Simple Bloodlines Fix

[gooddragon1]

Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) in Unearthed Arcana have the problem of dropping class levels for sometimes insufficient benefits. I think I've seen some proposed fixes to them before. Here's my simple two-part fix:

1> Bloodline levels grant full Base Attack Bonus (as in the ones you take at 3, 6, and/or 12).
2> If you get a feat from your bloodline that you already have, drop the duplicate and you may take a bonus feat whenever you feel like it that you meet the prerequisites for when you choose to use it (but once it's set, it's set (barring retraining if that's allowed I guess)).

The first one is for non-casters mainly. The second one is for casters going for a specific feat build and also for non-casters. It'd be like dropping a caster level to pick up a bonus feat that you wouldn't qualify for due to the levels you'd need for some reason. Maybe you need power attack. Maybe you need two feats at level 18 to make your build work.

In epic levels it might be more useful to casters given that you can get extra epic feats and not worry so much about dropping spell levels. I'm not actually sure how much of a power up this is. Maybe it's too much, but it's really simple.

[Sword-Geass]

Part of the problem with bloodlines is the fact that it's unsure if they count towards ECL or don't. The first thing to "fix" them would be answering if they are like some kind of LA (in which case your fix wouldn't help them, as they would be terrible, with the exception of advancing classes a la Legacy champion) or if they work more in line of Necropolitan (in which case you pay a level for the benefits, but you still count as your actual level, and not your levels + bloodlines leves). Also to keep in mind is that if the second read is used, they are already good enough, and shouldn't be tweaked with your first proposal, as it could end with character with 23 BAB at level 20.

Also, bloodlines are, regardless of the reading, useful by themselves, when you wan't to advance class features beyond the normal posibilities, like advancing HF Warlock, or War Weaver. And they are double good at this if you also take levels in Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion, as bloodlines advance the features of ALL classes.

Ex: A Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 3 with a mayor bloodline has an Eldricht Blast of a Warlock 12 (9 from actual levels + 3 from bloodlines) and a Hellfire Blast of a Hellfire Warlock 11 (3 from actual levels + 3 from bloodlines advancing HF Warlock, + 2 form Uncanny Trickster and +3 from bloodlines advancing UT). It's rather futile to say that balance flew through the window a long time ago.

TLDR: If bloodlines count towards ECL your fix may make them useful for some mundane classes, if they don't your first fix can't be aplied.
Also, the second one sounds pretty reasonable, and I would thought that that's what everyone would do given the case of overlapping feats.

[gooddragon1]

Part of the problem with bloodlines is the fact that it's unsure if they count towards ECL or don't. The first thing to "fix" them would be answering if they are like some kind of LA (in which case your fix wouldn't help them, as they would be terrible, with the exception of advancing classes a la Legacy champion) or if they work more in line of Necropolitan (in which case you pay a level for the benefits, but you still count as your actual level, and not your levels + bloodlines leves). Also to keep in mind is that if the second read is used, they are already good enough, and shouldn't be tweaked with your first proposal, as it could end with character with 23 BAB at level 20.

Also, bloodlines are, regardless of the reading, useful by themselves, when you wan't to advance class features beyond the normal posibilities, like advancing HF Warlock, or War Weaver. And they are double good at this if you also take levels in Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion, as bloodlines advance the features of ALL classes.

Ex: A Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 3 with a mayor bloodline has an Eldricht Blast of a Warlock 12 (9 from actual levels + 3 from bloodlines) and a Hellfire Blast of a Hellfire Warlock 11 (3 from actual levels + 3 from bloodlines advancing HF Warlock, + 2 form Uncanny Trickster and +3 from bloodlines advancing UT). It's rather futile to say that balance flew through the window a long time ago.

TLDR: If bloodlines count towards ECL your fix may make them useful for some mundane classes, if they don't your first fix can't be aplied.
Also, the second one sounds pretty reasonable, and I would thought that that's what everyone would do given the case of overlapping feats.

It's the first one (see the bolded text).


Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).


A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.


Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.


If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

For example, a 2nd-level sorcerer with a major bloodline takes a bloodline level when earns enough XP to advance in level. He is treated as a 3rd-level spellcaster for the purpose of spell durations, caster level checks, and so forth. But he doesn't gain a 3rd-level sorcerer's spells per day or spells known.

Similarly, the stunning attacks of a 3rd-level monk with one bloodline level have a save DC equal to 12 (10 + one-half class level) plus her Wisdom modifier, since the bloodline level is treated as if it were a monk class level when calculating the save DC. A 3rd-level monk/3rd-level sorcerer with two bloodline levels would be treated as a 5th-level spellcaster and a 5th-level monk for determining level-based abilities.

So it's a class level that advances a few things but not all that much. A spellcaster will lose out on higher level spell slots, but their duration based spell will not take a hit.

Sorcerer 17/Bloodline 3 is a 20th level character for XP requirement purposes. (He's also missing out on 9th level spell slots)

I felt that mundanes should be able to have nice things. That's why the BAB was added back in. Characters still lose out on durability and a few other things, but they can pick up nice stuff from the bloodline in exchange and can perhaps take two high level feats where ordinarily they'd only be able to pick one or the other by virtue of only getting 1 feat at 18th level or something. Nowhere in the rules (that I'm aware of) does it provide for anything happening when a character somehow gets a feat twice (say you took improved unarmed strike as a fighter and then you took a level in monk and got it as a bonus feat, nothing happens).

[KillingAScarab]

I think I've seen some proposed fixes to them before. Here's my simple two-part fix:

1> Bloodline levels grant full Base Attack Bonus (as in the ones you take at 3, 6, and/or 12).
2> If you get a feat from your bloodline that you already have, drop the duplicate and you may take a bonus feat whenever you feel like it that you meet the prerequisites for when you choose to use it (but once it's set, it's set (barring retraining if that's allowed I guess)).

The first one is for non-casters mainly. The second one is for casters going for a specific feat build and also for non-casters. It'd be like dropping a caster level to pick up a bonus feat that you wouldn't qualify for due to the levels you'd need for some reason. Maybe you need power attack. Maybe you need two feats at level 18 to make your build work.

In epic levels it might be more useful to casters given that you can get extra epic feats and not worry so much about dropping spell levels. I'm not actually sure how much of a power up this is. Maybe it's too much, but it's really simple.Regarding part two, Unearthed Arcana has bloodlines in which you do not gain feats. Doppleganger gives a skill bonus, two spell-like abilities, an attribute increase and a circumstantial bonus (affinity).


Bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) in Unearthed Arcana have the problem of dropping class levels for sometimes insufficient benefits.While I have not played a character which utilized bloodlines, I think I would prefer Welknair's solution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline&p=11487854#post11487854): make bloodlines with sufficient benefits. Compare the red dragon bloodline to Welknair's red dragon descendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline&p=11487854#post11487854) bloodline. Instead of power attack at 14th level you gain fireball as a 1/day SLA. If you want something more mundane, there's the hero born (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?203394-3-5e-Bloodline-Hero-Born-%28PEACH%29), which could gain fighter bonus feats. You can also make bloodlines flexible enough to be combined as with mudblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204147-3-5e-Bloodline-So-I-heard-you-liked-Bloodlines-%28PEACH%29&p=11257934#post11257934). Or unique enough that they can work with other mechanics, as emergent atrocity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207247-3-5e-Bloodline-Emergent-Atrocity-%28PEACH%29&p=11410280#post11410280) uses grafts.

[ShurikVch]

bloodlines advance the features of ALL classesDoes it include Barbarian's Rage?

[gooddragon1]

Regarding part two, Unearthed Arcana has bloodlines in which you do not gain feats. Doppleganger gives a skill bonus, two spell-like abilities, an attribute increase and a circumstantial bonus (affinity).

While I have not played a character which utilized bloodlines, I think I would prefer Welknair's solution (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline&p=11487854#post11487854): make bloodlines with sufficient benefits. Compare the red dragon bloodline to Welknair's red dragon descendant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline&p=11487854#post11487854) bloodline. Instead of power attack at 14th level you gain fireball as a 1/day SLA. If you want something more mundane, there's the hero born (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?203394-3-5e-Bloodline-Hero-Born-%28PEACH%29), which could gain fighter bonus feats. You can also make bloodlines flexible enough to be combined as with mudblood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?204147-3-5e-Bloodline-So-I-heard-you-liked-Bloodlines-%28PEACH%29&p=11257934#post11257934). Or unique enough that they can work with other mechanics, as emergent atrocity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207247-3-5e-Bloodline-Emergent-Atrocity-%28PEACH%29&p=11410280#post11410280) uses grafts.

This is a simple fix. More complicated ones certainly have uses. However, this one is very simple to implement.

[Swaoeaeieu]

there is no such thing as simple bloodlines. the way the rules are written on them it is impossible to come to a consensus on what they do, attempt to do or even what they are supposed to do. I admire that you try to fix them, but i dont think you can clear up the language in that trainwreck of a rule.

but at least, that is what i gathered from all the other threads on bloodlines

[KillingAScarab]

there is no such thing as simple bloodlines. the way the rules are written on them it is impossible to come to a consensus on what they do, attempt to do or even what they are supposed to do. I admire that you try to fix them, but i dont think you can clear up the language in that trainwreck of a rule.

but at least, that is what i gathered from all the other threads on bloodlinesThen you missed Welknair's Bloodline Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?208703-3-5e-Bloodline-Guide-What-in-the-Nine-Hells-is-a-Bloodline&p=11487854#post11487854).

[Sword-Geass]

I have just thought something. Most PrC that advance spellcasting say something along the lines of "at each level", and spellcasting is listed under class features, which bloodlines advance... So PrC would give 4 levels of spellcasting at it's first one... Dip every spellcasting prc you can with a mayor bloodline and you'll get:
5 levels of the true class (general minimum)
3 " dead" bloodlines leves (I read bloodlines as not counting towards ECL, but this is so broken that I'd rather be conservative)
12 levels in 12 diferent PrC that advance spellcasting at each level. All of these count as 4 levels

Total 53 levels of spells known levels, with 56 caster level at 20. Beholder mage, eat. your. heart. out. (If BL don't count toward ECL you get up to 65 and 68).
Also, lvl9 spells at ECL 11.

Note: bloodlines don't advance spellcasting of base classes, as is stated in UA. But prc are advanced by RAW as they advancing a casting base class is a class feature which BL advance.

[KillingAScarab]

3 " dead" bloodlines leves (I read bloodlines as not counting towards ECL, but this is so broken that I'd rather be conservative)Bloodline levels count toward ECL.


Bloodline

Skill points at each level: None. (Not even Int. None.)
Class Skills: None
Hit Dice: d0 (Do not add Con to health for this level. This still counts as an HD though.)



Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special


1st

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"


2nd

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"


3rd

+0

+0

+0

+0
"I'm Really a Level!"



"I'm Really a Level!": Levels in Bloodline stack with levels in all other class for the purpose of determining level-dependent effects, such as the amount of damage dealt by a Paladin's Smite or the Caster Level of a Wizard's spells. As this is still a level, it counts normally towards the acquisition of feats and ability score boosts as well as maximum skill ranks.


See, it's not just an LA. It's like a Dire LA. Anywho... This is the most succinct explanation of bloodline levels of which I am aware.

I don't know how to tackle your attempt to fold time and space in upon itself to somehow gain spells known in addition to far too many increases to caster level.