Optimal non-minion Necro

[Endless Query]

As I've tossed up in another thread, been trying to put together a life-steal-y negative level inflicting-y sort of character. Hasn't gone super well, not a ton of class ability/consistently usable stuff to work there. Best suggestion I've gotten, and what I'm more or less going to end up working with, is neeecrooo, all of the Necro. Ability damage early or w/e, keep in theme, use that Vampiric Touch, get ye spectral hand, play bad touch (arcane caster or something) here. But honestly, I don't know a thing about making a GOOD, er, arcane debuffer (pretty sure it'd have to be Arcane, so many of the spells just aren't on well, other lists, and even with Domains or whatever you can't get everything. Or Spectral Hand for that matter which seems awfffullly too good for this sort of thing to miss).

So, I guess the questions are, 1) What's the class? In my head Arcanist seems like it might be the best choice, but I don't know Arcanists that well, so I'm probably wrong. Sin Necro Wizard? Bonus spells flying everywhere?

2) What else is important for me to be grabbing? Any way to get eternal or free spectral hands? Is that even the, er, right tree to be barking up?

3) What am I forgetting? (lots of stuff, I'm sure).

Also, I know there are various guidebooks out there, but everything for necromancy is usually about pet optimization, and Cleric "bad touch" stuff generally just doesn't have the same sort of effect/theme so far as I can tell, so I just haven't for a good guide for this sort of set up. If there is one you can just boot me there and save yourself the effort =P

[Geddy2112]

Hmm, a no reanimation necromancer is very interesting from a fluff and mechanic perspective. A lot of very powerful spells are in the necromancy school, and even without reanimation you still get the best stuff.

Instead of spectral hand, you can use a familiar to get touch spells delivered at 3rd level, so you need to be an arcanist, wizard, a sorcerer with a familiar friendly bloodline, or use eldritch heritage. Ideally your familiar can fly 60ft/round as they can fly 30 there and 30 back, delivering the touch as a free action. Of course, you will want spell focus(necromancy)

Good necromancy spells that are not undead creating:
0-touch of fatigue
1-Chill touch, ray of enfeeblement
2-blindness/deafness, false life, spectral hand, stricken heart
3-vampiric touch, aura of cannibalism(on a familiar)
4-bestow curse, enervation, fear
5-waves of fatigue, suffocation, magic jar
6-banshee blast, eyebite(but both are kinda meh)
7-umbral strike, waves of exhaustion, finger of death.
8-horrid wilting, clone
9-astral projection, energy drain, mass suffocation

For class, I second arcanist, although necromancy wizard is not bad. Consider the life subschool to get some more utility out of buffing and to take damage for party members on your temp HP(vampiric touch, false life). A really fun alternative is the aberrant bloodline sorcerer. You can get a familiar via the feat aberrant tumor, and you get increases to the reach of your touch spells starting at third level, along with some other fun goodies. None of those are really wrong, as they get access to all of the other good arcane spells that are not necromancy(haste, fly).

You might want the spell perfection feat for vampiric touch. Quicken, empower and intensified are all really good.

[Endless Query]

I've never been sure about using familiars to deliver touch spells, I've always felt like, mnnh... It's a good way to end up with a murdered familiar? Or is there some trick to that I'm not aware of?

[Geddy2112]

Remember your familiar can benefit from defensive spells just as well as the caster can. Spells that have a target of "personal" can be cast on the familiar as a touch spell to the familiar.
Also, look into an improved familiar that has natural things like DR, SR, natural invisibility, and other things like that.

However, at low levels spectral hand is your best bet to deliver touch spells. You can look into reach spell metamagic for higher levels, as it will make a touch spell close ranged (25ft+5ft per 2 levels) for just +1 level if you don't want to risk your familiar.

[Endless Query]

Ah, yes, right. Great now I have to diversify my spells between keeping my familiar alive and making my enemies suffer. Whose idea was that? =P

Oh, though, actually, speaking of Arcane Schools, Bloodlines and the like, I know you can Archetype those in as an Arcanist, though it conflicts with Eldritch Font. On some level, I feel like being specialized in a subsection of spells Font's bonus slots and bonus, er, 1 ish use of Potent Magic per combat (... Ish), especially with "Have +2 save DC, nah, don't worry, arcane pool, I can take this" For all that fatigue is kiiinda annoying I Feel like you can probably take that one on the chin a lot? Or am I sadly mistaken here?

Oh, also, Extra Reservoir: That's +3 to your start of day and +3 to your cap at the same time? I was originally going to go see if I could find some way to snag some just spare floating spell slots or something to cannibalize, but as I doubt I could find them over level 3 (if I could at all), that seems like it'd be decent. Initially I thought going +3 to your cap was kinda eehhhh, because that was adding 1.5 to your start of day, more or less, but I think it doesn't JUST do that based on the phrasing.


Also, speaking of familiars and archetypes, it seems like all the major wanted spells above are on the Witch list. Seems possibly worthwhile to take Unlettered, trade out the spellbook for a free familiar at basically no cost. . . Well I guess depending on GM ruling it might conflict with Eldritch Font since both of them "change" spells. But not with anything else I was looking at... Could be iinnnnteresting. I'll keep pondering on my end, but more ideas are always good, THE NEGATIVE ENERGY MUST FLOW.

[Geddy2112]

Well, either you or the familiar has to risk delivering the touch spell, or you gotta use spectral hand, or reach spell. Touch spells are usually pretty powerful, but risk is just part of it.

You might want to consider a wand of spectral hand. It will be expensive if you buy it at 4500gold, or even making it requires craft wand and 2250gold. Each casting lasts 3 minutes, and it has 50 charges so it should cover the campaign. You won't need to UMD or waste a spell slot on it, so worth having. If you plan on needing it less than 30 times, buy 30 scrolls of spectral hand to save money. If you end up going wizard crafting them would be cost effective and not require a feat.

Eldritch font is good to have just in case, because a lot of necro spells love more DC's and spell levels. Fatigue is not a bad condition, but exhaustion is. You probably want the potent magic exploit over that, but having both and spell focus-necromancy is a good way to get necro to stick. I would probably not go this route because you can't remove the fatigue any way except rest. You could dip lame oracle to get immunity at higher levels. There is also dipping horizon walker, a cord of stubborn resolve, or a Scarlet and Green Cabochon(makes you sickened instead) if you wanna really optimize this archetype.

Extra reservoir is pretty good if you don't have any better feats to take. you will probably be burning reservoir to juice DC's so not a bad choice. I would take spell focus-necro, improved initiative, and improved familiar first.

If you want a familiar and don't mind the slightly weaker witch list, then unlettered arcanist is a straight upgrade. Be very careful using your familiar to deliver touch spells if you go this route because it is your spellbook.

[Psyren]

Also, speaking of familiars and archetypes, it seems like all the major wanted spells above are on the Witch list.

Speaking of which, Gravewalker Witch can deliver touch spells safely, but it makes them take an extra round to cast. You can also use Prehensile Hair, or if you want to go whole-hog, White-Haired Witch to deliver your touch spells from a safe distance.

[Florian]

With that heavy focus on touch spells, would´t the Sword Binder Wizard archetype come in handy here?

[Endless Query]

I'll admit, I didn't really think of running Witch main... Essspecially Grave Walker. For all that I'm going all lifesteal and debuff, my party is largely good aligned, and I think running around with a little gore poppet might cause some... Conflicts. Also trading out patron spells for a bunch of undead control stuff when I'm not planning on pets seems... Non ideal. White Haired Witch IS cute, actually a previous character iteration for this game was trying to swing that, but it's a real pain to get working right I find...

Also, there is one issue with Eldritch Font and immunity: The game is totally on to you, you can't use it if the status would be prevented. The main advantages I saw with it was the +2 DC (basically always Potent), and possibly if we get later, the forced reroll. Green Cabochon probably works though...

The real question, in my head, is Eldritch Font VS Blood Arcanist VS School Savant. Necro (Life) is pretty interesting since it does emphasize Life manipulation and "I'm a good Necro, come on!" aspects, though there are some interesting Bloodline options...

Impossible... FEAR ME CONSTRUCTS! Free crafting feet with an added boost, uh, some extra dodge per day? And super personal gravity. Seems cute... Then there's arcane... Free familiar without Witch swap, +1 DC to those Reach spells, occasional "Whoops, should've prepared this with (x metamagic). New Arcana is pretty worthless but +2 even more Necromancy DC (if we get that far).

Wand of Spectral Hand is a decent idea. Shame you can't Permanency that floating menace =P

Huh, and Sword Binder is cute, I feel like you give up too much for what it does though.

[Florian]

@Endless Query:

I think you´re overcomplicating things and miss out on all the stuff beyond the basic "necro" theme.
Start with Arcanist, Spell Specialist and Twilight Sage archetypes, add Expanded Preparation and go from there to one of the more classic GOD builds.

[Endless Query]

See, the trick there is, the game I'm in isn't super super optimal. Playing something reasonably strong in an overspecialized niche roll is something I can get away with, even if the end result is quite potent. Playing a straight out SUPER HIGH POWER build is going to get me beaten with a rolled up newspaper =P So I'm trying to combine character theme with effectiveness, but with theme first, rather than just indulging in raw, massive general effectiveness. Granted, yes, I probably shouldn't neglect all of the possible wizardly tools and variance, but even if I lean my strengths more to theme, I can still fill up that book (or familiar) with field manipulation and utility spells for when appropriate. I just don't want to overdo it, as the sheer versatility of full book arcane casters explicitly makes the GM twitchy.


That being said, a Shikigami familiar seems like it could be cute for touch shenanigans. Doesn't have to provoke to get the touch on (since Touch Attacks count as armed) invis at will, regen, DR (at least a little) some energy resistance... Hang on to it as a statuette if you need to smuggle it places or something. Also can just pelt people with random stuff when there's nothing else to do. Shenanigans.