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tombowings
2016-05-08, 08:30 AM
I'm in the middle of designing a new game. I have a list of specific skills based on different character archetypes from fantasy literature and myth. So far, my list of skills are:

Alchemist
Assassin
Astrologer
Beast Master
Courtier
Healer
Marshal (for mass combat warleader types)
Mechanist
Ranger
Seafarer
Thief

I'm now looking for a couple more skills to include. Anyone have any ideas?

Characters are defined by several things. Those are:

* Attributes (strength, dexterity, intelligence, willpower, and perception)
* Weapons skills
* Adventuring skills (as shown above)
* College of Magic (College of Fire Magics, College of Illusions; character may belong to one and only one college)


A Druid, for example, would be considered an Adept from the College of Earth Magics with the ranger and quartrstaff (or some other weapon) skills.

A dedicated Warrior, for example, would probably have several weapon skills (broad sword, shield, and crossbow, for example) and possible some training in the marshal, ranger, or courtier skills.

Monk is a skill I've been contemplating, possible giving special martial arts maneuvers, increased speed, or the ability to run on water. I'm not quite sure yet.


As for the setting, I'm bouncing back between a few ideas. If I had to decided right now, a brief outline of the southeastern portion of the continent would go something like this:

* World is created. Elves, dwarves, giants, etc. fool around, skirmish a little, but everything's relatively dandy.
* A race of immortal Mages arrives (somehow) - takes over.
* Men arrive - use technology to destroy the Magi.
* War begins over whether the world should advance by magic or technology (for political reasons)
* Both sides basically take each other out.
* 1,000 years later, adventuring happens.

Cluedrew
2016-05-08, 08:43 AM
Well I have lots of ideas (of the top of my head Soldier/Warrior, Monk & Druid) but without more information on the setting (or settings) the game is for I can't do much more than list them off. What did you have in mind?

tombowings
2016-05-08, 09:02 AM
OK. I'll explain a little more about the system in general terms. Characters are defined by several things. Those are

* Attributes (strength, dexterity, intelligence, willpower, and perception)
* Weapons skills
* Adventuring skills (as shown above)
* College of Magic (College of Fire Magics, College of Illusions; character may belong to one and only one college)



A Druid, for example, would be considered an Adept from the College of Earth Magics with the ranger and quartrstaff (or some other weapon) skills.

A dedicated Warrior, for example, would probably have several weapon skills (broad sword, shield, and crossbow, for example) and possible some training in the marshal, ranger, or courtier skills.

Monk is a skill I've been contemplating, possible giving special martial arts maneuvers, increased speed, or the ability to run on water. I'm not quite sure yet.

Anonymouswizard
2016-05-08, 09:09 AM
Yeah, we really need more information on the system/setting. Looking at the list, I see the following missing:
-Shepherd/farm boy
-Priest/Monk (western scholar-monk)
-Sage (student of history etc.)

Of those the latter two are definitely worth considering, although they could just be one skill (which I'd call either Sage or Monk).

What are skills used for? That might help narrow down what suggestions we give.

EDIT: voicing my annoyance at how 'monk' is always used to mean 'martial artist' and not 'monk'. I mean, most Buddhist or Taoist monks did not know kung Fu in the time period we're talking about.

tombowings
2016-05-08, 09:21 AM
Ok. So some sort of Scholar skill could be helpful, great!

As for the setting, I'm bouncing back between a few ideas. If I had to decided right now, a brief outline of the southeastern portion of the continent would go something like this:

* World is created. Elves, dwarves, giants, etc. fool around, skirmish a little, but everything's relatively dandy.
* A race of immortal Mages arrives (somehow) - takes over.
* Men arrive - use technology to destroy the Magi.
* War begins over whether the world should advance by magic or technology (two opposing forces; mana, the stuff that magic is made from, cannot survive alongside civilization and technology)
* Both sides basically take each other out.
* 1,000 years later, adventuring happens.

Edward1998
2016-05-08, 09:51 AM
Thats a great news. I was waiting for this from long long time. I love this game so much!

Anonymouswizard
2016-05-08, 10:44 AM
* War begins over whether the world should advance by magic or technology (two opposing forces; mana, the stuff that magic is made from, cannot survive alongside civilization and technology)

Okay, pet peeve here, I hate this idea, it rarely ever makes sense. First off, why does technology destroy mana? I want a reason, as if you have to study magic then mages are likely going to either a) be the ones designing all this tech, or b) interested in getting rid of this side effect.

I'd say more but my spacebar is playing up.

goto124
2016-05-08, 10:51 AM
Okay, pet peeve here, I hate this idea, it rarely ever makes sense. First off, why does technology destroy mana? I want a reason, as if you have to study magic then mages are likely going to either a) be the ones designing all this tech, or b) interested in getting rid of this side effect.

Typically in such stories, they're two sides: the 'tech' side that uses science like we do IRL, and the 'magic' side.

Whenever I see "tech destroys magic", I suspend disbelief having realized that the author just wants tech and magic to be incompatible for the sake of the story. In the Old Kingdom series (the one with Sabriel and Lirael), past a certain point of complexity technology is incompatible with magic, and this causes the world to be split into "magic medieval world" and "techy modern world". Exactly why technology is incompatible with magic is less important than its effects on the plot, such as children from the magic world being sent to the modern world for schooling first.

The Old Kingdom is full of well-loved fantasy tropes. Go check it out when your spacebar's fixed.

EDIT:

I don't think you can suspend disbelief on such a vital and tactically advantageous aspect of the setting. It's hard to have a character in the right mindset to truly immerse yourself if you cannot truly understand it or have a way for the character to understand it. Furthermore, players are going to start chucking tech at mages or mages at tech to destroy things. Figure out a reason why no one does this.

Oh, right. Players in an RPG, not characters in a novel.


I'd say more but my spacebar is playing up.

Please accept this joke (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c1/9f/55/c19f5559d705c904ee0eda7a55005f45.jpg).

Honest Tiefling
2016-05-08, 11:02 AM
Okay, pet peeve here, I hate this idea, it rarely ever makes sense. First off, why does technology destroy mana? I want a reason, as if you have to study magic then mages are likely going to either a) be the ones designing all this tech, or b) interested in getting rid of this side effect.

I'd say more but my spacebar is playing up.

I think I would have to agree with this. Furthermore, you have an alchemist. Alchemy could be both magical and non-magical. In fact unless you want someone cracking open a chemistry book or fudging things, they have to be both. Scholars are more likely to study and advance both. Study of earth magic, for instance, could reveal what an 'element' is magically as someone tries to cast spells on sulfur for instance. Magic could do things like create superior lenses which could also help science. Why one would and could be advanced would need some work.

And how does magic destroy civilization and technology? Do household fires no longer work around it? Do dogs and other domesticated creatures revert back to their wild forms? Does it eat laws? Do people just stop speaking language at all? Do houses fall apart as the nails come undone?

I don't think you can suspend disbelief on such a vital and tactically advantageous aspect of the setting. It's hard to have a character in the right mindset to truly immerse yourself if you cannot truly understand it or have a way for the character to understand it. Furthermore, players are going to start chucking tech at mages or mages at tech to destroy things. Figure out a reason why no one does this.

I think a better aspect would be that there's group A and group B. Group A has tons of magic, but little technology due to focusing on the magical side of things. Group B has little magic, perhaps due to racial abilities, so they have compensated with technology. The two CAN help each other, but political, racial, and cultural ties makes it difficult. One of the two groups is in charge. To mix things up, I'd put the technocrats in charge and have mages be hunted down or heavily restricted rather then vice versa. The technocrats view magic as an unstable force used by rebels and demon-worshipers who are anarchists seeking power at the cost of stability. The mages might not even have a choice in the matter, but many might side with the populace against the nobles for good or for ill. You have the conflict, but you don't need to explain mana nor will you have fighters smooshing their crossbows in the face of a mage to disable them.

You could even play with the idea that people THINK this happens, but it doesn't because one side wanted to have a reason to oppress those who had a type of power they couldn't access or control. And then the players find out that it's all just a lie.

tombowings
2016-05-08, 11:10 AM
OK. I'm sold. The idea of technology and being cosmically incomparable is a bad idea. Thanks.

Anonymouswizard
2016-05-08, 11:53 AM
Typically in such stories, they're two sides: the 'tech' side that uses science like we do IRL, and the 'magic' side.

Whenever I see "tech destroys magic", I suspend disbelief having realized that the author just wants tech and magic to be incompatible for the sake of the story. In the Old Kingdom series (the one with Sabriel and Lirael), past a certain point of complexity technology is incompatible with magic, and this causes the world to be split into "magic medieval world" and "techy modern world". Exactly why technology is incompatible with magic is less important than its effects on the plot, such as children from the magic world being sent to the modern world for schooling first.

The Old Kingdom is full of well-loved fantasy tropes. Go check it out when your spacebar's fixed.

This the Garth Nix books? I love those, but it was also a very different situation to 'magic destroys technology', in the two places were basically different worlds with different laws, with the exception of a relatively small area of cross contamination where magic/tech worked but was weaker. It feels less like 'magic and technology are opposed' and more like 'there's two areas where things just work differently'. There's essentially no danger of the technological world demagicing the magical world or the magical world deteching the modern world because the world works differently, deal with it.


To mix things up, I'd put the technocrats in charge and have mages be hunted down or heavily restricted rather then vice versa. The technocrats view magic as an unstable force used by rebels and demon-worshipers who are anarchists seeking power at the cost of stability.

Say, I remember something about an ascension. I'll go and check with my etherite friend.

JoeJ
2016-05-08, 12:05 PM
Okay, pet peeve here, I hate this idea, it rarely ever makes sense. First off, why does technology destroy mana? I want a reason, as if you have to study magic then mages are likely going to either a) be the ones designing all this tech, or b) interested in getting rid of this side effect.

I'd say more but my spacebar is playing up.

In Birthright, magic is the power of nature. It's not destroyed by tech per se, but by civilization. Alternatively, in Gaiman's Books of Magic, it's science that is can't mix with magic because they represent two fundamentally incompatible ways of encountering the universe. The Magic sourcebook for the DC Heroes game expands on this a bit, explaining that magic is about forcing the universe to do something that the magician knows is impossible.

tombowings
2016-05-08, 01:56 PM
OK, everyone, let's try to stay on topic, please. If you would like, please start a new thread to continued the Magic vs. Technology debate.

So, in addition to the following skills, what more could I add? Crazy off the wall ideas are perfectly welcome. So far we have:

Alchemist
Assassin
Astrologer
Beast Master
Courtier
Healer
Marshal
Martial Artist
Mechanist
Ranger
Scholar
Seafarer
Thief

Cluedrew
2016-05-08, 02:01 PM
Alchemy could be both magical and non-magical. In fact unless you want someone cracking open a chemistry book or fudging things, they have to be both.


OK. I'm sold. The idea of technology and being cosmically incomparable is a bad idea. Thanks.Not entirely, you just have to define what the two are and why they are apposed to each other. And to do that you have to go outside the standard definitions for technology & magic and give them (or one of them) a different meaning in your setting. But I'm not sure if that is what you want.

Oh, and then maybe you should add scientist (or mechanist or something) to your list of archetypes depending on the final tech level.

Mastikator
2016-05-08, 09:28 PM
OK, everyone, let's try to stay on topic, please. If you would like, please start a new thread to continued the Magic vs. Technology debate.

So, in addition to the following skills, what more could I add? Crazy off the wall ideas are perfectly welcome. So far we have:

Alchemist
Assassin
Astrologer
Beast Master
Courtier
Healer
Marshal
Martial Artist
Mechanist
Ranger
Scholar
Seafarer
Thief
When you say archetypes it makes me think of things like "Charming scoundrel", "wise sage" and "white knight", not professions.
An assassin could fit many archetypes, a mafia employed hitman (Godfather style) would be an assassin, so would a state employed secret agent (James bond style). Two assassins of different archetypes.

I don't really have any archetypes or professions to contribute, but I would strongly advice you to have a more easily understood nomenclature. For instance, I'm genuinely wondering if "Healer" is a skill or a collection of skills or a character who happens to have a collection of skills, it sounds like it should be the last option but the way you present it it's not obvious that it is.

tombowings
2016-05-09, 01:43 AM
When you say archetypes it makes me think of things like "Charming scoundrel", "wise sage" and "white knight", not professions.
An assassin could fit many archetypes, a mafia employed hitman (Godfather style) would be an assassin, so would a state employed secret agent (James bond style). Two assassins of different archetypes.

I don't really have any archetypes or professions to contribute, but I would strongly advice you to have a more easily understood nomenclature. For instance, I'm genuinely wondering if "Healer" is a skill or a collection of skills or a character who happens to have a collection of skills, it sounds like it should be the last option but the way you present it it's not obvious that it is.

OK. So I have some clarification to do in terms of terminology! Thanks for letting me know.

To answer your question, though, each "skill" (for lack of a better word) represents a whole field of expertise. The Astrologer skill, for example, has three uses: "read the night sky," "alter a prediction," and "ask a specific question." Your "Base Chance" for the Astrologer skill is ([2 x Perception] + [10 per Rank])%. Whenever you "read the night sky," "alter a prediction," and "ask a specific question," that is the number you must roll equal to or below in order to succeed.

So I guess, "skills" are a collection of related skills or a collection of related skills that allows a character to perform a specific role in the party.

Several skills together, make the character. A tradition D&D paladin is some combination of the courtier, healer, sword, and shield skills. James Body would be some combination of the assassin, courtier, and weapon skills. A pirate captain would have some combination of the seafarer, marshal, and weapons skills.

Knaight
2016-05-09, 03:57 AM
Alchemist
Assassin
Astrologer
Beast Master
Courtier
Healer
Marshal
Martial Artist
Mechanist
Ranger
Scholar
Seafarer
Thief

I'm seeing a few major gaps here. Notably:
Merchant
Farmer
Artisan
Investigator
Spy
Lawyer
Statesman (a gender neutral term would be preferred here, but I'm blanking on anything generic).

Martial artist is also a little bland. I'd split it into different skills:
Barbarian
Knight
Soldier

Neither list is comprehensive.


I don't really have any archetypes or professions to contribute, but I would strongly advice you to have a more easily understood nomenclature. For instance, I'm genuinely wondering if "Healer" is a skill or a collection of skills or a character who happens to have a collection of skills, it sounds like it should be the last option but the way you present it it's not obvious that it is.
This is a pretty routine type of design. The use of archetypes as broad collections of skills and characters that are made up from multiple archetypes at different levels is an established standard. See: Barbarians of Lemuria, The Shadow of Yesterday, RISUS.

Tentreto
2016-05-09, 04:38 AM
Off the top of my head, the FF5 job list has a range of professions that may spark some ideas.
Also, alchemist seems quite a good candidate for being able to mix magic and tech.
Ranger seems quite powerful if it is beneficial over all land, so maybe add another to give another aspect such as Explorer.
Also might be good to have a list of mage schools people follow and why. It might also be prudent to see how many can use magic- if everyone has latent power vs only the select.
Gets me thinking of that sufficiently advanced tech quote...

For the setting, a good idea might be for the account of war between magi and techies to be disputed; who started it and who was evil could define a region.

tombowings
2016-05-09, 05:59 AM
The schools of magic (at this point are):

College of Enchantments and Wizardry (general magic)
College of Illusions
College of Shaping Magics (similar to D&D's transmutation)
College of Naming Incantations (teleportation, mind-control, banishment, and counterspells)
College of Air Magics
College of Earth Magics
College of Fire Magics
College of Water Magics
College of Cosmic Magics (stars, shadows, and darkness)
College of Black Magics
College of Greater Summonings (summoning of powerful demons)


All characters have the option of selecting College of Magic during character creation. Beginning character know a handful of (5-6) spells, albeit with a lower chance of success. Electing not to choose a College of Magic grants a character a +20% Magic Resistance [not being attuned to magic].

TheTeaMustFlow
2016-05-09, 08:49 AM
A few potential gaps that haven't been mentioned:

Bureaucrat (potentially covered by courtier, but those are different things)
Law Enforcement (could go by many names depending on what society is like, but it's always going to be there in some respect)
Criminals other than Thieves and Assassins (Con Artists, Smugglers, etc.)
Entertainer (again, possibly split up)

Might I suggest that the archetype abilities not be exclusive? That is to say, that there would be overlap between the skills and abilities of the archetypes, e.g. that both a scholar and a mechanist might be able to identify a piece of machinery, but the mechanist would be able to repair it while the scholar couldn't, although he could also identify the coat of arms painted on the side of the machine...

What kind of technological level were you looking at? Are guns a thing? Electricity? Internal Combustion Engine?

And what's society and government like?

tombowings
2016-05-09, 12:53 PM
A few potential gaps that haven't been mentioned:

Bureaucrat (potentially covered by courtier, but those are different things)
Law Enforcement (could go by many names depending on what society is like, but it's always going to be there in some respect)
Criminals other than Thieves and Assassins (Con Artists, Smugglers, etc.)
Entertainer (again, possibly split up)

Might I suggest that the archetype abilities not be exclusive? That is to say, that there would be overlap between the skills and abilities of the archetypes, e.g. that both a scholar and a mechanist might be able to identify a piece of machinery, but the mechanist would be able to repair it while the scholar couldn't, although he could also identify the coat of arms painted on the side of the machine...

Of course, overlap is possible. I have a couple ideas in mind for how to handle this, but, as with everything, it's still a work in progress.



What kind of technological level were you looking at? Are guns a thing? Electricity? Internal Combustion Engine?

And what's society and government like?

As far as society goes, there are three/four main meta-cultures.

The first, the Delmorian Alliance is a loose alliance of city states, reminiscent of both ancient Greece and the Italian Renascence. The tech level there is high medieval in terms of weaponry with Renascence style architecture and navy.

The second, so far unnamed culture, is reminiscent of the North from the Song of Ice and Fire series., known for their stout giant-battling warriors, sturdy fortifications, harsh and wild nature, and strong discipline.

The other two cultures are even lass fleshed out.

That being said, high ranking mechanists and alchemists are able to exceed and even raise the normal tech level.