Monk with strenuous restrictions, can it be made good?

[Efrate]

Hey all. Looking for a bit of feedback. Running with basic 3.0 adventure path, updated on the fly to 3.5. Sunless citadel and its sequels, in speaker of dreams right now. The game is for 3 new players and 1 experienced gamer. The party is DuskBlade, Rogue, Ranger, Monk. Our monk is lamenting her ability to be pretty much anything useful. Wondering if there was a way to keep her relevant in and out of combat, with the following restrictions.

Stats are elite array.

Books available: Core, PHB2, that is it. No SRD, web enhancements, etc. The original goal was to keep things simple so everyone wasn't lost in a sea of options. Unfortunately, that means options for literally everyone is severely limited. I do allow rebuilding, and because I know how strenuous my restrictions were but they are in line with what the adventured originally planned for. I also give out two level 1 bonus feats, one is the +2/+2 skill feats, similar to regional feats in FR, and one that "fits" the role of the person. In the monks case that was weapon finesse.

Party is level 6 and going to hit 7 next session. The monk has spoken to me about how she feels more or less useless and under powered compared to the rest, and asked me for options. She wants to maintain an identity as a martial artist and doesn't really want to track a bunch of spells but will consider it if no other decent options present themselves. I won't allow retraining of the +2/+2, but everything else is fair game.

So is there a way to fix this, short of just dropping monk for almost anything else? The concept and character are good, she RPs it well, but being more or less useless in all situations is wearying and I can't think of a way other than "don't be a monk" to fix it. Ideally without spell casting, or with a very limited list.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

[Inevitability]

If you're the DM, why not talk to the group about the problem? Explain that the monk's player feels useless (something they should accept if it's truly the case) and that while you know of a way to make her character stronger, it involves using books none of the other players can access.

If no one objects to this, simply rebuild the monk using some material from other books. The fear of 'getting lost in a sea of options' won't be grounded, as you're the only one actually looking through the books.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can change the monk's race to something a bit stronger, like a githzerai. They have +6 dex, -2 int, +2 wis, weak SR/SLAs, a +4 armour bonus when conscious, and favoured class (monk). Normally, it's LA +2, reasonably, it's LA +1, and on a monk, it may just about balance out at LA +0.

A template, like half-celestial, can help as well. Plenty of useful racial things in the monster manual.

[Efrate]

I know my group, and at least two if not all three will be upset and clamor for similar special treatment. I wanted to keep power level within reason for the adventures, so its a challenge and not just hand waved away. Since this is a secondary campaign running almost 100% as written from premade modules, I don't want to adjust everything to heck and back to keep a threat relevant.

Optionally, since all but the duskblade are not likely to find and exploit crazy loopholes, and he won't if I talk to him to keep his power level in line, is there a selection of reasonable material that won't totally ruin either the action economy or give a ton of resourcesless or near resourceless power that trivializes everything?

Maybe just adding the complete line? I'd rather not but I don't want to make one player happy at the expense of others, nor do I want her to continue feeling like she is not contributing, or make everyone better while she still lags quite a bit behind. Granted monk makes that hard, but if everyone's power level goes up by a set amount I think she may still be left in the dust.

[Florian]

@Efrate:

Monk has the serious flaw of being a quite MAD class, all the while inviting players (and gms) to push any aspect of the class, then wondering what went wrong.

Rethink the basic build and see where you can fill flaws with basic items instead of spreading the monk too thin.

Amongst other things, that means going STR for to hit and damage, reducing DEX and WIS a bit, as they will mostly be useful later in the game and raising INT to be at least 12 to have a broader skill range.

Compensate that by giving some arcane wands to the character (that the dusk blade can activate for him), like mage armor, magic weapon.

[Aleolus]

You could allow the Rogue and Monk partial Martial Maneuver advancement, with the monk having slightly more than the rogue. The rational being that the other two have access to magic, so don't need martial maneuvers, and the monk gets slightly more because she has a slight leg up in that feild due to already being a martial artist.

If the players ask you cab explain that the Monk player felt like they weren't contributing significantly, so you tried to do something that would give them a bit more she could do without overshadowing the rest of them

[Gildedragon]

Open tome of battle as an option. PHBs 1 and 2 are limiting for character options. Maybe guide the monk towards shadowsun ninja: it also gives the party some healing power

[Honest Tiefling]

Open tome of battle as an option. PHBs 1 and 2 are limiting for character options. Maybe guide the monk towards shadowsun ninja: it also gives the party some healing power

I am going to have to second this. Tome of Battle is a subsystem, so people who don't want it can just ignore it for the most part. It's also on the web, so if people want they can try to familiarize themselves with it there.

You have a dex-based monk, for crying out loud. I don't even know if opening all of the other books would even help at this point given that the class is sorta doesn't work to be dex-based. If others are going to complain about special treatment for someone trying to do an optimized build, then I think opening up the Tome of Battle means that everyone can access it and there are genuine dex based options there!

[Troacctid]

The problem with Monk is that the class features are crap. With so many abilities that do essentially nothing, the class is uncomfortably close to NPC Warrior. And the fact that Monk levels compare poorly against monster classes definitely says something.

You can be a Monk, but after one or two levels, you should be gone. Extra daily uses of Stunning Fist are not worth it.

[Darrin]

On this forum, the monk is frequently despised for being horrendously underpowered. Even if you add the entirety of the 3.x library, with all the options available to world-class optimizers, most of them won't even touch the stankness that permeates the monk. The problems with the class go well beyond all the different options you can bolt onto it: the monk is just not fundamentally designed to be good at what it's supposed to be good at.

Quick fix: Give the monk full BAB (or BAB equal to class level when attacking with unarmed strikes) and let them use Flurry of Blows on a standard attack.

If any players give you pushback on this, then ask them if they'd be willing to swap characters with the monk player, or trade in their current PC for a monk two character levels higher than their current PC. If they refuse, you've got your answer: even they can't tolerate playing a monk, and should concede that the class needs some help to have any hope of pulling it's weight with the group.

[Florian]

Quick fix:

Use Pathfinder Unchained Monk, be happy. :D

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Abuse the fact that the monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon when it benefits her. So give the monk a Permanencied magic fang effect, which then opens her up to enhancing her unarmed strike directly. Rule that the monk's entire body counts as her unarmed strikes so any enhancements to her unarmed strikes apply to her whole body. Give her the throwing and distance enhancements so he can flurry her way across the battlefield. Ghost touch allows her to choose whether to be corporeal or incorporeal at any given point. Metalline gives major benefits for hardness and hp when she decides to become adamantine. Manyfang would give her x4 damage. Every +1 to her body's enhancement bonus grants +2 to hardness (which you should allow) and +10 hit points. Allow her to take Ancestral Relic or Item Familiar as feats to apply to her unarmed strike. Give her additional items such as a necklace of natural weapons (unarmed strike) (from Savage Species), monk-only hand wraps, and stacked weapon crystals, each of which grants several additional weapon abilities which stack (and enhancement bonuses which, unfortunately, don't) for really cheap. A lesser acid & cold & electricity & fire weapon crystal grants +4d6 energy damage and costs a grand total of 16,500 gp. Look in the A&EG for the monk-only sparring master of the dummy dummy of the master, which allows her to take 10' steps. A couple of castings of polymorph any object are a permanent boost, can grant the monk some seriously nice stats and abilities, aren't terribly expensive, and won't even give the monk LA to deal with (though they can be dispelled). A tooth of Leraje grants a CL 20 magic weapon effect (which is a +5 enhancement bonus) for 20 hours per day as a spell-like ability.

There are lots of items and effects which are a lot more useful on a monk if you know what you're doing and have a DM that allows them.

[Troacctid]

Rule that the monk's entire body counts as her unarmed strikes so any enhancements to her unarmed strikes apply to her whole body. Give her the throwing and distance enhancements so he can flurry her way across the battlefield. Ghost touch allows her to choose whether to be corporeal or incorporeal at any given point. Metalline gives major benefits for hardness and hp when she decides to become adamantine. Manyfang would give her x4 damage. Every +1 to her body's enhancement bonus grants +2 to hardness (which you should allow) and +10 hit points. Allow her to take Ancestral Relic or Item Familiar as feats to apply to her unarmed strike.
This is straying away from the RAW, and in a pretty absurd direction. I don't think it's a can of worms you want to open.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is straying away from the RAW, and in a pretty absurd direction. I don't think it's a can of worms you want to open.At the very least, Permanencied magic fang and direct enhancements (due to being considered a manufactured weapon), stacked weapon crystals, and necklace of natural weapons are all RAW.

[Troacctid]

At the very least, Permanencied magic fang and direct enhancements (due to being considered a manufactured weapon), stacked weapon crystals, and necklace of natural weapons are all RAW.
Permanencied Magic Fang yes, direct enhancements no. Even with Magic Fang, you still need a way of making your unarmed strikes masterwork. I don't believe that's possible, at least in the allowed sources.

[Grim Reader]

Core is fundamentally unbalanced, with Monk at the bottom and Druid at the top. Adding in the PHB2 is not enough to fix this. I don't think anyone here is surprised that a monk feels more and more left behind as they advance in levels.

Also, while you can do things with a Duskblade, Ranger and Rouge can be left behind if you allow too many options, so you've put yourself in a delicatly balanced place.

Suggestions:

1) Relax the alignment limitations a bit. One or more Barbarian levels papers over the cracks a little, especially Lion Totem. d12 hit die, rage, and pounce helps. Is there a feat that lets levels stack? I don't think so.

2) Expand the allowed books slightly, without it being overwhelming. Everyone gets to pick one additional book to take stuff from.

3) Some kind of magic item that helps the Monks problems? Not sure what would fix things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Permanencied Magic Fang yes, direct enhancements no. Even with Magic Fang, you still need a way of making your unarmed strikes masterwork. I don't believe that's possible, at least in the allowed sources.Actually, according to the SRD, adding magic fang automatically makes the unarmed strike masterwork.


Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.Since all magic weapons are masterwork weapons, but magic fang doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork, casting magic fang makes the unarmed strike masterwork -- not that you need it to. Just having the +1 is enough to give the "manufactured weapon" one or more special abilities.


In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.Note that nowhere does it state that a magic weapon must be masterwork, or that it must be masterwork to add special abilities on.

[Psyren]

The easiest way for one character to increase their power without opening up a bunch of options for everyone else is to multiclass. That monk could go Monk 2/Druid 18 and be a kung fu bear, right in core, without adding any additional books.

[Troacctid]

Actually, according to the SRD, adding magic fang automatically makes the unarmed strike masterwork.

Since all magic weapons are masterwork weapons, but magic fang doesn't require the weapon to be masterwork, casting magic fang makes the unarmed strike masterwork -- not that you need it to. Just having the +1 is enough to give the "manufactured weapon" one or more special abilities.
Magic Fang gives your natural weapon an enhancement bonus, but it doesn't make it count as a magic weapon—quite possibly for this exact reason. (It's good enough to bypass DR/magic, but not good enough to enchant it with magic weapon properties.)


Note that nowhere does it state that a magic weapon must be masterwork, or that it must be masterwork to add special abilities on.
You're looking in the wrong section. It's under the rules for creating magic items.

Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Magic Fang gives your natural weapon an enhancement bonus, but it doesn't make it count as a magic weapon—quite possibly for this exact reason. (It's good enough to bypass DR/magic, but not good enough to enchant it with magic weapon properties.)

You're looking in the wrong section. It's under the rules for creating magic items.Giving your unarmed strike a +1 enhancement bonus is making it magic (as the enhancement bonus bypasses DR/magic and is an enhancement bonus, fulfilling both requirements for adding special abilities), and granting it that magical enhancement bonus makes it masterwork, according to what I quoted above. And considering how many ways you can make your unarmed strike magical without requiring that it be masterwork beforehand (kensai, psychic weapon master , [I]magic fang, magic weapon, possibly Ancestral Relic), that only adds credence to the idea that granting it a +1 enhancement bonus makes it masterwork for this purpose.

Or you could always just spend 300 gp and make yourself masterwork (upon character creation, if nothing else), since your unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon. You can even do this at 1st level, since Mercantile Background gives you +300 gp for it.

[Hiro Quester]

The easiest way for one character to increase their power without opening up a bunch of options for everyone else is to multiclass. That monk could go Monk 2/Druid 18 and be a kung fu bear, right in core, without adding any additional books.

Im playing a Druid with one monk level right now. It's pretty fun, being a Kung fu tiger. And I'm the one in our party who has to moderate his power level to not overshadow others.

But it does require a lot more system mastery, and keeping track of spell's and such, which this player does not want to do.

Adding in barbarian, fighter, or --better- unarmed Swordsage or shadow sun ninja would be best. One or two levels of monk are about the max, you want in a build.

Alternatively there was a thread here recently about monk redesigns and which worked best, some of which made the monk a lot more playable. Try to find that.

Edit: this monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed) by Jiriku is fairly widely respected as making the monk more playable, while keeping the same spirit as the PHBMonk.

[Gildedragon]

Suggested Rebuilds (if you allow Tome of Battle, assuming fractional BAB and saves)

1-2) Monk (Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, +2/+2 Hide & <tumble?>)
3-5) Unarmed* Swordsage (Shadow Hand Discipline Focus, Shadow Blade)
6-7) Shadowsun Ninja

*if you rule unarmed swordsage gives Improved Unarmed Strike then use this other options:

1-2) Rogue (weapon finesse, +2 hide / +2 <tumble?>)
3-5) Unarmed Swordsage (Shadow Hand Discipline Focus, Shadow Blade)
6-7) ShSn Ninja

OR

1-5) Unarmed Swordsage (weapon finesse, +2 hide / +2 <tumble?>, Shadow Hand Discipline Focus, Shadow Blade)
6-7) ShSn Ninja

pure swordsage into ninja has the benefit of giving +wisdom to damage when using a shadow hand or setting sun maneuver (pick one)

[Phenrix]

Alright this is actually way more simple than all that.

Monk is an amazing class, you just have to know what your doing and how to set things up for later.

Monk / Druid is fantastic: Shapechange and spellcasting is a great combo. "im a self healing tank versed in the use of divine magic who has no need of armor or weapons"

Monk / Cleric is also incredible: Yea you have to forgo the armor profs, but the HD, spell list, and prestige options from this are great.

A more simple solution will cause some backlash, just give the monk a divine blessing from a deity. Something that balances the party members, but sets the monk to a more equal level.
Alternatively, you can give the monk a specific item, that gives the monk the ability to capitalize on the dex/wis combo for AC.

While i agree that only using those books severely limits the potential of a monk, EG; reaping mauler, drunken master, ect. I fully understand the idea of preventing players from drowning in options, however, i would suggest that you use the magic item compendium to vary up the loot options. There is a single item that can make the monk more than a match for the rest of the group, (Headband of perfect excellence / Monks belt ) But the overall scope of these items can set an unwanted standard among the group.

[Red Fel]

Alright this is actually way more simple than all that.

Monk is an amazing class, you just have to know what your doing and how to set things up for later.

Ha ha ha ha! Thanks, I needed a laugh this morning.


Monk / Druid is fantastic: Shapechange and spellcasting is a great combo. "im a self healing tank versed in the use of divine magic who has no need of armor or weapons"

Monk / Cleric is also incredible: Yea you have to forgo the armor profs, but the HD, spell list, and prestige options from this are great.

Translation: Stop playing a Monk, and start playing a CoDzilla with Monk levels.

Yeah, I agree that CoDzillas are powerful. But why do you have Monk in there?


A more simple solution will cause some backlash, just give the monk a divine blessing from a deity. Something that balances the party members, but sets the monk to a more equal level.

Which is something the OP wants to avoid, because something generic like "divine blessing" will be something everyone else will want.


Alternatively, you can give the monk a specific item, that gives the monk the ability to capitalize on the dex/wis combo for AC.

And AC really doesn't solve... Well, almost any of a Monk's problems.


While i agree that only using those books severely limits the potential of a monk, EG; reaping mauler, drunken master, ect. I fully understand the idea of preventing players from drowning in options, however, i would suggest that you use the magic item compendium to vary up the loot options. There is a single item that can make the monk more than a match for the rest of the group, (Headband of perfect excellence / Monks belt ) But the overall scope of these items can set an unwanted standard among the group.

Most of those classes aren't all that good, either. The fact is, a Monk is at its best when either (1) it's not being a Monk (e.g. Druid with Monk dip) or (2) when it's being heavily supported by other party members (e.g. bunch of spells and buffs to keep the Monk relevant).

I'm going to agree with what other posters have said. One option is to let the Monk rebuild her class, or just bring in a fresh character. Another, as Grim Reader suggests, is to loosen alignment restrictions and allow a bit of multiclassing. (Barbarian Monk would be very helpful.) A third, as Darrin points out, is to offer to boost her character directly, and then counter any challenge to that by asking if the other players would rather use a Monk.

Fact is, Monks are a poor class; Core-only Monks are an amazingly poor class.

[ATHATH]

Alright this is actually way more simple than all that.

Monk is an amazing class, you just have to know what your doing and how to set things up for later.

Monk / Druid is fantastic: Shapechange and spellcasting is a great combo. "im a self healing tank versed in the use of divine magic who has no need of armor or weapons"

Monk / Cleric is also incredible: Yea you have to forgo the armor profs, but the HD, spell list, and prestige options from this are great.

A more simple solution will cause some backlash, just give the monk a divine blessing from a deity. Something that balances the party members, but sets the monk to a more equal level.
Alternatively, you can give the monk a specific item, that gives the monk the ability to capitalize on the dex/wis combo for AC.

While i agree that only using those books severely limits the potential of a monk, EG; reaping mauler, drunken master, ect. I fully understand the idea of preventing players from drowning in options, however, i would suggest that you use the magic item compendium to vary up the loot options. There is a single item that can make the monk more than a match for the rest of the group, (Headband of perfect excellence / Monks belt ) But the overall scope of these items can set an unwanted standard among the group.
I wouldn't call a Monk dip "incredible" for a spellcaster; an extra level of spellcasting (and/or wildshaping, if they're a Druid) is often much more useful to them than the ability to be better at punching stuff.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Alright this is actually way more simple than all that.

Monk is an amazing class, you just have to know what your doing and how to set things up for later.
I'm... not sure whether you are joking. On the one hand, you say:

Monk / Druid is fantastic: Shapechange and spellcasting is a great combo. "im a self healing tank versed in the use of divine magic who has no need of armor or weapons"

Monk / Cleric is also incredible: Yea you have to forgo the armor profs, but the HD, spell list, and prestige options from this are great.
Which is a nice subtle reference to the strength of druids and clerics, and points out that you don't need levels in monk to be monk-like. Sensible overall.

But then you say:

While i agree that only using those books severely limits the potential of a monk, EG; reaping mauler, drunken master, ect. I fully understand the idea of preventing players from drowning in options, however, i would suggest that you use the magic item compendium to vary up the loot options. There is a single item that can make the monk more than a match for the rest of the group, (Headband of perfect excellence / Monks belt ) But the overall scope of these items can set an unwanted standard among the group.
The Reaping Mauler is a terrible prestige class, the headband of perfect excellence is - a quick search suggests - unrealistically expensive* at level 6-7, costing 180.000 gp, and even the monk's belt is a sixth-level character's entire WBL. Then there is the problem that adding numbers to the monk won't make them stronger in the mid-long term - those ability boosters will be available to the other characters. Finally, adding numbers to the monk won't increase their options in combat, and won't improve the synergy between the monk's class features.

In general, go with the first bit: at level 7 monk 2/cleric 5 is nice, so is monk 2/druid 5.


*Not to mention plain overpriced: it adds +6 to str/dex/wis, but you can get +6 to all stats for only 200.000 gold - 20.000 gp for an extra +6 con - why not? - and +6 int/cha can't hurt.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Monk's belts are crap on monks. That's, like, +1 to a couple of things for 13,000 gp. They're great on Wis-based non-monks, however.

[Efrate]

The unchained monk from PF seems pretty decent, keeping the flavor of the monk and fixing a lot of issues with a few key choices. I'll run it by her and see if its what she wants to do.

As for monk/druid or monk/cleric, all your really get is a few feats you won't use much, and evasion. On bad reflex save classes with the same hit die. Monk doesn't really help a CoDzilla. Improved unarmed strike is great on a druid giving it even more absurd attack routine, but druids need exactly one feat in core: natural spell. So is it worth delaying spell access to get a feat you can just take at 1st level? Oh no you need to use a feat that is going to be either improved initiative or extend spell to get even more awesome. Because that is such a tough pill to swallow for being awesome. You get a tiny bonus because an animal form might have sweet dex with evasion, but not worth delayed spell access.

Same with cleric, but they can't as easily shenanigan into silliness with IUS and natural attacks, they need to spend a domain on the crummy (in core) animal domain, and only get shapechange as a 9th level domain.

And when yer already a 12 headed lenarean pyrohydra, or anything else absurd, why do you need 4 more attacks?

Not trying to be a pain, but saying a monk is good because you can tack it onto one of the two most powerful classes and doesn't hurt them much isn't really a good option, nor does it show the monk is good.

[Psyren]

The unchained monk from PF seems pretty decent, keeping the flavor of the monk and fixing a lot of issues with a few key choices. I'll run it by her and see if its what she wants to do.

If your GM (hopefully) goes this route, don't forget its ki power list. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) That's where a lot of the uMonk's power and utility come from.



Not trying to be a pain, but saying a monk is good because you can tack it onto one of the two most powerful classes and doesn't hurt them much isn't really a good option, nor does it show the monk is good.

Exactly - it's not. Ding ding ding!

[Mato]

@Efrate, tell all them in a joking manner that they will all struggle and die anyway.

The brutal honesty of the situation is you're in a very bad situation and you are part of the blame. The adventures are designed to be ran by a wizard, cleric, rogue, and fighter and everything else is how an alternative choice fills in for one of those roles. By limiting things to the core+PHB2 you've prevented many of those alternative options from ever obtaining proficiency in what they should try to replace.

Now I'm not necessarily saying that the book limitation is at fault here. I understand your reasoning but I question your method of doing it. Like if you wanted to keep things simple, why on earth did you think shotgunning fifteen class choices at them with zero guidance on expectations would work out? Because you decided not to give things 100% and lead the transition of their ideas into the rules they made some very poor choices and in a few levels it won't just be the monk struggling to stay alive.

And since you want to deny your players the opportunity to learn new content you can't use the easy fixes of using splat alternative class features or items. Instead you have two and only two options, readjust the campaign or start handing out freebies. The former will require a lot of on the fly conversions and tweaks that will play out like payback, because you didn't want to help them before you have to do it now. And the latter of giving freebies is going to destroy their expectations of every game after this. In example, "why can't I be a githzerai monk with flaming shock frost gloves at level one, my last DM let me." You'll also have the problem that you already had the wisdom to guess, the other players will want freebies too.

So you are in, and played the largest role, in a very bad situation. What you really owe your players is to man up to part of it. Spend the start of your next session and explain what the adventure was designed for. You can play it off like you knew they would struggle but wanted to respect their choices if you're worried about your appearance to them. But the point to bring up is that a player has expressed a feeling be inadequacy and it detracts from their fun if they are left behind so you want to open up some content that you feel will provide minimal changes to their character concept but should help bring them up to par. Then put a couple wands of vigor & lesser restoration on the next few opponents because the ranger's access to healing isn't going to work. A little ten minute pow wow with open minds will help your group far more than ad hoc homebrew changes will. You may even get lucky and have a huge bonding moment where everyone starts brainstorming and working out ideas on how to help optimize each other.

[BilltheCynic]

You're original goal of limiting options was to prevent the players from being lost in a sea of options. Unfortunately, you've discovered that Core is very, very unbalanced. My proposition is to let each player choose one splat book or web enhancement that they can add to the list of available options (Srd should count as a web enhancement). This should keep the options limited while also opening up a lot more choices. Guide the monk to ToB, then either a) have her play a swordsage and say she's a monk, or b) go monk 2/swordsage 3/shadow sun ninja x. SSN stacks monk abilities with maneuvers, so she can keep feeling monk like while actually having useful things to do.

Unfortunately, monk is a very poorly designed class, and has a ton of splatbook options that are mostly very bad. The few good ones give their best stuff in the first two levels. There's a reason monk is considered a two level class.

[eggynack]

Monk / Druid is fantastic: Shapechange and spellcasting is a great combo. "im a self healing tank versed in the use of divine magic who has no need of armor or weapons"
It seems a lot like you started out talking about monk/druid here, but then just listed a bunch of qualities of a straight classed druid. Yes, wild shape and spells are a great combo. Not one that requires any levels in monk, but a great combo. Same goes for being a self healing tank with no need for armor and weapons. Monk provides a couple of things for a druid, but a lot of it can be replicated through a monk's belt.

[Aquillion]

Alternative suggestion:

Add one or two splatbooks, which will be available to everyone (so it won't be obvious special treatment.) Choose those based on ones that will help the Monk somehow. This will fix your problem of worrying that there are too many options while still giving ways to fix the Monk (and other people, later on, if there are other problems.)

I'm not sure which splatbooks to add (any suggestions? Ideally they would be ones with a "central" feel to them so people wouldn't complain, rather than blatantly being books aimed at the Monk.)

Tome of Battle is an obvious choice, since it's pretty much intended as the fix for many kinds of class disparity, but it would require that the Monk heavily rewrite their character.

[Telonius]

Step back a second from the abyss of another Monk debate ... and see what the situation is. It's not a Monk feeling inadequate in a team of Cleric, Druid, and Wizard; it's a Monk feeling inadequate in a team of Ranger, Rogue, and Duskblade (all with the same severe limitations of being mostly Core-only). While I completely get the impulse to give every possible way the Monk is awful (and it is), the bar is a lot lower than "fix all the balance issues in D&D." She has to be (and feel) somewhere near as useful as a Rogue or a Ranger.

Freebies and loot can go a long way. Throwing in a Scorpion Kama, or even something like an Intelligent Weapon, can go a long way to fix it. Maybe put together your own Legacy item (gi of the master, or something like that) that does impose a cost but scales up a lot better than the official ones.

Putting the Monk in the spotlight in some social encounters can help, too. Arrange it so that she's the only person that can solve something: figure out a reason that an NPC would only trust her, and not the others.

[Troacctid]

See, the thing is, it's not that difficult to make a monk relevant, but it gets significantly more difficult if you want to remain true to a martial arts theme.

In any case, multiclassing is a given. A single-class monk is not getting anything done.

If you're sticking to core, you have a handful of options. If you're Strength-based, there's Dragon Disciple—typical entry would be Monk 2/Duskblade or Beguiler 1/Fighter or Ranger 2. Horizon Walker can work for a Strength-based monk as well, with something like Monk 2/Ranger 3 as the entry. Assassin works if you're Dex-based, either with Rogue 3/Monk 2 or Rogue 1/Monk 2/Fighter or Ranger 2. If you don't like Assassin, you can go Monk 1 or 2/Rogue X. None of these are amazing, but they are a lot more functional than a straight monk.


Giving your unarmed strike a +1 enhancement bonus is making it magic (as the enhancement bonus bypasses DR/magic and is an enhancement bonus, fulfilling both requirements for adding special abilities),
Those aren't the requirements for adding special abilities.


and granting it that magical enhancement bonus makes it masterwork, according to what I quoted above.
Magic Fang has no text to that effect.


And considering how many ways you can make your unarmed strike magical without requiring that it be masterwork beforehand (kensai, psychic weapon master , [I]magic fang, magic weapon, possibly Ancestral Relic), that only adds credence to the idea that granting it a +1 enhancement bonus makes it masterwork for this purpose.
If having an enhancement bonus made you a magic weapon, all masterwork weapons would be magic. Being considered a magic weapon for the purpose of bypassing DR/magic is not the same as being considered a magic weapon for the purpose of adding other magical enhancements. The one merely requires a magical enhancement bonus; the other requires a magic weapon.

Kensai is, of course, a specific exception to the general rules, and Ancestral Relic only works on masterwork items.


Or you could always just spend 300 gp and make yourself masterwork (upon character creation, if nothing else), since your unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon. You can even do this at 1st level, since Mercantile Background gives you +300 gp for it.
Only items can be made masterwork. You are a creature, not an item. Even if you were an item (maybe you got turned into a statue or something), masterwork items have to be created that way, according to the Craft rules. You can't pay 300 gp to make a non-masterwork item into a masterwork.

[Soranar]

In core, the only truly ok melee builds are

-a mounted combat charger (paladin or such usually go for this)
-an AoO build (with horizon walker to provide dimension door)

the reason for this is the lack of easy access to pounce or general ways to get around the battlefield. You can still dish a decent amount of damage on a mounted charge and an AoO build doesn't need to move and relies on reach weapons + 5 ft steps



You do have PHB2 at least so your player could make a decisive strike monk (basically an AoO build)

Problem with this is the following

1 The best decisive strike builds I know use a monk dip, there honestly isn't much reason to stay after 1 or 2 levels (and decisive strike works in armor so you can dump Wisdom)

2 All the reasons you would want to remain a monk (massive bonus to trip , free improved trip) are not available with your book resctrictions

3 All the ways to improve your reach through feats are not available

4 The all important mage slayer feats... you guessed it they're not available

What you can do

I would still dip monk to get unarmed strike + decisive strike (use a reach weapon to threaten squares 10 ft away and your unarmed strike to threaten adjacent squares)
I would multiclass into fighter to get better BAB and feats. As for the rest, unlike a monk you will use a weapon (two handed) so power attack is useful to you.

A high STR is useful for such a monk, a high WIS is questionable since you can wear armor (assuming you multiclass to obtain the armor proficiency)

So that makes you something like this

STR best, CON second, DEX third, INT fourth, WIS and CHA dump

You get 1 attack per round at double damage + any AoO at double damage so even though you are using a fairly terrible weapon you should still deliver ok damage

Since you rely on threatening squares, find a way to increase your reach and any weapon that has the scorpion kama enchant is golden for you

I would go for Monk 1, ranger 4, horizon walker 10 (go see the horizon tripper build, just adjust it to use decisive strike and it still works very well)

[Telonius]

Only items can be made masterwork. You are a creature, not an item. Even if you were an item (maybe you got turned into a statue or something), masterwork items have to be created that way, according to the Craft rules. You can't pay 300 gp to make a non-masterwork item into a masterwork.

Considering what I'm paying for my daughter's martial arts classes, I'd totally allow that to count. :smallbiggrin:

[LTwerewolf]

Note that the skills should be entirely covered between the rogue and ranger, the monk could easily completely dump int and be ok. This opens up those same stats to be allocated in places they actually help. If the rogue has being the face down, cha can also be easily dumped. Str is necessary for her to feel like she's actually putting out some damage. The small dice increase monk gives increases damage far less (and is much more random) than the static increases other classes get. At 6 her unarmed strike damage is 1d8. The same as a longsword at level 1 (with a smaller crit range, so still directly worse). With weapon finesse I assume her str is pretty low, so she's not really adding very much damage to it, so it's the same damage as a commoner can deal at level 1 per hit. At level 6 she's also flurrying for two total attacks. You know who else can deal 1d8 twice in a round with a full attack at level 6? Fighters, barbarians, rangers, duskblades, and paladins. They can also do other things in combat beyond that. They're also adding more to their damage from their str, and are likely using 2h weapons, adding even more. It's understandable that she feels like she doesn't deal high damage: because she isn't.

[mabriss lethe]

It looks like you've got a combination of bad build on top of a bad class. The most direct way to fix it is to allow the player a chance to rebuild, alongside the knowledge of where the previous build failed.

[Efrate]

Lot of things. As for the campaign, the original group was cleric sorcerer rogue monk bard. No fighter but all the roles elsewise filled and a bit of overlap.

Then people died, and things changed,we went down to 4 members since the bard no longer could make it, and through the 6 character deaths we had, the monk was the only one who survived, having better movement speed and some common sense (knowing when to run away) is very helpful.

The ranger has be come de facto out of combat healing and has a bunch of cure light wands. The duskblade is the tanky fighter type, the rogues the rogue, and lacking a wizar analog doesn't matter as much anymore because swarms of low level mooks for aoe aren't as much of a thing anymore. Our rogue has (with gentle prodding) decided to max UMD and has some offensive wands to help that front if needed (magic missle still great vs. incorporol), too high AC targets can be touch spelled by the duskblade (you don't have to channel) and potions of fly have become standard armaments for everyone. Dispel magic is on the duskblade list if a bit late, and ultility consumables are being picked up since potions aren't that expensive if everyone gets a few they might need and the treasure has been rather solid to help support that. The lack of a lot of knowledges is sometimes troublesome but seeking out sages in town isn't that bad.

And the monk is from the town we are in so she has pull, good local knowledge, and contacts to assist as need be, but is increasingly noticing her lack of abiilities in the fights. She has not the stats/spells/desires to be effective at grapple, trip, or be an AoO monkey, thought with sai's houseruled to +4 bonus, which I am sure is RAI, she is a reasonable disarm threat and has helped, but a gibbering mouther doesn't use weapons. She also due to a nice set of rolls for her and a bad set for the enemy managed to see through a succbus's bluff and save the entire party, as well as keep her mind clear.

Maybe its because combat is what you notice the most, but going from being a badass martial artist at low levels, to insignificant after a few is rubbing her the wrong way.

[Mr Adventurer]

Allow the Monk to multiclass into a special houseruled Duskblade: Mystic Fist or somesuch, exchange Duskblade wrapon and armour proficiency to make spellcasting based on Wisdom instead of Int, 4 skill points instead of 2, and levels stack with Monk levels for the purposes of (some) Monk special abilities. The utility spells DBs get can do a fair job of emulating wu xia/ninja magic, I'd suggest.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Those aren't the requirements for adding special abilities."Must have a +1 enhancement bonus."


Magic Fang has no text to that effect.No, but the text under the magic weapon section does.


If having an enhancement bonus made you a magic weapon, all masterwork weapons would be magic.You're making the mistake of thinking that, since B is a subset of A, that all A must also be B. This is not true.


Being considered a magic weapon for the purpose of bypassing DR/magic is not the same as being considered a magic weapon for the purpose of adding other magical enhancements.Nope. But it is if it does that and has a +1 magical enhancement bonus (which magic fang grants).


The one merely requires a magical enhancement bonus; the other requires a magic weapon.So use the magic weapon spell.


Kensai is, of course, a specific exception to the general rules, and Ancestral Relic only works on masterwork items.

Only items can be made masterwork. You are a creature, not an item. Even if you were an item (maybe you got turned into a statue or something), masterwork items have to be created that way, according to the Craft rules. You can't pay 300 gp to make a non-masterwork item into a masterwork.But your unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon, which is also an item, by definition. And if you pay 300 gp on character creation, you're not turning a regular weapon into a masterwork one.

Of course, take a look at Bruce Lee and tell me his body isn't masterwork. He built his body into the closest to human perfection you can possibly get. Unlike normal items, the human body can be sculpted and molded after the fact.

[Troacctid]

"Must have a +1 enhancement bonus."
Among other requirements—namely, that the weapon must be a magic weapon and/or a masterwork weapon.


No, but the text under the magic weapon section does.
Which would probably be relevant if Magic Fang made the weapon into a magic weapon—but it doesn't.


So use the magic weapon spell.
Magic weapon doesn't either. Probably for this exact reason.


But your unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon, which is also an item, by definition.
That's not in the definition of "manufactured weapon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_manufacturedweapons)" at all.


And if you pay 300 gp on character creation, you're not turning a regular weapon into a masterwork one.
RAW does not allow you to pay 300 gp during character creation to make one of your natural weapons masterwork. At least, not that I'm aware.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Did I miss the part where the OP specified the monk's build? All I saw was elite array and standard character races.

That said, if the monk is feeling useless, the first step is to ask why. Is the monk unable to hit? Is the monk unable to do damage? Is the monk getting smacked around by the monsters like a red-headed step child because the monk has no AC?

All of these are solvable, to one degree or another. Based on my experience, I would guess that the most likely problem is that the monk put something together like str 13, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 8 with Dodge and Mobility for feats and is no realizing that she can't hit anything and when she does hit, it doesn't do any damage. The easiest solution to help out is a quick rebuild to Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8 and max strength at every opportunity. Snag Weapon Focus and Improved Grapple along with a few potions of Enlarge Person. If she's willing to go whole hog, have her take Half-orc to maximize her strength. She'll have weaknesses (Int and Charisma) but a high strength covers a multitude of build weaknesses.

Doing that gives the monk a decent attack to start out with and when she does hit, she will do some damage. (Especially as she picks up an amulet of mighty fists--or a +1 quarterstaff which should be as good as unarmed strikes for a while). Now, the damage and attack won't be a lot compared to Playground standards, but they should be ok for restricted access elite array characters. Her armor class will be garbage, but careful play, grappling single foes, and potions of mage armor (or scrolls/pearls of power if the duskblade can cast it on her) will help. And did I mention grappling single foes? Pop a potion of enlarge person and between that and improved grapple, she should be able to manhandle pretty much anything she runs into. She'll need to pick when there's any point in doing that, but it should be functional.

As she levels up, she should take Power Attack so as to be able to punish foes with poor ACs. She'll want to keep pumping strength and get a belt of strength along with the standard dex boosting items. You may be able to help her out with a wisdom boosting headband and/or an unarmed strike enhancing body slot item (per Pathfinder headband of wisdom/body wrap) so that she doesn't run into the classic monk neck slot challenge (neck slot is used for periapt of wisdom, amulet of mighty fists, amulet of constitution, and amulet of natural armor--all are important to the monk but pick one).

[Eldariel]

As she levels up, she should take Power Attack so as to be able to punish foes with poor ACs.

...one-handed power attack on a medium BAB elite array character with additional attack penalties for another couple of levels? That's never going to be worth using - she won't get the +19 over enemy AC necessary to make it worth it to PA for even a single point on UA strikes, nor will using Quarterstaff or Greatsword two-handed result in a higher outcome than her average UA Strikes. She will average more damage using +0 Power Attack every turn of her entire career than she will actually using the feat - it should absolutely not be taken here. Monk is one of the worst possible Power Attack users in the game without at least Pounce, Shock Trooper and Power Attack multipliers.

Now, Improved Natural Attack [Monster Manual] will help a bit though. Level 7 + Monk's Belt would give her 3d6 base damage on her fists, averaging 10.5 points. Enlarge Person would add another 1d6 for a total of 14 average damage without strength modifiers; nothing to write home about but it's way more than she could ever do with a Power Attack setup. That still leaves the hitting problem (which with medium BAB, flurry and elite array strength will remain forever), but at least she can do some damage to heavily debuffed enemies. She also gets Improved Trip from her level 6 enabling her to contribute without compromising herself. Though she'd do well to have a reach weapon to trip with, none of which are Monk weapons so that limits her effectiveness with the feat somewhat; still great if she's regularly Enlarged and maxing Strength though. The -4 AC really helps land the flurry too.


Monk is unfortunately the weakest low level class in D&D 3.5 (they lack all the advantages that make warriors comparatively strong on low levels; no good weapon proficiencies, no good armor proficiencies, medium HP, medium BAB, etc. - and too few skill points to be proper skill monkies either) and even later on you have to do a lot of work to contribute on par with the other warrior classes, let alone the ascendant caster classes.

Monk 1/Druid X is decent in a campaign where magic items are ruled to never work in Wildshape and Unarmed Strikes special ability from Monk is ruled to allow you to make a full unarmed primary attack sequence with natural secondaries in Wildshape (technically RAW) - not as strong as a straight Druid overall but has some advantages in terms of Wildshape combat even if behind on Wildshape forms. Monk 2/Cleric X works too but without Sacred Fist, the benefits of the Monk are kinda left behind.

[Soranar]

Optimization means choosing the right options to be the most efficient

Dude you are giving us no options whatsoever at this point

Low stats
No books
Race is set
No templates
No PrC
Limited access to feats

...

I'll go with the forum and just have you DM fiat giving him a bunch of magic items that completely overshadow his companions. Might as well make it an artifact that can be only wielded by a monk of his alignment, with his name, his sex and his race. That should prevent a high UMD character from stealing it from him.

Say a scorpion Kama (adds his unarmed strike damage to damage) that grants pounce and +6 to all stats

He might not feel useless with that

[Grim Reader]

Soranar makes a good point about the lack of options.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)) is a good summary on how the classes balance among each other and the particular issues of the Monk.

I'm going to list out the problems you're facing:

Core is by far the most unbalanced bit of 3,5 and you have banned all the rest, which included options that could improve classes with issues.

Monk is by far the worst performing class in core. In addition, monk needs several different stats to work, making it the most dependent on high ability scores. So your monks usefulness takes an additional gutshot from low ability scores.

Ranger and Rogue are not great performers either. So raising the Monk becomes a delicate piece of work, where you could easily end up shifting the problem to one of them.

So my advice remains a) allow everyone to pick one extra book each to take options from, or b) convert to pathfinder and convert the monk to an unchained monk.

[GreyBlack]

Quick and dirty fix? Allow the player to coat her bones in Adamantine and rule that it counts for overcoming damage reduction. Allow that skeleton to be enchanted for the purposes of magical enhancement. Call it the Wolverine fix. If any players complain, then allow them the same option, but ask how they're going to get it done. I'd put the procedure necessary at a DC50 heal check and then a Fortitude save vs death.

[SillySymphonies]

Let's work with what we've got:

Stats are elite array. Books available: Core, PHB2 (...) allow rebuilding, (...) two level 1 bonus feats, one is the +2/+2 skill feats, (...) weapon finesse. Party is level 6 and going to hit 7 next session. (...) won't allow retraining of the +2/+2, (...) sai's houseruled to +4 bonus, (...).
(Did I miss anything?)

Human monk 7: CR 7; Medium humanoid (human); HD 7d8+7; hp 41; Init +2; Spd 50 ft.; AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 14; Base Atk +5; Grp +8; Atk +8 melee (2d6+3, unarmed strike) or +7 ranged (1d2+3, shuriken); Full Atk +7/+7 melee (2d6+3, unarmed strike) or +6/+6 ranged (1d2+3, shuriken); SA stunning fist 7/day (Fort DC 16), trip +7; SQ 5th-lvl cohort, evasion, immunity to extraordinary disease, slow fall 30 ft., wholeness of body (14 hp); AL N; SV Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +6 (+8 enchantment); Str 15+1 (+3), Dex 14 (+2), Con 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1), Wis 13 (+1), Cha 10 (+0).

Skills and Feats: Balance +9, Jump +18, Knowledge (arcana) +0, Knowledge (religion) +0, Listen +10, Spot +10, Tumble +14; Ability Focus (stunning fist), Cleave, Combat ReflexesB, Improved Natural Attack, Improved TripB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Leadership, Regional FeatB, Stunning FistB, Weapon FinesseB Power AttackB.

Language: Common.

Use wealth by level and cohort to gain access to enlarge person etc.

[Tiri]

sai's houseruled to +4 bonus,

I would just like to say that sais already give a +4 to disarming by default. No houserules required.

[Efrate]

Dot to weapon size it actually gives nothing though. Light weapons give -4. Its an issue.

[Yklikt]

Dot to weapon size it actually gives nothing though. Light weapons give -4. Its an issue.

So it actually needs to be +8?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So it actually needs to be +8?To gain a net +4, yes.

[Tiri]

Dot to weapon size it actually gives nothing though. Light weapons give -4. Its an issue.

Why would you houserule it to +4, then? It still does nothing.

[Efrate]

I ignore the light weapon part so its a total of +4, or alternatively its +8. Point is Sai gives a +4 bonus after all is said and done to disarm so you have a reason to use them.

[Aquillion]

Alright this is actually way more simple than all that.

Monk is an amazing class, you just have to know what your doing and how to set things up for later.

Monk / Druid is fantastic: Shapechange and spellcasting is a great combo. "im a self healing tank versed in the use of divine magic who has no need of armor or weapons"

Monk / Cleric is also incredible: Yea you have to forgo the armor profs, but the HD, spell list, and prestige options from this are great.Don't forget Monk 1 / Wizard 19: You wasted a caster level, but hey, you're still a wizard!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Druid 1/druid 19 with a fanged ring and a monk's belt is far superior to a monk 1/druid 19. 8,000 gp for a couple of wilding clasps, and there you go.

[Seppo87]

Add the following to the monk:
Full BaB when flurrying (apply penalities normally)
Can get extra flurry attacks as a standard action
Bonus feats as Fighter at lvs 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 and counts as a Fighter of half level for rquirements

[Mr Adventurer]

Add the following to the monk:
Full BaB when flurrying (apply penalities normally)
Can get extra flurry attacks as a standard action
Bonus feats as Fighter at lvs 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 and counts as a Fighter of half level for rquirements

Also Diamond Soul is fully discretionary, you can apply it as you like for no action for each spell you are subject to.

Also limits on Monk class features are per encounter, not per day (where they are such).

[Eisfalken]

There is another option, along the lines I've been tinkering with lately: if you permit psionics in the game (which is basically "magic but different" for most purposes), you could do a monk / psychic warrior build. There's a feat in the Eberron setting called Tashalatora that basically says that you can pick a single psionic class and it stacks with monk for unarmed damage, flurry, and AC bonus.

The reason this is neat build is that psychic warriors get more psionic power from Wis, so you could potentially dump Str a little to stick with more Wis, Dex, and Con. You may have to wait to get the benefit of Tashalatora at 6th level, if you don't have enough Int for good skill points, but it's still worth the wait.

You only really have to add the Expanded Psionics Handbook to the game if you do this, and it doesn't really do much to the setting. Psionics and spells are consider mostly the same thing in most default settings (it's called "transparency" in the rules), so all you're really doing is adding an extra flavor of special powers to the game. Lots of psionic powers are actually direct copies of spells, actually; they have names like psionic dimension door and psionic true seeing. Main difference between spells and powers is that spells have effects based almost entirely on the caster's level, while powers have to usually be boosted to have bigger effects (though range and duration are usually still based on level).

Tashalatora is in Secrets of Sarlona if you want to lay eyes on it.

But as others have said, the basic monk sucks. You can't "fix" it without additional books in 3.X, and all that does it make it moderately playable. You still have to abandon the class and find another one to use unarmed strike with.

FYI, the most "legit" way to get weapon enchants with unarmed strike is necklace of natural weapons from 3.0 book Savage Species. It's technically official (the best kind of official), and relatively cheap. Basically it's double masterwork cost, plus straight enhancement costs, per natural attack you enhance this way; you only need it for unarmed strike, so there it is. There's also a technicality in the 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide to allow bracers of armor to have armor enhancements, but no more than +5 equivalent (as in, you can have +2 to +8 armor bonus itself, then add enhancements with an equivalent cost of a +5 bonus). This is good because you can also add the flat-cost enhancements, like speed or quickness, that benefit monks better than a flat AC bonus.