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Yora
2016-05-08, 12:18 PM
This is primarily a general question about methods and procedures. But I am putting forth this question because I am actually in the process of creating a sandbox for a specific game. And usually it seems that people have better ideas and can be much more specific when talking about an actual example instead of entirely abstract.
So even though I'll present my setting and goals as a case study to talk about, any general advice regarding this subject is very welcome, even if it might not be applicable or fitting for my own campaign.

The campaign I want to run is set in a late Stone Age/early Bronze Age where the first coastal towns have just started to grow into early small cities. But it's still mostly untamed and unexplored wilderness, with lots of ungoverened farming villages of only a few hundred people. And all village chiefs have much fewer capable warriors under their command than they wish they had. It's a world where elite mercenaries are people of high respect and get paid a lot, usually being permanent guests in the homes of their current employers. The regular clan warriors are just not capable of dealing with big monsters or witches, and when most shamans re not able to appease a hostile spirit, they lack the power to force it to leave a village alone.
This is where the PCs enter the campaign. The plan is that the party stays in a besieged village for a few months until the area is reasonably safe once more, and then move on to a different place where the need for heroes is higher, and the offered wages better. This concept lets the party wander between adventures and go into creepy places, but with a much more sane motivation than feeding their XP and magic item addiction. It's their job description to care about the plights of villagers and to bring peace instead of destruction, since this is what gets them a comfy bed and well fed. Being heroic doesn't have to be its own reward, it comes with a lots of perks like living like a prince and getting gifts of treasure even when no gold is hauled back from a looted tomb.
(I plan to run the campaign with Basic/Expert D&D, LotFP to be specific, but I don't think that should make much of a difference. It will be a campaign without money and gaining new levels for finishing adventures, and with primarily homebrew monsters and spells.)

Now I am a big fan of Red Tide and Spears of the Dawn, but as greatly done as they are they both seem to be strongly focused on social and political conflicts. For a wilderness campaign as I have in mind, the village would mostly be a home base for the party, where they can get equipment and find specialists to help with an obstacle, and perhaps the occasional showdown when it is revealed that the source of the evil in the surrounding forests lies right inside the village.
When preparing a sandbox for a political campaign, it's often a good idea to start with a few factions and their most important members, and defining their goals and how that puts them into ongoing conflicts. Then you let the players get wind of the situation and give them a few pushes until they are entangled in it themselves.

What would a similat process be for a sandbox campaign in which the players are expected to seek the solution to most problems by going outside of the village and exploring the surrounding wilderness? Any ideas who the movers and shakers in a wilderness campaign could be? Could an earthquake or a draught take the role of one of the factions and only do a single action throughout the whole campaign?

Do you have any ideas or thoughts on that?

Kaveman26
2016-05-08, 12:49 PM
Well especially because you have Conan of Cimmeria as part of your signature I would draw from some of Robert E Howard's concepts. Sandbox owes itself to a more episodic nature which is something I liked about the Conan stories. Think of the wilderness as a vast unknown where pockets of intrigue arise based on presence of someone or something.

What to avoid:
1. Money
2. Technology

Some Ideas:
1. Cults-lean towards mysticism and tribalism.

2. Long lost cultures whose echoes still impact the world today

In rougher seasons the predators of the region have been known to poach livestock or even the less observant outlying farmer, but as of late the beasts of the jungle have been more aggressive and purposeful. They have probed at the fences and forts of the town itself, seeking weak points. A shaman exiled from the village nearly a decade before has uncovered a totem from a civilization long lost and has swayed the beasts to seek vengeance. His domain is a cave with fragments of a people forgotten to antiquity and guarded by a "insert random templated animal".


3. Aberrant beasts.

Brom's people were all but extinct. More proto human than human and doomed by his ancestry he was the last. A true caveman in a world of progress. Doomed to his solitude he wandered far deeper into the marsh than any sane person would and at it's heart was a serpent who spoke to him. It caressed his mind and promised him a mate and a tribe to call his own if he would but bring the sacrifices needed to fulfill this promise. The serpent blessed him with strength and quickness far beyond his known ability and it gave him an ability to glide through the swamp like a fish...



4. Rival Mercenary groups

5. Artifacts whose purpose is corrupted or misunderstood

6. The tribes who resist progress and remain in the stone ages.

7. Supernatural Disasters.

For three weeks the rain hadn't let up. A thunderstorm of unrelenting fury centered over the peak of Mt. ClosetoTown pelted the countryside, sweeping away crops, drowning livestock and threatening to flood the storehouses of grain which would see the village through the winter. Every man woman and child available has been pulled towards building and holding levies against the flood. Something was causing this storm and that something must be located.



I have a lot more towards this idea that I will come back with time permitting.

Yora
2016-05-09, 05:59 AM
Some good ideas.

Weird cults that worship strange beings or spirits in remote places are always great antagonists. Or could even be particularly unusual allies.

Even long before the modern age, it actually was not uncommon for people to flee from civilization (with it's annoying taxes and conscription) and hide in the most inaccesible parts of the wilderness. It's the case with many of the mountain peoples of Southeast Asia and in Southwest China, and even here in Europe we have the Swiss and the Icelanders.

Mr. Mask
2016-05-09, 08:56 AM
Not sure why this hasn't come up yet... Dinosaurs. And all that comes with them. Dinosaurs AND dragons.


Encountering New Technology
A longbow, an early crossbow, a large sword, or a really nice stone mace, almost anything is new and shiny in this era. If you deck out some characters with fancy new technology, it can bring an excitement not normally present in RPGs.


T-Rex Vs. Dragon
You come upon this dispute. The players can boast about seeing it in town, they can loot the dead tyrannosaurs or dragon, it is a fun encounter to run into, even if they don't get involved.


Monuments
Even in this early stage, you may see some relatively impressive monuments popping up. Flat-topped pyramids a couple of stories high, the size of a large house (possibly a noble's large house). Large statutes, or Stonehenge like constructions used for worship. If there are deities present, you can have more magical and spectacular ones.


Nomadic Tribes
They might be friends, they might be traders, they might be enemies. They might just be eating too much of the grass so the locals hire you to chase them off. You need to watch out, though--these people are tough.


Participating in Legends
This is the early age, legends that will be told for centuries start here. You could have this be specific events, like participating in a ceremony recreating a famous event, or it could be participating in a battle that's really taking place where local sorcerers will empower you so you can fight like in the epic of Gilgamesh. Or, you could have drug induced dreams, essentially trips into the spirit world.

hamlet
2016-05-09, 09:42 AM
Actually, one of the biggest threats to an early bronze-age/new city building civilization is going to be other cities. People in one city are going to run into trouble from bad harvests, monsters, etc., and are going to realize that the greener grass over in a different city is really alluring. The locals, though, realize that they won't be able to afford to keep these new refugees, so they'll try to push them out and maybe hire the PC's to help.

Not only that, any humanoid tribes (assuming a certain level of civilization on their part and not utterly bestial "they're green we kill them" attitudes) are going to feed into that. They'll be interested in survival just as much as everybody else and will realize that the cities are tempting targets both for raiding and for trading. Hell, one major city might form a trade and defense alliance with a local tribe of orcs against another tribe of bugbears putting the PC's in a position to help enforce the peace in a way they never expected.

Building on the idea of ancient civilizations (i.e., ancient advanced humans magically speaking) how about a very old ruined community, an ancient city that served as a blueprint for more modern cities, that suddenly, for some reason TBD, comes alive with specters and ghosts of its former inhabitants seeking to put down these upstart communities all around it, re-establishing order in its old, fallen empire. They might not necessarily be immediately hostile but might send emissaries demanding subservience of local chieftains to an empire most people have forgotten ever existed, but in the end are being stirred up by something or somebody who has an ax to grind.

On a more general note, there are a few decisions you have to make. Primarily, you'll have to decide just how dangerous the wilderness is going to be. Is it a situation where it's about average? Meaning the most dangerous thing that most travelers will face is a robber or an exceptionally hungry predator? Or is the wilderness a bit inimical to human encroachment? How often will travelers face the possibility of danger from monsters/animals/others? How good are the roads? Will they face danger from washed out roads, floods, sinkholes, etc.? Those can be thrown into encounter tables just as well as monsters can. Perhaps, while travelling through an overgrown forest, one of the primary dangers is deadfall on the unmaintained roads: basically, traps because nobody has the power projection capabilities necessary to build and maintain an infrastructure that far out.

You should also build charts for encounters that are multi-tiered if you're doing sandbox. This is a good bit of work early on, but it's rewarding. Things like season, time of day, and danger level should all figure in. Some of the encounters listed might be a group of pilgrims that the PC's just happen to run across. Nothing to get in a fight over, but maybe they invite the PC's to share a camp for the night for added protection of everyone. Good roleplay possibility. Or a trade caravan. Or just a group of hunters who get upset thinking that the PC's are poaching on their territory.

If lycanthropes are a thing, you should include moon phase (or whatever triggers them in your world) as part of these charts. At that time of the month, the crazies just seem to come out of the woodwork.

A broad variety of charts that are interlinked can really bring the world to life.

Democratus
2016-05-09, 09:55 AM
If you are looking for a game with a "home base" and lots of wilderness to explore in a sandbox manner, a hexcrawl may be for you.

This is my hexcrawl go-to resource: The Alexandrian (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17308/roleplaying-games/hexcrawl)

It also has great articles on how to use events and situations rather than plots (railroading).

Yora
2016-05-09, 10:05 AM
Actually, one of the biggest threats to an early bronze-age/new city building civilization is going to be other cities. People in one city are going to run into trouble from bad harvests, monsters, etc., and are going to realize that the greener grass over in a different city is really alluring. The locals, though, realize that they won't be able to afford to keep these new refugees, so they'll try to push them out and maybe hire the PC's to help.
These are very good points, as these things are quite important for a Bronze Age campaign. But for an urban Bronze Age campaign. The question at hand here is wilderness campaigns.
While my setting does have actual cities, I think it's better to not have any within the campaign sandbox and only do villages. Any city would be expected to have such a dominant impact on the whole area that urban adventures about politics push themselves into the center even if the GM doesn't want to. For a wilderness campaign, I would go full out Points of Light and keep settlements to individual independent towns that are only loosely connected and separated by stretches of wilderness.

The other things you said about random encounters are very good advice for both urban and wilderness campaigns. But probably even more so for wilderness ones. In a purely politics based sandbox you could probably do without them, but for a wilderness campaign I think they are indispensible. They are what makes the wilderness a wilderness, and what makes traveling through it interesting.
But you still need a destination to travel to, and that seems to be the more difficult part, that few writers on the subject have adressed in the past.

hamlet
2016-05-09, 10:28 AM
These are very good points, as these things are quite important for a Bronze Age campaign. But for an urban Bronze Age campaign. The question at hand here is wilderness campaigns.
While my setting does have actual cities, I think it's better to not have any within the campaign sandbox and only do villages. Any city would be expected to have such a dominant impact on the whole area that urban adventures about politics push themselves into the center even if the GM doesn't want to. For a wilderness campaign, I would go full out Points of Light and keep settlements to individual independent towns that are only loosely connected and separated by stretches of wilderness.

Actually, these things happen on the village, hamlet, and individual farm basis. Even today, actually. Anywhere less fortunate is going to see migration to more fortunate areas if the misfortune lasts long enough. If one farm has a crop failure due to a flood or blight, there's a fair chance that they'll end up at a neighbor's farm hat in hand asking for help. At a village level, folks who find that the area can't support them anymore will move and try to go where they perceive greater wealth/success, even if their arrival tips the balance negatively.

As for cities, keep in mind that major cities in such a tech level can only exist if the nearby farms and villages all work to support it for mutual benefit. A lot of the folks in the city itself aren't food producers, but must still eat. If their work is valuable, there will be others outside the city who will give food for money/goods (don't know how much money you want to be a part of the campaign, but barter gets kind of rough mechanically). They tend to become gravitational points for lots of things, even if you keep your campaign out of them. A faraway village might feel their presence simply by their absence, having to spend a lot of extra resources on defense that might otherwise come from the city.



The other things you said about random encounters are very good advice for both urban and wilderness campaigns. But probably even more so for wilderness ones. In a purely politics based sandbox you could probably do without them, but for a wilderness campaign I think they are indispensible. They are what makes the wilderness a wilderness, and what makes traveling through it interesting.
But you still need a destination to travel to, and that seems to be the more difficult part, that few writers on the subject have adressed in the past.

The first couple adventures in a sandbox are always a bit contrived. Always. Don't be afraid to grab hold of the entire party and say "this is how it is, this is why you're there, now the adventure is starting." The trick is to use the first couple adventures to set the hooks for things to follow on. Refugees are arriving from less advantaged farms, but the locals can't support so many indigents. Why are they all coming now? What's going on over there? Can the PC's help the locals by helping these migrants?

Maybe they find something in a deep dungeon that sends them on a wild chase to find something far away (playing into the rations and travel rules).

It's all about links to things down the road. It's an art form.

Joe the Rat
2016-05-09, 10:34 AM
Weather. A good deluge-to-rivers-overflowing storm can vastly complicate your travel plans. You should also have a good seasonal plan - when is it warm, when is it cold, how much in each direction, is there/when is the rainy season, etc. Weather can be like a faction - and with magic one that can be "persuaded"

Terrain: Surprise Lakes, Rivers, & Valleys. Traveling along for miles and then suddenly it's several hundred feet down to the next level. Brush/brambles/poppies that block your way. Volcanoes! Those things can pop up in surprising places.

Natural Traps: Deadfalls and sinkholes. Poisonous wells and toxic plants. Sulphur-spewing hot springs. white water and waterfalls. Giant spiders might fall here.

Wildlife encounters: You can get a lot of mileage out of wild boar (a fight and a meal!) and pack predators. You might want to read up on how much food an deer, elk, bear, boar, etc, can provide. (I've been relying on my player's hunting knowledge / google-fu, but they already knew I half-ass random encounters)

Seasonal and Cyclical events: Flooding the farm fields. Herd migrations. Wyvern attack season. The once-every-N years comet/eclipse/days of the blood sun. Tributes to the Temple of Stone and Smoke.

Other peoples. Other cities, unknown traveling societies, different cultures, different technologies, different species. Encounters with hunting or warring parties (or their traps) is most likely, unless you are coming upon a village. For exploration, finding these threats/potential allies ought to be an important mission.

What came before: Traces of the stone age. Prehuman peoples (faeries, giants, snake-people, fomorians, clay men roughly made by the hands of the gods, space vampires, etc). Great Beasts (Giant/Dire everythings, lost valley of dinosaurs). Relics of Lemuria. Zombie plague mammoths. Nathan Brazil.

I have a sheet of "spider-infested forest" encounters that might be useful, if you like.

Democratus
2016-05-09, 10:50 AM
Sites of Wonder:

Don't forget that it is a magical and awesome world. Occasionally, the characters should be reminded of this as they come upon sights that are amazing to behold.

Floating mountains of rock, glowing crystal gardens, plains where lightning strikes up to the clouds, etc.

Yora
2016-05-09, 01:32 PM
If you are looking for a game with a "home base" and lots of wilderness to explore in a sandbox manner, a hexcrawl may be for you.

This is my hexcrawl go-to resource: The Alexandrian (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17308/roleplaying-games/hexcrawl)

It also has great articles on how to use events and situations rather than plots (railroading).

I am more of a fan of point maps myself. (http://hillcantons.blogspot.de/2012/01/crawling-without-hexes-pointcrawl.html)
For a primarily exploration based campaign, hex maps might be better. On a point map possible paths for the party are much more limited and funnels them to interesting sites while traveling between two points. (Though ideally there should always be more than just one obvious route to a destinatiob, so that the players' choice determine what sites they pass through and not the GM dictating it when an NPC sends them somewhere.)
The effect is that there is less time spend on roaming around for something exciting to discover and it's easier for players to stay focused on a goal instead of getting swamped by unlimited options. It also means the GM doesn't need to prepare as many sites, as it's okay if there are big white spots on the map, which means more time to focus on the NPC factions.


Actually, these things happen on the village, hamlet, and individual farm basis. Even today, actually. Anywhere less fortunate is going to see migration to more fortunate areas if the misfortune lasts long enough. If one farm has a crop failure due to a flood or blight, there's a fair chance that they'll end up at a neighbor's farm hat in hand asking for help. At a village level, folks who find that the area can't support them anymore will move and try to go where they perceive greater wealth/success, even if their arrival tips the balance negatively.
Good point. And that actually fits very well into my campaign plans. One of the themes I have planned for the setting is that nothing build by mortals ever lasts and that each village is trying to hold out for as many generation as they can, but they know that eventually they will have to abandon it with the remaining people either scattering to find new homes, being enslaved by their enemies, or being killed by beasts as they become too weak to keep the wilderness at bay any more. Many villages and especially towns are build on the remains of earlier settlements, and along the river and few overland passes there are more abandoned ruins of villages than inhabited ones.
For a sandbox area with 6 to 8 settlements, it certainly will make things much more interesting if there are two or so that are currently struggling hard, and another two that are doing really well and have the capacities to expand and secure more resources that will strengthen their security for decades to come. These don't even have to be right next to each other. You could also have an average village being under pressure by a strong village, while on their other side there's a weak village they could consider taking over if they are forced out of their own.

I really like this a lot. Conflict always happens when two parties want something but there isn't enough to share. And it never gets more fierce then when it's about food and water. Simply having the main settlements start at different levels of prosperity already establishes a fertile field for clashes. They don't have to be fighting when the campaign starts, but whatever the players might be doing might be a spark that ignites those waiting conflicts. I think that's a very good advice for any wilderness campaign.
Except for the final assault to destroy the enemy, most of the action would take place in the wilderness between the villages and on their borders.

I also think a Points of Light wilderness campaign should really have a special random encounter table for natural disasters. Once per month, season, or year, there's a random disaster check to see if there's a disaster and if it's the case, another roll is made to see what disaster. The great thing about disasters (from a narrative perspective) is that they usually come as a surprise to everyone. None of the factions will know about them in advance and have them included in their plans. Which is why I think they should be random instead of planned. If you know there will be a draught in two years, you probably start to play the factions anticipating it, which will make the disaster less disruptive than it would otherwise be. And it also means that you don't have to make the decision when to wreck all the players' big plans or when to let them off easily. If you roll it, the players know they just had bad luck and will have a lot more fun while completely revising all their plans.

Extremely hot summers or extremely cold winters are always good to have. Flooding, earthquakes, and volcanos can also make a big mess. And I think plagues are something completely underestimated by RPGs. Having a bad plague passing through the sandbox area can change everything completely. (There's some evidence that plagues require big cities as breeding grounds, where thousands of people and animals are permanently squeezed together in unsanitary conditions, so you probably wouldn't have them in the early Bronze Age. But for other setting a great idea.) If you have only half a dozen or so main settlements, it'd probably be a good idea to have a one line description of how each one will be affected by each disaster. It may simply say "Can no longer feed itself without raiding."
You could also have various supernatural disasters. In my homebrew setting there's a mountain range covered with volcanos that connect to the Underworld and in the past there have been big erruptions of a gas that poisons the land and turns the corpses into undead. If I run a campaign in that region I would definitly put another big erruption on the disaster table. There have also been a few very rare cases of a Great Old One coming up from the Underworld to the surface and leaving a path of destruction while its heading to who knows where. I would put the chance of that happening extremely low, but think I'll put it on my table for every campaign. :smallbiggrin:

hamlet
2016-05-09, 03:09 PM
If can, get a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia and read the chapter on mass combat and realm management. There's charts in their that cover random crazy events like that: hurricanes, floods, crop failure, etc. Easily adaptable to your situation.

Yora
2016-05-09, 03:31 PM
The Natural Events and Unnatural Events tables are good example for what I had in mind. Unfortunately it says "space here does not permit to go into details about the disasters, they are left to the DM's imagination". :smallamused:

LibraryOgre
2016-05-09, 06:43 PM
Also consider that the villages will have factions in and of themselves... village A and Village B may be competing over a resource, especially if Village A is upstream and dams a river that Village B needs for its purposes. Or Village C might be protecting their territory from the people of village A, while Village A wants to use a resource in their range they're not exploiting (e.g. tin).

kraftcheese
2016-05-10, 12:16 AM
From your OP it seems like the political scene in your campaign would be kind of like the one in King of Dragon Pass; a bunch of clans, each based in their own village, but no big cities in the area.

If you wanted to take influence from it (that is, if you haven't played it) there's disagreements about omens, annual ritual days and what should be done to appease specific gods when times are tough, conflict (both violent and diplomatic) with nature spirits and intelligent nonhumans, calling on gods for help in a skirmish against another tribe/help with crop growth/healing diease.....lots of appealing to the gods.

Yora
2016-05-10, 02:43 AM
I only now remembered something I had planned for a campaign a few years ago. I wanted to have a group of refugee settlers set up their new village in an ancient ruin with a big dungeon underneath, which would be the source of a big adventure.

When having multiple settlements and people might be driven out of them, it's certainly a great idea to also have two or three backup sites where the displaced people might go to. And them moving in there might trigger some new big change to the region.

Kaveman26
2016-05-10, 07:54 AM
Some other "influences and forces" for a wilderness campaign...

The Ferryman:

"Sure you can stamp through the nastiest swamp and mountainous terrain for a hundred miles, or you have to pay the Ferryman"

A person or group that has control of a sole river/lake passageway and you have to bow to their will for passage, or perhaps the Ferryman is a lone ranger long cut off the world who is the only person that knows how to traverse the winding waterways and treacherous rapids...convincing him to help is the tricky part.

Transportation and safe passage are paramount in a good wilderness campaign. Having an entity that holds the key can be immensely RP'able.


Distopian/Utopian Valley:

Every wilderness campaign needs an isolated valley that either harbors a peaceful and blissful little slice of heaven, or a little slice of hell itself. It should have a reputation and be "known" throughout the region.

Yora
2016-05-10, 08:06 AM
There also needs to be a reason why that perfect spot to live is not already settled. Which in turn makes it a very attractive target for the players. If the region is not drowning in high level adventurers, then there is no reason why someone else didn't already get around to deal with the obstacle.

I think that's actually quite good advice in general. If the players are given the option to make big changes to the region, there needs to be a plausible reason why it hasn't already been done yet. A lack of people who would be able to face the challenges involved would be a very good reason.
And at the same time, what benefit would the campaign gain from having a good number of high level adventurers around? I can't really see that making the game more interesting or fun for the players in any way.

Kaveman26
2016-05-10, 08:41 AM
There also needs to be a reason why that perfect spot to live is not already settled. Which in turn makes it a very attractive target for the players. If the region is not drowning in high level adventurers, then there is no reason why someone else didn't already get around to deal with the obstacle.

I think that's actually quite good advice in general. If the players are given the option to make big changes to the region, there needs to be a plausible reason why it hasn't already been done yet. A lack of people who would be able to face the challenges involved would be a very good reason.
And at the same time, what benefit would the campaign gain from having a good number of high level adventurers around? I can't really see that making the game more interesting or fun for the players in any way.


Time constraints.

"We thought about building a pass and road through the mountains but after eight months and twenty dead workers we gave up"

Geography.

"Couldn't get a team of oxen or horses into place to drag off the fallen trees, ground was too dangerous"

There may not be high level adventurers yet.

literacy is a luxury for a just emerging Bronze Age society. There would be scant wizards in place. High levels adventurers have bigger things to do than manage traffic, or they simply don't exist yet.

This is exactly the tact I would approach. If there are bigger kids in the sandbox no one has seen them yet.

hamlet
2016-05-10, 10:04 AM
Playing and combining ideas . . .

How about a situation where Town A's water supply becomes contaminated through some means, which causes them to damn up a small river nearby in order to get enough water for crops and livestock and people, which in turn cuts Town B's water supply, who run up the road to gripe threatening retribution if recompense is not made. Meanwhile, the contamination is caused by Town C's local hedge wizard/witch/whatever doing magical experimentation and dumping refuse into a local swamp or creak to get it washed away and disposed of, which in turn was the original source of water for Town A . . .

And I mean that as a random encounter/event, not an adventure. Just watching the players run around and try to figure it all out would be great for a couple sessions worth of play and fun and working them into the game world and getting them to care about it as more than just a place to rampage and pillage through.

Yora
2016-05-10, 11:27 AM
And I mean that as a random encounter/event, not an adventure.

I think in a sandbox there's really not much of a difference. Random encounters that only make a trip from A to B seem longer and more eventful are only moderately entertaining. In an ideal situation, a random encounter is a trigger for an adventure.

Which is why I think that random encounter tables for a sandbox should be more than just "2d6 orcs; 1d2 owlbears, 1d4 wyverns". These have their place and points, and probably should make up most of the encounters on the table, but a good encounter table should also include prepared scenes that trigger a series of events.
And again, the random element for when and where the events are happening is important. It makes a big difference for the players whether an event is something that could have happened any time in any place and could not have happened to them at all, or something that the GM just decided should be happening to the players right now and throw their whole timetable into chaos.

hamlet
2016-05-10, 12:24 PM
I think in a sandbox there's really not much of a difference. Random encounters that only make a trip from A to B seem longer and more eventful are only moderately entertaining. In an ideal situation, a random encounter is a trigger for an adventure.

Which is why I think that random encounter tables for a sandbox should be more than just "2d6 orcs; 1d2 owlbears, 1d4 wyverns". These have their place and points, and probably should make up most of the encounters on the table, but a good encounter table should also include prepared scenes that trigger a series of events.
And again, the random element for when and where the events are happening is important. It makes a big difference for the players whether an event is something that could have happened any time in any place and could not have happened to them at all, or something that the GM just decided should be happening to the players right now and throw their whole timetable into chaos.

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Yora
2016-05-11, 04:58 AM
So I've been looking at Dark Sun again, probably the best wilderness campaign setting ever made. (Though addmitedly, the bar is not set very high.) And doing some reading on the internet, one comment that really got me thinking is that Athas doesn't have any good guy bases. And I think the awfulness of the city is a big part of why the desert wilderness plays such a big role in the setting. The cities are so bad that you will often find yourself out in the desert to escape from an even greater danger. You spend a lot of time in the wilderness because the cities aren't any better. And that's not just for the PCs, but for many NPCs as well.

As much as I like the Points of Light concept, I think here it does show a major flaw. If the towns are great and the wilderness terrible, it's just much too reasonable to always stick close to the towns and only go outside to fight back approaching threats and then hurry back inside.
So I think my initial idea of having the PCs be revered saviors who are famed as defenders of civilization might actually have been a mistake. And when you look at the fiction, particularly Wuxia, Jidaigeki, and various Conan stories, this really isn't the case. The good stories all happen when the heroes have lost their cushy positions as elite guardians. And when they come to a new place, they are not really welcome but are allowed to stay because the locals really desperately need their help.
For these heroes, staying at a village to help the local is a break in their normal life. The exception instead of the rule. Mostly their life is on the road and they are more a necessity in a fragmented society than its celebrated paragons.

A better reason to move on to another village than being no longer needed, would be to be no longer welcome. This would come from the players having made enemies in the village, and obviously this means that you have to have some local politics in the campaign as well. But as I mentioned, it's not only the PCs who sometimes have to leave a village behind. Lots of other people will have done so as well and made their homes in the wilderness. But they still have some connection to the villages and I think that's a very good environment for adventures to happen. Finding these people, fighting these people, and helping these people would probably take place mostly in the wilderness. And a big challenge with wilderness campaigns is to find things for the players to do in the wilderness. Occasionally the adventure will lead the party back to the village to talk with some people and learn new information, but then it's back to the wilds to act on that information.

Got to give this a lot more thought, but I think a good approach to making a wilderness sandbox might be to start with six or so villages separated by at least a full day's travel from each other, and then surround each of them with minor sites that are the homes of outcasts, hermits, and forest spirits who have some kind of relationship with the villagers. (And when possible, have some of those sites connected to two or more villages.)

Democratus
2016-05-11, 07:04 AM
Good points, Yora.

The Underdark is very similar to Athas in the ways you mentioned. It's a place full of horrors and danger only surpassed by what goes on within the few stable cities (Gracklestug, Menzoberranzan, etc.). Where it is different is that there is a better place adventurers can try to find - the surface.

hamlet
2016-05-11, 10:16 AM
One of the key things to remember if you're aiming for a slightly more realistic campaign - i.e., not the stereotypical "adventurers for hire!" type - is that "adventurer/wandering murder-hobo" is not actually a legitimate career choice according to the vast majority of society. PC's are very little more than wandering vagabonds, mercenaries, and wildly dangerous folks compared to the normal townfolk. Not only that, they frequently come absurdly heavily armed and armored, carrying more magic out of hand than most people will ever see again in their lives, and frequently default to slaying to solve problems. These are simply not people you want hanging around most of the time and even when you find yourself in need of them, it's probably good to very politely ask them to shuffle on if they would be so kind and hope that none of them hold a grudge.

If the pc's show up in town and there's a need for them, then they're likely to find something to do and might even bask in the gratitude of the town for a while. But after they're done, the town isn't going to want or be able to support them as empty mouths for very long without taking food out of the mouths of their own people. Your group might become very used to the experience of having the local mayor or whatever equivalent with a few armed folks along for "moral support" asking them politely to please get out and not murder anything on your way.

Yora
2016-05-11, 10:18 AM
Wow, guess what I found today: Turns out the Sandbox King Kevin Crawford did a fourth sandbox game in 2012. And Other Dust happens to be a post-apocalyptic sci-fi sandbox setting. This is actually incredibly close to just the kind of thing I had in mind. Small camps in the wilderness, threatened by monsters and the hostile environment outside, relying on local strongmen for protection, and with heroes poking around in ruins searching for fantastic devices.
At 18€ it's not cheap, but being one of Crawford's works you can be sure it will easily be worth that much. At 50 pages character rules (irrelevant for this thread) and 150 pages of sandbox tools it's pretty big and I am probably spending several days reading through it. But at first glance this looks perfect for a quick and easy reskin to tribal fantasy.

Edit: After a first partial readthrough it's not actually that great. The focus really is on villages and the material from Red Tide is much better suited to convert to a Bronze Age wilderness setting.


One of the key things to remember if you're aiming for a slightly more realistic campaign - i.e., not the stereotypical "adventurers for hire!" type - is that "adventurer/wandering murder-hobo" is not actually a legitimate career choice according to the vast majority of society. PC's are very little more than wandering vagabonds, mercenaries, and wildly dangerous folks compared to the normal townfolk. Not only that, they frequently come absurdly heavily armed and armored, carrying more magic out of hand than most people will ever see again in their lives, and frequently default to slaying to solve problems. These are simply not people you want hanging around most of the time and even when you find yourself in need of them, it's probably good to very politely ask them to shuffle on if they would be so kind and hope that none of them hold a grudge.

That's something I've been trying to find a good solution for for years. In an average D&D setting adventurers are not a problem since there is already a well maintained existing infrastructure of inns and stores used by traveling merchants. Adventurers can use these as well and pay for everything with some of their money.
In a world without country-wide economies and the supporting infrastructure, there are no inns and the only way for adventurers to find a way to stay is relying on hospitality. As it was actually done in most places during Antiquity and the Middle Ages. But to have a sandbox, it's necessary that the PCs stay around for a while and are not constantly moving from one place to the next. And to have them be welcome in a place for more than an immediate crisis, they need to be somewhat respectable people. Which is why I went with the wuxia approach instead of ronins. Greek heroes could be another example of that idea.
My first thought to have the players be local villagers who protect their own homes, but this makes it quite difficult to not have them stay in the same place all the time. Staying in a place for a while is good, but being stuck in a place doesn't work for a campaign about travel and discovery.

And aside from in-universe reasons, I find that it also helps somewhat with keeping the players in line and not engage in random mayhem. When their character description is "You are beloved heroes and people look up to you, and they let you live in their castles and villas because they are honored to have you as guests", players often like to latch on to that and have their characters act heroically. Instead of telling them that you hope they won't cause chaos, you tell them that you have no doubt that they will live up to the expectations that everyone has of their heroism. :smallamused:

Yora
2016-05-13, 09:44 AM
Sites of Wonder:

Don't forget that it is a magical and awesome world. Occasionally, the characters should be reminded of this as they come upon sights that are amazing to behold.

Floating mountains of rock, glowing crystal gardens, plains where lightning strikes up to the clouds, etc.

Another topic I want to come back to. How do you actually deal with dungeons and ruins in a sandbox?

People often say "throw three or four dungeons in there, you can take some off the shelf", but a dungeon that is just sitting where it is and doing nothing, and whose exploration by the PCs doesn't change anything but their XP count doesn't seem particularly interesting. It's fun for one-shot dungeon crawls (which is after all what most classic D&D dungeons were designed for, not campaign play), but the whole point of a sandbox is to be able shape the world through the actions the players take.
I think going to a place should change something for the rest of the campaign area, just as not investigating signs that something is going on in a place should do.

For the sake of this discussion, let's establish a brief terminology: A settlement is a place with a permanent population and that is connected to the traffic network and engages in trade or other interactions with other settlements. A camp is a populated place that is either temporary or hidden and usually has a very small population and no real economy. A site is any location that is not inhabited by intelligent people (though large sites might have camps somewhere inside them).

Ruins, dungeons, and caves fall all under sites. I think one way to have events at the sites and camps matter to the people in the settlements is to give each of them some kind of major (though not necessarily central) feature that has a direct connection to at least one settlement, or to another site or camp that is connected to a settlement. But in some way, the things that the players discover at a site should matter to someone somewhere else. Someone is either very happy that they went there, or very angry.

Something that probably always works is a kidnapped prisoner. By freeing the prisoner, or delivering news of his death, the players become aware of some kind of conflict that is going on in the area.

Another popular classic is the lair of a powerful monster or sorcerer. Until something is done about it, the monster or the sorcerer's minions will occasionally raid nearby settlements or attack travelers on the roads. It's not something the players have to respond to immediately, and if the locals don't know the location of the lair, the players will probably not be able to do anything about it until they have learned new information. These raiding parties can be added to the random encounter lists,perhaps with a 50/50 chance that the attack happens where the PCs currently are or in another place and news will reach them only later. In the later case, they might find that a settlement has some houses burned and an NPC or two might be dead.

hymer
2016-05-13, 10:17 AM
In the sandbox I'm (slowly) constructing at the moment, I work in two layers of adventure sites: Those with historical interest, and those with current. Often they will have both, or there will be separate adventure sites in one location.
For historical interest, I've established a timeline for the area, with the various cultures that have lived in the area. These sites tend to refer to each other by necessity. Any clues found in a ruined outpost from 500 years ago is likely to be about other places that existed back then, or had existed.
The other level is current and political. These sites also refer to each other, for alliance reasons (the bandit hideout is connected with the smuggler's den and the cult that convinced the bandits to come and raid this area in the first place) or for hostile reasons (the orcs built this outpost to keep a close watch on the nearby kobold warren, and the kobolds founded their secondary warren out of fear of the orcs invading the primary one).
The important thing is, I think, that nine out of ten or so of these sites has a connection to something else, preferably multiple things; and some of those things should be ones that the PCs are very likely to pick up on, some harder. So before I create the adventure sites (or go looking for them), I write down how things are connected in an area. And as I get new ideas, I keep going back to what I've already written, and add details, so the connections become more numerous and more obvious.
So I know I'll need a smuggler's den (they get rid of the stolen goods the bandits steal), a hidden cultist's temple (with connection to a major faction in a different area), and a bandit's lair (Ali Baba-style). I also know that the cultists are experimenting on the local wildlife, and change the random encounter tables to reflect this. And then I add hooks - soldiers from the border fort talking about finding tracks from smugglers going past, a bounty on the bandits, and the local druid seeking to assess the extent and source of the changes to the local wildlife. Once they start in on this complex, more will unfold, and what is hidden from the first, the cultists, will become revealed in time.

I don't know if that helps at all. :smallsmile:

Kaveman26
2016-05-13, 10:29 AM
Using your terminology and what you have already established...

The Shattered Pelt gnoll tribe has established a camp inside a site known as the Fountain of Youth. This once blossoming courtyard is now little more than rubble and ruin, save for the pristine white marble fountain that continues to flow and provide water with curative powers. They bottle this curative water and use it to pay tribute to the settlement of Skullthumper Hill Giants half a day's walk east. The Skullthumper's would love to take over the fountain themselves but they strong roots to their settlement and can't be bothered to move closer to the cow when the gnolls bring them the milk for free (a metaphor no actual cows involved)

Should the gnolls be attacked or displaced this will interrupt the tributes of water to the giants and cause turmoil in the region.

Interconnect a few different pieces so that actions create ripples and suddenly there is a non political story occurring.

Yora
2016-05-13, 12:35 PM
One idea I'll be definitly using in my next campaign is an old ruin that has a dried up pool with a hibernating aboleth in it. People settle in the ruins at the surface (probably will be refugees from a settlement that is abandoned during the campaign) and as they attempt to get the aqueduct working again the pool refills and the aboleth awakens. It then uses it's telepathic powers to turn some settlers into servants and make them work on a plan to flood the whole dungeon so that it can swim to an underground river and return home to the underworld.
If the players find it, it will offer them rewards if they help it escape.

a bandit's lair (Ali Baba-style).

Wow, having an extreme moment of inspiration. Bandits who have their hideout in a ruin with active and working magic enchantments. I've never considred this.
I've always thought of bandits, orcs, and all that as being completely without any magic stuff (except for a low-level wizard or shaman perhaps). But if the players can find these places than anyone else could too. And if there are working magic devices, why wouldn't someone make use of them?

Bandits with a secret magic door protecting their lair doesn't seem like a huge deal, but that makes them a lot more than regular bandits. Now they are the magically disappearing bandits. If a ruin has a working magic device, it really makes total sense that one of the inhabitants is using it instead of just having it gather dust for thousands of years.

Kaveman26
2016-05-13, 12:56 PM
I am seriously considering a harsh wilderness campaign, very badly have an itch for a low magic gritty wilderness trek

Yora
2016-05-13, 01:24 PM
What I really want to do is something with a strong presence of nature spirits and forest gods. Stuff you wouldn't get in the King's Forest right outside the city walls.

The challenge is that dryads and treants are not exactly social people with any kinds of ambitions. Having them be driving forces for adventures that are not about kicking out evil loggers has been quite difficult so far.

hymer
2016-05-13, 01:33 PM
What I really want to do is something with a strong presence of nature spirits and forest gods. Stuff you wouldn't get in the King's Forest right outside the city walls.

The challenge is that dryads and treants are not exactly social people with any kinds of ambitions. Having them be driving forces for adventures that are not about kicking out evil loggers has been quite difficult so far.

Well, don't go with the usual fluff, then. The beech dryads and the oak dryads are trying to form an alliance with the treants in order to drive the centaurs out of their forest, because they unclean flesh-beasts. The centaurs are trying to drive a wedge between the two kinds of dryads, and the treants are trying to get everyone to calm down and stop fighting - until one of them gets burned to death by unknown assailants, causing the treants to explode in anger, and drive every other sentient being out of their forest. *Shrug* Something like that.

Kaveman26
2016-05-13, 02:10 PM
What I really want to do is something with a strong presence of nature spirits and forest gods. Stuff you wouldn't get in the King's Forest right outside the city walls.

The challenge is that dryads and treants are not exactly social people with any kinds of ambitions. Having them be driving forces for adventures that are not about kicking out evil loggers has been quite difficult so far.



You were talking late stone age, early bronze age. The mere presence of metal could be cause for alarm and intervention. Doesn't have to be a full on natural revolt with treants pummeling the PC's, but it could definitely involve sprites and pixies stealing anything metallic or dryads refusing passage through their territory while they are in possession of metal. A bronze dagger could be something completely alien and unknown to a treant, and the thought of that edge biting into defenseless wood could leave them grumpy.

Or spin it as the woodland creatures and spirits REMEMBER what came about from metal and what it leads to. They could take it upon themselves to stamp out the "fire" of progress before it has a chance to destroy the world.

The presence of good spirits, implies the existence of evil spirits. A corrupted nymph or blighted treant holds some good RP possibilities and creative paths.

Yora
2016-05-14, 04:34 AM
Yesterday evening I got the idea that in my setting giants discovered the secrets of working iron (which effectively harms spirits, including themselves) and that only recently one of them shared the method with gnomes.

This could be an interesting template for wilderness sandboxes: The spirits have something that some mortals want really badly, but they are not sharing it until someone makes them a really good offer for a deal. Or someone manages to find a way to force them to talk. These are situations with a lot of possible outcomes that don't require any specific timetable to follow.

I also found this quote from Rob Conley (who by his own words had a hand in establishing sandbox as a technical term), which should be worth to ponder:

Also I realized that for me, I haven't run for a long time the campaign where the player just showed up somewhere and start out by looking at the tavern want ads. Very early on I was influenced by a section in the original Harn Folio about the pre-game. This was a page of advice, with tables, where N. Robin Crossby tells you to sit down with the players, figure out where they came from (rolled on the charts), who their family are (more charts), and then run a little one on one session where the two of you figure how the character came to be an adventurer.

It all came together for me and I realize that the main reason these campaigns failed is that players didn't have context. And without context you can't make meaningful choices, that all you do is take a dart and let it land on the hex map. And hope that something interesting comes up.

So the key to fixing this issue is to give the players context right from the beginning of the game. The best way to do that is to take N. Robin Crossby's advice and run a one on one pre-game with each player in the campaign where the two of you work out together the character's background. Then when the campaign starts and they look at what beyond the gate of Castle Blackmarsh they have an idea of what going on, and something interesting things to do.

Kol Korran
2016-05-16, 01:45 AM
I am designing my own campaign (With the campaign log. The internet ate up the last things I wrote... Note to self: Save often!) but I've been pondering some of the same issues. I've long had an interest in spirit/ fey/ mythical kind of creatures, and may have an idea or two.

I often connect spirits less to specific "type/ race/ species" of creatures, but rather a particular concept/ theme/ region/ time... I look upon major spirits as concepts/ ideas partly given form. Representations of such themes, but not exactly "complete" in terms of the full mortal experience, and somehat alien. As such, most such "Spirits of the land" are more often than not unique creatures (Or at least they belong to very small group), and are also part mystery.

I'll try and present some examples from my intended campaign (I'll get to that later) and from a Shadowrun game, where I decided to personify some spirits he'll be summoning.

1. The river/ stream/ water body spirit:
A spirit that resides in this body of water. It can manifest (Create a sort of watery body to interact with) quite fast nearly anywhere in the body of water (Even a river that can spread many miles). It's nature and personality may fit the body of water (Say in fast running river it may be wilder, more aggressive, in a calm lake it can be serene, wise), and it can have many roles: Perhaps it demands payment/ tribute/ ritual/ sacrifice in order to allow passage, perhaps it protects a region (Not enabling the undead/ abominations to cross), Perhaps it can control when it dries, when it floods, and more... a lot of adventures can tie to it, whether to appease it, control it, defeat it, help it, learn from it (Perhaps a source of sources power/ magic?/ secrets?) and more...

2. The hunter/ render: An especially savage spirit creature, an abnormally strong and cunning beast, or a magical creature, guards and hunts a specific region. The emphasis here is about it being a far more ruthless, dangerous and persistent predator, yet one that can be dealt with by spiritual/ ritual means. It can guard a holy/ unholy site, it can make for an obstacle in a certain region toeither move around, or risk going through it's territory, it can be tied to a spefic religion/ belief/ time ("Every year, the red black beast hunts for 3 moons, stay in your homes/ sacrifice for it to spare you/ worship deity X"), It can be triggered by specific events ("Do not cross the X/ If you stay in the ancients grave yard after dark"), It can be the pet of a stronger being, (If you anger the hags, they will unleash it on you!"), it can be a dangerous ally, a dangerous enemy, and more...

3. The trickster: Yes, there are sprites, and pixies and such, but I'm talking something on a grander scale, with a more mythic feel to it. From a spirit that simply wishes to wrek chaos, to one who seeks to undo specific people/ lineage/ family/ tribe, to one who wishes to accomplish a specific end, or one who teaches by trickery. I've made a few versions of a spirit called "Chi- Ga- Si", one for a specific adventure, and another as a mentor spirit for my SR trickster mage:
- Chi- Ga- SI garden (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276177-Help-designing-the-deadly-mischevious-garden-of-the-trickster-Chi-ga-si!&highlight=Chi+Ga+Si) and the adventure it was planned for (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14715372&postcount=20)(Really not necessary)

Trickster Mentor Spirit- Chi-Ga-Si!
The Middle Man's mentor spirit, teacher of magic, and the one who introduced him to the Spirits of The Court. Chi-Ga-Si acts as a trickster, teacher, competitor, and joker. It is a consummate shape shifter, (Though his color schemes are of and its motivations are unknown, except for a great delight in mischief, whether on Middle Man's enemies, friends, or the Middle Man himself).

Chi-Ga-Si's Influence: Often when Chi GA Si appears, he appears with some sort of a gambling game, whose purpose is to outwit the opponent, often without knowing all the rules, or some other handicaps. This is his way of teaching, (Or so the Middle Man thinks). It is not patient teacher though, and he may try to force The Middleman to trick others, overriding the mage's own sensibilities.

A few facts/ rumors about the mysterious mentor:
1. It, or very similar descriptions, are mentioned in many places in history, as a great spirit of mischief and trickery. It first appeared in Chinese and Indian myths, later in Dark Ages Europe, but is also mentioned in the myths of Amerindians. Mentions of it can be found in ancient times, as old as about -2,000 B.C, yet they seem sporadic at best, every few hundred years…
2. Chi-Ga-Si rarely reveals itself, and can choose to be perceived by specific individuals, while remaining utterly undetected by others. This at times led to the assumption that those who see it, and converse with it, are either mad men, prophetic, blessed, cursed, or all at once. (In game terms, it means the spirit can appear to The Middle Man, but others can't perceive it).
3. Chi-Ga-Si is a consummate shapeshifter, yet favors shapes of cultural clever or trickster manifestations. His color schemes seem to favor black, red, blue and purple.
4. A strange assertion that seems to repeat itself is that Chi-Ga-Si never lies. He always tells the truth, and alternates between cryptic riddles, and blunt harsh truths.
5. Chi-Ga-Si loves games, bets and dares, and many that deal with it find themselves as part of a game, unknown to them. It almost always accept a challenge, but almost always seems to cheat, yet within the rules of the game. It rarely loses, though it had happened.
6. Nearly at all times, it's appearance in this world, is followed by some great chaos and mayhem.

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk295/meir_8/Chi-Ga-Sis%20many%20faces_zpswmhtrgdy.png
(Inspiration from Coyote from the Gunnerkrieg Court webcomic, The Cheshire cat, and Aku from Samurai Jack)


3. Red before the storm:
This is a sort of air spirit, mostly an autumn spirit, whose winds is usually accompanied by red, yellow and orange folliage. It is usually calm, serene, appreciates beauty and aesthetics, but it is also dangerous, as when it is angered it either turns into a great storm, or summons one (Depending on how you want to play it), one of red angry clouds, winds and lightning. i see it as a more benevolent spirit, but one which can get easily offended, and has strange, not well understood sensibilities. As such it can be an interesting ally/ teacher/ secrets dispenser, but one that you need to be also weary of how you interact with. She can be tied to natural places, places of great beauty or spirituality, or places where the wind often goes through (High peaks, canyon and more)

4. Mr Black:
It is based upon a very intriguing character one of my players played a long time ago. The spirit looks like a humanoid from an old, but gone culture (perhaps one who's ruins still remain). It's outlook is closer to the mortal outlook, than that of more "natural spirits", but it's mood is difficult. It espouses the values and lessons on the old culture (In my game- Self discipline, Control, efficiency, class and style), but as with Red before the Storm, he too can grow violent and angry. This spirit is more cunning, subtle, yet may be vindictive. Again, it can be played many ways, with sinister and secret goals (Restore some of what once was, vindicate itself upon those who destroyed it, vengence against other spirits, spreading the teachings of the old ways, and more).

5. King Harry:
An obese looking, disgusting floating bag of air, claiming to be the benevolent, highly beloved and popular king of some old place/ people... He is a consumer, and displays decadence and hunger, seeming quite simple in mind, but can hide deep cunning (A bit like the wizards of the Discworld? :smallwink:) He can seek more followers, adoration, and to feed in never sated hunger. He can know many secrets, guard places, and offer protection.

6. Caw of the Murder:
A strange spirit, either appearing s an abnormally large and somewhat alein crow (More eyes? talons? Strange colors?), a Murder (Flock of crows), or some other symbolism of crows. A spirit of opportunity, theft, deception, cleverness, hunger and possibly cruelty or wisdom (Depending on how you play it). Due to it's themes, it is VERY ripe for conflict and meyham, and can suit many plots.

7. From the old compendium:
If I remember correctly, you can probably use some of the monsters in the old monsters compendium I've started a long time ago (Under my extended signature, a link in my signature). There are some encounters/ adventure/ campaign ideas for many under the "In D&D table near you!" section. Out of the top of my head, particulrily fitting critters might be the hags, the gibbering mouthers, the stone giants and gargoyles can be easily adapted for some sort of stone/ earth spirits, serpent lords... I think the Aranea and Barghest might fit as well, though they might require more adjustments, though their core ideas may suit well.

Good luck to you!

hamlet
2016-05-16, 10:30 AM
If you want to do nature spirits, maybe try not tying them to existing monsters, since all players pretty much know the stats already, and just have the spirits be "PLOT!"

Really.

Essentially, anything that the players might interact with amounts to almost an avatar rather than any tangible monster and they can talk to it, so to speak (though it will certainly have a frame of reference alien to that of fleshy talky apes), and it might form some sort of bond with them.

Not a god, really, but a manifestation of the collective will of a natural area. A Demi-Urge.

Yora
2016-05-16, 02:16 PM
My monster document has only some "standard minion" creatures in the section for spirits. Elementals, spriggans, oni, and so on. The forest gods and spirits of the land really need to be tailored to their domain and their likely role in an adventure.

In a more general context, how do you feel about adding one or two moderate negadungeons to a non-horror sandbox? Places that hold no great treasures and have nothing to accomplish, and as you go deeper and deeper, all you will find is death and madness? Stuff like Tomb of Horrors and The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, or Death Frost Doom and perhaps the Deep Carbon Observatory?
I would never consider giving them to players in a regular campaign and tell them they should go explore them. But in a sandbox with absolutely no nudging that they should enter these places? With the only reason to go through the gate being that the players are curious what might be behind it?
If you make it in a way that the threat gradually increases as you get deeper in, and avoid situations in which all characters can be wiped out simultaneously, there shouldn't be anything to stop them to turn around and leave, and never come back. I think that could be really damn cool. If it goes really well, the players might come back with several ox carts full of black powder to make sure nothing will ever pass through that gate again. :smallbiggrin:

Basically a Moria scenario. The dwarves dug too deep and the whole place was sealed off forever.

hymer
2016-05-16, 02:44 PM
I'd have no problem with that (one or two of a hundred sites) as a player (well, I might get annoyed at the kind of random, unpropmted death ToH deals out before you even get inside the actual dungeon). But with no story and no loot, I likely wouldn't go there once I knew this was the case. I'd probably be saying we could go back to the place if ever we found a reason to do so. So it might be a lot of wasted effort, unless of course you use a dungeon you have on hand anyway, as you said.
Another danger is getting annoyed/frustrated if you think there must be something really great in there (it's likely the hardest dungeon you've seen so far, after all), and there's just more monsters, and no story or treasure. So you may want to say something out of the game if you sense this is going to happen.

Yora
2016-05-17, 01:24 PM
Different topic: Sandboxes seem to be campaigns especially well suited to having various factions.

But in a wilderness setting, what kinds of factions would work best?

The easy ones that I've already come up with are warlords and cult leaders (plus their respective minions). On a very local scale, you can have confederations, clans, and families, but these usually are not very destinctive or evocative (unless lead by a warlord or cult leader). There's thousands of them throughout the whole world and usually they are all very much the same, wanting to protect their people and secure enough land for farming.

For my setting I got druids, sorcerers, and worshipers of the Old Ones, as well as a socialist warrior cult based around fueling the inner fire, and a mystical race of serpentmen. Just for the purpose of a single sandbox campaign this would be enough. I could start a campaign with these right now and it should be great.
But I also like to make the world feel like it extends well beyond the edges of the map, with many different regions and various important and famous power groups.

Any idea what might also work? Pirates perhaps?

hymer
2016-05-17, 02:05 PM
I vaguely remember a Japanese feudal scenario for Civ 3 (I think), in which you needed to reasearch a Portuguese trade connection to get gunpowder units.
Is it possible that either the tin or the copper for bronze is very hard to come by locally, and to be able to trade in that you have to cultivate a relationship with a faction or people that can travel an ocean or pass underneath a mountain?
How about a group that recently (in historic terms anyway) arrived from elsewhere, because their beautiful (as they see it now) ancient homeland was destroyed or overrrun? Their stories of distant lands could be told by every bard, even though they only partially understand what they're talking about.
Just some thoughts.

sktarq
2016-05-17, 03:22 PM
Factions:

Various Druid factions. Children of the moon; demmihuman as predator; masters of the cycles of the seasons, life, and stars; speakers for the hidden world (of both spirits and hidden knowledge like medicine), geomancers and readers/manipulators of the land, bear brothers, oak judges, etc. And all these circles could challenge each other for dominance hiding their battles in wild shape forms etc

Dragon worshipers-who live by emulating them (at least doing so gains internal status) - thus raiding, hoarding, and sorcery are common drivers within the faction

Nomadic tribes (possible pastoralists) who have very different cultural norms (say bride capture to get horror stories going) - being able to bribe or direct them could be significant to adventures.

You make cultists interesting by making the cults interesting-drugs, various forms of sacrifice, collecting prereqs for the sacrifice, tons of options really. And focus on ideas over personality

Yora
2016-05-17, 04:01 PM
Is it possible that either the tin or the copper for bronze is very hard to come by locally, and to be able to trade in that you have to cultivate a relationship with a faction or people that can travel an ocean or pass underneath a mountain?
How about a group that recently (in historic terms anyway) arrived from elsewhere, because their beautiful (as they see it now) ancient homeland was destroyed or overrrun? Their stories of distant lands could be told by every bard, even though they only partially understand what they're talking about.

Good idea. In my setting a race of gnomes has a complete monopoly in smelting iron, which they only learned from a Prometeus-like giant. And weapons grade iron is extremely valuable for its ability to hurt spirits. (You can also make nails, pots, and tools you can sell for almost as much as bronze ones but using a much cheaper raw material, but that's neither cool nor heroic.) Of course, not their entire civilization would be based around the tiny iron industry. Instead it would be in the hands of a small exclusive group who guard their trade secret agressively. And who are incredibly wealthy and powerful, of course.
To give them a Bronze Age feel, I wouldn't call them the Steel Producers Guild, but rather the Black Brotherhood or the Fraternity of Iron. And they aren't simply craftsmen. They are initiates of the mysteries of iron, controling the elemental essences of earth and fire who create weapons that are effectively magic. In a world ruled by spirits, this probably would make them a lot of supernatural enemies. They have stolen a secret from the gods and are using it to fight them. Of course, they also have mortal enemies who might want to steal their secrets from them, but have no idea about the dangerous forces they would be dealing with.

This could be a really cool faction.
Only shortcomming I have now are motives that would get them to be outside in the wilds. The big thing that makes iron such a cheap raw material is that it's found in lots of places. With small amounts of production it's unlikely they would be hunting for locations for new mines. However, they could very well have frequent need for people with the skills to deal with earth and fire elementals and all kinds of other critters that might come up from below.
Another thing to get them involved in adventures is to have other factions be interested in buying or stealing large amounts of iron from them. A big shipment intended for export to a distant buyer would be like a caravan loaded with gold. And need to be just as much protected, and if possible kepts secret.

I don't see them as a major faction of movers and shakers, unless the campaign is set in the region right outside their main bases. But as a secondary faction for two or three quests, they could be pretty cool. I had them very vaguely on the radar, but not considered that they might be important in the greater picture of things. (It also helps to get the gnomes more involved in things. I had no real idea how to make them important.)

Democratus
2016-05-18, 07:14 AM
Great ideas, Yora.

One thing that might bring an Iron-obsessed organization out into the wild: a meteorite.

Star Iron might just have unique properties worth an expedition and remote mining site.

Yora
2016-05-20, 12:08 PM
Can we learn anything from the level design of Shadow of the Colossus that can be translated to RPGs? One of the unique elements of the game is the pacing, which has you travelling through a wide open landscape in silence. When running and adventure there isn't really a flow of time, just a chain of events that happen immediately after the previous ones. So you can't create a feeling for space by how long it takes to move through it. And of course your description of the sights can't use cool camera tricks.
And in a party you're with lots of people, not alone with a horse.

But looking just at the architecture, I think there are a couple of great ideas that I have not really seen used in dungeons and adventures.

One thing that many of the locations in SotC have in common is that you can't see how big they are from the outside. Sometimes there's just a simple gate in a cliff face or a small stone shrine with stairs leading into the ground through which you get intot tunnels that can lead to huge underground chambers or valleys enclosed by cliff walls on all sides.
I think in a wilderness sandbox this could be a really cool way to design dungeons. The players are moving across hexes or follow an old road or small river, and they are told they spot some broken stairs leading up to an overcrown doorway carved into a hill. They might shrug an continue on their way, or they might decide to give it a quick look. And they have no clue whether there are only 4 rooms beyond the entrance or 400. It might even look like it's just a small abandoned guardpost until they discover the mechanism that opens the inner gate to the main part of the dungeon. Or just to a small mountain path that goes on for a while before emerging on a huge ruined city.

Another thing that dungeons and ruins almost always ignore is height. In a common dungeons there are distinct levels connected by stairs. Outdoor locations are almost always entirely on the ground. But the level design of SotC is very three dimensional, with incredibly huge bridges, paths on the sides of cliffs, and many massive sinkholes. In the game the ruins are all empty, but imagine encountering enemies in such environment. You can see them, they can see you, and you're close enough for shouting and shoting arrows, but there's no way to get either up or down nearby.
The roof of a palace can be an area of the ruin just as the courtyard. But would be a much cooler location for a fight. Towers are common as dungeons, but usually they stand alone and don't really have any windows or balconies. From a tower inside a ruined city you could see a great amount of the area and what's going on there. You can see griffons and wyverns flying to their nests, smoke and flames from camps in the distance, and so on.
An outdoor ruin can be much more than a dungeon without a roof.

Though many of the ideas apply to indoor dungeons as well. If you have really big caverns or huge underground halls, there's also plenty of opportunity to work with multiple different levels that have line of sight. Moria from the Lord of the Rings movies has some ideas, but could have gone a lot further. There's been some cool ideas for drow cities, but in practice I've always seen them effectively behave like normal flat surface towns. (Except the one time they put explosive charges in the base of a stalactite and have it fall onto the temple on the cave floor below.)

I also like many of the flooded areas. One is an almost entirely submerged city with only the upper parts of towers rising over the surface, and which is home to a giant bird monster.

Mr. Mask
2016-05-20, 12:50 PM
Closest I can think of is have a book of beautiful illustrations for travel between areas. Have the party flip through illustrations, gradually, until they get to the next plot point. You could even have hidden elements in the pictures, which if spotted, give them a bonus.

Yora
2016-05-20, 01:50 PM
If you have a tablet computer, you can also easily show them a photo by handing it around. A lot more convenient than trying to print them at reasonable quality, especially when you're using them often.

Purely by coincidence I found this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ9_RJ2EPo0) on the level design of the Dark Souls series. The spiraling tower with optional side areas template seems like something that could work quite well for sandbox level design as well.

NRSASD
2016-05-23, 08:40 AM
So, a couple of ideas about your iron producing brotherhood:

* Instead of iron ore, which is pretty ubiquitous in reality, use some of the more exotic forms. Ironsand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironsand) or bog iron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron) are two alternative sources of iron that are much more localized to specific areas. This gives the brotherhood some reasons to be wandering in the wilderness, where they can encounter the party. They might hire the party on for protection as they venture into the deepest, darkest swamps for their sacred, iron generating rituals, or they might react very negatively to people interfering with their business.

* In the Greek-Roman era, magic was considered an intrinsic part of everyday life. When founding a city, you surveyed the site and performed animal sacrifices to confirm that the gods were happy with your choice. Bandaging a wound required ritually purifying the wound through washing, applying honey as a disinfectant, and wrapping it in prayer-covered fabric. Since iron working in this setting is a rather more arcane process than copper or bronze working, the brotherhood may view itself as a religion, not as metalworkers. They aren't forging metal so much as shaping elemental forces of earth and fire, from their own point of view.

* Since the brotherhood has figured out how to create this super metal by bending the very spirits to their will, they could easily be an antagonistic faction. Nature is afraid of them, and makes its fear known by ruining the lives of the villages nearby. Crops die, prey migrations change routes to avoid them, dogs cower in the brotherhood's presence, etc.