", " too op", "why is he adventuring with us?" level. I am not invalidating the party BSF because I am the only melee combatant we have.

When I asked about it, all they kept pointing to way my STR and damage. Nothing about being a caster and easy win buttons. Just that my character is physically too strong when he is provoked into that mode, which has happened ONCE to date.

Should I tone it back? Scrap the toon? Tell then to get over it?



Where'd you get Brutal Strikes from? Can't seem to find them anywhere.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't this power be better? "Might of the Gods (Su): At 8th level, you can add your cleric level as an enhancement bonus to your Strength score for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. This bonus only applies on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive." Sure, it's an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with a belt but that means that you can save money for some gimmicky magic item or something utility-based. Plus, I find the fact it scales rather interesting. At lvl 20 you'd have +2 Racial, +6 Belt, +4 Level Up, + 10 Enhancement, +4 Profane and +4 Zerk, +4 Size for a total of 52 Strength and you could cast the Rage spell on you for +2 morale which could stack with a +8 Courageous+Furious weapon for +8 Morale for a total of 60 strength plus the + 7 from to-hit and damage from the weapon(This is based on the interpretation of furious which would make a +5 weapon's pure enhancement weapon go beyond the cap up to +7 during a rage. Otherwise, it'd be +6 Morale and +5 to-hit and damage.) and could possibly go even further up. Don't ever use this, just make sure they know you can do it for the sole reason of witnessing their expressions. Seriously, what kind of person whines so much about a NUMBER that isn't even being USED?

[waccio]

I remember playing an orc campaing with a brb1/cleric 19:smallbiggrin:. Starting at lvl 1 with domain restrictions. Since the Orc society was brutal, it was superfun to enter Supersaiyan mode! Meanwhile, the fighter make it possible as it took like 3 rounds to buff.


I'd say let the casters get in four to five rounds in to do whatever they want to do or as long as necessary to show them that the person they're whining about is carrying their slack and helps them survive each encounter. *Evil grin*

Amen! Let them miss their savior!

[T.G. Oskar]

Simply having a high stat isn't overpowering. A stat is only as useful as the benefits you can derive from it. All more STR gives you is melee damage and accuracy. Damage and accuracy can be done better by other means than just pumping up STR, in addition to not being an end-all-be-all of fighting (still need to get in range, make sure you're attacking with something they aren't immune to, ect.). Thus, this isn't that powerful.

Actually, Strength is slightly more useful than just "melee attack/damage"; this might be something to consider, as they might just see it that way ("he never fails when he attacks! He deals so much damage, we're not getting any fun!")

Strength also determines the success rate of your combat maneuvers - as it stands, he has a +15 when Bull Rushing, Disarming, Dragging, Grappling, Repositioning and Tripping, because Strength modifies your total CMB (do note that, because of Cleric levels, the total BAB will be lower, but that's at most 2-3 points less, so it's effectively a +12 to CMB). Not only that, you can use Strength checks to burst open locks and doors, so when a Rogue or a character with Disable Device is not around, the OP's character can actually contribute on that part of exploring. It also makes some classic BFC spells (mostly Black Tentacles) less effective, as CMD/Strength checks once again come to play. Both boosts make increasing Strength quite valuable...

...except that the first comes to play only if you use Combat Maneuvers (which can be boosted by other means), and the latter is rarely used if you have the ways to bypass it (Knock, high Disable Device skill). The main use of Strength is melee combat, and that is most likely what people are crying foul at - a viciously strong character that deals blows far beyond what they can do. Everything seems to boil to one of two things: the stat number is too high ("It's unfair! Why can't I have my Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha that high!?") or what you do with that number can overwhelm the rest ("It's unfair! He never misses except on a 1, and he deals oodles of damage!")

First things first, OP - your character is a Half-Giant, which means you're allowing DSP content. That might not be kosher to most people, because you're using 3rd-party content, and if they don't, it sends the signal for "munchkin" to some. That's mostly irrelevant given all the races with Strength boosts that are actually 1st-party (I mean, Humans and Half-Orcs get Strength boosts, and no Wis penalty to compare). Item and level-up bonuses are pretty standard (that you can achieve STR 40 Max by level 10 with just boosts and a simple item, without inherent bonuses, is not really awe-inspiring). Zerk gives a +1d4 alchemical bonus to Strength, so it can range between 1 to 4 extra points, so it's not always 40; by average, max STR should be 38.5, so functionally it'll be STR 38, so that's one less point that you can rely upon (unless I'm missing something about maxing drug bonuses?); furthermore, unless you use Remove Disease to remove the addiction (really cheap move there, Paizo, making addictions easy to remove!), you might suffer the addiction penalties, which coincidentally involve a -2 penalty to Strength. The Rage subdomain ability is temporary, as well as the Righteous Might spell, are temporary, but one is not so hard to justify (1st person party) and the other is Core. That justifies everything except one thing.

Where's Brutal Strikes at? Is it a spell, a feat, something else? Without justifying that, there's a -4 reduction to Strength right there, that everyone in your party can fight for the DM to push out. That would leave you with a STR 32 by level 10 when buffed, up to STR 36 when Zerk'ed. Still high, but at least the number is lower, and aside from Half-Giant (which is mechanically indistinct to any other race with a Strength bonus other than "I can wield a Large weapon without penalty!", because the size "benefit" of Powerful Build gets roughly cancelled with the use of Righteous Might), everything is 1st-party content, so anyone could get it with some digging. I mean, it's all in ONE (web)page, for goodness sakes!

That said - your fellow players just won't accept the Gentleman's Agreement. To most of us, it doesn't stink of cheese, because huge loads of damage on an atypical character doesn't really show as that - to your fellow players, though, it might happen to feel like it, because they struggle to stack all those bonuses without sacrificing a lot of things from their build, if they're even thinking of a build. We all know what a God Wizard can pull off, whether in 3.5 or PF, but your party's God Wizard might feel that you're too capable of pushing your weight for him to feel "useful", as GWs tend to thrive on making everyone feel better, and buffing you is basically adding salt to the wound. You require a few rounds of buffing to achieve that (or else, STR 24, which is reasonable at 10th level), but it seems your party just doesn't like the idea of having that kind of firepower. Maybe they fear the DM's wrath (getting monsters they can't beat unless you're around, thus draining their fun in the sake of challenging you), and they feel that the Gentleman's Agreement is not dissuasive enough to prevent the DM from doing so?

Also...just for the sake of completion: how did your party found out about your potential for 40 STR? That can be a big piece to the puzzle.

[Tuvarkz]

Brutal Strikes are from the Brutal Slayer stalker archetype from PoW:Expanded, which activate on either a crit, or can be popped as a swift action with the proper Stalker Art.

[SorenKnight]

I think the key here isn't to ask, "Is this okay?" but "How can I convince my fellow players that this is okay?" I'd start by asking them whether it really impacts their fun and how. If the best objection is that 40 is ridiculously high, remind them that waving your hands and muttering to summon demons is also ridiculous. Just as the Merlin does the impossible, so does the Hercules. Both options should be available for play and they don't seem to have any objections to the wizard doing his thing. If they object based on damage output tell them that a power attacking unchained monk with dragon style, or a power attacking two handed fighter could be dealing the same damage with much lower strength due to multipliers. Does it really matter that you do it due to prodigious strength and they do it because their superior skill leveraging their lesser strength?

Obviously you know them better than I do, but hopefully some of that will be useful. Good luck.:smallsmile:


EDIT: Also, wouldn't this power be better? "Might of the Gods (Su): At 8th level, you can add your cleric level as an enhancement bonus to your Strength score for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. This bonus only applies on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. These rounds do not need to be consecutive." Sure, it's an enhancement bonus so it doesn't stack with a belt but that means that you can save money for some gimmicky magic item or something utility-based. Plus, I find the fact it scales rather interesting. At lvl 20 you'd have +2 Racial, +6 Belt, +4 Level Up, + 10 Enhancement, +4 Profane and +4 Zerk, +4 Size for a total of 52 Strength and you could cast the Rage spell on you for +2 morale which could stack with a +8 Courageous+Furious weapon for +8 Morale for a total of 60 strength plus the + 7 from to-hit and damage from the weapon(This is based on the interpretation of furious which would make a +5 weapon's pure enhancement weapon go beyond the cap up to +7 during a rage. Otherwise, it'd be +6 Morale and +5 to-hit and damage.) and could possibly go even further up. Don't ever use this, just make sure they know you can do it for the sole reason of witnessing their expressions. Seriously, what kind of person whines so much about a NUMBER that isn't even being USED?

Bolded for emphasis

This doesn't really work that well sadly. Might of the Gods only applies to checks and skill checks, not attack rolls or CMB. Most abilities that increase weapon bonus specify a limit and everything seems to suggest that enhancement bonuses of higher than +5 are simply impossible. Even if Courageous doesn't have a explicit limit it brings him from looking like cheese to actually being cheese. And that's a bad transition to make, he should try to get them to accept his character, not beat them over the head with the fact that he could do worse. A +2 or +3 Courageous Furious weapon on the other hand, is something that he might want to get eventually, if he doesn't decide to show deliberate restraint for the delicate sensibilities of his fellow players. I'm honestly kind of surprised he doesn't already have one.

[ericgrau]

About 30 str is fine. I mean a barbarian could hit 28 without even trying. But...

How did you get +4 from zerk addiction? Lucky roll? Anyway it's not terribly OP since it comes with a con penalty.

Righteous might takes a round to buff. So you get a big drawback for your +4. In fact I'd usually prefer getting to act in the first round instead. Or even in a buff round I'd prefer another buff such as blessing of fervor. Pathfinder is pretty generous with the melee buffs; it's easy to turn them into crazy beasts. Maybe part of the problem is that you're being selfish with your buffs even to the point of being suboptimal.

So all in all it's more like 32 str. To get to 40 comes with fair drawbacks.

So it's a little strong, but probably not too much unless your party doesn't optimize that well.

Likewise I don't know the details of brutal strike so I can't comment much there. How is it activated (what type of action and/or other cost), how many levels/feats did you have to give up to get it, etc, etc.

[CGNefarious]

Generally Brutal Strikes is activated when you crit, and lasts for Wis mod rounds. There are other ways to activate it, but it requires expenditure of resources.

[Azoth]

The +4 was a lucky roll when my character became addicted to Zerk. I can also cure the Con damage from a dose easily enough.

My current weapon is +1 Furious Vicious large Dwarven War Axe.

I activate Brutal Strikes with a swift action for 1 Ki when I need it.

As for DSP material, it is openly allowed at our table and several people use it regularly. Its use is not something truly outrageous. As an aside to that, my build as a whole is ruffling feathers, because it has the ability to get 9th level spells and 9th level martial manuevers by level 20. It costs me exactly 3 caster levels to do it, but it works.

For the person wondering how it came about that they realized my character's Herculean strength, it was a showdown with the BBEG. We backed him into a corner before combat started, and he snagged our paycheck as a hostage. Usual demand of "Let me escape and she lives. Attack me and she dies." So we all sense motive and believe it to be the truth. Sure enough right before fleeing he kills her. This saddens some of the party, mostly at the idea of paying for a resurection to get our full pay. My character flies off the rails and full buffs up while chasing the guy. They follow suit a round later (checked to make sure she was actuallu dead) and quickly realize that what they have been traveling with.

At this point I was in Primal Warrior Stance so each swing was for 4d8+2d6+31(22 2handing, 6 power attack 3 weapon enhancement) (avg 9+7+31=47 per hit). I hit him with Golden Swipe so that added 6d6(+21avg damage) (grand total Max:111 avg:68 Min:43) and launched him 10ft behind me towards the rest of the party. My actual damage was 100 even. They flipped out right after damage calculation .

[Florian]

So, actually nothing a decent Magus build with some added DSP stuff could´t beat without breaking its stride even the least bit.

[T.G. Oskar]

Brutal Strikes are from the Brutal Slayer stalker archetype from PoW:Expanded, which activate on either a crit, or can be popped as a swift action with the proper Stalker Art.

Ah-ha! Jackpot!

I guess that's the reason why everyone's so angry at you. You're using 3rd-party content to further boost your Strength, which is pegging you as a munchkin as you're building a character for the sole purpose of boosting your Strength. This might not be the case, but the levels of Stalker might be what's ticking them off. Well, that and the Zerk drug, which because of the addiction, grants an easy boost to Strength, with little penalties afterwards.

So - Righteous Might is a 5th level Cleric spell, and you claim you're level 10, so that means you have 1 level of Stalker, with the Brutal Slayer archetype to replace your Deadly Strike with a boost to your Strength with a critical hit, and most likely you have a way to land those crits more reliably (Large falchion?) You also have X number of maneuvers, as I don't have the archetype accessible to compare what it gains and what it loses, and you still lose BAB (4 points, and you most likely got your first BAB by 3rd level if you took your 1st level as a Stalker). You don't have much of a loss to caster level or cleric level for Rage subdomain powers, and you're primarily a Cleric with a handful of maneuvers. Which can most likely out-fight the Fighter on its own turf, as you get proficiency with all martial weapons AND the ability to wield larger ones. I can see why your party martial character might be pissed off just by that.

I mean, there's still ways to get your Strength bonus insanely high, but I can figure why that seems like a cheap set-up. One more level of Cleric instead of the Stalker level wouldn't really hurt you, and you'd still have a Strength over 30 with basic set-up, but with more 1st-party content. I'd be more scared if you had access to the Deadly Juggernaut spell...wait, you do. With a decent Strength (like the one you have) and the set-up you most likely have (crit-fishing), you can easily get a +5 luck bonus to everything mostly related to Strength, which is like effectively getting a +10 to Strength for all intents and purposes. You haven't acknowledged Divine Power, which is not a boost to Strength (and can grow to be stronger and more reliable than Deadly Juggernaut, for less rounds) but it effectively works like that, AND gets you a free attack. Righteous Might further boosts your weapon damage output. I'd notice those spells first, as either Deadly Juggernaut or Divine Power on top of your set-up would cause even MORE damage. If they'd notice you have mere access to those spells (well, they know you use Righteous Might, that's for sure), they'd be crying foul because you hit better than them pretty much effortlessly (as much effort as casting a spell). Hence, why I don't think they'd be crying foul to Righteous Might, as it's a spell - you're doing what you're "intended" to, rather than compensate for what you're supposed not to be (a front-liner, which you do admirably).

Another poster mentioned something curious - at least your party hasn't mentioned anything about healing. Maybe they peg you as the healer, and are frustrated that you can achieve such a high Strength score with most resources being your own, whereas other characters must depend on outside resources to achieve that, and that's why they're crying foul? They might not understand why a Cleric (with a dip in Stalker, which screams more Rogue or Ninja than warrior) gets to fight better than the Fighter, which most likely has the focus on Strength and melee weapon damage. Come to think about it - what's the build for your official frontliner, anyways? It's pretty obvious Gentleman's Agreement won't help, and most likely out of jealousy than anything else - a jealousy that's turning negative as the main frontliner is offended at how easy it's for you to achieve such a high Strength with little effort, compared to the hurdles that player has to face in order to get its Strength that high. That's the only thing that gets to me - and if that's so, you might want to help it direct towards some Juggernaut's Pauldrons, a set of Righteous armor (or its evil equivalent?) and potions of Remove Disease while sharing your Zerk. When he also gets a pretty nasty amount of Strength, the party might let you be, just because "balance" has been restored.

[upho]

Eh, not exactly, at level 10 there's only a 3 point BAB difference, which means that a +3/+4 difference in strength modifier catches up-level 11 is a minimally fairer breakpoint as full BAB charas get an extra, if innacurate, bonus attack. And then it's still a very much different story.Sorry if I was unclear: I wasn't talking about builds with different BAB and Str but otherwise identical to the OP's cleric. I was talking about builds which probably don't have a single option in common with his build besides perhaps the feat Power Attack and a Str belt. So while your math would've been undeniably true in the case of otherwise identical builds, BAB and Str of course still represents only a small part of what produces a high actual in-game melee DPR (the area in which a high Str is likely have the most impact and especially, I assume, an area likely to draw attention and "OMG that's so overpowered!" comments from players with less experience/rule-fu).

My point was that in terms of impact on the game, raising the Str of the OP's cleric from, say, 28 to 40 is relatively insignificant in comparison to the impact the same Str increase would've had if he, for example, had played a barbarian natural attack "supercharger" (able to charge 80 - 140+ feet through allies and difficult terrain to pounce an enemy with 5-6 primary and 2 secondary natural attacks, normally in every round of every fight with only a single free action needed for buffing). Not to mention a similarly charge-opted un-monk with Horn of the Criosphinx and perhaps a few PoW options increasing the number of attacks even further.


At that level, a 28 or so Int Wizard is far much more scarier than a 40 Str character regardless of the class.Absolutely true, though with one little caveat IMO: I think the Int 28 wizard has the potential to be far more scary, but that isn't a given in a group such as the OP's, which obviously isn't primarily comprised of mechanics-/tactics-savvy type of players. IME, few classes can be as useless, or flat out dangerous for the home team, as a wizard built and played incompetently. And of course a highly optimized Str-based build also has the potential to be actually OP and disruptive in for example a party of low-op builds, even at this level. Unfortunately, it just seems that in these groups, a high Str (or decent/good melee damage numbers) are much more likely to get undeserved attention and cries of "Cheese!" than even a well-built and well-played god wizard... :smallsigh:


While I believe that everyone needs to make some small compromises now and then so the entire party can have fun, his party sounds WAY too stuck-up and acting in a very immature way. I don't think he should tone it down and let them think that what they're doing is somehow justified because they'll simply keep on doing it. /snip/ His party NEEDS to understand that his character is not OP, they need to understand what is and what isn't OP. if they think that full casters are weaker than Path of War(I can't even comprehend their train of thought at this point) simply because martials dominate the earlier stages of the game with their sheer damage then there's a problem, and that problem will stop people from having fun in the future so it needs to be resolved. That's simply my opinion and how I think he should deal with this based on my own experience with a similar party. Let them think that too much damage is overpowered for too long and they'll start calling monks stronger than wizards. That statement alone is enough to drive a man insane. /snip/ Everyone takes their turn in the spotlight and they need to see that before more people come running to the forums to validate their build as "not too much". And they don't even accept his help because they're too proud? Proud of what? Playing a character whose only optimization is having level 7+ spells?For what it's worth, I mostly agree. Though I think groups/games should decide themselves on what they feel is an appropriate power level, and there isn't anything inherently wrong with either low-op or high-op games (or anything in between) as long as everybody knows what that actually means beforehand and tries to keep that agreement. I also think the OP shouldn't feel like he has to be the one educating his fellow players if he finds it not worth the trouble. Ultimately, I'd say such education to increase the group's "rules-fu balance" would be his DM's responsibility, or at least to help facilitate it if the DM feels inadequate to do the teaching him-/herself. But yes, I believe he's going to need a more "educated" group in order to play any character without having to nerf all numbers which might (arbitrarily) appear as "too high" on the character sheet, even if the actual mechanical impact of those numbers and the character as a whole is perfectly balanced and doesn't even smell of the slightest hint of cheese.


/snip/ you could cast the Rage spell on you for +2 morale which could stack with a +8 Courageous+Furious weapon for +8 Morale for a total of 60 strengthNitpick, but besides what SorenKnight pointed out with regards to Might of the Gods, note that the Courageous weapon ability has been clarified to have a missing line (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gg#v5748eaic9tf0) - it only increases morale bonuses to saves against fear. So it doesn't affect the Str bonus granted by rage in any way.


Seriously, what kind of person whines so much about a NUMBER that isn't even being USED?Uhm... Probably a person who doesn't understand the rules very well? In my view it also appears to typically be a person who somehow believes the PF rules are primarily designed to simulate said person's own understanding/belief of what the "proper" in-game reality is. And if Str 40 "shouldn't be possible/doesn't make sense/is unrealistic" according to said person, then the rules which allow such munchkinery cheese surely must be used in an unintended way! :smallamused:

[ekarney]

It's fine, it's just your party's casters being annoyed at a martial having a bit too much fun.

As a primary caster player myself, I can back this up, level 10 is our time to start shining, so we tend to get a bit jealous when the martials are still doing cool things.

If they bring it up again remind them that can transform into a 10 headed Hydra, or a 26 strength Behir, and if they can't do that, then you're not over-optimized, they're not even trying.

Unless PF doesn't have polymorph.

[Azoth]

For the guy talking about my build it is currently, Cleric6/Brutal Slayer Stalker1/Cleric+3.

Traits:
Magical Knack(Cleric) +2CL for cleric spells
Focused Initiator(Stalker) +2IL for Stalker

Feats are:
1st) Skill Focus (Survival)
3rd) Eldritch Herirage (Orc)
5th) Power Attack
7th) Martial Power*prereq
9th) Discipline Focus (Golden Lion)*prereq

He has the Martial Traditional to gain Golden Lion as a Discipline. His Stalker Art is the swift action use of Ki to trigger Brutal Strikes.

The prerequisites are for Battle Templar. Planning on using it for the last 10 levels of the build. It gets 9th level spells at level 19 and picks up 1 9th level manuever at level 20.

I plan on snagging Improved and Greater Eldritch Heritage for Orc. This will net +6 Inherent strength (1 higher than the most expensive tome). It will also net me Power of Giants, growing to large with +6 size to Strength, +4 Size to Con, and +4NA for 19min/day use able in 1min increments.

The Orc bloodline is because Clerics have no real high end spells to get larger/get big size bonuses to Strength.

To the guy claiming I crit fish...hard to do so when your weapon of choice is a X3 multiplier.

[Tuvarkz]

Ah-ha! Jackpot!

I guess that's the reason why everyone's so angry at you. You're using 3rd-party content to further boost your Strength, which is pegging you as a munchkin as you're building a character for the sole purpose of boosting your Strength. This might not be the case, but the levels of Stalker might be what's ticking them off. Well, that and the Zerk drug, which because of the addiction, grants an easy boost to Strength, with little penalties afterwards.

So - Righteous Might is a 5th level Cleric spell, and you claim you're level 10, so that means you have 1 level of Stalker, with the Brutal Slayer archetype to replace your Deadly Strike with a boost to your Strength with a critical hit, and most likely you have a way to land those crits more reliably (Large falchion?) You also have X number of maneuvers, as I don't have the archetype accessible to compare what it gains and what it loses, and you still lose BAB (4 points, and you most likely got your first BAB by 3rd level if you took your 1st level as a Stalker). You don't have much of a loss to caster level or cleric level for Rage subdomain powers, and you're primarily a Cleric with a handful of maneuvers. Which can most likely out-fight the Fighter on its own turf, as you get proficiency with all martial weapons AND the ability to wield larger ones. I can see why your party martial character might be pissed off just by that.

I mean, there's still ways to get your Strength bonus insanely high, but I can figure why that seems like a cheap set-up. One more level of Cleric instead of the Stalker level wouldn't really hurt you, and you'd still have a Strength over 30 with basic set-up, but with more 1st-party content. I'd be more scared if you had access to the Deadly Juggernaut spell...wait, you do. With a decent Strength (like the one you have) and the set-up you most likely have (crit-fishing), you can easily get a +5 luck bonus to everything mostly related to Strength, which is like effectively getting a +10 to Strength for all intents and purposes. You haven't acknowledged Divine Power, which is not a boost to Strength (and can grow to be stronger and more reliable than Deadly Juggernaut, for less rounds) but it effectively works like that, AND gets you a free attack. Righteous Might further boosts your weapon damage output. I'd notice those spells first, as either Deadly Juggernaut or Divine Power on top of your set-up would cause even MORE damage. If they'd notice you have mere access to those spells (well, they know you use Righteous Might, that's for sure), they'd be crying foul because you hit better than them pretty much effortlessly (as much effort as casting a spell). Hence, why I don't think they'd be crying foul to Righteous Might, as it's a spell - you're doing what you're "intended" to, rather than compensate for what you're supposed not to be (a front-liner, which you do admirably).

Another poster mentioned something curious - at least your party hasn't mentioned anything about healing. Maybe they peg you as the healer, and are frustrated that you can achieve such a high Strength score with most resources being your own, whereas other characters must depend on outside resources to achieve that, and that's why they're crying foul? They might not understand why a Cleric (with a dip in Stalker, which screams more Rogue or Ninja than warrior) gets to fight better than the Fighter, which most likely has the focus on Strength and melee weapon damage. Come to think about it - what's the build for your official frontliner, anyways? It's pretty obvious Gentleman's Agreement won't help, and most likely out of jealousy than anything else - a jealousy that's turning negative as the main frontliner is offended at how easy it's for you to achieve such a high Strength with little effort, compared to the hurdles that player has to face in order to get its Strength that high. That's the only thing that gets to me - and if that's so, you might want to help it direct towards some Juggernaut's Pauldrons, a set of Righteous armor (or its evil equivalent?) and potions of Remove Disease while sharing your Zerk. When he also gets a pretty nasty amount of Strength, the party might let you be, just because "balance" has been restored.

Actually, I believe he's mentioned he's the party ONLY frontliner. And then, DSP published content has been insofar reliably balanced (Psychic Reformation power being the only exception).

[Mystral]

I don't think it's broken in itself. You basically can end and dominate one encounter per day, as long as it is solveable by hitting things really hard (or similiar actions).

Wizards can do this far more often.

But if the other players hate it, it doesn't matter that much if you can't convince them otherwise, and you should propably tone it down. Having fun is more important than a high strength score.

[Florian]

For the guy talking about my build it is currently, Cleric6/Brutal Slayer Stalker1/Cleric+3.

As usual, the Orc bloodline is the overpowered component here.
The build itself is rather mediocre and seems to lack any real utility or actually overpowering tactics.

[Azoth]

As usual, the Orc bloodline is the overpowered component here.
The build itself is rather mediocre and seems to lack any real utility or actually overpowering tactics.

You do realize I am still a T1 caster at heart correct. A battle Cleric is still a Cleric, and just as capable of unleashing the same levels of power as any other Cleric. It may seem mediocre compared to a Full Cleric with Madness and Trickery domains, but you would be hard pressed to find a stronger Divine Gish build. The only downside is that you can't get BAB 16 and dual 9ths on a divine chassis currently.

The Orc bloodline has not even become a factor yet. The only thing I have from it right now is Darkvision. Woo game breaker there.

As I noted before, it will give me the equivalent of slightly better Strength tome for the cost of 3 feats. Then finally an ability about on par with Form of the Giant II after spending 4 feats on it. Woo such an overpowered bloodline!

[Second Arrow]

You do realize I am still a T1 caster at heart correct. A battle Cleric is still a Cleric, and just as capable of unleashing the same levels of power as any other Cleric. It may seem mediocre compared to a Full Cleric with Madness and Trickery domains, but you would be hard pressed to find a stronger Divine Gish build. The only downside is that you can't get BAB 16 and dual 9ths on a divine chassis currently.

The Orc bloodline has not even become a factor yet. The only thing I have from it right now is Darkvision. Woo game breaker there.

As I noted before, it will give me the equivalent of slightly better Strength tome for the cost of 3 feats. Then finally an ability about on par with Form of the Giant II after spending 4 feats on it. Woo such an overpowered bloodline!

Isn't the darkvision part of the bloodline arcana? Iirc, the Eldritch Heritage feat chain only grants you some of the level-dependent powers, so unless you're houseruling something, you might find your ability to see in the dark a bit.. lacking.

That said, is your GM allowing drawbacks in exchange for more traits? Community-Minded (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Community-Minded) seems awfully nice, working in tandem with Eldritch Heritage (Orc), and Wrecking Wrath (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wrecking%20Wrath), while not optimal, is a lot of fun with a high strength score.


And, of course, don't forget that you don't need to buy your own drugs, when you can easily magic them yourself (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Create%20Drug).

[Florian]

You do realize I am still a T1 caster at heart correct. A battle Cleric is still a Cleric, and just as capable of unleashing the same levels of power as any other Cleric. It may seem mediocre compared to a Full Cleric with Madness and Trickery domains, but you would be hard pressed to find a stronger Divine Gish build. The only downside is that you can't get BAB 16 and dual 9ths on a divine chassis currently.

The Orc bloodline has not even become a factor yet. The only thing I have from it right now is Darkvision. Woo game breaker there.

As I noted before, it will give me the equivalent of slightly better Strength tome for the cost of 3 feats. Then finally an ability about on par with Form of the Giant II after spending 4 feats on it. Woo such an overpowered bloodline!

I´m just being pragmatic about it.
The Eldritch Heritage chain does not confer the basic Bloodline Power, so no Darkvision and bonus to damage spells and going all the way has a steep CHA requirement that actually doesn´t seem to be of use to your character, as he lacks the feats to build around Channel Energy (for ex. Channel Smite) at that point.

It´s simply possible to pull off the whole build a bit slicker with some added Oomph, that´s it.

[Second Arrow]

I´m just being pragmatic about it.
The Eldritch Heritage chain does not confer the basic Bloodline Power, so no Darkvision and bonus to damage spells and going all the way has a steep CHA requirement that actually doesn´t seem to be of use to your character, as he lacks the feats to build around Channel Energy (for ex. Channel Smite) at that point.

It´s simply possible to pull off the whole build a bit slicker with some added Oomph, that´s it.

Adding to this, though, if your GM is allowing you to use 3rd-party material, would Unchained and Variant Multi-Classing be an alternative? It is not always the greatest choice, but considering how it trades out 5 feats for 4 of the feats you were already going to use, plus it nets you a bonus feat at level 11, you're kind of even in that sense. In addition, it has some slight benefits, including;


1) It gives you an effective Sorc level of your Character level, instead of Character level -2.
2) It doesn't require a smidgen of Charisma, allowing you to focus your point buy / stats elsewhere,
and of course
3) Apparently you can retrain into it. So, there's that.

Maybe worth considering.

[Azoth]

The charisma requirements aren't too terrible. Buy a base 11 and just upgrade your headband to Wis/Cha and you are good. I rolled well and managed to toss a 13 in it, so I got a bit lucky there.

I will admit I could have made better use of the feats available than Eldritch Heritage, but is is fun nonetheless to just say screw it and Hulk out on something every now and again. I may not be able to reach the 62 strength a Transmuter abusing Blood Money does to get free Wishes/Resurrections, but I can get close.

End game at level 20 is:
18 base
+2 Racial
+4 profane
+4 morale
+4Alchemical
+5 level up
+6Inherent
+6 Enhancement
+6 Size
Total:55 STR (+22 To Hit, +33 damage)

Not too shabby if I do say so.

[Mystral]

The charisma requirements aren't too terrible. Buy a base 11 and just upgrade your headband to Wis/Cha and you are good. I rolled well and managed to toss a 13 in it, so I got a bit lucky there.

I will admit I could have made better use of the feats available than Eldritch Heritage, but is is fun nonetheless to just say screw it and Hulk out on something every now and again. I may not be able to reach the 62 strength a Transmuter abusing Blood Money does to get free Wishes/Resurrections, but I can get close.

End game at level 20 is:
18 base
+2 Racial
+4 profane
+4 morale
+4Alchemical
+5 level up
+6Inherent
+6 Enhancement
+6 Size
Total:55 STR (+22 To Hit, +33 damage)

Not too shabby if I do say so.

Considering that at this level, Casters are creating their own universes, I can't see why being really, really strong should be overpowered. If anything, it can be irrelevant.

[Florian]

If anything, it can be irrelevant.

Exactly my thoughts.

[Yogibear41]

I wouldn't let other players dictate what you can and can't do with your character. Depending on your relationship with said players out of game you could handle it in several different ways. As long as the conflict doesn't spill over into the game I think you will be fine. If it does spill over into the game, I would say take action appropriate to the alignment and personality of your character. That is, if your character is evil bash their skulls in. If your good, consider the dark side, we have cookies.

[Barbarian Horde]

The charisma requirements aren't too terrible. Buy a base 11 and just upgrade your headband to Wis/Cha and you are good. I rolled well and managed to toss a 13 in it, so I got a bit lucky there.

I will admit I could have made better use of the feats available than Eldritch Heritage, but is is fun nonetheless to just say screw it and Hulk out on something every now and again. I may not be able to reach the 62 strength a Transmuter abusing Blood Money does to get free Wishes/Resurrections, but I can get close.

End game at level 20 is:
18 base
+2 Racial
+4 profane
+4 morale
+4Alchemical
+5 level up
+6Inherent
+6 Enhancement
+6 Size
Total:55 STR (+22 To Hit, +33 damage)

Not too shabby if I do say so.

I still don't think it's enough. I'm gonna need more cowbell. Problem is wizard is still gonna whoop dat ass. Even if he does have the more physical strength then Pelor. I'm just posting his stats from deities and demigods book here "Abilities: Str 34, Dex 24, Con 28, Int 32, Wis 40, Cha 29." This one here is stat block from a titan "Abilities: Str 43, Dex 12, Con 39, Int 21, Wis 28, Cha 24" So clearly when comparing him to the other two... I just feel like he needs more strength. No questions about it! I recommend everyones favorite stength cheese the "War Hulk" & "Half Minotaur"
---
You need to be atlas from greek lore...

[upho]

For the guy talking about my build it is currently, Cleric6/Brutal Slayer Stalker1/Cleric+3. /snip/OK, so let me see if I got this right:

You're playing a divine gish which, besides some moderately increased plain melee DPR numbers (often requiring prep actions), doesn't actually gain much worth mentioning from his serious Str boost investments.
You're trading actually mechanically powerful options for a relatively useless and needlessly high Str. I assume you see this basically as trading mechanical power for flavor and what you think is fun, a deal which you're fine with.
Being the party's only frontliner and melee combatant, if your goal actually was to gleefully waltz all over your fellow party members' sore toes, your investments into Str would be seriously counter-productive, only bringing you further away from their sensitive ranged/caster footsies. Your fellow players doesn't seem to get this. Or the concept of combat roles in general, for that matter.
One of the reasons you've gone bananas with Str is to be able to step up to the frontline and protect your fellow party members by shoving some melee pain down the throat of the baddies.
The other players are complaining that your rather (mechanically) poor decisions to (over-)invest in Str boosts makes you OP. :smallconfused:
The other players are seemingly stuck staring myopically at your Str score, judging from what you've said so far pretty much oblivious to the combo which I think runs a serious risk of actually making your build an OP spotlight hog in this group (full caster + full initiator + great "buff'n'bash" gish action economy + decently synergizing primary stats.)
The other players are seemingly also pretty much oblivious to the fact that besides your muscle fetish and perhaps your stalker dip, your build outline practically screams buffer/protector. I mean, your combat role could probably be best described as the party's "big loving mummy" who comforts and puts band-aids on the scratched knees of the shy little squishies hiding behind her skirts, who will gladly put her own life on the line to keep them safe, and who doesn't hesitate to give any big old meanie who dares bully her little ones such a "talking to" the meanie will run away crying for his/her/its mommy! :smalltongue: Rather the opposite of the typical "obvious" egocentric powertrip build, in my eyes.

Did I totally miss something vital here, or is this a decent summary of the situation in your opinion?

If you think I got the gist of it, I might have a few ideas on how to solve this, and help educate the other players at the same time, but I'd like to know a bit more about their builds first.


Sidenote: Out of curiosity, do you think any of the other players or the DM understand/know that the Battle Templar is basically the famous RKV chassis, revived with martial 'roids and jacked up on action economy speed? Do you think any of them understand the vast amount of powerful options and combos available to a build which is both a full initiator and a full caster, especially one which can squeeze both a martial strike and a spell into a move+standard? Does any of them realize that the great versatility alone can make your build very powerful, even when not taking the many "I win"-buttons at your disposal into consideration, and completely regardless of whatever Str-boosts you decide to "waste" feats slots on?

(I don't think the BT is necessarily OP at all and really love how it enables so many interesting concepts on the crusader/holy knight/battle cleric/war priest/paladin-ish theme. But since it allows for high Tier 1 builds (above straight cleric builds during most levels), I believe it should be handled with care, and unless you know how to play down its strengths and are prepared and able to nerf your build, I sure wouldn't recommend it for a relatively low-op game in which the other players are much less experienced/talented optimizers.)



As usual, the Orc bloodline is the overpowered component here.
The build itself is rather mediocre and seems to lack any real utility or actually overpowering tactics.Huh...? I don't get it, how is the orc bloodline OP on a cleric/stalker/BT? :smallconfused:

To me it seems like an overly expensive and sub-par route to increase melee combat prowess for such a build (or basically any build besides the few able to fully capitalize on the high Str, which have good Cha-synergies, and can spare the many required feats, such as perhaps a few niche bloodrager, fighter or oracle builds). IOW: UP rather than OP.

[Barstro]

I do see two potential problems with all of this;

1)he character right now is potentially overpowered in one small factor that the other players cannot seem to look past. This leads to them being upset and probably finding ways to increase their damage potential. The problem is that without a DM who likes to plan, all fights can be over in two rounds with that sort of character creating.

2) Similar to above, but the original character's one trick will not be overpowered for very long. When that trick runs out, he has nowhere else to go and remains ineffective. From my reading, it appears that the original poster specifically does not suffer from that, but other players in the future can run up against this.

Again, I see nothing wrong that the original poster did. The other players are very myopic in all of this.

[Barbarian Horde]

I do see two potential problems with all of this;

1)he character right now is potentially overpowered in one small factor that the other players cannot seem to look past. This leads to them being upset and probably finding ways to increase their damage potential. The problem is that without a DM who likes to plan, all fights can be over in two rounds with that sort of character creating.

2) Similar to above, but the original character's one trick will not be overpowered for very long. When that trick runs out, he has nowhere else to go and remains ineffective. From my reading, it appears that the original poster specifically does not suffer from that, but other players in the future can run up against this.

Again, I see nothing wrong that the original poster did. The other players are very myopic in all of this.

Honestly I think as long as players including the kind sir who posted this topic can keep their AC the same as the party's average then I don't think super str isn a big deal

[Azoth]

Upho, good observation. The build is actually, based loosely on Escanor the Lion's Sin of Pride. The character is from a manga/anime named Nanatsu no Taizai, or in English The Seven Deadly Sins.

He is quite quiet and a bit of wimp most of the time. In the series he is noted for his immense amount of magic power that is tied to the Sun. Its cycle throughout the day also affects his raw physical might. Since it is impossible to have a character's Strength fluctuate over a 24hr period, I chose to build ways to explosively increase his strength when needed.

His main disciplines are Golden Lion (teamwork galore), Veiled Moon (easiest way to move into position quickly), and a smattering of Primal Fury to give a bit of damage.

The DM is aware of how devastating the build could have been. He has openly thanked me for focusing on something fun instead of overly powerful. I don't think he can completely understand it, until he has to try and control it. To his credit, he did point out that he knows I am capable of building much stronger characters.

[ericgrau]

Since your party doesn't optimize as carefully as you, ditching the 3rd party material that hardly anyone can even find, i.e. brutal strike, could be the fair thing to do. Zerk addiction is a little obscure too, though I'm not sure about that one because of the con loss.

Beyond that I think things should be fine. +2 or +4 to rolls makes a bigger difference than you might think.

[Azoth]

Actually, between the group we own all current releases of DSP material. When we get together, anyone can freely use the materials someone else owns. It isn't obscure for us at all. We also keep up with their play test materials. For us DSP is more first party than Paizo most days.

[Florian]

@Azoth:

Maybe you understood something wrong here in this discussion, as well as with your fellow players. Let me try to explain my thoughts on that:

First off, a high-STR build on a primary caster with no real way to capitalize on it, like really enhancing the economy of actions is nothing gamebreakinig.
I´d understand some outcries if you went Combat Reflex/Reach Weapon, Sacred Summons and applied the Exalted PrC on the Templar PrC, potentially gaining real Rage and Smite due to Domain (Example: Stalker 1/Cleric 4/Divine Scion 4/Templar 1/Exalted 10). That would push some of the limits.

The high STR score is nothing to sneeze at, but seriously nothing to write home about either. A lot of decent builds can be moved in this direction with very little opportunity costs besides that.

So either your fellow players have absolutely no grasp on the rules interaction and are cowed by a large number, something that should´t come up when you´re regularly using DSP stuff, or their objection about your character is actually found elsewhere and the high STR is just an excuse to complain.

[killem2]

The first time you get hit with a confusion spell your party is going to cry.

[Florian]

The first time you get hit with a confusion spell your party is going to cry.

Possession is better :D

[Starbuck_II]

The first time you get hit with a confusion spell your party is going to cry.

As a Cleric, his Will saves should be fine. Not like he was a Fighter.

[Florian]

As a Cleric, his Will saves should be fine. Not like he was a Fighter.

Lol? Right now, the basic Fighter might have the best Will save around.
You know, unlike a raging addict.

[zergling.exe]

Lol? Right now, the basic Fighter might have the best Will save around.
You know, unlike a raging addict.

It would be wise to read up on the rules for drugs and addictions (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs)before making such claims. The only addiction that comes with a Will penalty is Major addictions, and that's only a -1 from the Wis penalty. Zerk is a Minor addiction and so does not give a penalty to Will saves, so their save is unmodified by being addicted.

[Florian]

It would be wise to read up on the rules for drugs and addictions (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs)before making such claims. The only addiction that comes with a Will penalty is Major addictions, and that's only a -1 from the Wis penalty. Zerk is a Minor addiction and so does not give a penalty to Will saves, so their save is unmodified by being addicted.

Actually, a case of misremembering. I had Zerk as 1d2 WIS dmg in mind. With a good Fort save, the character should overcome the addiction unless he keeps on using Zerk, thereby having the WIS dmg I misremembered in that case.

[flappeercraft]

Dont make me laugh in my campaign we can buff a 3rd level fighter up to 32 strength and its a level 3 character. Level 10 40 strength is ok

[Lorrdernie]

2) Similar to above, but the original character's one trick will not be overpowered for very long. When that trick runs out, he has nowhere else to go and remains ineffective. From my reading, it appears that the original poster specifically does not suffer from that, but other players in the future can run up against this.

Again, I see nothing wrong that the original poster did. The other players are very myopic in all of this.

His character is going to have level 9 divine spells and level 9 maneuvers I wouldn't exactly call that "ineffective". Something like mid-op seems more accurate.

[Florian]

His character is going to have level 9 divine spells and level 9 maneuvers I wouldn't exactly call that "ineffective". Something like mid-op seems more accurate.

Not really, as there´s nothing in that build that works favorably on the economy of actions to actually make use of it.

It´s a similar situation like the difference between the 3,5 meaning of the term Gish (16 BAB, 9th spell) and the PF meaning (Cast and Fight with one action).

So, compared to the raw power that spells offer, the maneuvers are simply a fall-back option to use when not casting, hereby losing importance.

[Azoth]

Not really, as there´s nothing in that build that works favorably on the economy of actions to actually make use of it.

It´s a similar situation like the difference between the 3,5 meaning of the term Gish (16 BAB, 9th spell) and the PF meaning (Cast and Fight with one action).

So, compared to the raw power that spells offer, the maneuvers are simply a fall-back option to use when not casting, hereby losing importance.

I would like to know when the term Gish changed meaning. Also, this build and the arcane one I have up in another thread both do gain the ability to cast and attack at the same time after a few more levels.

You may consider a Gish as one who attacks and casts simultaneously, but that is far from the standard. As is there are very few options that can do that natively at relatively low levels, and honestly most of them lose out to the standard Gish builds.

I think the problem is that you consider "Gish in a Can" to be the definition of a true "Gish".

[Spore]

I once had an Str 28 Dragon Disciple on 10th level with the base of a crossblooded Orc/Draconic sorcerer throwing around 15d6 + 30 empowered Fireballs. The problem is that I ended fights so quickly that my DM could not for the life of him create engaging fights without either ending after my second turn or outright killing the others.

Then again, talk to your group and the DM about your group. Some pointers:

1) 10th level is the gateway into being stuff of legends (the spell legend lore even mentions that), so if you have legendary strength that is just fitting. Ask your group what they think each other character could be characterized in the legends for.

2) Tell them that you enjoy this character and build. You had a goal when building this character in terms of rules and you enjoy using your strength score. Ask them how they would react if they'd want someone to fiddle about with their characters.

3) Try to mediate between group, yourself and DM. Maybe you can approach each other's viewpoint by finding a decent compromise?

Also as this thread is also about your group, what is the group composed of? What are their character's strengths? Have they optimized towards any goal?

[LeighTheDwarf]

Seconding what's been said before, that it's not really a matter of what is or isn't objectively too much. It's a matter of what makes a fun story for this table. You are having fun, and the DM is having fun, which is good. The thing to do now is to ask the rest of the party what would make the game more fun for them. Maybe the underlying issue is one of different roleplaying styles. For instance, they're really into the acting/story parts of roleplaying and feel that you're prioritizing optimization over storytelling. Or maybe the underlying issue is that the players feel that their characters can't catch up, in which case you or the DM might want to help them optimize and find their niche in the party.

Anyway, I personally see no problem with your character. I'm currently playing in a party which has a level 5 barbarian/1 ranger character who did 86 damage in 1 hit. I get what it's like to play a character who can't catch up to a fellow party member combat-wise, since I'm the one playing the non-combat guy. However, I feel like having a character in the party who can deal huge damage keeps the game fun and exciting.

[Azoth]

@sporeegg

The rest of the party are:

Tiefling Wiz1/Magus9. Dude fires magic bullets at all of his problems.

Human Hawkguard Warder5/Pheonix Champion5. Usually lays down long range suppression fire on enemies.

Elven Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 10. BFC specialist with a side of summoning. Usually has his familiar using wands/scrolls to buff or lay down the occasional Enervation.

Elan Sadist, Life Leech Vitalists 10. Party healer and communication hub.

Human Vigilante 10. Party sneak and face. Not much of one for combat, but great skill monkey and socialite. Usually responsible for getting us jobs, getting us into places, and talking our way out of situations.

[Gildedragon]

Tiefling Wiz1/Magus9. Dude fires magic bullets at all of his problems.

Human Hawkguard Warder5/Pheonix Champion5. Usually lays down long range suppression fire on enemies.

Elven Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 10. BFC specialist with a side of summoning. Usually has his familiar using wands/scrolls to buff or lay down the occasional Enervation.

Elan Sadist, Life Leech Vitalists 10. Party healer and communication hub.

Human Vigilante 10. Party sneak and face. Not much of one for combat, but great skill monkey and socialite. Usually responsible for getting us jobs, getting us into places, and talking our way out of situations.

Kay I think I can see how people are feeling stepped on: you have two and a halfish direct damage dealers (Tiefling, Human, and (to a lesser extent) Elf). You negate the point of the elf's summons (which is his side gig so whatevs), and deffinitively make the Human and Tiefling a bit redundant (if you get to the enemy they are D-E-D... without need for their spells)

How to solve: Hordes. Your power is v. good against a single enemy, but as the number of foes goes up, your party members' abilities (suppressing fire, the ability to target multiple foes, and additional BSF) become more relevant.

[Hida Reju]

Is 40 a high number? yes.

Did you expend a significant amount of your resources to get this high strength? I don't think so from what I read its basically 1 spell, some drugs, then Rage rounds the rest comes from your build.

I think really what is going on is that they cant find a monster in the MM under a CR 18 with a stat that high.

For fun I built a Skald and was giving everyone around me +4 Strength, +4 Dex, +3 Natural Armor, and could buff things even more. I think I was packing almost an equivalent of 30STR worth of bonuses with like 2 spells and my Rage with the Trait that boosts Morale bonuses and Divine Favor. Then the Summons the Wizard threw around started getting scary. But it still took more time than your set up.

The point is anyone can munchkin a stat the real question is does it throw the game balance off when you do?

But talk with your party and come to an agreement that you can live with is the best advice I can give.

[ericgrau]

Actually, between the group we own all current releases of DSP material. When we get together, anyone can freely use the materials someone else owns. It isn't obscure for us at all. We also keep up with their play test materials. For us DSP is more first party than Paizo most days.

Ok then find whatever matches your group best. It also matters whether or not they use that material as well as you do. Maybe they don't put them time in to dig for bonuses from as many sources (or maybe they do?)

Or if your group optimizes at a similar level to you in other ways, I wouldn't worry about it. I mean in general the question of "is XYZ too much?" has the answer "depends who you are playing with". Especially when we're still in the same ballpark as numbers anyone can achieve. Now if you said 242 strength we might all say "I don't see how that campaign will last long even if your allies are doing the same".