Supreme power attack + leap attack + two handed weapon

[Nosta]

so My BaB is 13 and I have seven levels in FB and have Improved power attack and will get supreme power attack down the road

now what I'd like to now is if I gave up all 13 BaB and uses leap attack with improved or supreme with a a great sword what would be my damage from my Power attack bonus?

[Necroticplague]

With Improved: +39.
+Leap Attack: +117.

Supreme: +52.
+Leap Attack: 156.

All assuming sacrificing 13 BaB (even though you'll obviously have more BaB when you get Supreme Power Attack).

[ShurikVch]

With Improved: +39.
+Leap Attack: +117.

Supreme: +52.
+Leap Attack: 156.

All assuming sacrificing 13 BaB (even though you'll obviously have more BaB when you get Supreme Power Attack).How the heck you calculated "+Leap Attack"? :smallconfused:

[Arael666]

How the heck you calculated "+Leap Attack"? :smallconfused:

he's assuming two handed weapon, leap attack triples the damage from power attack in that situation. So 39*3=117 and 52*3=156

[ShurikVch]

he's assuming two handed weapon, leap attack triples the damage from power attack in that situation. So 39*3=117 and 52*3=156Those 117/156 are x6 of base PA damage (Leap Attack damage is calculated from "normal bonus damage", not "total bonus damage")
It's not how D&D maths work
In D&D 2x2=3
Thus 2(2hw)x2(Improved PA)x2(Leap Attack)=x4 (x5 with Supreme PA)
For BAB 13, it will be 52 without Supreme Power Attack, and 65 with

[Necroticplague]

Those 117/156 are x6 of base PA damage (Leap Attack damage is calculated from "normal bonus damage", not "total bonus damage")
It's not how D&D maths work
In D&D 2x2=3
Thus 2(2hw)x2(Improved PA)x2(Leap Attack)=x4 (x5 with Supreme PA)
For BAB 13, it will be 52 without Supreme Power Attack, and 65 with

Um, where does it say anything about the normal damage? It just specifies it triples the extra damage from PA.


Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
So when Leap Attacking with a 2-handed weapon, you deal 3 times as much damage from PA. There's no multiplying for the "dnd math" multiplication to kick in, because there's only one multiplier: Leap Attack. Improved/supreme PA just increase your PA ratio, which isn't multiplying.

Even accounting for errata, I'm still right. The errata only says to change the second sentence, while leaving the third, relevant, sentence untouched.

ou can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack. Still there, not having 'normal' anywhere when discussing two-handed weapons.

[ShurikVch]

Still there, not having 'normal' anywhere when discussing two-handed weapons.Look better, it's there, right after the "100%"

[martixy]

Look better, it's there, right after the "100%"

He's nitpicking on the wording. I.e. that only the sentence that covers one-handed weapons is dependent on "normal" damage, while the sentence that governs 2H weapons does not have the same provision.
Which IMO is silly, but is valid if you squint real hard.
Ofc no DM in their right mind would let that particular interpretation fly.

[Necroticplague]

Look better, it's there, right after the "100%"

The part that says that doesn't come up when using a two handed weapon, because it tells you to use different rules in that scenario.

ou can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack. So while there is a 'normal' in there, it doesn't come up when using a two handed weapon, because you instead do something else.

[Zombimode]

It's not how D&D maths work
In D&D 2x2=3

Actually, D&D doesn't has its own math. In D&D, 2x2 equals 4, just like normally.
It is just that when an effect "doubles" some numeric value, what it actually means is that the multiplication factor of the value (which is 1 per default for everything) is increased by one.

Lets take Spirited Charge, which "doubles" your damage under certain circumstances.
This translates to:
actual damage = base damage * multiplication factor + variable bonus damage
with multiplication factor = 1 + modifiers
In the case of Spirited Charge, it provides a modifier of 1.

As for the question at hand, by a strict reading I think Necroticplague is right.
But I'm not sure if that is actually the intent of the feat.

Regardless of intent, the point is that Leap Attack is even with the modest interpretation that it increases the attack penalty / damage bonus ratio by 1, a very powerful feat.
With the strict reading, the damage becomes silly.

If that is appropriate for your game or not is for you to decide.

[Gallowglass]

At least in the version I'm looking at, the frenzied berserker improved power attack states:


Improved Power Attack: Beginning at 5th level, a frenzied berserker gains a +3 bonus on her melee damage rolls for every –2 penalty she takes on her melee attack rolls when using the Power Attack feat (or +3 for every –1 penalty if wielding a two-handed weapon other than a double weapon). This benefit does not stack with the normal effects of Power Attack.

and supreme power attack states:


Supreme Power Attack: A 10th-level frenzied berserker gains a +2 bonus on her melee damage rolls for every –1 penalty she takes on her melee attack rolls when using the Power Attack feat (or +4 for every –1 penalty if wielding a two-handed weapon other than a double weapon). This benefit does not stack with the effects of Power Attack or Improved Power Attack.

and leap attack states:


... you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

I'm not going to argue the RAWgic explanation that others are dredging out based on a poorly written errata to a poorly written feat because others have already done so. I'm just going to give you what I feel is the logical resolution of combining all these together into your attack soup.

I feel that the rider in Improved and Supreme that "this does not stack with the effects of power attack" are sufficient to guide us that the leap attack feat bonus which adds a damage bonus to the damage from your base power attack feat applies that rider ONLY to the base power attack damage and not the additional damage from the improved and supreme class features from frenzied berserker. I.E. they both affect power attack individually, then you add the effects together instead of applying one on top of the other multiplicative.

So I don't stack it like this:

power attack -> (improved/supreme) ->leap attack.

I stack it like this

Power attack -> (improved/supreme)
> leap attack


so I end up with:

normal power attack: - 13 to hit, +13 to damage (1 for 1)
with two handed weapon: -13 to hit, + 26 to damage (1 for 2)
with fb improved power attack and two handed weapon: - 13 to hit, +39 to damage (1 for 3)
with fb supreme power attack and two handed wapon: -13 to hit, + 52 to damage (1 for 4)
with 2-hnd weapon and leap attack: -13 to hit, +78 to damage (1 for 6)
with fb improved PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: -13 to hit, + 91 to damage (1 for 7)
with fb supreme PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: - 13 to hit, +104 to damage (1 for 8)

[Crake]

Ok, so normally when you use a two handed weapon and power attack you double the bonus damage. With leap attack you instead triple it. Supreme power attack doubles the initial bonus damage, but since in dnd multipliers stack by instead only adding the bonus from their multiplication (so a double and a double is only a triple, because you only count the base number once, and all multiplication happens to the base number), you would instead get an extra point of damage per bab from leap attack, and then 2 extra points of damage per bab from supreme power attack, which gives you a total of 2 base, +1 from leap attack, and then +2 from supreme power attack, or +5 damage per point of bab. For 13 bab and a full power attack, that's +75 damage.

[martixy]

@Zombie
It does have its own math, which you admit in the sentence after the one where you say it doesn't.
If you change the meaning of a math operation, even if only in certain cases, that's new math.
If it lets you operate on numbers according to certain rules, it's by definition math.

@Gallow
You end up with the same interpretation from doing the D&D-style multiplication.
Supreme PA is x2, Leap Attack is x3, which nets you x4, which for a 2H weapon equals the same 1 for 8 ratio.

And that sigged quote from Psyren is especially relevant here.

[Gallowglass]

Ok, so normally when you use a two handed weapon and power attack you double the bonus damage. With leap attack you instead triple it. Supreme power attack doubles the initial bonus damage, but since in dnd multipliers stack by instead only adding the bonus from their multiplication (so a double and a double is only a triple, because you only count the base number once, and all multiplication happens to the base number), you would instead get an extra point of damage per bab from leap attack, and then 2 extra points of damage per bab from supreme power attack, which gives you a total of 2 base, +1 from leap attack, and then +2 from supreme power attack, or +5 damage per point of bab. For 13 bab and a full power attack, that's +75 damage.


So Crake's table looks like this:

normal power attack: - 13 to hit, +13 to damage (1 for 1)
with two handed weapon: -13 to hit, + 26 to damage (1 for 2)
with fb improved power attack and two handed weapon: - 13 to hit, +39 to damage (1 for 3)
with fb supreme power attack and two handed wapon: -13 to hit, + 52 to damage (1 for 4)
with 2-hnd weapon and leap attack: -13 to hit, +39 to damage (1 for 3)
with fb improved PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: -13 to hit, + 52 to damage (1 for 4)
with fb supreme PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: - 13 to hit, +75 to damage (1 for 5)

I think his interpretation is perfectly sound and reasonable, even better than mine based on reasoning.

[Gallowglass]

And that sigged quote from Psyren is especially relevant here.

That quote is relevant everywhere. :)

[OldTrees1]

Leaping Two Handed Supreme Power Attack is:
1:5 (all D&D math)
thru
1:12 (no D&D math)

Leaping Two Handed is either
1:3 (Leaping is 1:2 but since Two Handed is 1:2 normally, they added a clarifying clause about it being 1:3. Note: Normal D&D math)
1:6 (The second clause is not a clarifying clause, it is merely a much bigger bonus. Note: Normal Non-D&D math)

+ Supreme Power Attack
1:5 (Leaping and Supreme stack as normal D&D math, and Leaping had a clarifying clause)
1:8 (Leaping and Supreme are independent, and Leaping did not have a clarifying clause)
1:12 (Leaping and Supreme stack as non D&D math, and Leaping did not have a clarifying clause)


I rule 1:5 at my table.

[ShurikVch]

So Crake's table looks like this:
...
with fb supreme PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: - 13 to hit, +75 to damage (1 for 5)

I think his interpretation is perfectly sound and reasonable, even better than mine based on reasoning.The last one is miscalculated by 10.
52+13=75? http://r27.imgfast.net/users/2712/35/14/55/smiles/424660.gif

[martixy]

Since it seems only I have yet to express a personal opinion on the interpretation here it is:


Leap Attack:
1H = x2
2H = x1.5

Supreme PA:
1H/2H = x2

Both:
1H = x3 (1 for 3)
2H = x2.5 (1 for 5)
Leap Attack:
1H = x2
2H = x3

Both:
1H = x3 (1 for 3)
2H: x4 (1 for 8)

[Quertus]

normal power attack: - 13 to hit, +13 to damage (1 for 1)
with two handed weapon: -13 to hit, + 26 to damage (1 for 2)
with fb improved power attack and two handed weapon: - 13 to hit, +39 to damage (1 for 3)
with fb supreme power attack and two handed wapon: -13 to hit, + 52 to damage (1 for 4)
with 2-hnd weapon and leap attack: -13 to hit, +78 to damage (1 for 6)
with fb improved PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: -13 to hit, + 91 to damage (1 for 7)
with fb supreme PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: - 13 to hit, +104 to damage (1 for 8)


So Crake's table looks like this:

normal power attack: - 13 to hit, +13 to damage (1 for 1)
with two handed weapon: -13 to hit, + 26 to damage (1 for 2)
with fb improved power attack and two handed weapon: - 13 to hit, +39 to damage (1 for 3)
with fb supreme power attack and two handed wapon: -13 to hit, + 52 to damage (1 for 4)
with 2-hnd weapon and leap attack: -13 to hit, +39 to damage (1 for 3)
with fb improved PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: -13 to hit, + 52 to damage (1 for 4)
with fb supreme PA, 2-hnd weapon, and leap attack: - 13 to hit, +75 to damage (1 for 5)

I think his interpretation is perfectly sound and reasonable, even better than mine based on reasoning.

As a rule, using power attack with a 2-handed weapon delivers twice as much damage as with a 1-handed weapon.

Any reading of any combination of abilities that breaks this pattern is suspect.

However, since leap attack already breaks this pattern, and does so in the traditional "add a multiplier" way, I would translate these abilities as follows:

Power Attack: translate BAB for damage, 1:1.

X-Handed weapon: xX multiplier to power attack damage.

Supreme Power Attack: translate BAB for damage, 1:2. May not be used in connection with other forms of power attack.

Leap attack: +1 to power attack multiplier, AKA "double" damage from power attack.

This would give you a final result of a x3 multiplier to your 1:2 power attack ratio, for a total bonus damage of 6x the BAB sacrificed. In this example of 13 BAB, that would be +78 damage.

[RedMage125]

Leaping Two Handed Supreme Power Attack is:
1:5 (all D&D math)
thru
1:12 (no D&D math)

Leaping Two Handed is either
1:3 (Leaping is 1:2 but since Two Handed is 1:2 normally, they added a clarifying clause about it being 1:3. Note: Normal D&D math)
1:6 (The second clause is not a clarifying clause, it is merely a much bigger bonus. Note: Normal Non-D&D math)

+ Supreme Power Attack
1:5 (Leaping and Supreme stack as normal D&D math, and Leaping had a clarifying clause)
1:8 (Leaping and Supreme are independent, and Leaping did not have a clarifying clause)
1:12 (Leaping and Supreme stack as non D&D math, and Leaping did not have a clarifying clause)


I rule 1:5 at my table.
Oldtrees, personally, I agree with you, and 1:5 is the most RAW-adherent.

HOWEVER, and I am just playing devil's advocate here (because the same language is used with one of the benefits of Combat Brute), SPA does not use "multiplication" language. It says straight up -1=+4, and both Leap Attack and Combat Brute say "multiply damage bonus", making it very easy to assume a 1:12 ratio (Combat Brute has the additional qualifier of requiring at least a -5 penalty on the attack, but that should be nothing at higher levels).

Like I said, I do read it the way you do. That Leap Attack triples the damage bonus with a 2h weapon instead of doubling it . Which means only one more increment is added to Supreme when used, making it 1:5.

[OldTrees1]

Oldtrees, personally, I agree with you, and 1:5 is the most RAW-adherent.

HOWEVER, and I am just playing devil's advocate here (because the same language is used with one of the benefits of Combat Brute), SPA does not use "multiplication" language. It says straight up -1=+4, and both Leap Attack and Combat Brute say "multiply damage bonus", making it very easy to assume a 1:12 ratio (Combat Brute has the additional qualifier of requiring at least a -5 penalty on the attack, but that should be nothing at higher levels).

Like I said, I do read it the way you do. That Leap Attack triples the damage bonus with a 2h weapon instead of doubling it . Which means only one more increment is added to Supreme when used, making it 1:5.

There is a reason I gave 3 answers despite only using one of those 3 at my table. I will not argue or even present an opinion about which is "the most RAW".

[animewatcha]

Just to chime in here. The version that gallowglass was looking at is FB from masters of the wild. The 3.5 version is in Comp Warrior if I am remembering the book right. 3.5 version doesn't have the 'this does not stack with power attack' etc. portion.