Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 [Archive] - Page 3 - Giant in the Playground Forums

NewDM

2016-05-14, 09:25 PM

That is a much better plan - so let's explore it.
What spells will be cast prior to releasing the Fighter?

Well since the fighter only has 3/4 cover in MY scenario where the WoF is several inches off the ground, the Wizard after casting all their buff spells would plink away with things like repeated fireballs (a few 3rd level slots), Melf's Acid arrow, and Fire Bolt cantrips until the last round where they would use their concentration buff.

Schroedingers wizard is alive and well I see!

Nope. Wrong again. The Wizard I posted is going through permanent changes throughout the thread to achieve "Fighter 20 vs Wizard 10" status. The BS has the same spells, we are just exploring which spells and in what sequence would have a pretty good chance of defeating the Fighter 20. Please don't stoop to memes that aren't accurate.

In that case its [2 rolls each]. The fighter adds +9 and the Wizard adds +3. The fighter wins any tie (he has the higher Dex).

For the love of Bane, read the rules. You can only spend a luck point to alter an opponents attack roll, not his ability check.

In that case the BS uses 2 luck points to counter the fighters luck on attacks and then uses the other luck point to make sure Hold Person sticks after that. Yep, Bladesinger just won the game.

Its irrelevant because the Fighter still probably goes first (Dex 18 and Alert vs Dex 16), and even if he doesnt, he still wins.

Throw the math out here or go home. I'm tired of 50 posts of 'nuh uh, the fighter would win.' without any facts to back it up.

Your AC (with GI and Blade dance and shield) is now 23. Fighter swings with GWM 'off' needing a 12 to hit (at disadvantage assuming you spend a luck re-roll and he counters it with his own). He has a 20 percent chance to hit [factoring in disadvantage]. If he misses by less than 7 (56 percent chance of rolling a 6 or better with disadvantage) he instead spams precise strike. If he hits (20 percent chance), he instead spams tripping strike knocking you prone and removing your disadvantage due to being invisible, and vastly increasing his odds of hitting with remaining attacks (which will likely be made with GWM toggled on)

Even not counting removing your disadvantage via knocking you on your backside, every attack has a 56 percent chance of hitting, and a 20 percent chance of hitting and inflicting an extra +1d12 damage and knocking you prone.

Once prone and with GWM switched 'on' every attack has a 20 percent chance of hitting, dealing GWM damage and an extra +1d12, and a 50 percent chance of normal damage + GWM until out of sup dice, in which case GWM gets switched off for a 45 percent chance of a hit per swing.

TL;DR even if you win initiative (hes rolling at +9 vs your +3 and wins ties) you still almost certainly die on turn one. You certainly dont surive past turn 2.

Where are you getting your numbers? The Fighter has a +11 to hit vs AC 19 (Blade Song) and vs AC 24 (Shield). With Mirror Image at full they have another 75% miss chance after hitting for a minimum of 3 rounds (75%, 65%, 50%) on top of their regular miss chance. On top of that half the time the Fighter only gets one attack via a readied action from blink. If the fighter closes their eyes for Mirror Image then no need for GI and the BS can use another concentration spell like Animate Object. I've also forgot to mention that the BS has an owl familiar that they cause the fighter to have disadvantage every round with.

In order to hit the BS the fighter has a 16% chance. (http://anydice.com/program/85b6) with disadvantage (from closing eyes). That means there are no trip attempts or Menacing attacks until about the 7th attack (70% 1/7 attacks hit). Now the fighter can turn 6 of those into Precise Strikes that hit about 56.25% of the time (http://anydice.com/program/85b9) if they don't use GWM. If they use GWM it turns into 25% of the time (http://anydice.com/program/85b8).

Your choice. Now since the BS no longer needs GI because the fighter is effectively blinding himself, we can use a spell like Stone Skin which will halve the damage the fighter does or turn the BS's 92(virtual) hp into 184(virtual) hp.

Vampiric Touch is not healing you for any significant amount. One hit, without using superiority dice or action surge or any depleting resource does more damage than it will heal (average). Fighter has four such attacks a round. You get one. At +8 (maybe +9) to hit, probably without advantage (because you're using Vampiric Touch and not Gr.Invis. or Haste), your odds of hitting the Fighter are only slightly higher than 50%...that's a bad choice for your action in any given round.

Spending an action on False Life is even worse. Using a high level slot (of which you have relatively few) you get 30-odd HP, as you say...which the Fighter will whittle in a couple of hits, leaving you a spell slot down and no closer to actually beating the Fighter.

What attacks? So far, you've described how your Bladesinger is spending all his resources just to stay alive (and he technically fails to do that without a good dose of luck), but let's assume your survival tactics work; you're still spending your spells and actions surviving. Meanwhile, the Fighter has taken a small amount of damage from Fire Shield and a bit of damage from Vampiric Touch.

His 4 attacks will outdamage your Cantrip damage, you've got no "big guns" left because you've spent them all on survival, your AC is a bit better, but vaguely comparable to his (once you run out of Shield spell slots), his attack modifier is better and you have about a third of his max HP. Please tell me how you win this fight. Currently, you're barely convincing me that your surviving it, let alone actually beating the Fighter.

Greater Invisibility only lasts until you decide to cast Vampiric Touch. Mirror Image is only good for a maximum of 3 hits and Blade Song lasts 2x1 minute.

I said it before; the Fighter has time on his side. If you can't kill him quickly, he will wear you down, wait for you to expend all your spell slots and dance around taking pot-shots whilst your spell effects expire or you choose to retreat. If he gets even a little lucky, you die, he wins. Otherwise, he plays the waiting game and kills you anyway.

His resources being expended reduce his effectiveness a little, but your resources depleting turns you into a glorified commoner. Your using attrition tactics works in his favour, not yours.

No actually they work in the Favor of the BS. We are now using the WoF to buff which means 100% chance to buff with no chance of dying first. Once that wears off our self-blinded Fighter is not going to hit the BS except maybe 3 times (3 out of 6 precise strikes). After that we are talking once every 7th attack or so. The Fighter gets 4 attacks per round unless they action surge so they hit 2 times for the two rounds they action surge. Then once every 3 rounds (because they get 4 attacks one round and 1 attack the next, so to make 7 attacks its 3 rounds). While the BS is healing itself with Vampiric Touch for 5d6/2 each round. Really we can drop VT until later on in the battle if they need it because fully buff BS with max HP. Instead we use Stone Skin which halves the Fighters damage. I'm sorry but the Fighter doesn't really stand a chance.

Arrow slits are vertical. The dude you are targeting behind one is standing still and trying to shoot you with arrows. Since he can attack you at all, you have a clear line of effect to his head and torso. If the dude decide to not shoot at you, he takes one step sideways and gain full cover.
A wall of force floating several inches above the ground creates an horizontal and poorly placed slit. Even when crawling, the angle of your shots is awful. You can barely aim at the feet, and that's assuming a perfectly flat ground. And the man stuck in the wall of force can step on a rock, kick some dirt...

The situations have little in common.

It doesn't matter. The open area is the same size as an arrow slit, therefore its 3/4 cover.

Assuming a T-Rex with Blink, Mirror Image, and Fire Shield active (with the Fighter getting disadvantage on attacks), we're looking at a 50% chance the Fighter can't affect the Wizard in a given turn, but still gets to act. If the Wizard isn't present, the Fighter uses the Dodge action to give the Wizard disadvantage to attack as well. If the wizard is present...

The BS still hits the Fighter 30.25% of the time. All it takes is one hit and the Fighter is grappled and restrained (disadvantage/advantage combo). This gives the BS advantage to attacks so the Fighter can dodge if they want but that still means 55% chance the T-Rex is going to munch on them for 4d12+7 damage a round. If they don't dodge its a 79.75% chance the T-Rex hits.

The Fighter closes their eyes to avoid messing with Mirror Image, and shoots them with disadvantage (which they already had anyway); +13 with disadvantage vs AC 13 has 90.25% accuracy, and will force a DC 10 Concentration save; since you don't keep class features in Polymorph, it's just +4 on the save, with no advantage. The odds of still being a dino after any particular attack are ~77%...meaning it'll usually take 4.5 attacks. The next 3.5 attacks (from the Action surge you use) go against the wizard, whose AC is currently 22...really, 17, but he's gonna use Shield, so 22. Average Damage Per Attack is gonna be 3.52125 ({[256*0]+[135*9.5]+[9*14]}/400), putting total damage for that round at 12.324375.

Presumably, the wizard uses another Polymorph (T-Rex) with their last 4th lvl slot, but that means they don't attack that round. They'll get maybe one round out of this before the Fighter does the same thing as above and forces them out of it. The wizard then uses another Polymorph spell (this time using their last 5th lvl slot); it loses an attack this round, but since the Fighter has no more Action Surges, we can assume they'll get two more rounds of T-Rex attacks before the Fighter bops them back to Wizard form for another 12.whatever damage. This gives them an expected 5 rounds of dino-attacks, 4 of which are made at disadvantage (due the how the Fighter's Dodging tactic works with the Blinking and lack of Action Surges remaining).

Let's see where our combatants stand at this point in round 7: the wizard is down 36.973125, and the Fighter has had to tank 5 T-Rex bites. The 4 bites at DisAd had average DPA of 14.0075 ({[231*0]+[168*33]+[1*59]}/400), and the one bite not at DisAd had average DPA of 22.75 ({[7*0]+[12*33]+[1*59]}/20), putting total damage dealt to the Fighter at 78.78, and the Fighter at 125.22 HP. It is now the Fighter's turn, assuming the Fighter can affect the Wizard)

Wizard's AC is now 25, since Bladesinger song is up (or whatever it's called). First attack is to knock the wizard prone (~80% success), and then attack three times without disadvantage (eyes still close=DisAd, adjacent to prone target=Ad). DPA for this is 4.95 ({[11*0]+[6*9.5]+[3*14]}/20), putting damage for that round at 14.85, and bringing the Wizard down to 22.123125 HP. Another 2 such rounds, and the wizard dies. Since this wound happen every 2 rounds (due to Blink), we can assume the whole combat gives the Wizard 4 more rounds of attacks (since after round 10, Blink wears off). Those 4 Wizard attacks have to tear through 125 HP (which doesn't include Survivor Regen or Second Wind, which would increase the number); with no 4th or 5th level slots, we're looking at 3rd lvl spells to save the day. Let's assume you fire off 4 fireballs that catch the Fighter but not the Wizard: with DC 15 and the Fighter's +5 Dex save, we're looking at 45% failure, 55% success. Assuming you only roll max damage on those fireballs, you'll deal 140 damage or so...which is just enough to force the Fighter to use his Second Wind., much less his automatic Regen.

"But what about Fire Shield?" I can hear somebody saying in a stereotypically whiny and nasally voice. Well, Mr Straw Man I made up for the purposes of answering this hypothetical question, I'm using a bow, and Fire Shield only affects melee attacks.

Really, once the Fighter closes their eyes to avoid Mirror Image the only thing the BS would choose would be Haste or Stone Skin. Polymorph wouldn't even come into the equation. At which point Booming Blade + bonus rapier attack would wittle away the fighters hp. They'd probably use up all their big damage spells first though to soften up the fighter.

Mirror image doesnt work when the attackers eyes are closed.

The Fighter is better off readying an attack with his bow (in the event of a blink) and then just shooting the T-Rex with a menacing strike arrow (he only misses on a 1, and the T-Rex needs a 18+ on the wisdom save to avoid being frightened and be able to advance to the Fighter).

The fighter just waits for a non blink. Then he smacks the T-Rex (with eyes closed) 4 times with his greatsword with GWM toggled on. He hits on a 7+ with disadvantage meaning two out of four hit (thanks to disadvantage), dealing 50 damage and forcing two saves vs DC 11 and 14 (at +4) or the Wizard is knocked back to Elf form.

If the Wizard is knocked into Elf form (70 percent chance) then he action surges and belts the Wizard 4 more times using precise strike and tripping strike as needed.

Ah this is with your champion. Different tactics. Nice.

Nope. You've already used up both Action Surges and all your Superiority Dice in the first two rounds trying to take out the near unhittable BS. Besides the moment the fighter decides to blind themself by closing their eyes the Wizard isn't going to use Polymorph. They will use Haste, Stone Skin, or Animate Object, and proceed to DPR the Fighter to death.

bid

2016-05-14, 10:16 PM

Throw the math out here or go home. I'm tired of 50 posts of 'nuh uh, the fighter would win.' without any facts to back it up.
You mean things like "0.13% of not being prone". Are you so tired you forgot those facts?

Do you seriously believe playing wack-a-mole with "Besides the moment the fighter decides to blind themself by closing their eyes the Wizard isn't going to use Polymorph" is going to save the wizard?

The fighter opens his eyes on the next turn, you waste another action and another slot changing strategy again. Could you at least think it through before spouting auto-fails.

Could you back up your plans for the wizard with facts and numbers. Explain how this spell will do more than delay the inevitable, find some counters, provoke a situation where a counter will leave the fighter wide open for your next turn.

As it stands, the best answer was "WoF to spend 10 minutes preparing".
- How does the wizard come out of preparation?
- What could the fighter do to counter it?
- How will the wizard react to the counter and weaken the fighter?

Mellack

2016-05-14, 10:50 PM

If the WoF only gives 3/4 cover, why can't the fighter shoot out and still be hitting the caster?

MaxWilson

2016-05-14, 10:52 PM

Welcome to my, thus far unanswered, argument. There's been a fair bit of discussion on whether the Wizard 10 is capable of surviving a Fighter 20 (most of it falling in the Fighters favour, I might add), but very little indeed about how this allegedly surviving Wizard is managing to actually do anything to the Fighter that he actually gives a crap about.

So far, I've yet to get a response to the question "how does the Wizard actually win?".

What's wrong with the answer in #499?

Malifice

2016-05-14, 11:27 PM

The wizard encases the fighter in a checkerboard design of one inch wall of force squares perfectly molded around the fighter, pinning him him place. He then proceeds to span cantrips at him hitting him through all the one inch openings. Easy peasy.

I know that is completely illegal by the rules. I think the reason no-one has answered your question is that there is no good answer that makes the wizard win.

The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels.

Yep.

In that case the BS uses 2 luck points to counter the fighters luck on attacks and then uses the other luck point to make sure Hold Person sticks after that. Yep, Bladesinger just won the game.

READ THE RULES! Seriously, pick up the book and read the lucky feat.

You cant foce me to re-roll a save. Only attack rolls.

Ive told you this like three times now.

Throw the math out here or go home.

I (and many others) have done so. Repeatedly. Your bladesinger dies horribly no later than turn 2. Most likely, it dies the instant after initiative is rolled.

smcmike

2016-05-14, 11:38 PM

Well since the fighter only has 3/4 cover in MY scenario where the WoF is several inches off the ground, the Wizard after casting all their buff spells would plink away with things like repeated fireballs (a few 3rd level slots), Melf's Acid arrow, and Fire Bolt cantrips until the last round where they would use their concentration buff.

It doesn't matter. The open area is the same size as an arrow slit, therefore its 3/4 cover.

Why do you think it works like this? Make an argument. Right now you are just asserting things, and those things are nonsense.

An arrow slit is vertical, and if an archer is standing at it, a lot of that archer is exposed to attack.

A couple of inches next to the ground is not remotely similar - the angle isn't there to even hit someone's feet, much less anything important.

The rules rely on a DM making calls like this. The arrow slit is an example to inform judgment calls, not a rule that any 2 inch gap in anything from any angle is 3/4 cover. For instance, a goblin standing next to that same arrow slit, as opposed to peering through it, may have full cover.

Now, if the fighter goes prone and tries to shoot under the WoF, you've got a shot at him. Otherwise, forget it.

Also, I'm kinda rooting for the wizard at this point. Make a better argument and show me how he wins.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 01:40 AM

Throw the math out here or go home. I'm tired of 50 posts of 'nuh uh, the fighter would win.' without any facts to back it up.

I did. I used a lot of math, in fact. Becoming a dinosaur is stupid plan because it takes away your class features, but it's still the best plan you've got because that dino form makes 4 or 5 Champion attacks useless.

The BS still hits the Fighter 30.25% of the time. All it takes is one hit and the Fighter is grappled and restrained (disadvantage/advantage combo). This gives the BS advantage to attacks so the Fighter can dodge if they want but that still means 55% chance the T-Rex is going to munch on them for 4d12+7 damage a round. If they don't dodge its a 79.75% chance the T-Rex hits.

I'm aware of the T-Rex's chances to hit; if you'll notice, part of my post was calculating their DPR. I was already assuming disadvantage on all the Fighter's attacks due to using a bow in melee, so all you're doing is giving yourself advantage canceling out the disadvantage the dodge action gave you. The bigger problem with the T-Rex idea, of course, is that at the end of your "bite/restrain the fighter" round, you either blink out (and I'm no longer restrained) or I shoot you with an action surge and knock you back to wizard form (and I'm no longer restrained). So basically, restraining me doesn't make me worse at fighting (since I already had disadvantage on attacks), and you never get to attack when I'm already restrained (since one way or another I won't be restrained when it's the T-Rex's turn to attack); now do you see why I didn't bother even mentioning the Restrained condition the bite gives? It never has any effect on the fight.

Really, once the Fighter closes their eyes to avoid Mirror Image the only thing the BS would choose would be Haste or Stone Skin. Polymorph wouldn't even come into the equation. At which point Booming Blade + bonus rapier attack would wittle away the fighters hp. They'd probably use up all their big damage spells first though to soften up the fighter.

Changing up tactics to use spells you never mentioned in your build? Hey, that's cool, you'll definitely need the help. Using all your big damage spells first? Hey, that's cool too.

I've decided on a new approach to this topic. So, NewDM! I tracked down your build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20769147&postcount=218), and I'd appreciate having a full spell list, as well as a list of trained skills; it's relevant information. Beyond that, I want to know: assuming we're having an actual fight, and your character wins initiative, what do you do? You already have Mage Armor up using 1 1st lvl slot (which is fair, it lasts a long time), but no other buffs. What actions do you take in round one, assuming you win initiative? Actions you take in round 2 and 3 would also be appreciated, but I can definitely understand if your actions in those rounds were more dependent on what actually happened. Also, are there any other buffs that you would reasonably already have up as a matter of just wandering around during the day? Long-term stuff, to be clear.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 01:43 AM

In fact...

JNAProductions

Could you also specify what skills your Post 8 build is proficient in?

JNAProductions

2016-05-15, 01:47 AM

Right, actual build time.

Fighter (Champion) 20
Wood Elf

Strength 9
Dexterity 20 (14 Base, +2 Race, +4 ASIs)
Constitution 18 (14 base, +4 ASIs)
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14 (12 base, +1 Race, +1 Feat)
Charisma 12

Dex +2 (Levels 4, 6)
Sharpshooter (Level 8)
Resilient (Wsidom) (Level 12)
Con +2 (Levels 14, 16)
Mobile (level 19)

Skills are Perception (Elf), Athletics and Acrobatics (Fighter), Stealth and Intimidation (Background).

Armed with Studded Leather, a Rapier, and a Longbow. Has the Defensive and Archery Fighting styles.

AC 18
HP 204
Move 45'

Easily capable of kiting the Warlock indefinitely, plinking away at range whenever the Warlock is far enough away. And honestly? Even in a straight, toe-to-toe shootout, my money is on the Fighter.

Updated my OP.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 01:50 AM

Updated my OP.

Appreciated.

NewDM

2016-05-15, 03:34 AM

You mean things like "0.13% of not being prone". Are you so tired you forgot those facts?

And I showed how that was nonsense. The BS has almost a 1 in 7 chance of being hit by the Trip Attack maneuver. Remember the Fighter can only use one maneuver per attack so you can't do precise strike and trip attack.

Do you seriously believe playing wack-a-mole with "Besides the moment the fighter decides to blind themself by closing their eyes the Wizard isn't going to use Polymorph" is going to save the wizard?

Yes. The math I've posted shows that the chance for the Fighter to hit is abysmal.

The fighter opens his eyes on the next turn, you waste another action and another slot changing strategy again. Could you at least think it through before spouting auto-fails.

Nope. If the fighter opens his eyes he's subject to the Mirror Image spell which means a 25% chance to hit the Wizard (after initial hit chance of 16%) for a total of 4% chance. That's with the ranged fighter with the Wizard always staying in melee. If the Fighter runs away they take an OA with War Caster allowing the Wizard to use Booming Blade in place of the OA, for a hefty 2d8+3+2d8 damage penalty if they hit. Here's a run down of the Fighters hit chances:

BS has Blade Song(+int to AC), Shield (7+ times) for a total AC of 24, Plus Mirror Image which either gives the Fighter disadvantage (from closed eyes) or lowers the chance to hit by 75%, 65%, and 50%. Each Duplicate has AC 13 which the fighter hits 95% of the time. So we'll just say any attack that doesn't hit the BS automatically hits the duplicate. So MI will take 5 hits and turn 3 of them into misses each time its cast.

Fighter attacks with eyes closed: 16% chance to hit without precise strike 56.25% with (max 6 times in the entire fight).
Fighter attacks with eyes open: 10%, 14%, 20%. With Precise Strike that turns into 18.75%, 26.25%, 37.5% (again max 6 times in the combat).
Fighter attacks the BS without MI: 40%. With Precise Strike that turns into 75%.

Another thing to remember is the BS can recast Mirror Image at any time.

1st round would be BS casts WoF trapping Fighter for 100 rounds.
2nd round the BS casts Mirror Image
3rd round the BS casts Fire Shield (if the fighter is a primarily melee fighter)
4th round the BS casts Blink
5th round the BS casts a 5th level False life for 26.5 temporary hit points.
6th-100th round the BS asks the DM if 'several inches off the ground' means 3/4 cover or total cover. If it means 3/4 cover they proceed to cast Fire Bolt or Acid Splash at the Fighter. If not the BS asks the DM how long the air inside the WoF will last? Its possible the Wizard can simply use a spell like stone shape to cut off the air around the WoF and suffocate the Fighter out.
6th round If none of those options work, the BS would begin their Blade Song and cast GI if the fighter is primarily a melee fighter or Haste if primarily a ranged fighter and would proceed to stick to the Fighter with their 40 movement speed (either option grants the fighter permanent disadvantage throughout the fight) and use Booming Blade or other damaging spells to take them out.
Conditionals:
When the temporary hit points are gone, the BS would take a round to re-cast False Life from a high level slot.
If the BS's hp drops dangerously low they would use Vampiric Touch out of their highest slot to restore their hp.
If the Fighter does not keep its eyes closed during the entire combat the BS would recast Mirror Image when all three images are gone.
Optionals:
The BS could cast Polymorph T-Rex to absorb 136 damage dealt by the Fighter in the first round after the WoF is gone. This would be 1-2 rounds of Action Surge + Superiority Dice by the fighter.

Could you back up your plans for the wizard with facts and numbers. Explain how this spell will do more than delay the inevitable, find some counters, provoke a situation where a counter will leave the fighter wide open for your next turn.

As it stands, the best answer was "WoF to spend 10 minutes preparing".
- How does the wizard come out of preparation?
- What could the fighter do to counter it?
- How will the wizard react to the counter and weaken the fighter?

I have multiple times. I'm not responsible if you fail to read the thread.

The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels.

Yep.

READ THE RULES! Seriously, pick up the book and read the lucky feat.

You cant foce me to re-roll a save. Only attack rolls.

Ive told you this like three times now.

Sure, then they would be used to lower the fighters attack rolls turning their nova into a mini-nova.

I (and many others) have done so. Repeatedly. Your bladesinger dies horribly no later than turn 2. Most likely, it dies the instant after initiative is rolled.

Nope, please keep up with the thread and math.

I did. I used a lot of math, in fact. Becoming a dinosaur is stupid plan because it takes away your class features, but it's still the best plan you've got because that dino form makes 4 or 5 Champion attacks useless.

Yes, and absorbing 4-5 attacks means the BS lasts longer.

I'm aware of the T-Rex's chances to hit; if you'll notice, part of my post was calculating their DPR. I was already assuming disadvantage on all the Fighter's attacks due to using a bow in melee, so all you're doing is giving yourself advantage canceling out the disadvantage the dodge action gave you. The bigger problem with the T-Rex idea, of course, is that at the end of your "bite/restrain the fighter" round, you either blink out (and I'm no longer restrained) or I shoot you with an action surge and knock you back to wizard form (and I'm no longer restrained). So basically, restraining me doesn't make me worse at fighting (since I already had disadvantage on attacks), and you never get to attack when I'm already restrained (since one way or another I won't be restrained when it's the T-Rex's turn to attack); now do you see why I didn't bother even mentioning the Restrained condition the bite gives? It never has any effect on the fight.

Restrained also gives the BS advantage on attacks.

With an Action Surge the Fighter deals:
2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF) or
2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF)+10(GWM)

The chance to hit the T-Rex is:
95% or
70% with GWM
90.25% disadvantage
49% with GWM and disadvantage

Damage after miss/hit/crit:
Normal Attack: 90% * (13.33 * 8) = 101.308; 5% * (21.66 * 8) = 8.664; total = 109.972
GWM: 70% * (23.33 * 8) = 130.648; 5% * (31.66 * 8) = 12.664; total = 143.312
Normal w/Dis: 85.25% * (13.33 * 8) = 90.9106; 5% * (21.66 * 8) = 8.664; total = 99.5746
GWM w/Dis: 44% * (23.33 * 8) = 82.1216; 5% * (31.66 * 8) = 12.664; total = 94.7856

Conclusion:
Normal Attacks: Nope the T-Rex is still alive until the second round.
GWM: Yep the T-Rex is dead and its possible 1 attack hits the BS.
Normal Attacks with Disadvantage: Nope T-Rex is still alive until the second round.
GWM with disadvantage: Nope still survives past first round.

Keep in mind the added miss chance for the first 3 hits if the BS has Mirror Image up before casting Polymorph which was not calculated into this equation.

If the T-Rex blinks out (fighter readies an action and gets 1 attack):
Normal Attack: 90% * 13.33 = 11.997; 5% * 21.66 = 1.083; total = 13.08
GWM: 70% * 23.33 = 16.331; 5% * 31.66 = 1.583; total = 17.914
Normal w/Dis: 85.25% * 13.33 = 11.363825; 5% * 21.66 = 1.083; total = 12.446825
GWM w/Dis: 44% * 23.33 = 10.2652; 5% * 31.66 = 1.583; total = 11.8482

Its a gamble, but it can pay off. If the T-Rex blinks out it takes the Fighter a minimum of 2 rounds to kill it while also eating up the Fighters Action Surge + Superiority Dice

After the fighter is out of Superiority Dice and Action Surges the Fighter becomes much, much easier.

Changing up tactics to use spells you never mentioned in your build? Hey, that's cool, you'll definitely need the help. Using all your big damage spells first? Hey, that's cool too.

I've decided on a new approach to this topic. So, NewDM! I tracked down your build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20769147&postcount=218), and I'd appreciate having a full spell list, as well as a list of trained skills; it's relevant information. Beyond that, I want to know: assuming we're having an actual fight, and your character wins initiative, what do you do? You already have Mage Armor up using 1 1st lvl slot (which is fair, it lasts a long time), but no other buffs. What actions do you take in round one, assuming you win initiative? Actions you take in round 2 and 3 would also be appreciated, but I can definitely understand if your actions in those rounds were more dependent on what actually happened. Also, are there any other buffs that you would reasonably already have up as a matter of just wandering around during the day? Long-term stuff, to be clear.

What do you think the BS is going to just stand there and not change up tactics based on the situation? We're talking an Intelligence of 16. Now who's the unreasonable one?

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life,
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image,
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste,
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility,
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force,
Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

krugaan

2016-05-15, 03:35 AM

So far the best tactic I can come up with is this for the wizard:

Assuming he wins initiate, wall of force for additional time to prepare.

Rope trick or Leomunds shelter for invulnerability to the fighters attacks.

Animate objects tiny or summon spells to attacks from out of line of sight.

Or nothing but magic missiles, never miss, slowly whittle the fighter down if he chooses not to run away.

Either way, the wizard is invulnerable from harm.

Edit: barring dispel magic or whatever.

Trying to duke it out with the warrior no matter advantage, blindness, whatever is foolhardy. Abusive mechanics is the only way the wizard has a chance, luckily, the fighter is largely unable to counter anything like that.

Giant2005

2016-05-15, 03:41 AM

So far the best tactic I can come with is this for the wizard:

Assuming he wins initiate, wall of force for additional time to prepare.

Rope trick or Leomunds shelter for invulnerability to the fighters attacks.

Animate objects tiny or summon spells to attacks from out of line of sight.

Or nothing but magic missiles, never miss, slowly whittle the fighter down if he chooses not to run away.

Either way, the wizard is invulnerable from harm.

Edit: barring dispel magic or whatever.

Neither Rope Trick or Leomunds could work for that as you cannot attack out of them (well you can attack out of Leomunds with a bow, but the Fighter doesn't have to sit there and be shot at).
It would work if you Animated Objects from the outside prior to casting either of those spells, if you didn't have to worry about the concentration mechanic. But because you do have to worry about the concentration mechanic, Wall of Force is going to disappear when you can Animate Objects, and the Fighter will beat you to death before you can cast Rope Trick or Leomunds. Even if it did work, one cast of Animate Objects wouldn't really put much of a dent in the Fighter anyway.

Malifice

2016-05-15, 03:48 AM

And I showed how that was nonsense. The BS has almost a 1 in 7 chance of being hit by the Trip Attack maneuver. Remember the Fighter can only use one maneuver per attack so you can't do precise strike and trip attack.

Yes. The math I've posted shows that the chance for the Fighter to hit is abysmal.

Nope. If the fighter opens his eyes he's subject to the Mirror Image spell which means a 25% chance to hit the Wizard (after initial hit chance of 16%) for a total of 4% chance. That's with the ranged fighter with the Wizard always staying in melee. If the Fighter runs away they take an OA with War Caster allowing the Wizard to use Booming Blade in place of the OA, for a hefty 2d8+3+2d8 damage penalty if they hit. Here's a run down of the Fighters hit chances:

BS has Blade Song(+int to AC), Shield (7+ times) for a total AC of 24, Plus Mirror Image which either gives the Fighter disadvantage (from closed eyes) or lowers the chance to hit by 75%, 65%, and 50%. Each Duplicate has AC 13 which the fighter hits 95% of the time. So we'll just say any attack that doesn't hit the BS automatically hits the duplicate. So MI will take 5 hits and turn 3 of them into misses each time its cast.

Fighter attacks with eyes closed: 16% chance to hit without precise strike 56.25% with (max 6 times in the entire fight).
Fighter attacks with eyes open: 10%, 14%, 20%. With Precise Strike that turns into 18.75%, 26.25%, 37.5% (again max 6 times in the combat).
Fighter attacks the BS without MI: 40%. With Precise Strike that turns into 75%.

Another thing to remember is the BS can recast Mirror Image at any time.

1st round would be BS casts WoF trapping Fighter for 100 rounds.
2nd round the BS casts Mirror Image
3rd round the BS casts Fire Shield (if the fighter is a primarily melee fighter)
4th round the BS casts Blink
5th round the BS casts a 5th level False life for 26.5 temporary hit points.
6th-100th round the BS asks the DM if 'several inches off the ground' means 3/4 cover or total cover. If it means 3/4 cover they proceed to cast Fire Bolt or Acid Splash at the Fighter. If not the BS asks the DM how long the air inside the WoF will last? Its possible the Wizard can simply use a spell like stone shape to cut off the air around the WoF and suffocate the Fighter out.
6th round If none of those options work, the BS would begin their Blade Song and cast GI if the fighter is primarily a melee fighter or Haste if primarily a ranged fighter and would proceed to stick to the Fighter with their 40 movement speed (either option grants the fighter permanent disadvantage throughout the fight) and use Booming Blade or other damaging spells to take them out.
Conditionals:
When the temporary hit points are gone, the BS would take a round to re-cast False Life from a high level slot.
If the BS's hp drops dangerously low they would use Vampiric Touch out of their highest slot to restore their hp.
If the Fighter does not keep its eyes closed during the entire combat the BS would recast Mirror Image when all three images are gone.
Optionals:
The BS could cast Polymorph T-Rex to absorb 136 damage dealt by the Fighter in the first round after the WoF is gone. This would be 1-2 rounds of Action Surge + Superiority Dice by the fighter.

I have multiple times. I'm not responsible if you fail to read the thread.

Sure, then they would be used to lower the fighters attack rolls turning their nova into a mini-nova.

Nope, please keep up with the thread and math.

Yes, and absorbing 4-5 attacks means the BS lasts longer.

Restrained also gives the BS advantage on attacks.

With an Action Surge the Fighter deals:
2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF) or
2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF)+10(GWM)

The chance to hit the T-Rex is:
95% or
70% with GWM
90.25% disadvantage
49% with GWM and disadvantage

Damage after miss/hit/crit:
Normal Attack: 90% * (13.33 * 8) = 101.308; 5% * (21.66 * 8) = 8.664; total = 109.972
GWM: 70% * (23.33 * 8) = 130.648; 5% * (31.66 * 8) = 12.664; total = 143.312
Normal w/Dis: 85.25% * (13.33 * 8) = 90.9106; 5% * (21.66 * 8) = 8.664; total = 99.5746
GWM w/Dis: 44% * (23.33 * 8) = 82.1216; 5% * (31.66 * 8) = 12.664; total = 94.7856

Conclusion:
Normal Attacks: Nope the T-Rex is still alive until the second round.
GWM: Yep the T-Rex is dead and its possible 1 attack hits the BS.
Normal Attacks with Disadvantage: Nope T-Rex is still alive until the second round.
GWM with disadvantage: Nope still survives past first round.

Keep in mind the added miss chance for the first 3 hits if the BS has Mirror Image up before casting Polymorph which was not calculated into this equation.

If the T-Rex blinks out (fighter readies an action and gets 1 attack):
Normal Attack: 90% * 13.33 = 11.997; 5% * 21.66 = 1.083; total = 13.08
GWM: 70% * 23.33 = 16.331; 5% * 31.66 = 1.583; total = 17.914
Normal w/Dis: 85.25% * 13.33 = 11.363825; 5% * 21.66 = 1.083; total = 12.446825
GWM w/Dis: 44% * 23.33 = 10.2652; 5% * 31.66 = 1.583; total = 11.8482

Its a gamble, but it can pay off. If the T-Rex blinks out it takes the Fighter a minimum of 2 rounds to kill it while also eating up the Fighters Action Surge + Superiority Dice

After the fighter is out of Superiority Dice and Action Surges the Fighter becomes much, much easier.

What do you think the BS is going to just stand there and not change up tactics based on the situation? We're talking an Intelligence of 16. Now who's the unreasonable one?

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life,
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image,
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste,
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility,
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force,
Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

Dude, each GWM hit forces a DC11 save (at +4, no warcaster) to save or T. rex is no more. DC 15 if the fighter spams a superiority dice to make you frightened.

You're almost guaranteed (no action surge) to get hit 4 times.

Odds are the fighter goes first and you die.

If the fighter loses init, odds are you still die.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 03:58 AM

Yes, and absorbing 4-5 attacks means the BS lasts longer.

Only if I wasn't already accounting for it...which I was. My original post has the T-Rex form save you from 4-5 attacks, and you still die.

Restrained also gives the BS advantage on attacks.

As I mentioned in the post you're supposedly responding to, I'm aware it gives advantage, but that just balanced out the disadvantage the Fighter is giving you from the Dodge action; you only get to attack the fighter without the Fighter giving you Disadvantage if 1) you didn't blink out last round, and 2) if the Fighter's Action Surge round didn't pop your Concentration.

With an Action Surge the Fighter deals:
2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF) or
2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF)+10(GWM)

The chance to hit the T-Rex is:
95% or
70% with GWM
90.25% disadvantage
49% with GWM and disadvantage

Damage after miss/hit/crit:
Normal Attack: 90% * (13.33 * 8) = 101.308; 5% * (21.66 * 8) = 8.664; total = 109.972
GWM: 70% * (23.33 * 8) = 130.648; 5% * (31.66 * 8) = 12.664; total = 143.312
Normal w/Dis: 85.25% * (13.33 * 8) = 90.9106; 5% * (21.66 * 8) = 8.664; total = 99.5746
GWM w/Dis: 44% * (23.33 * 8) = 82.1216; 5% * (31.66 * 8) = 12.664; total = 94.7856

Conclusion:
Normal Attacks: Nope the T-Rex is still alive until the second round.
GWM: Yep the T-Rex is dead and its possible 1 attack hits the BS.
Normal Attacks with Disadvantage: Nope T-Rex is still alive until the second round.
GWM with disadvantage: Nope still survives past first round.

Keep in mind the added miss chance for the first 3 hits if the BS has Mirror Image up before casting Polymorph which was not calculated into this equation.

If the T-Rex blinks out (fighter readies an action and gets 1 attack):
Normal Attack: 90% * 13.33 = 11.997; 5% * 21.66 = 1.083; total = 13.08
GWM: 70% * 23.33 = 16.331; 5% * 31.66 = 1.583; total = 17.914
Normal w/Dis: 85.25% * 13.33 = 11.363825; 5% * 21.66 = 1.083; total = 12.446825
GWM w/Dis: 44% * 23.33 = 10.2652; 5% * 31.66 = 1.583; total = 11.8482

Its a gamble, but it can pay off. If the T-Rex blinks out it takes the Fighter a minimum of 2 rounds to kill it while also eating up the Fighters Action Surge + Superiority Dice

I'm just doing normal attacks at disadvantage...because I only care about hitting; on an average of 4-5 attacks hitting the T-Rex, the Concentration spell pops and you're a wizard again; that's not dependent on damage dealt, but on the minimum Concentration save of DC 10, when you have a +4 and no advantage.

After the fighter is out of Superiority Dice and Action Surges the Fighter becomes much, much easier.

The Champion Fighter (the build I'm using, which you're supposedly responding to) doesn't have Superiority Dice.

What do you think the BS is going to just stand there and not change up tactics based on the situation? We're talking an Intelligence of 16. Now who's the unreasonable one?

My problem wasn't that you were switching up tactics. My problem is that you're switching up tactics to use spells your original build didn't even mention having. You can't have Schrodinger's spell book.

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life,
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image,
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste,
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility,
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force,
Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

I appreciate the spell list, although the lack of trained skilled is less appreciable. Shall I assume that whatever skills you're proficient in aren't relevant to the fight?

Also, while it's reasonable that you'd have Mage Armor up, the idea that your adventurer would be walking around an average day with Greater Invisibility (1 minute duration), Blink (1 minute duration), and Fire Shield (10 minute duration) all up just as the fight starts? Ha, no. Polymorph has an hour duration, so it'd be reasonable to already be Polymorph'd when the fight starts, but somehow that seems like a bad idea.

But you know what, sure! You can start with Mirror Image, Blink, and Fire Shield active; in fact, we'll assume you cast them in a nonexistent surprise round, so that you have 10 rounds of Blink left at the start of the fight (don't ask me how you cast 3 spells in one round, it doesn't matter that it couldn't happen). I must ask, though: which of the Concentration buff spells (Greater Invisibility, Animate Objects: tiny, Polymorph: T-Rex, Stoneskin, Vampiric Touch) would you like to have up at the start of the fight, if any? Can't have multiple concentration spells, after all!

Also, another question: if you were to be hit by an attack from the fighter in your wizard form, would you prefer to use your reaction to cast Shield (for +5 AC against attacks this round) or to use the Bladesinger ability to absorb damage? I would assume the former, but I don't want to make too many assumptions on what you want to do with your character.

Also, since we're assuming all buff spells are pre-fight, what would you like your first action to be?

EDIT: Final question for the moment: what would you prefer to use Lucky dice on? Your initiative, if you lose? Your wizard attacks if you hit? Your wizard Concentration saves if you fail them? The Fighter's attack rolls if they hit, or crit? Please tell me, it makes a huge difference.

JellyPooga

2016-05-15, 04:47 AM

What's wrong with the answer in #499?

Shape Water doesn't create water, only moves or manipulates it. Being reliant on a sufficient water source being present is not an assumption you can make in this scenario, I don't think.

You'd need at least one level of Druid or Cleric to get Create/Destroy Water (or otherwise get it on your spells known list), if you wanted to go down this route.

- One 1st level casting creates 10 gallons of water. Higher slots create (spell levelx10) gallons.
- A 5ft diameter sphere has a volume (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=volume+conversion&oq=volume+conversion&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60j69i61l2.4811j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=volume+of+a+sphere) of about 65 cubic feet, or about 400 imperial gallons (closer to 500 US gallons).
- Using two 5th level slots for WoF and (at least) one 4th level slot on Stone Shape, you have 4x1st (40 gallons), 3x2nd (60 gallons), 3x3rd (90 gallons) and 2x4th (80 gallons) = the potential to create only 270 gallons of water. Not enough to fill your sphere.

You won't be drowning the Fighter today :smallwink:

krugaan

2016-05-15, 04:49 AM

Neither Rope Trick or Leomunds could work for that as you cannot attack out of them (well you can attack out of Leomunds with a bow, but the Fighter doesn't have to sit there and be shot at).
It would work if you Animated Objects from the outside prior to casting either of those spells, if you didn't have to worry about the concentration mechanic. But because you do have to worry about the concentration mechanic, Wall of Force is going to disappear when you can Animate Objects, and the Fighter will beat you to death before you can cast Rope Trick or Leomunds. Even if it did work, one cast of Animate Objects wouldn't really put much of a dent in the Fighter anyway.

What? Neither Leomunds nor rope trick is concentration. Climb the rope, pull it after you, cast animate objects, wall of force comes down, your safe in space.

Giant2005

2016-05-15, 04:57 AM

What? Neither Leomunds nor rope trick is concentration. Climb the rope, pull it after you, cast animate objects, wall of force comes down, your safe in space.

Your magic can't penetrate Rope Trick nor Leomunds.

krugaan

2016-05-15, 05:22 AM

Your magic can't penetrate Rope Trick nor Leomunds.

Yes, but animated objects can leave both spaces.

Edit: I guess it's dms call whether that counts as magic penetrating... But we're trying to make it vaguely possible for the wizard to win here, and it's reasonable

EvanescentHero

2016-05-15, 08:20 AM

What? Neither Leomunds nor rope trick is concentration. Climb the rope, pull it after you, cast animate objects, wall of force comes down, your safe in space.

Rope trick is fine, but Leomund's tiny hut takes a full minute to cast, so you can't do that while concentrating on wall of force.

MaxWilson

2016-05-15, 09:00 AM

Shape Water doesn't create water, only moves or manipulates it. Being reliant on a sufficient water source being present is not an assumption you can make in this scenario, I don't think.

You'd need at least one level of Druid or Cleric to get Create/Destroy Water (or otherwise get it on your spells known list), if you wanted to go down this route.

- One 1st level casting creates 10 gallons of water. Higher slots create (spell levelx10) gallons.
- A 5ft diameter sphere has a volume (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=volume+conversion&oq=volume+conversion&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60j69i61l2.4811j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=volume+of+a+sphere) of about 65 cubic feet, or about 400 imperial gallons (closer to 500 US gallons).
- Using two 5th level slots for WoF and (at least) one 4th level slot on Stone Shape, you have 4x1st (40 gallons), 3x2nd (60 gallons), 3x3rd (90 gallons) and 2x4th (80 gallons) = the potential to create only 270 gallons of water. Not enough to fill your sphere.

You won't be drowning the Fighter today :smallwink:

So, dependency on a non-guaranteed terrain feature (nearby well/river/etc.) is one objection. Are there any others?

I don't have a horse in this race when it comes to "who would win?" but I'd find it interesting if wizards can indeed kill 20th level champions/battlemasters by baiting them close to wells and rivers.

Cybren

2016-05-15, 09:09 AM

So, dependency on a non-guaranteed terrain feature (nearby well/river/etc.) is one objection. Are there any others?

I don't have a horse in this race when it comes to "who would win?" but I'd find it interesting if wizards can indeed kill 20th level champions/battlemasters by baiting them close to wells and rivers.

Well, to be fair, it's received wisdom that it's safe to stick to the rivers and lakes that you're used to

JNAProductions

2016-05-15, 09:22 AM

Oh, one other issue with your post, NewDM-you say you're going to stick close with your 40' move speed? My build has 45'.

wunderkid

2016-05-15, 10:06 AM

Well, to be fair, it's received wisdom that it's safe to stick to the rivers and lakes that you're used to

And whatever you do don't chase waterfalls because only bad things can happen if you do

bid

2016-05-15, 10:13 AM

And I showed how that was nonsense. The BS has almost a 1 in 7 chance of being hit by the Trip Attack maneuver. Remember the Fighter can only use one maneuver per attack so you can't do precise strike and trip attack.
No you haven't. Numbers please.

I've looked at every post since #423, nothing you've said comes close to avoiding the trip attack. Let me reiterate with numbers:
What was it now? Dex14+lucky vs Dex20+alert+lucky? So +2 vs +10 = +8?
- anydice: output [highest 1 of 2d20] - [highest 1 of 2d20], 14% of wizard gaining initiative (both spend a lucky roll)
So wizard already has 6 in 7 of losing initiative and (AC15 vs +11) yet again 6 in 7 of "being hit by the Trip Attack maneuver".

So assuming we are in the 1 in 7 where wizard wins initiative and does the WoF to prepare himself, wizard casts which mole to wack?

MaxWilson

2016-05-15, 10:18 AM

Oh, one other issue with your post, NewDM-you say you're going to stick close with your 40' move speed? My build has 45'.

Longstrider is an oft-overlooked no-concentration buff.

JNAProductions

2016-05-15, 10:20 AM

True that. But let me check NewDM's build...

Has NO Longstrider.

MaxWilson

2016-05-15, 10:35 AM

True that. But let me check NewDM's build...

Has NO Longstrider.

Yeah, I know. He overlooked it.

JoeJ

2016-05-15, 05:09 PM

The warlock finds a convenient narrow, 200 foot deep crevice with lava at the bottom and, just before the fighter arrives, casts Minor Illusion to create the image of a bridge.

georgie_leech

2016-05-15, 05:10 PM

The warlock finds a convenient narrow, 200 foot deep crevice with lava at the bottom and, just before the fighter arrives, casts Minor Illusion to create the image of a bridge.

The Fighter, not caring about the bridge, decides to jump the crevice because why not? Style points are important :smallbiggrin:

Malifice

2016-05-15, 05:10 PM

The warlock finds a convenient narrow, 200 foot deep crevice with lava at the bottom and, just before the fighter arrives, casts Minor Illusion to create the image of a bridge.

The Fighter uses the GP hes hoarded from years of adventuring to hire a half dozen assasins. They infiltrate the warlocks party and push him into the lava before he casts anything.

krugaan

2016-05-15, 05:24 PM

Rope trick is fine, but Leomund's tiny hut takes a full minute to cast, so you can't do that while concentrating on wall of force.

Ah, true. Rope trick it is. Any other problems with this plan?

Xetheral

2016-05-15, 06:04 PM

For those who want to look at the math more precisely, here are some anydice code snippets you might find useful:

FIGHTERINIT: 8
WIZARDINIT: 3
FIGHTERINITROLL: 1d20
WIZARDINITROLL: [highest 1 of 2d20]

function: rollcontest fighterroll FR:n fighterbonus FB:n wizardroll WR:n wizardbonus WB:n {
if FR + FB > WR + WB{result: 1}
if FR + FB = WR + WB{result: 0}
if FR + FB < WR + WB{result: -1}
}

output [rollcontest fighterroll FIGHTERINITROLL fighterbonus FIGHTERINIT wizardroll WIZARDINITROLL wizardbonus WIZARDINIT] named "Fighter Wins Contest"

FIGHTERATTACKROLL: [lowest 1 of 2d20]
FIGHTERATTACKBONUS: 8
FIGHTERCRITTARGET: 19
FIGHTERDAMAGEDICE: 1d8
FIGHTERDAMAGEBONUS: 15
WIZARDAC: 24
MISSCHANCE: 0

function: rollattack attackroll AR:n attackbonus AB:n crittarget CT:n attackdamagedice ADD:n attackdamagebonus ADB:n defenderac AC:n mischanceroll MCR:n mischance MC:n{
if MCR<=MC {result: 0}
if AR>=CT {result: ADD+ADD+ADB}
if AR+AB>=AC {result: ADD+ADB}
if AR+AB<AC {result: 0}
}

output 1d[rollattack attackroll FIGHTERATTACKROLL attackbonus FIGHTERATTACKBONUS crittarget FIGHTERCRITTARGET attackdamagedice FIGHTERDAMAGEDICE attackdamagebonus FIGHTERDAMAGEBONUS defenderac WIZARDAC mischanceroll 1d100 mischance MISSCHANCE] named "Damage to Wizard"

The latter is useful when you want to know the odds of doing exactly N damage or at least N damage, rather than trying to extrapolate who wins merely from the average damage. To increase the number of attacks rolled at once, simply increment the "1d[rollattack..." to "2d[rollattack...", etc. If anyone has the time and the inclination you can nest a series of these blocks using conditionals to calculate an exact likelihood for each combatant killing the other, but I've reached my limit for time invested in the project for today. :) (Also, AnyDice has a recursion limit that you might hit if you try to do more than a couple rounds of simulation at once.)

Edit: To track multiple rounds of combat, it may be easier to look at each round individually with Anydice, and then export the probability results to a spreadsheet for later tabulation. Otherwise the number of conditional code blocks required may quickly become unmanageable.

JellyPooga

2016-05-15, 06:30 PM

So, dependency on a non-guaranteed terrain feature (nearby well/river/etc.) is one objection. Are there any others?

Post #499 poses a compelling argument, assuming a sufficient water source.

However...

- Stone Shape to form a "cage" also assumes the ground is stone to sufficient depth to form said cage. Again, not an assumption I'd be willing to grant in a "fair" match-up, which this obviously is not.

- The entire notion assumes the Fighter has no means of teleportation to simply escape the WoF. Teleportation is available freely to an EK (Misty Step being the least investment), but a Champion or Battlemaster has more than sufficient resource/experience to purchase or find a magic item to achieve a similar result (schrodingers coming into play a little, admittedly, but telportation is an extremely useful "get out of jail" card regardless, so could be argued as a reasonable part of any given Fighter build).

- The Wizard needs to get his initial WoF off before the Fighter ganks him, which means the Wizard needs to win Initiative. As has been established previously by others; Initiative almost certainly goes to the Fighter in this match-up.

- The Fighter must drown within 10 minutes; the maximum duration of WoF. The Wizard does not get a second chance at this, because he's now used both 5th level slots. Assuming the Fighter doesn't have access to the Water Breathing spell or a similar effect (such as from a Cap of Water Breathing or Cloak of the Manta Ray) it could take up to 7 minutes for the Fighter to actually drown. Equally likely is that the Fighter will actually stabilize after 7 minutes, leaving it up to the GM as to what happens next. As far as I'm aware, the result of passing three Death Saves after suffering from suffocation is not addressed by the RAW. If the Wizard walks away, assuming the conclusion foregone, he could be leaving the field of battle before the battle is, technically, won.

I admit that two of these points are (mostly) reliant on the Fighter having certain magic items, which are both optional rules in the first place and it's situational as to whether the Fighter would actually have them. However, it's also situational that the Wizard has Wall of Force, Stone Shape and Shape Water prepared as well as having a sufficient water source and being in appropriate terrain, so I think those kind of balance out :smallbiggrin: Especially given that at least two of the items that would guarantee the Fighters survival are only of Uncommon rarity and of high utility for a 20th level character to own, given their relatively low resource cost.

NewDM

2016-05-15, 09:13 PM

Only if I wasn't already accounting for it...which I was. My original post has the T-Rex form save you from 4-5 attacks, and you still die.

Nope. I've shown the math several times now. The BS (T-Rex) survives 8 attacks or 7 if the Fighter uses the optimal attack combination which uses the Fighters actions surge. That's on the damage side.

As I mentioned in the post you're supposedly responding to, I'm aware it gives advantage, but that just balanced out the disadvantage the Fighter is giving you from the Dodge action; you only get to attack the fighter without the Fighter giving you Disadvantage if 1) you didn't blink out last round, and 2) if the Fighter's Action Surge round didn't pop your Concentration.

On the concentration side after 4-5 attacks the BS will lose polymorph unless they blinked out at which point it'll be 2-3 rounds. If they blink out they have a good chance to grapple the fighter unless the fighter used dodge, at which point the BS just survived another round. Of course this doesn't affect the fact that the BS still has False Life, Mirror Image, and Fire Shield up so when they return to Wizard form they are still impossibly hard to hit and can survive an entire round of the Fighters attacks before casting another concentration spell such as GI, Animate Object, or Stone Skin. Blade Song doesn't end unless the BS intentionally ends it or drops to 0 hit points. The BS never dropped to 0 hp (the T-Rex did with its own completely separate stats) so Blade Song never ended. Yes, doesn't make sense, but RAW is RAW.

I'm just doing normal attacks at disadvantage...because I only care about hitting; on an average of 4-5 attacks hitting the T-Rex, the Concentration spell pops and you're a wizard again; that's not dependent on damage dealt, but on the minimum Concentration save of DC 10, when you have a +4 and no advantage.

Yes, and that's either 1 round, 2 rounds (5 attacks) or 1 round + Actions Surge. Mission accomplished the fighter took 4d12+7 damage (2 rounds is 2 attacks with 55% hit chance so at least 1 hit), was possibly restrained and fell from more than 10 feet (so took another 1d10 damage) if the T-Rex blinked out and likely used Action Surge. The BS can do it up to 3 times. After the second time the Fighter is out of Action Surges and the BS is probably close to being out of temporary hit points, but still at full HP. Temp HP is restored with a 3rd or 5th level False Life.

The Champion Fighter (the build I'm using, which you're supposedly responding to) doesn't have Superiority Dice.

Oh good because 18-20 crit chance is much worse than adding +1d12 to attack/damage.

Damage (Champion)
Hit 2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF) = 13.33
Crit 4d6(weapon)+5(str)+2.66(GWF) = 21.66
GWM Hit 2d6(weapon)+5(str)+1.33(GWF)+10(GWM) = 23.33
GWM Crit 4d6(weapon)+5(str)+2.66(GWF)+10(GWM) = 31.66

Hit Chance (vs. AC 24)
Normal Hit 25% * 13.33 = 3.3325; Crit 15% * 21.66 = 3.249; Total = 6.5815
Disadvantage Hit 1% * 13.33 = 0.1333; Crit 15% * 21.66 = 3.249; Total = 3.3823
Normal GWM Hit 0% * 23.33 = 0; Crit 15% * 31.66 = 4.749; Total = 4.749
Disadvantage GWM Hit 0% * 23.33 = 0; Crit 15% * 31.66 = 4.749; Total = 4.749

The BS would be using a free action to laugh and say "That tickled!".

Not really, it would be more like whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, whiff, Slam! "Ow that hurt!".

My problem wasn't that you were switching up tactics. My problem is that you're switching up tactics to use spells your original build didn't even mention having. You can't have Schrodinger's spell book.

Its called evolving the build. This is different than Schrodinger Wizard because SW doesn't write down their spells and they just assume they have the right spell for the right situation. In this case we are attempting to find a specific build that can accomplish a specific task and I'm making alterations to the build to accomplish that. We know specifically which spells the Wizard has.

I appreciate the spell list, although the lack of trained skilled is less appreciable. Shall I assume that whatever skills you're proficient in aren't relevant to the fight?

I'm trying to remember which skills were mentioned that we needed the BS to have in order to succeed against one of the other builds, but obviously Acrobatics.

Also, while it's reasonable that you'd have Mage Armor up, the idea that your adventurer would be walking around an average day with Greater Invisibility (1 minute duration), Blink (1 minute duration), and Fire Shield (10 minute duration) all up just as the fight starts? Ha, no. Polymorph has an hour duration, so it'd be reasonable to already be Polymorph'd when the fight starts, but somehow that seems like a bad idea.

I prefaced several of my posts with the idea that if the Fighter gets initiative the BS would lose, barring bad rolls on the first round. If the BS gets initiative I'm claiming they would win. That's my claim. That's the only thing I'm trying to back up and prove.

But you know what, sure! You can start with Mirror Image, Blink, and Fire Shield active; in fact, we'll assume you cast them in a nonexistent surprise round, so that you have 10 rounds of Blink left at the start of the fight (don't ask me how you cast 3 spells in one round, it doesn't matter that it couldn't happen). I must ask, though: which of the Concentration buff spells (Greater Invisibility, Animate Objects: tiny, Polymorph: T-Rex, Stoneskin, Vampiric Touch) would you like to have up at the start of the fight, if any? Can't have multiple concentration spells, after all!

No, I'll take initiative and then use WoF to trap the fighter, then use the subsequent rounds to buff and then use the 3/4 cover to soften up the fighter with Fire Bolt.

Also, another question: if you were to be hit by an attack from the fighter in your wizard form, would you prefer to use your reaction to cast Shield (for +5 AC against attacks this round) or to use the Bladesinger ability to absorb damage? I would assume the former, but I don't want to make too many assumptions on what you want to do with your character.

It depends. If its coming back from a blink and the fighter is only getting their 1 readied action attack, then it would be shield to prevent a hit, but if the Fighters roll is too high it would instead be a spell slot to lessen the damage. So even if the Fighter hits with their 15% chance some or all of the damage could be mitigated. In the rounds when the Fighter has 4 or 8 attacks and it'll prevent an early hit then it would definitely be Shield. If the Fighter misses on all but the last one it would be a spell slot to mitigate the damage if the Fighters roll is too high to block.

Also, since we're assuming all buff spells are pre-fight, what would you like your first action to be?

EDIT: Final question for the moment: what would you prefer to use Lucky dice on? Your initiative, if you lose? Your wizard attacks if you hit? Your wizard Concentration saves if you fail them? The Fighter's attack rolls if they hit, or crit? Please tell me, it makes a huge difference.

See above for first action. Lucky dice would be used to win initiative and counter the fighters lucky on their attacks. If it would be impossible to win initiative with another roll (one of the fighters rolls is 15 or higher), then the BS would keep it for a save or to make the fighters first crit miss. In Wizard form its nearly impossible to fail a concentration save unless the fighter crits and rolls max damage, and even then its less than 20% failure chance (that's with 30 damage in a single attack).

Oh, one other issue with your post, NewDM-you say you're going to stick close with your 40' move speed? My build has 45'.

I thought we weren't in a flat featureless plain? Did that change?

No you haven't. Numbers please.

I've looked at every post since #423, nothing you've said comes close to avoiding the trip attack. Let me reiterate with numbers:
What was it now? Dex14+lucky vs Dex20+alert+lucky? So +2 vs +10 = +8?
- anydice: output [highest 1 of 2d20] - [highest 1 of 2d20], 14% of wizard gaining initiative (both spend a lucky roll)
So wizard already has 6 in 7 of losing initiative and (AC15 vs +11) yet again 6 in 7 of "being hit by the Trip Attack maneuver".

So assuming we are in the 1 in 7 where wizard wins initiative and does the WoF to prepare himself, wizard casts which mole to wack?

I've already said the Fighter would win if they won initiative. That discussion is long past. I'm asserting that if the BS (Blade Singer) wins initiative they can win. I'm not asserting anything else.

JNAProductions

2016-05-15, 09:23 PM

You keep saying you'll use 3/4 cover from Wall of Force. Which means the Fighter can shoot you. Which means you die in short order.

Edit: Oh, and also, since the Fighter wins initiative most of the time, that means that more often than not the Wizard loses.

NewDM

2016-05-15, 09:33 PM

You keep saying you'll use 3/4 cover from Wall of Force. Which means the Fighter can shoot you. Which means you die in short order.

lol, how? The Fighter can shoot out, but that means +5 to the BS's 24 AC for a total AC of 29 with Shield and Blade Song. Without disadvantage that's 15% chance to hit. There's no way the Fighter's taking out the BS with that weak sauce. After the first few rounds the BS will have Mirror Image and Blink up which means only 1 attack by the fighter half the time and a massive miss chance for 3 rounds on top of the 85% miss chance. The Fighter can shoot out all they want, it won't really help much.

Also just saw this:
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."

Which means fireball goes around total cover.

Edit: Oh, and also, since the Fighter wins initiative most of the time, that means that more often than not the Wizard loses.

I've said it lots of times now: My position is only if the BS wins initiative. I've already said the Fighter wins if they get initiative.

JNAProductions

2016-05-15, 09:34 PM

Giant2005

2016-05-15, 09:35 PM

I've already said the Fighter would win if they won initiative. That discussion is long past. I'm asserting that if the BS (Blade Singer) wins initiative they can win. I'm not asserting anything else.

But you keep ignoring the posts which prove otherwise. All it takes is a Fighter being smart enough to knock the Wizard over and the Wizard doesn't have a chance. Your math is meaningless if you keep ignoring the facts - which is exactly why it is an aberration when compared to all of the math in the thread that actually considers all of the tactics available to the Fighter and proves an early victory.
The only reason why this thread continues to exist is blatant willful ignorance.

bid

2016-05-15, 09:45 PM

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 09:47 PM

I'm trying to remember which skills were mentioned that we needed the BS to have in order to succeed against one of the other builds, but obviously Acrobatics.

I don't recall any other skills being particularly relevant; maybe Athletics, but it's not a requirement for this, especially if you already have Acrobatics.

I prefaced several of my posts with the idea that if the Fighter gets initiative the BS would lose, barring bad rolls on the first round. If the BS gets initiative I'm claiming they would win. That's my claim. That's the only thing I'm trying to back up and prove.

We'll see how things play out.

No, I'll take initiative and then use WoF to trap the fighter, then use the subsequent rounds to buff and then use the 3/4 cover to soften up the fighter with Fire Bolt.

Keep in mind that this Fighter (the one I'm using for this, JNA's champion) has Sharpshooter, which ignores 3/4 cover, so the Fighter can shoot you from within the WoF. If you want to buff unmolested, you'll have to make that full cover both ways; if you want to be able to shoot the fighter while they're "trapped", you'll need to accept the Fighter's return fire.

I assume Mage Armor will be up at the beginning of the Fight, and then you will cast Fire Shield, then Mirror Image, then Blink? Blink and Mirror Image are interchangeable, since both last a minute. Also, which Concentration buff were you going to use?

It depends. If its coming back from a blink and the fighter is only getting their 1 readied action attack, then it would be shield to prevent a hit, but if the Fighters roll is too high it would instead be a spell slot to lessen the damage. So even if the Fighter hits with their 15% chance some or all of the damage could be mitigated. In the rounds when the Fighter has 4 or 8 attacks and it'll prevent an early hit then it would definitely be Shield. If the Fighter misses on all but the last one it would be a spell slot to mitigate the damage if the Fighters roll is too high to block.

That all makes sense to me, and is acceptable programming for the Wizard's reaction: if it's the last attack in the round that hits, mitigate with damage soak; if it's not, Shield.

See above for first action. Lucky dice would be used to win initiative and counter the fighters lucky on their attacks. If it would be impossible to win initiative with another roll (one of the fighters rolls is 15 or higher), then the BS would keep it for a save or to make the fighters first crit miss. In Wizard form its nearly impossible to fail a concentration save unless the fighter crits and rolls max damage, and even then its less than 20% failure chance (that's with 30 damage in a single attack).

As mentioned, this is JNA's champion, which does not have Lucky. I shall assume the Wizard only uses a Lucky Reroll if they would otherwise lose initiative, and would save what's left for canceling crits/making saves.

I thought we weren't in a flat featureless plain? Did that change?

The assumption I'm making for this fighter is a 50' diameter arena; stone walls, stone floor, no doors/windows, domed ceiling.

I've already said the Fighter would win if they won initiative. That discussion is long past. I'm asserting that if the BS (Blade Singer) wins initiative they can win. I'm not asserting anything else.

Noted. We'll see if either of these assertions is true.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 09:53 PM

Also just saw this:
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."

Which means fireball goes around total cover.

If we weren't talking about a hemispherical WoF completely surrounding the Fighter, I would agree; the Fighter having full cover by being around the corner wouldn't mean anything to a Fireball. But because we're talking about a hemispherical WoF completely surrounding the Fighter, it's the kind of total cover that protects even from AoOs, unless you can find a way to cast spells through said WoF.

RickAllison

2016-05-15, 10:10 PM

If we weren't talking about a hemispherical WoF completely surrounding the Fighter, I would agree; the Fighter having full cover by being around the corner wouldn't mean anything to a Fireball. But because we're talking about a hemispherical WoF completely surrounding the Fighter, it's the kind of total cover that protects even from AoOs, unless you can find a way to cast spells through said WoF.

No, it could work. He suspends the WoF a half-inch off the ground like he tried to earlier, but it would supply total cover. However, there is still open air for the Fireball to travel through, so that is an avenue of attack since he doesn't need the direct like to the fighter.

With a DC of 14 and a Dex bonus of +5 from JNA's build, he saves on a 9. Expected damage then is (0.4*28)+(0.6*14)=19.6 damage out of a 3rd level slot. IIRC, he has 3 3rd and 4th level slots, and one 5th after the WoF. Accounting for the extra damage from upcasting, we get an expected damage of about 149.5 damage from all of them. That's a significant chunk out of the fighter (though he can regenerate) and it blows through the BS's high-level slots.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 10:12 PM

No, it could work. He suspends the WoF a half-inch off the ground like he tried to earlier, but it would supply total cover. However, there is still open air for the Fireball to travel through, so that is an avenue of attack since he doesn't need the direct like to the fighter.

With a DC of 14 and a Dex bonus of +5 from JNA's build, he saves on a 9. Expected damage then is (0.4*28)+(0.6*14)=19.6 damage out of a 3rd level slot. IIRC, he has 3 3rd and 4th level slots, and one 5th after the WoF. Accounting for the extra damage from upcasting, we get an expected damage of about 149.5 damage from all of them. That's a significant chunk out of the fighter (though he can regenerate) and it blows through the BS's high-level slots.

Hrm...good point. Although we have to also account for Indomitable being used on a failed save (which the enemy's Lucky can't interfere with). I imagine damage would work differently. Still, I look forward to seeing NewDM's tactics once they reply; I have rolls to make...

RickAllison

2016-05-15, 10:17 PM

Hrm...good point. Although we have to also account for Indomitable being used on a failed save (which the enemy's Lucky can't interfere with). I imagine damage would work differently. Still, I look forward to seeing NewDM's tactics once they reply; I have rolls to make...

Indeed on the Indomitable, I was just trying to get some preliminary numbers out to see if that was a viable strategy before we do the whole crunch on the rest.

If I was the fighter, I think I would be happy the wizard was chucking Fireballs at me. He is blowing all of his spells on pure damage rather than something more deleterious (like Polymorph!).

AvatarVecna

2016-05-15, 10:21 PM

Indeed on the Indomitable, I was just trying to get some preliminary numbers out to see if that was a viable strategy before we do the whole crunch on the rest.

If I was the fighter, I think I would be happy the wizard was chucking Fireballs at me. He is blowing all of his spells on pure damage rather than something more deleterious (like Polymorph!).

I'm happy about the wizard leading with Fireballs for other reasons.

Gwendol

2016-05-16, 01:30 AM

Eeeeeeeeeeeh.

Honestly there are level 10 builds that could take out a level 20 Fighter without much trouble, even an EK. The Warlock is hamstringed by its relatively crappy spell selection. A level 10 Wizard wouldn't have much trouble destroying a level 20 Fighter without nearly the same amount of restrictions.

Considering this reply to an earlier post of mine in this thread, I think we can safely conclude the goalposts have shifted somewhat. So far it looks like the wizard is unable to stay alive long enough to make a meaningful difference compared with the fate of the warlock 10. We're now discussing very specific corner cases (wizard manages to win initiative, fight takes place in a dungeon hall of some kind).
How about a sorcerer, or a druid 10? Can they put a dent in the awesomeness that is fighter 20?

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 01:38 AM

wunderkid

2016-05-16, 01:51 AM

If any class would be capable of it my money would be on the bard, with the bump to initiative from Jack of all trades and expertise stealth he stands a much better chance than the wizard of going first. And so far it seems going first is key to not becoming red paste.

The problem with the bard compared to the wizard however is AC. From what I can tell without bladedancing the wizards gets smushed in 6 seconds flat.

My only tactic would be abuse magical secrets to find a good combination. Stealth. Hope there's cover nearby and make sure you start out of range of melee. Pray for a suprise round from Stealth. And hope you can make the most of that round.

Then use most of the tactics presented above by the wizard. Possibly throwing in heat metal if they are wearing Armor just because it is a nice wedge of damage with no saves. But there may be better options.

I'll have a look at what you can pick up from magical secrets later and see if that could make a difference above and beyond what the wizard could do.

I feel like the fighter would almost certainly make short work of a necromancer wizards undead army, but I would be curious to see if you could make enough minions to give the fighter a wee run for his money as the necromancer build always seemed strong

Malifice

2016-05-16, 02:00 AM

Gwendol

2016-05-16, 02:00 AM

Yeah, maybe diplomance the victory.

Malifice

2016-05-16, 02:10 AM

Yeah, maybe diplomance the victory.

The fighter means buisiness. Diplomancy thus auto fails.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 02:38 AM

Considering this reply to an earlier post of mine in this thread, I think we can safely conclude the goalposts have shifted somewhat. So far it looks like the wizard is unable to stay alive long enough to make a meaningful difference compared with the fate of the warlock 10. We're now discussing very specific corner cases (wizard manages to win initiative, fight takes place in a dungeon hall of some kind).
How about a sorcerer, or a druid 10? Can they put a dent in the awesomeness that is fighter 20?

Notes: This build is dependent on winning initiative (as always) and is also based on a very controversial approach: the Wall Of Force hemisphere half an inch off the ground. Normally, I would swear up, down, and sideways that this is absolutely full cover, except maybe against AoEs...but this build focuses on using Magic Missile, which doesn't miss as long as there's a possibility for targeting...and the half inch gap exists. If you don't feel that a half-inch gap is enough for a Magic Missile to get through, or to aim one through, I totally understand.

Variant Human Evoker Wizard 10
8/16/15/20/8/8
Feats: Alert, Int +4

Round 1: Wall Of Force: hemisphere around Fighter.

Round 2-X: Magic Missile, starting with your highest level slots. Because of the Evoker 10 ability, and conversations had about it in regards to MM on Twitter, a MM V deals 7d4+42 damage, a MM IV deals 6d4+36 damage, and a MM III deals 5d4+30 damage. With the spell slots you've got at those levels (1 5th, 3 4ths, 3 3rds), you're looking at 40d4+240, which averages to 340 damage, enough to kill most any Fighter 20 without Force Resistance (or a Brooch Of Shielding, but who keeps one of those?).

In short, despite the fact that you and the Fighter are separated by something that normally constitutes full cover, you are able to attack the Fighter with a targeted spell only because Magic Missile is explicitly bull****.Notes: This one only works if they're wearing metal heavy armor (which I imagine a lot of Fighter 20s will, but it's hardly a guarantee), and of course requires that you win initiative. It's also slightly dependent on being able to combine a Shield with a Shield spell and Draconic Resilience; this seems to be fine by RAW, but I can certainly understand people not seeing it that way. In any case, a slightly lower AC might not make much of a difference, but if it does, let me know.

Variant Human Red Dragon Sorcerer 10
8/16/16/8/9/15
Feats: Alert, Lucky, War Caster
Equipment: Shield

AC: 23 (Base 13+Dex 3+Shield 2+Shield Spell 5)
HP:
Initiative: +8, Lucky reroll
Con Save: +7, advantage, Lucky reroll (maybe)

Assuming you win initiative (not a guarantee, but decent odds against most builds), you cast "Heat Metal" in a 5th level slot, targeting the Fighter's armor, with the "Extend Spell" metamagic. You then cast "Minor Illusion" using the "Quicken Spell" metamagic to create the illusion that the 5ft cube you occupy has been turned to stone. Bypassing this requires the Fighter (by RAW) to spend an action making a DC 14 Investigation check; if they fail, they believe the illusion; if they succeed, its illusory nature is revealed, and they can target you once more. Even assuming they always make the check (+11 for an EK, Lucky Reroll, whatever), that still wastes one of their actions, and requires then to use Action Surge to attack me before I teleport away...and they're getting a maximum of what, 5 attacks? Between my AC and my Con save, the spell might still be up when my second turn comes up (that's a bit maybe, though; I must admit, I haven't run the math yet).

If, by the start of your next turn, Heat Metal V is still active and you're still alive, Dimension Door away, using Subtle Spell if necessary to avoid grapple issues.

Until the Fighter can either end your Concentration or doff the armor, they are taking 5d8+2 fire damage every round for the next 20 rounds, which averages just shy of 500 HP of damage...and more than enough to kill most Fighters even if they have a way to give themselves Fire Resistance. This potential avenue of surviving can be cut off by using Empowered Spell on the Heat Metal spell in addition to the Extend Spell, although whether you have to spend a Sorcery point to reroll per round or per spell is a different argument (and I think RAW favors per round).

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 03:03 AM

Notes: This build is dependent on winning initiative (as always) and is also based on a very controversial approach: the Wall Of Force hemisphere half an inch off the ground. Normally, I would swear up, down, and sideways that this is absolutely full cover, except maybe against AoEs...but this build focuses on using Magic Missile, which doesn't miss as long as there's a possibility for targeting...and the half inch gap exists. If you don't feel that a half-inch gap is enough for a Magic Missile to get through, or to aim one through, I totally understand.

Variant Human Evoker Wizard 10
8/16/15/20/8/8
Feats: Alert, Int +4

Round 1: Wall Of Force: hemisphere around Fighter.

Round 2-X: Magic Missile, starting with your highest level slots. Because of the Evoker 10 ability, and conversations had about it in regards to MM on Twitter, a MM V deals 7d4+42 damage, a MM IV deals 6d4+36 damage, and a MM III deals 5d4+30 damage. With the spell slots you've got at those levels (1 5th, 3 4ths, 3 3rds), you're looking at 40d4+240, which averages to 340 damage, enough to kill most any Fighter 20 without Force Resistance (or a Brooch Of Shielding, but who keeps one of those?).

In short, despite the fact that you and the Fighter are separated by something that normally constitutes full cover, you are able to attack the Fighter with a targeted spell only because Magic Missile is explicitly bull****.
Empowered Evocation applying to Magic Missile more than once is more certainly not RAW and equally certainly not what JC was saying (not that has opinion is even relevant considering it is covered by the books already) - it takes some serious mental gymnastics to interpret it in the way that is most favorable to the Wizard.

Notes: This one only works if they're wearing metal heavy armor (which I imagine a lot of Fighter 20s will, but it's hardly a guarantee), and of course requires that you win initiative. It's also slightly dependent on being able to combine a Shield with a Shield spell and Draconic Resilience; this seems to be fine by RAW, but I can certainly understand people not seeing it that way. In any case, a slightly lower AC might not make much of a difference, but if it does, let me know.

Variant Human Red Dragon Sorcerer 10
8/16/16/8/9/15
Feats: Alert, Lucky, War Caster
Equipment: Shield

AC: 23 (Base 13+Dex 3+Shield 2+Shield Spell 5)
HP:
Initiative: +8, Lucky reroll
Con Save: +7, advantage, Lucky reroll (maybe)

Assuming you win initiative (not a guarantee, but decent odds against most builds), you cast "Heat Metal" in a 5th level slot, targeting the Fighter's armor, with the "Extend Spell" metamagic. You then cast "Minor Illusion" using the "Quicken Spell" metamagic to create the illusion that the 5ft cube you occupy has been turned to stone. Bypassing this requires the Fighter (by RAW) to spend an action making a DC 14 Investigation check; if they fail, they believe the illusion; if they succeed, its illusory nature is revealed, and they can target you once more. Even assuming they always make the check (+11 for an EK, Lucky Reroll, whatever), that still wastes one of their actions, and requires then to use Action Surge to attack me before I teleport away...and they're getting a maximum of what, 5 attacks? Between my AC and my Con save, the spell might still be up when my second turn comes up (that's a bit maybe, though; I must admit, I haven't run the math yet).

If, by the start of your next turn, Heat Metal V is still active and you're still alive, Dimension Door away, using Subtle Spell if necessary to avoid grapple issues.

Until the Fighter can either end your Concentration or doff the armor, they are taking 5d8+2 fire damage every round for the next 20 rounds, which averages just shy of 500 HP of damage...and more than enough to kill most Fighters even if they have a way to give themselves Fire Resistance. This potential avenue of surviving can be cut off by using Empowered Spell on the Heat Metal spell in addition to the Extend Spell, although whether you have to spend a Sorcery point to reroll per round or per spell is a different argument (and I think RAW favors per round).

Draconic Resilience, a Shield and the Shield spell all work together fine, but not in this case - the character doesn't proficiency with a Shield. It also relies a little too heavily on big stupid fighter syndrome. It doesn't take an Investigation check to realize that the spell is still effecting you, so the guy that just turned into a boulder is probably still a guy. Whether you can see through the illusion or not, you are going to be swinging at that boulder just the same. Also, the Wizard's head will probably be sticking out of the boulder unless he is unnaturally short.
One other thing - in a post errata world, Elemental Affinity only applies to a single damage roll of a spell - not all of them (not that the +2 damage makes a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things).

NewDM

2016-05-16, 03:08 AM

As far as I can tell, you only recently started saying that.

And you completely forgot about Sharpshooter-I ignore cover.

And how are you getting AC 24? Wasting spell slots on Shield again, are you?

Yeah, if it looks to the BS like its a primarily ranged Fighter (giant bow, finesse weapons on belt or back, no heavy weapons) then they would not give more than an inch which would be total cover, but still allow area spells in. If it looks like its a melee heavy weapon fighter then they would do the 3/4 cover tactic.

But you keep ignoring the posts which prove otherwise. All it takes is a Fighter being smart enough to knock the Wizard over and the Wizard doesn't have a chance. Your math is meaningless if you keep ignoring the facts - which is exactly why it is an aberration when compared to all of the math in the thread that actually considers all of the tactics available to the Fighter and proves an early victory.
The only reason why this thread continues to exist is blatant willful ignorance.

I've shown over and over how the Fighter has only a tiny chance to knock the BS over. Like a 1 in 7 chance which means the 7th hit out of 8 in an Action Surge or once in 2 rounds without AS. Its not going to change the outcome if the Fighter gets one or two attacks that cancel disadvantage.

I don't recall any other skills being particularly relevant; maybe Athletics, but it's not a requirement for this, especially if you already have Acrobatics.

In that case barring some corner case Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, Perception

We'll see how things play out.

Keep in mind that this Fighter (the one I'm using for this, JNA's champion) has Sharpshooter, which ignores 3/4 cover, so the Fighter can shoot you from within the WoF. If you want to buff unmolested, you'll have to make that full cover both ways; if you want to be able to shoot the fighter while they're "trapped", you'll need to accept the Fighter's return fire.

See above.

I assume Mage Armor will be up at the beginning of the Fight, and then you will cast Fire Shield, then Mirror Image, then Blink? Blink and Mirror Image are interchangeable, since both last a minute. Also, which Concentration buff were you going to use?

Depends on the situation. If its a ranged Fighter then just staying within 5 feet is all that's needed to grant disadvantage. In which case Stone Skin, or Animate Object. If its a melee fighter then Greater Invisibility to impose disadvantage and grant advantage. As others have said another buff would be Long Strider to have a move speed of 50 feet per round to stick to the ranged Fighter.

That all makes sense to me, and is acceptable programming for the Wizard's reaction: if it's the last attack in the round that hits, mitigate with damage soak; if it's not, Shield.

Only if Shield is not enough to turn it into a miss. However if its not the last attack it'll always be shield.

The fighter would hit:
65% normal attack
42.25% disadvantage
16% with disadvantage and Shield
40% with Shield

The BS will keep the fighter at disadvantage at all times (or attempt to) so that means out of 8 attacks 3 will hit and require Shield. That means on the two action surge rounds the BS uses Shield. Then 1 out of 4 will hit each round after that. 75% of the time it will be the first 3 attacks which the BS will use Shield, the other 25% of the time it'll be the last attack which the BS will mitigate with a 2nd level slot (10 damage). The Fighter deals 13.33 on average, so the BS only takes about 3-4 damage 25% of the time. Of course that only happens if shield isn't enough to block the attack so that's 25% of 16% which is 4% of the time.

That means the BS will use shield nearly every round which will cost a lot of low level slots.

As mentioned, this is JNA's champion, which does not have Lucky. I shall assume the Wizard only uses a Lucky Reroll if they would otherwise lose initiative, and would save what's left for canceling crits/making saves.

That's the plan.

The assumption I'm making for this fighter is a 50' diameter arena; stone walls, stone floor, no doors/windows, domed ceiling.

Then no Long Strider needed.

Noted. We'll see if either of these assertions is true.

Be my guest. I'd love to see 10 people play this out with real dice 10 times each to see what ratio of times the BS comes out ahead.

Wizard(Blade Singer)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, Perception
Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life, Long Strider.
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 03:18 AM

Empowered Evocation applying to Magic Missile more than once is more certainly not RAW and equally certainly not what JC was saying (not that has opinion is even relevant considering it is covered by the books already) - it takes some serious mental gymnastics to interpret it in the way that is most favorable to the Wizard.

Coulda sworn I saw somebody link to somewhere where they said it did, but I admit I don't really follow social media much for any reason, so I'm not entirely sure if they actually said that (and if the community considers it official).

I was pretty sure this worked with just 5 attacks, but if we have to throw in 3 2nd lvl spells and 4 1st lvl spells, that's fine too: at the very least, Empowered Evocation applies once to Magic Missile, meaning a lvl 5 deals 7d4+12, a lvl 4 deals 6d4+11, a lvl 3 deals 5d4+10, a lvl 2 deals 4d4+9, and a lvl 1 deals 3d4+8; overall, all your slots (1 5th, 3 4th, 3 3rd, 3 2nd, and 4 1st) deal a total of 64d4+134 (average 294), which is still pretty significant, although it's at the point where Force Resistance (rare) would save the Fighter, as would Shielding/Counterspelling some of the Magic Missiles (if they're an EK), or even just having lots of HP (Hill Dwarf Con 20 with Tough feat will average 284 HP before Second Wind).

Draconic Resilience, a Shield and the Shield spell all work together fine, but not in this case - the character doesn't proficiency with a Shield. It also relies a little too heavily on big stupid fighter syndrome. It doesn't take an Investigation check to realize that the spell is still effecting you, so the guy that just turned into a boulder is probably still a guy. Whether you can see through the illusion or not, you are going to be swinging at that boulder just the same. Also, the Wizard's head will probably be sticking out of the boulder unless he is unnaturally short.
One other thing - in a post errata world, Elemental Affinity only applies to a single damage roll of a spell - not all of them (not that the +2 damage makes a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things).

Hrm, that's a good point about the Shield. I don't know about you, but my DM would probably be calling metagame shenanigans on swinging at the boulder, since figuring out something like "the dude who turned into a boulder is probably using an illusion" is what the Investigation check is supposed to represent, but I suppose it would vary from table to table. Presumably, the Wizard can crouch slightly to be completely within the illusion.

Fair enough about the Elemental Affinity, but you're right: 20 rounds of 5d8 is still pretty harsh.

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 03:25 AM

I've shown over and over how the Fighter has only a tiny chance to knock the BS over. Like a 1 in 7 chance which means the 7th hit out of 8 in an Action Surge or once in 2 rounds without AS. Its not going to change the outcome if the Fighter gets one or two attacks that cancel disadvantage.

No, your exact quote is: "There's a 45% chance that this won't work. So the fighter will need to use 2 of them to be pretty sure it works."
Using two of them results in a second round death for the Wizard.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 03:26 AM

In that case barring some corner case Acrobatics, Athletics, Arcana, Perception

That's about what I figured.

See above.

That's about what I figured.

Depends on the situation. If its a ranged Fighter then just staying within 5 feet is all that's needed to grant disadvantage. In which case Stone Skin, or Animate Object. If its a melee fighter then Greater Invisibility to impose disadvantage and grant advantage. As others have said another buff would be Long Strider to have a move speed of 50 feet per round to stick to the ranged Fighter.

Well, it's built as a Ranged Fighter, although I can't imagine a Fighter 20 will be without a melee and ranged weapon, but I'll be assuming they use a Bow the whole time. So...Stoneskin? Animate Objects? I'd personally go Stoneskin for the duration, but I don't want to assume.

Be my guest. I'd love to see 10 people play this out with real dice 10 times each to see what ratio of times the BS comes out ahead.

Try 100.

georgie_leech

2016-05-16, 03:26 AM

Hrm, that's a good point about the Shield. I don't know about you, but my DM would probably be calling metagame shenanigans on swinging at the boulder, since figuring out something like "the dude who turned into a boulder is probably using an illusion" is what the Investigation check is supposed to represent, but I suppose it would vary from table to table. Presumably, the Wizard can crouch slightly to be completely within the illusion.

It would be metagaming to assume it's an illusion. In that situation, the assumption I'd make is that it might be the wizard trading places with an object, or it might be they turned into the boulder. The latter I can do something about right now, and try to smash the boulder in an attempt to destroy the clearly hostile wizard.

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 03:32 AM

I don't know about you, but my DM would probably be calling metagame shenanigans on swinging at the boulder, since figuring out something like "the dude who turned into a boulder is probably using an illusion" is what the Investigation check is supposed to represent, but I suppose it would vary from table to table.

I don't think my DM could call metagame shenanigans on it, not without actually telling me there was an illusion first (and he wouldn't). My DM would simply tell me that the Wizard turned into a rock - my character would have just as much reason to assume an illusion as I would and I would always swing at the rock first to make sure (unless there was a second illusion of the Wizard elsewhere).
Then again, there is a solid chance that the fighter would be far less intelligent than me, so I might choose to ignore the rock on that basis.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 03:37 AM

It would be metagaming to assume it's an illusion. In that situation, the assumption I'd make is that it might be the wizard trading places with an object, or it might be they turned into the boulder. The latter I can do something about right now, and try to smash the boulder in an attempt to destroy the clearly hostile wizard.

And that's certainly a fair assumption. Overall, I believe this would result in disadvantage on the attack rolls (for knowing what square to attack, but not actually being able to see what you're really hitting); +11 w/ Disadvantage vs AC 21 misses 69.75% of the time, hits 30%, and crits 0.25% of the time...but that's assuming the Fighter and I both have Lucky dice to cancel each other out with. A Fighter with Lucky probably used one on Initiative (and this situation is assuming I won initiative), leaving them two and me two, so no super-advantage on any attacks.

We can expect...let's say three attacks to hit if the Fighter has the Lucky feat and 2 Luck points left; if he doesn't have Lucky, we can expect maybe 1 or 2 to hit; with Con saves at +7 and advantage on the save, we're looking at a 99% chance of making the save as long as the Fighter's attack didn't do more than 21 damage (certainly not impossible, particularly for a Battlemaster or Monster Hunter).

Again, I'm hardly suggesting either of these are guarantees. But at the very least, they only depend on a few particular rolls going their way...and one of those is initiative, which they don't need if they have a way to get a surprise round (so, if the Fighter doesn't have Alert).

Cybren

2016-05-16, 05:42 AM

Why does an inchwide gap let a fireball in? The wording in the PHB is to point out an area of effect can extend past things but not that any minute gap allows it too. An inch-wide gap would almost certainly provide at least 3/4ths cover, unless somehow you argue you can fire the fireball through the gap but now we're back to square one. The explosion is going to mostly impact the wall of force, and that's kind of the definition of cover. That phrasing in the PHB is supposed to handle things like "the enemies are behind a tree that gives total cover but I explode the fireball 10ft past the tree" not "a stone door slightly ajar let's all explosions in"

NewDM

2016-05-16, 06:31 AM

No, your exact quote is: "There's a 45% chance that this won't work. So the fighter will need to use 2 of them to be pretty sure it works."
Using two of them results in a second round death for the Wizard.

That 45% chance was without Blade Song. I've already said that the Fighter wins if it wins initiative. If the Blade Singer wins initiative its a whole other matter.

The chance to knock the character down is the same chance of hitting with a regular attack times the chance of the character making the saving throw. Fully buffed the Fighter has a 16% chance to hit the BS with a regular attack. Then the BS can make a DC 19 Strength saving throw. Its only 5% but that does affect the chances. 0.16 * 0.95 = 15.2% chance to knock the BS down. That's 1 in 8 chance to knock the BS down. Remember the BS can simply stand up on their turn for 25 feet of movement (because they have 50 move speed). The Fighter can only do this 6 times if they don't use their superiority dice for anything else.

That's about what I figured.

That's about what I figured.

Well, it's built as a Ranged Fighter, although I can't imagine a Fighter 20 will be without a melee and ranged weapon, but I'll be assuming they use a Bow the whole time. So...Stoneskin? Animate Objects? I'd personally go Stoneskin for the duration, but I don't want to assume.

They can drop the bow and pull out a melee weapon, but its going to very ineffective. No where near as effective as the melee fighters great weapon. Their DPR would drop significantly.

Its a toss up between the two spells. On the one hand Stone Skin will more than double the BS's survivability (decimals round down in 5E). On the other hand Animate Object can DPR the Fighter significantly.

Try 100.

Yeah, that's 100 run throughs of the scenario.

Why does an inchwide gap let a fireball in? The wording in the PHB is to point out an area of effect can extend past things but not that any minute gap allows it too. An inch-wide gap would almost certainly provide at least 3/4ths cover, unless somehow you argue you can fire the fireball through the gap but now we're back to square one. The explosion is going to mostly impact the wall of force, and that's kind of the definition of cover. That phrasing in the PHB is supposed to handle things like "the enemies are behind a tree that gives total cover but I explode the fireball 10ft past the tree" not "a stone door slightly ajar let's all explosions in"

Don't ask me why it does. Ask the developers.

Fireball:
"The fire spreads around corners."

Cover
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect."

So yeah as long as there is a gap fireball can reach the Fighter.

Zalabim

2016-05-16, 06:35 AM

Notes: This build is dependent on winning initiative (as always) and is also based on a very controversial approach: the Wall Of Force hemisphere half an inch off the ground. Normally, I would swear up, down, and sideways that this is absolutely full cover, except maybe against AoEs...but this build focuses on using Magic Missile, which doesn't miss as long as there's a possibility for targeting...and the half inch gap exists. If you don't feel that a half-inch gap is enough for a Magic Missile to get through, or to aim one through, I totally understand.

Variant Human Evoker Wizard 10
8/16/15/20/8/8
Feats: Alert, Int +4

Round 1: Wall Of Force: hemisphere around Fighter.

Round 2-X: Magic Missile, starting with your highest level slots. Because of the Evoker 10 ability, and conversations had about it in regards to MM on Twitter, a MM V deals 7d4+42 damage, a MM IV deals 6d4+36 damage, and a MM III deals 5d4+30 damage. With the spell slots you've got at those levels (1 5th, 3 4ths, 3 3rds), you're looking at 40d4+240, which averages to 340 damage, enough to kill most any Fighter 20 without Force Resistance (or a Brooch Of Shielding, but who keeps one of those?).

In short, despite the fact that you and the Fighter are separated by something that normally constitutes full cover, you are able to attack the Fighter with a targeted spell only because Magic Missile is explicitly bull****.Notes: This one only works if they're wearing metal heavy armor (which I imagine a lot of Fighter 20s will, but it's hardly a guarantee), and of course requires that you win initiative. It's also slightly dependent on being able to combine a Shield with a Shield spell and Draconic Resilience; this seems to be fine by RAW, but I can certainly understand people not seeing it that way. In any case, a slightly lower AC might not make much of a difference, but if it does, let me know.

Variant Human Red Dragon Sorcerer 10
8/16/16/8/9/15
Feats: Alert, Lucky, War Caster
Equipment: Shield

AC: 23 (Base 13+Dex 3+Shield 2+Shield Spell 5)
HP:
Initiative: +8, Lucky reroll
Con Save: +7, advantage, Lucky reroll (maybe)

Assuming you win initiative (not a guarantee, but decent odds against most builds), you cast "Heat Metal" in a 5th level slot, targeting the Fighter's armor, with the "Extend Spell" metamagic. You then cast "Minor Illusion" using the "Quicken Spell" metamagic to create the illusion that the 5ft cube you occupy has been turned to stone. Bypassing this requires the Fighter (by RAW) to spend an action making a DC 14 Investigation check; if they fail, they believe the illusion; if they succeed, its illusory nature is revealed, and they can target you once more. Even assuming they always make the check (+11 for an EK, Lucky Reroll, whatever), that still wastes one of their actions, and requires then to use Action Surge to attack me before I teleport away...and they're getting a maximum of what, 5 attacks? Between my AC and my Con save, the spell might still be up when my second turn comes up (that's a bit maybe, though; I must admit, I haven't run the math yet).

If, by the start of your next turn, Heat Metal V is still active and you're still alive, Dimension Door away, using Subtle Spell if necessary to avoid grapple issues.

Until the Fighter can either end your Concentration or doff the armor, they are taking 5d8+2 fire damage every round for the next 20 rounds, which averages just shy of 500 HP of damage...and more than enough to kill most Fighters even if they have a way to give themselves Fire Resistance. This potential avenue of surviving can be cut off by using Empowered Spell on the Heat Metal spell in addition to the Extend Spell, although whether you have to spend a Sorcery point to reroll per round or per spell is a different argument (and I think RAW favors per round).

For the wizard, Total Cover certainly blocks Magic Missile from working. If you could angle Fireball to spread in around total cover, it would still qualify for 3/4 cover and the bonus to dexterity saves.

For the Sorcerer, the Elven Champion isn't wearing metal armor, but that doesn't matter anyway since you can't cast Heat Metal. Further, if you quicken a cantrip, you can't cast another spell with your action except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. You'd have to quicken your main spell and cast a cantrip as your action, so you couldn't extend Heat Metal. But again, you can't cast Heat Metal. It isn't on your list.

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 06:50 AM

That 45% chance was without Blade Song. I've already said that the Fighter wins if it wins initiative. If the Blade Singer wins initiative its a whole other matter.

The chance to knock the character down is the same chance of hitting with a regular attack times the chance of the character making the saving throw. Fully buffed the Fighter has a 16% chance to hit the BS with a regular attack. Then the BS can make a DC 19 Strength saving throw. Its only 5% but that does affect the chances. 0.16 * 0.95 = 15.2% chance to knock the BS down. That's 1 in 8 chance to knock the BS down. Remember the BS can simply stand up on their turn for 25 feet of movement (because they have 50 move speed). The Fighter can only do this 6 times if they don't use their superiority dice for anything else.

Fighter has +11 to Athletics checks (+6 prof, +5 str). Wizard has +7 to Acrobatics checks (+4 prof, +3 dex) and Advantage.
On average, the Wizard needs to roll 14.5 or higher, in order to not be knocked down. That means the Wizard has a 47.4375% chance of staying on his feet with Blade Song active.

RickAllison

2016-05-16, 06:54 AM

Fighter has +11 to Athletics checks (+6 prof, +5 str). Wizard has +7 to Acrobatics checks (+4 prof, +3 dex) and Advantage.
On average, the Wizard needs to roll 14.5 or higher, in order to not be knocked down. That means the Wizard has a 47.4375% chance of staying on his feet with Blade Song active.

And that's his issue, he was still looking at it for the BM build's Tripping attack rather than just shoving.

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 07:09 AM

And that's his issue, he was still looking at it for the BM build's Tripping attack rather than just shoving.

But he wasn't and that is my issue. It was very clear back then when he first stated that there was a 45% chance it wouldn't work that it was all about shoving.
But the math showed that course of action made it unlikely for the Bladesinger to survive one round and virtually impossible to survive two. So instead of acknowledging the issue of surviving two rounds, he spent the next few pages explaining how powerful he is on rounds 5 and 6.

mgshamster

2016-05-16, 07:09 AM

They can drop the bow and pull out a melee weapon, but its going to very ineffective. No where near as effective as the melee fighters great weapon. Their DPR would drop significantly.

Its a toss up between the two spells. On the one hand Stone Skin will more than double the BS's survivability (decimals round down in 5E). On the other hand Animate Object can DPR the Fighter significantly.

Yeah, that's 100 run throughs of the scenario.

Heads up - he's actually trying to run the scenario 100 times. He's asking you which spell you're going to cast so he can run the scenario.

You have to decide so he can run the scenario.

Gwendol

2016-05-16, 07:22 AM

That 45% chance was without Blade Song. I've already said that the Fighter wins if it wins initiative. If the Blade Singer wins initiative its a whole other matter.

The chance to knock the character down is the same chance of hitting with a regular attack times the chance of the character making the saving throw. Fully buffed the Fighter has a 16% chance to hit the BS with a regular attack. Then the BS can make a DC 19 Strength saving throw. Its only 5% but that does affect the chances. 0.16 * 0.95 = 15.2% chance to knock the BS down. That's 1 in 8 chance to knock the BS down. Remember the BS can simply stand up on their turn for 25 feet of movement (because they have 50 move speed). The Fighter can only do this 6 times if they don't use their superiority dice for anything else.

Isn't the fighter a champion? Also, shoving prone is done in place of an attack, no superiority die expended. It's an athletics check.

Also, as noted, you need to actually say what spells to use. Time to nail it down.

smcmike

2016-05-16, 07:31 AM

Isn't the fighter a champion? Also, shoving prone is done in place of an attack, no superiority die expended. It's an athletics check.

Also, as noted, you need to actually say what spells to use. Time to nail it down.

To be completely fair to NewDM, there have been a couple of different fighter builds proposed, and he's been trying to counter each of them on a very long thread. A bit of confusion is natural.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 07:31 AM

Heads up - he's actually trying to run the scenario 100 times. He's asking you which spell you're going to cast so he can run the scenario.

You have to decide so he can run the scenario.

Indeed I am, and I've basically reached the point where I can't continue without knowing if you're using Stoneskin or Animate Objects; to be clear, I've reached the point where you cast the Concentration buff, causing the WoF to fall.

In addition to knowing which Concentration spell you'd like to use, I'd also like to know whether or not you'd like to spend any spell slots on AoE spells while the Fighter is trapped within the WoF.

EDIT: Incidentally, the way I'm ruling the thing about the hemispherical WoF interacting with AoEs is that it usually provides total cover, but only provides 3/4 cover against AoEs with some kind of "spread around corners" thing.

Gwendol

2016-05-16, 07:52 AM

To be completely fair to NewDM, there have been a couple of different fighter builds proposed, and he's been trying to counter each of them on a very long thread. A bit of confusion is natural.

Not quite. Even a BM can shove prone rather than spend a die on a trip attack.

Moo, I'm Human

2016-05-16, 09:15 AM

Now that we've gone off track with wizards, might as well do Clerics too. Banishment. Move back. Hope to survive the following attacks. Repeat. Could he fail enough saves to get through Indomitable?

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 09:39 AM

A Cleric might be able to stand a chance, but I doubt his chances are good.
A Bane spell should land easily enough and on round 2, hit him with a Contagion (Slimy Doom). On round 3 cast Sanctuary and take the Dodge action. After round 3, keep taking the dodge action while trying to heal up via Healing Word, until Slimy Doom takes effect, and then just spam Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and Sacred Flames until it is all over.
The Cleric would have to get exceptionally Lucky for both Contagion to take effect (Bane will help, but not enough to really make the odds something to get excited about) and to live until round 3. Once round 3 comes along, I think the Cleric will be fairly safe, but it will cost a lot of spell slots to maintain that safety, so it isn't likely there will be enough in the tank to make a second attempt at Contagion.

Cybren

2016-05-16, 09:52 AM

Fireball:
"The fire spreads around corners."

Cover
"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect."

So yeah as long as there is a gap fireball can reach the Fighter.

None of that demonstrates that an inch wide gap constitutes a corner, nor does it demonstrate how the wall of force wouldn't apply half or three quarters cover even if it did.

MaxWilson

2016-05-16, 10:42 AM

Skylivedk

2016-05-16, 12:50 PM

I loved your wordplay--but Teleportation circle only opens a door within the portal, it doesn't suck creatures through the door.

But they can be tricked to go through, right?

PHB, p. 282: "As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice w hose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane o f existence as you. A shimmering portal opens within the circle you drew and remains open until the end o f your next turn. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet o f the destination circle or in the nearest unoccupied space if
that space is occupied."

So with Hallucinatory Terrain/other illusions, this is possible.. Hm.. I hope someone brought the big bag of shenanigans today.

For a reasonable reprocessing fee.

Excellent! What if I could show that the teleportation circle is entirely removable? The volcano will be as good as new!

None of that demonstrates that an inch wide gap constitutes a corner, nor does it demonstrate how the wall of force wouldn't apply half or three quarters cover even if it did.

I guess this is a DM's call. From the current wording of Fireball, I'd let it hit the fighter in situations where he couldn't fire back.

Not quite. Even a BM can shove prone rather than spend a die on a trip attack.

I still think, he deserves some props for trying to find a way for the underdog ;)

Moo, I'm Human

2016-05-16, 05:20 PM

How does Banishment win the battle? Unless the fighter is from another plane, it's basically just a stasis spell--at best it incapacitates them for long enough for you to run away.

Wow. Well I'm dumb. I mixed the two paragraphs of description together, thinking that if they are NOT native to this plane they return, and if the ARE they stay gone. Ignore my entire previous post.

Sigreid

2016-05-16, 06:00 PM

Now that we've gone off track with wizards, might as well do Clerics too. Banishment. Move back. Hope to survive the following attacks. Repeat. Could he fail enough saves to get through Indomitable?

Cleric uses his divine intervention ability and half a dozen arch angles or arch demons manifest to slay the fighter.

RickAllison

2016-05-16, 06:12 PM

Cleric uses his divine intervention ability and half a dozen arch angles or arch demons manifest to slay the fighter.

The arch angles then proceed to destroy the world as they wonder at how they are simultaneously a curve and an angle, two mutually incompatible geometric concepts.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 06:13 PM

The arch angles then proceed to destroy the world as they wonder at how they are simultaneously a curve and an angle, two mutually incompatible geometric concepts.

Somebody clearly never read "The Line And The Dot"...

RulesJD

2016-05-16, 06:17 PM

What's the lowest minimum level needed for our wizard/warlock/whatever* to defeat one of the fighter builds posted in this thread?

*Rules: single class builds, no Schrodingers.

To recap, here are the fighter builds:

Made by JNAProductions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20756848&postcount=8)

Fighter (Champion) 20
Wood Elf

Strength 9
Dexterity 20 (14 Base, +2 Race, +4 ASIs)
Constitution 18 (14 base, +4 ASIs)
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14 (12 base, +1 Race, +1 Feat)
Charisma 12

Dex +2 (Levels 4, 6)
Sharpshooter (Level 8)
Resilient (Wsidom) (Level 12)
Con +2 (Levels 14, 16)
Mobile (level 19)

Armed with Studded Leather and a Longbow. Has the Defensive and Archery Fighting styles.

AC 18
HP 204
Move 45'

Made by Malifice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757364&postcount=74)

My Fighter 20 build is the switch hitter:

Feats/ ASI: Lucky, Alert, Resilient [wisdom], Great weapon master, Sharpshooter, +4 Strength, +2 Dex

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Wis: 14
Con: 12
Int and Cha: 8

Battlemaster: Precise strike, Tripping attack, Menacing attack, Riposte, others. Archery F/S.

Equipment: Full plate, Greatsword, Maul, Longbow

Made by MaxWilson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42)
Rolls: 13 13 8 11 12 15
Degalus Magnus Benedictus, small, solid-looking man with a square face and an open manner.
LG Human Baker/Retired soldier (Pythium army), Eldritch Knight 20
Str* 11 Dex (16) 20 Con* 14 Int 12 Wis* (13) 14 Cha 8 HP 164 [* = proficient save]
Good-natured, kind, earnest, trusting; naturally quiet, but likes to talk about his wife and kids back home to anyone who asks about them; socially-awkward, unable to let a joke die. Doesn't trust most Pythium aristocrats--"they only care about each other."
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Insight; baker's tools, poisoner's kit; Common, Dwarvish
Feats (8): Sharpshooter, Dex 16 => 18, Dex 18 => 20, Alert, Mobile, Lucky, Resilient (Wis), Warcaster
Cantrips (3): Mold Earth [for digging in fortifications], False Fetters [née Booming Blade], Prestidigitation [great for cleaning baking implements]
Spells (13): Darkness, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Shield, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fire Shield, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat*, Magic Weapon*, Blink*, Dimension Door* [* = non-evoc/abj]
Spell points: 38

Level 13 for sure, because that's when Simulacrum shenanigans come online and you get into Magic Jar, double concentration, double Counterspell, Forcecage, et al. bullcrappery.

Possibly level 11 because of the Contingency spell.

With Contingency, it doesn't matter if the Fighter (any build) wins Initiative because an EK can't Counterspell it (no casting going on). As soon as the Wizard takes damage, just pop a Resilient Sphere. So then the Fighter is stuck for the rest of that round, Wizard gets to buff up with whatever non-concentration stuff he wants to for 1 minute, then wait until his turn to pull whatever tactic he wants to (WoF shenanigans if BM/Champ, etc).

EK could try to Dispel it, not 100% sure if that works because it calls out Disintegrate as getting rid of the sphere (as similar spells require a special spell to bypass and you all apparently want to pull from other spells to rule how they interact, so no Dispelling a Resilient Sphere and an EK can't get Disintegrate). Also would need to rule on whether the Wizard can hire someone to carry around his body + Magic Jar, etc.

So level 11 is certain against BM/Champ (due to Initiative no longer mattering) and possible against EK (would have to rule that it could Dispel a Res Sphere).

Level 13+ is 100% certainly against even an EK due to Simulacrum breaking the Action economy and Forcecage.

JNAProductions

2016-05-16, 06:19 PM

Erm... Winning initiative does not grant victory to a Wizard. It grants a chance at surviving longer.

AV is running the numbers right now on exactly how screwed the wizard is.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 06:21 PM

Erm... Winning initiative does not grant victory to a Wizard. It grants a chance at surviving longer.

AV is running the numbers right now on exactly how screwed the wizard is.

If this is in response to the stuff about level 13 builds, I think they would stand a better chance; the extra spell levels and class features (such as extra ASI) make it much more capable, especially if they pour themselves into the fight ala the old "5 minute adventuring day".

JNAProductions

2016-05-16, 06:22 PM

RulesJD

2016-05-16, 06:38 PM

It's about the level 11 build. Not a whole lot extra there.

Edit: My question is, when can a Wizard reliably beat a Fighter 20? (Say, 65% of the time or more.) It's going to be lower than level 20-Wizards can nova a lot harder than Fighters-but what's the exact point? (And build?)

At level 11, because Contingency negates the ability to win Initiative against BMs/Champs which is 66% of Fighters right there. It's a spell that needs to be abused by Wizards way, way more often.

Also, I completely forgot about Rope Trick (thanks previous poster) making the fight more towards the Wizard. It's Invisible (and EK build doesn't have See Invisibility), so you can't Dispel it. Wizard goes in to buff, ducking out for Attack spells (presuming a buff is Greater Invis then even the EK can't Ready an Action, at best it's 1 hit/spell that will get Counterspelled anyways.

Alternatively, Wizard ducks out (doesn't say how long the rope has to be only up to 60ft, so just make it like 3ft), casts Animate Objects, tells them to attack the Fighter, and ducks back in to the hole.

krugaan

2016-05-16, 06:46 PM

Alternatively, Wizard ducks out (doesn't say how long the rope has to be only up to 60ft, so just make it like 3ft), casts Animate Objects, tells them to attack the Fighter, and ducks back in to the hole.

Pretty much ... again, any counters to this?

I'd prefer it on high... since too low and the fighter can just get in the space with the wizard and beat him senseless.

Shaofoo

2016-05-16, 06:52 PM

Level 13 for sure, because that's when Simulacrum shenanigans come online and you get into Magic Jar, double concentration, double Counterspell, Forcecage, et al. bullcrappery.

Possibly level 11 because of the Contingency spell.

With Contingency, it doesn't matter if the Fighter (any build) wins Initiative because an EK can't Counterspell it (no casting going on). As soon as the Wizard takes damage, just pop a Resilient Sphere. So then the Fighter is stuck for the rest of that round, Wizard gets to buff up with whatever non-concentration stuff he wants to for 1 minute, then wait until his turn to pull whatever tactic he wants to (WoF shenanigans if BM/Champ, etc).

EK could try to Dispel it, not 100% sure if that works because it calls out Disintegrate as getting rid of the sphere (as similar spells require a special spell to bypass and you all apparently want to pull from other spells to rule how they interact, so no Dispelling a Resilient Sphere and an EK can't get Disintegrate). Also would need to rule on whether the Wizard can hire someone to carry around his body + Magic Jar, etc.

So level 11 is certain against BM/Champ (due to Initiative no longer mattering) and possible against EK (would have to rule that it could Dispel a Res Sphere).

Level 13+ is 100% certainly against even an EK due to Simulacrum breaking the Action economy and Forcecage.

I just want to add that both Magic Jar and Simulacrum requires expensive material components (and the latter has the material component being used up and has a casting time of 12 hours). By virtue of being a Wizard both Magic Jar and Simulacrum is useless since it is impossible to cast. You could wish for the spell components but that bumps it up to level 17 and the usual Wish shenanigans.

Also the COntigency spell can only target yourself. not others. It even says so in the end of the Contigency spell so you'll be able to have a free minute to buff yourself but the Fighter is free to do whatever he wants, including moving the sphere. Of course COntigency also has expensive material components as well.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 06:53 PM

Pretty much ... again, any counters to this?

Going out on a limb here, but...unless the Wizard can pop out of the rope trick, cast a spell, and pop back in every round, this isn't going to work out too well for them, and even then, it's questionable. Yes, it gives them a chance to buff themselves, and they can spend a spell slot or two on Animate Objects to give the Fighter something to do while the Wizard is hiding, but Rope Trick "only" lasts an hour, and leads directly into the Fighter. Would definitely have to run the numbers, but I imagine the Champion's regen would outpace the wizard's DPR.

Also, while the EK couldn't "see invisibility", they could definitely detect magic, which should be sufficient for a Dispel Magic; the Wizard could counter this, if they were outside to see it happen, but they're not, so oh well.

MaxWilson

2016-05-16, 07:24 PM

Pretty much ... again, any counters to this?

I'd prefer it on high... since too low and the fighter can just get in the space with the wizard and beat him senseless.

Yeah, the EK doesn't care about Animate Objects. He just casts Expeditious Retreat and either kills them all or waits them out. They are slow and can't catch him.

BTW, Dispel Magic, unlike Counterspell, has no "that you can see" precondition. By strict RAW your Rope Trick can be dispelled by the fighter. DM's call what happens then--is the wizard banished into extradimensional space, or does he fall to the ground?

Mellack

2016-05-16, 08:14 PM

And that's certainly a fair assumption. Overall, I believe this would result in disadvantage on the attack rolls (for knowing what square to attack, but not actually being able to see what you're really hitting); +11 w/ Disadvantage vs AC 21 misses 69.75% of the time, hits 30%, and crits 0.25% of the time...but that's assuming the Fighter and I both have Lucky dice to cancel each other out with. A Fighter with Lucky probably used one on Initiative (and this situation is assuming I won initiative), leaving them two and me two, so no super-advantage on any attacks.

We can expect...let's say three attacks to hit if the Fighter has the Lucky feat and 2 Luck points left; if he doesn't have Lucky, we can expect maybe 1 or 2 to hit; with Con saves at +7 and advantage on the save, we're looking at a 99% chance of making the save as long as the Fighter's attack didn't do more than 21 damage (certainly not impossible, particularly for a Battlemaster or Monster Hunter).

Again, I'm hardly suggesting either of these are guarantees. But at the very least, they only depend on a few particular rolls going their way...and one of those is initiative, which they don't need if they have a way to get a surprise round (so, if the Fighter doesn't have Alert).

Sorry, I am a little late to this part of the conversation. Wouldn't the first attack interact with the illusion and end it? Meaning all remaining attacks are normal?

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 08:26 PM

Sorry, I am a little late to this part of the conversation. Wouldn't the first attack interact with the illusion and end it? Meaning all remaining attacks are normal?

"I'm afb at the moment, but I don't recall any rule saying that interacting with an illusion causes it to fall; granted, I also didn't check to see if Minor Illusion is a Concentration spell, which would be another way to force it down. Of course, the point is moot for this particular build: it was dependent on a Sorcerer using Heat Metal with Metamagic attached, and Heat Metal is not a Sorcerer spell, or so I've been informed (again, afb).

Granted, that means a Bard X/Sorcerer 2+ cpuld pull this off, but then we're outside the realm of straight class vs straight class. A straight Bard, if they could survive one round of attacks from the Fighter, could pull this plan off, but they would only get 10 rounds of 5d8 out of it, which averages to 225...useful, but definitely within the realm of HP+Second Wind. They would want to add some other spells or attacks to make sure the Fighter goes down, and that places them at risk of getting turned into puncussions/mincemeat.

charcoalninja

2016-05-16, 09:12 PM

Mellack

2016-05-16, 09:34 PM

The ranged fighter will drop him. He has no need to get into the spirit guardians range, and moves faster.

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 09:39 PM

The ranged fighter will drop him. He has no need to get into the spirit guardians range, and moves faster.

He would have a hell of a time trying to get out of Spirit Guardians range considering it halves his speed.

Mellack

2016-05-16, 10:42 PM

He would have a hell of a time trying to get out of Spirit Guardians range considering it halves his speed.

Not really. If needed, use an action surge to do a dash. That gets him out of it and plus some. Then he can do a regular move, and even another dash for safety. I figure that puts him 45x2 + 15(difficult terrain) + 15 = 120 feet away. How does the caster catch him?

MaxWilson

2016-05-16, 10:47 PM

I think a Wizard / Cleric multiclass making use of Spirit Guardians + Sanctuary abuse might be able to pull it off.

Thoughts are:
Cleric 5 / Wiz 5 (abjurer) to spirit guardians Fighter to death. 20 AC, Fighter must succeed a will save to attack him every attack and wis saves 2 / round or keep eating the 3d8 radiant damage (IIRC). So 6d8 damage each round, the Cleric can use his reaction to shield as needed and has the constantly refilling temp HP each round he does so to help soak the damage if Fighter gets through.

A quick thought, I'll look at dropping a full build soon. Thinking Resilient Con and Warcaster for the 2 feats.

What constantly refilling temp HP?

3d8 is laughably poor damage against the fighter, some (all?) of the fighters posted in this thread have excellent Wisdom saves and you've only got DC 14-15ish, you'll lose concentration shortly after the fighter burns through the Arcane Ward on his second attack, he doesn't have to get within your Spirit Guardians radius, and he has more HP than you anyway.

That strategy is unfortunately hopeless.

Not really. If needed, use an action surge to do a dash. That gets him out of it and plus some. Then he can do a regular move, and even another dash for safety. I figure that puts him 45x2 + 15(difficult terrain) + 15 = 120 feet away. How does the caster catch him?

Yes, or he could throw a net on the cleric/wizard, or Push the cleric/wizard prone, attack twice and then him again backwards followed by using his 20' movement (half of 40' due to Mobile) to retreat, thus ending 30' from the prone cleric/wizard, who needs to spend 15' of his own movement just standing up and who also took about 20 points of damage and had to make two concentration checks. Arguably, once the fighter is at 15'+, his speed goes back up to 40' (ask your DM) which means he could then Dash backwards using Expeditious Retreat to wind up 70' away from the cleric/wizard this round. And of course he gets a free 30' teleport when he action surges.

RickAllison

2016-05-16, 10:53 PM

Here is how I would win with a level 10 Wizard:

Abjuror 10, Svirnefblin, grab the Svirnefblin Magic feat. Use the at-will Nondetection to keep Arcane Ward charged while begging the fighter not to kill him while pledging his fealty. Toss in some spells like Shield to hold out for a while and it just might look pitiful enough to work!

Work as the fighter's lackey until a few levels are gained, then kill him in his sleep with a nova of spells in more advantageous circumstances.

Giant2005

2016-05-16, 11:06 PM

Not really. If needed, use an action surge to do a dash. That gets him out of it and plus some. Then he can do a regular move, and even another dash for safety. I figure that puts him 45x2 + 15(difficult terrain) + 15 = 120 feet away. How does the caster catch him?

As far as I am concerned, any course of action that inspires the Fighter to blow his action surge on a Dash is a big win. The burst damage from Action Surge is the main contributer to all of these builds dying - getting one out of the way without it contributing any form of burst vastly increases your chances of winning.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-16, 11:35 PM

I'm not even seeing why he would run; the person suggesting this build is talking about taking Resilient (Con) and Warcaster, which places their absolute maximum Wisdom at 19, for a DC of 16; the Champion Fighter (the one you're talking about) makes that save 87.75% of the time, and has Indomitable for some saves. I'm pretty sure RAW is SG doesn't pop Sanctuary if SG is cast first, but I'm pretty sure RAI would have the continuous damage say "goodbye Sanctuary, but let's ignore that. Assuming Spirit Guardians being active isn't ruled as violating the Sanctuary, and assuming the Fighter isn't using any uses of Indomitable, the Wizard/Cleric is still probably boned:

Assuming we're talking a Cleric/Wizard in full plate with a shield, we're looking at 25 AC after Shield spell. The ranged Fighter makes sure he's not in melee with the Cleric/Wizard and proceeds to shoot at them with an Action Surge: normally, their average Damage Per Attack against AC 25 would be 4.95 ({[11*0]+[6*9.5]+[3*14]}/20), but Sanctuary being up cuts that down to 4.343625. In the first two rounds of Action Surging, that Champion archer deals you 69.498 total damage, assuming Full Plate, Shield, Shield spell, and Sanctuary (and assuming no uses of Indomitable to reroll Wisdom saves). After that, their DPR is reduced to a measly 17.3745.

Let's assume you're a Cleric 5/Wizard 5; a decent split. Let's assume you're a Hill Dwarf who put a 15 in Con at character creation, for an 18 total. Let's assume average HP rolls. You're looking at 80 HP before healing spells and your abjurer shield. Assuming your Int is 15, you're looking at 12 HP from that per round as long as you can keep re-casting shield. Let's also assume you're using your high-level slots to cast Cure Wounds. Assuming 1st/2nd/3rd lvl slots (other than the ones for Santuary and Spirit Guardians) are used for Shield, and 4th/5th lvl slots are used for Cure Wounds, you'll be getting quite a few extra HP from your spells.

Let's see how far this gets you.

Fighter makes 8 attacks, dealing 34.749 damage (after Shield I). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 57.251/80 HP. Caster uses Cure Wounds IV, healing 22 HP (4d8+4) to 79.251/80 HP.

Fighter makes 8 attacks, dealing 34.749 damage (after Shield I). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 56.502/80 HP. Caster uses Cure Wounds IV, healing 22 HP (4d8+4) to 78.502/80 HP.

Fighter makes 4 attacks, dealing 17.3745 damage (after Shield I). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 73.1275/80 HP.

Fighter makes 4 attacks, dealing 17.3745 damage (after Shield II). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 67.753/80 HP.

Fighter makes 4 attacks, dealing 17.3745 damage (after Shield II). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 62.3785/80 HP.

Fighter makes 4 attacks, dealing 17.3745 damage (after Shield II). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 57.004/80 HP. Caster uses Cure Wound IV, healing 22 HP (4d8+4) to 79.004/80 HP.

Fighter makes 4 attacks, dealing 17.3745 damage (after Shield III). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 73.6925/80 HP.

Fighter makes 4 attacks, dealing 17.3745 damage (after Shield III). Accounting for Abjurer's Shield temp HP, caster is now at 73.6925/80 HP.

I would like to pause at this point in round 8 to let you know that the Cleric/Wizard, according to the multiclassing caster chart, has 2 5th lvl spells left, which they'll either want to use on Cure Wounds V, or re-upping their "Spirit Guardians" and Sanctuary spells. Let's see where the Fighter stands after all this time: assuming Spirit Guardians was cast before Sanctuary, we're looking at 9 rounds of Spirit Guardians so far (assuming that 40 attempted attacks hasn't popped it by this point, which probably isn't a huge stretch with Con 18, proficiency, and advantage). As mentioned earlier, the Fighter will make their save 87.75% of the time and fail 12.25% of the time; this means that each round, Spirit Guardians deals an average of 7.576875 damage ({12.25*13.5}+{87.75*6.75}/100). Even if we ignore that this isn't anywhere near enough to overcome the Fighter's Survivor Regen, or the fact that this Fighter isn't even using any uses of Indomitable, that's still 9 rounds of damage...that barely gets the Fighter below 70% health.

<sarcasm>Clap. Clap. Clap.</sarcasm>

And that's ignoring that the average damage from Spirit Guardians (which can't be supplemented with other things without Sanctuary popping) isn't even enough to overcome Survivor. But hey, once that falls, the Wizard can let loose with cantrips as well! But let's see what kind of full attack the Fighter will have available once Sanctuary is gone and you're out of spells for Shield: Average Damage Per Attack is 7.325
({[6*0]+[11*9.5]+[3*14]}/20), putting the Fighter's DPR at 29.3...and there's no Abjurer Shield to help out how. So, from the looks of things, assuming the caster blows both 5th lvl slots on Cure Wounds V for another 53 (10d8+8), the caster dies 4 rounds later.

The Fighter wins after 12 rounds of attacking, having forced the caster to burn through all their spell slots, only to still die. The Fighter never got below 60% health, never used any uses of Indomitable, and never used their Second Wind. The Fighter shrugs, uses their Second Wind, and ambles off to take a short rest after that really weird encounter where a supposedly super-smart, supposedly super-wise caster decided to challenge somebody with twice their Hit Dice in Fighter levels by pleading for mercy while a spell of their nibbled away at the Fighter's HP.

EDIT: I suppose you could make the argument that the caster forced the Fighter into melee, giving them disadvantage on attacks, but then the Fighter would Shove them prone and Grapple them (neither of which triggers Sanctuary, since they're not attacks, just things that can be used in the attack action), and then attacks them regularly anyway). Even if Shoving and Grappling trigger Sanctuary, and even if the Fighter has disadvantage anyway, it still just means the Caster lives a little while longer; they're still gonna run out of spell slots waaaaaaaaay before the Fighter runs out of Hit Points.

georgie_leech

2016-05-17, 12:00 AM

"I'm afb at the moment, but I don't recall any rule saying that interacting with an illusion causes it to fall; granted, I also didn't check to see if Minor Illusion is a Concentration spell, which would be another way to force it down. Of course, the point is moot for this particular build: it was dependent on a Sorcerer using Heat Metal with Metamagic attached, and Heat Metal is not a Sorcerer spell, or so I've been informed (again, afb).

The spell specifies that any sort of physical interaction reveals it to be an illusion, yes.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 12:14 AM

The spell specifies that any sort of physical interaction reveals it to be an illusion, yes.

That's fair. So the first attack is at disadvantage, and then since the illusion is revealed, it becomes transparent to them, and their remaining 7 attacks are executed as normal. I imagine a Valor Bard might be able to pull this plan off to some degree, but it likely wouldn't work too well; the damage is low enough per-round to survive the whole 10 rounds even if it stays up, which there isn't a huge guarantee that it will.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 12:21 AM

-snip-

Huh. Know what, I actually need to recalculate this; 87.75% is their success on Wisdom save with Indomitable or advantage, not without. Recalculating!

RulesJD

2016-05-17, 01:09 AM

I just want to add that both Magic Jar and Simulacrum requires expensive material components (and the latter has the material component being used up and has a casting time of 12 hours). By virtue of being a Wizard both Magic Jar and Simulacrum is useless since it is impossible to cast. You could wish for the spell components but that bumps it up to level 17 and the usual Wish shenanigans.

Also the COntigency spell can only target yourself. not others. It even says so in the end of the Contigency spell so you'll be able to have a free minute to buff yourself but the Fighter is free to do whatever he wants, including moving the sphere. Of course COntigency also has expensive material components as well.

He moves the sphere, so what? We're apparently in a room with no cliff to drop it off (and as I recall posters earlier claiming that because it doesn't have a fall speed it just floats there....yeah that's why those WoF arguments about moving it were wrong). Not seeing the point here when the Wizard gets to drop it on the turn they cast their Concentration spell/buff after having time to cast all of their non-concentration buffs.

It's a level 13 Wizard, they don't care about money any more.

Why would being a Wizard have anything to do with making Magic Jar + Simulacrum useless?? Throw that combo on a Divination Wizard and even with Lucky + Indomitable you're going to fail those saves against Magic Jar as you get the Simulacrum portent die as well.

I apparently can't even convince a DM that WoF can't be moved, so good luck convincing people that Dispel Magic can target an effect the creature casting it can't see.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 01:14 AM

Alright, let's recalculate, with a few new assumptions (to show that I actually have some idea of what I'm doing): we're going to assume the caster is using a 5th level Spirit Guardians instead of a 3rd level; let's also assume constant disadvantage to the Fighter's attacks, and no uses of Indomitable (which I screwed up last time, my bad).

Okay, so the Fighter's Average DPA vs AC 25 will be 4.115 ([{231}+{160*9.5}+{9*14}]/400) before Sanctuary; Sanctuary multiplies the Fighter's DPA/DPR by .65, since they can expect to bypass it only 65% of the time (making DPA 2.67475). Assuming no Cure spells this time, only Shields, Sanctuary's, and Spirit Guardians, let's look at the round to round.

Because of the order of operations, there will be a point where Sanctuary pops (when Spirit Guardians V is cast for the second time); at that time, the Fighter's Average DPA will reset to 4.115. There's also a time when Sanctuary will be active, but Shield will not be available (due to running out of spell slots); DPA during this time is 3.0915625 ([{204*0}+{187*9.5}+{9*14}]/400), taking Sanctuary into account.

Surprise Round

Caster casts "Spirit Guardians V".

Round 1

Caster casts "Sanctuary I", gaining 12 temp HP. Fighter is reduced to 188.8125/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks/Action Surges for 8 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield I); including the temp HP from Shield and Sanctuary, the caster is at 82.602/80 HP.

Round 2

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 173.625/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks/Action Surges for 8 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield I); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 73.204/80 HP.

Round 3

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 158.4375/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield I); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 74.505/80 HP.

Round 4

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 143.25/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield II); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 75.806/80 HP. Fighter uses Second Wind as a bonus action to heal 25.5 HP (1d10+20).

Round 5

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 153.5625/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield II); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 77.107/80 HP.

Round 6

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 138.375/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield II); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 78.408/80 HP.

Round 7

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 123.1875/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield III); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 79.709/80 HP.

Round 8

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 108/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield III); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 81.01/80 HP.

Round 9

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 92.8125/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield III); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 82.311/80 HP. Fighter's Survivor Regen kicks in, healing 9 HP.

Round 10

Spirit Guardians V ends. Caster casts Spirit Guardians V, which pops Sanctuary I. Fighter is reduced to 95.625/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield IV); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 77.851/80 HP.

Round 11

Caster casts Sanctuary IV. Fighter is reduced to 89.4375/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks (forcing caster to use Shield IV); including the temp HP from Shield, the caster is at 79.152/80 HP.

Caster is now out of spell slots.

Round 12

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 83.25/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 66.78575/80 HP.

Round 13

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 77.0625/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 54.4195/80 HP.

Round 14

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 70.875/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 42.05325/80 HP.

Round 15

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 64.6875/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 29.687/80 HP.

Round 16

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 58.5/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 17.32075/80 HP.

Round 17

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 52.3125/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 4.9545/80 HP.

Round 18

Caster whistles, possibly using non-offensive cantrip for something (to avoid popping Sanctuary). Fighter is reduced to 46.125/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks for 4 attacks; the caster is at 0/80 HP.

This did surprisingly well: this build, assuming the Fighter had constant disadvantage, assuming it spams Shield, assuming a a 5/5 split in levels, and assuming Full Plate and Shield, managed to spend every last one of its spell slots reducing the Fighter to ~22% of his normal health. Now, I didn't really bother figuring out if the Fighter could've ever forced Spirit Guardians to pop, but I'm pretty sure it was fairly unlikely; with a 65% chance of bypassing Sanctuary, and nearly 100% chance the caster will make the save anyway, it's a moot point.

Still, fighter wins.

JoeJ

2016-05-17, 02:14 AM

He would have a hell of a time trying to get out of Spirit Guardians range considering it halves his speed.

The easiest way to get out of range is never get into range in the first place.

Giant2005

2016-05-17, 02:32 AM

The easiest way to get out of range is never get into range in the first place.

That is true, but I figured the Cleric would probably have the same courtesy of being close range just like the other little guys did. Without the fight taking place at close range, no pure class is going to stand up to the Fighter's superior range - it wouldn't even be worth investigating.

Zalabim

2016-05-17, 04:16 AM

I see you do have a surprise round and winning initiative in order to have spirit guardians and sanctuary up before the fighter's first attack. It looks like you're counting Shield as 12 HP on the Abjurerer's Arcane Ward. The ward only starts with 12 HP. It recovers 2*spell slot HP each time an abjuration is cast, so Shield recovers 2, 4, 6, etc HP per cast. A hill dwarf 5/5 wizard/cleric with resilient and war caster is only going to have a maximum of 16 Wisdom for a spell save of 15, not 16. Spirit Guardians lasts up to 10 minutes, so if concentration doesn't drop it's only Sanctuary that has to be recast. I bet with the proper arcane ward, the fight ends much faster.

Using Rope Trick for a safe ground is interesting. You'd have to pull the rope up with you to keep the Fighter out, as well as make the rope short enough to climb into the space in one round. There's definitely a risk of the fighter just leaving to wait you out, if that's what you go for. The champion is going to win an attrition war and isn't really threatened by animated objects. I'm not sure what tactic would be used on it. The EK is going to counter Rope Trick easily, so it doesn't really have any use there. The tactic may work against the battle master build. In any event, you're at least looking at a readied attack when you climb out to cast a spell, and that could knock you off the rope.

You can make the rope trick higher if you start with Wall of Force to buy some time for climbing. Resilient Sphere won't let you rope trick very far. There's nothing about Dispel Magic or Resilient Sphere to indicate that the former would not work on the latter. I'd take claims of its invulnerability to dispel magic with a grain of salt. You can't take damage from anything outside the sphere, so I think that would include damage from hitting the ground. The sphere is weightless and can be picked up and carried by another creature. It sounds like you wouldn't even fall on your own, and couldn't be hurt even if you were hurled off a tower. It might make using it for buffs before fighting a little more difficult though.

If you use Magic Jar, you're probably going to die. I wonder what the chances are all around for dying (fighter breaks jar before possession), killing the fighter and dying (due to failing a DC 20 charisma save), and killing the fighter and not dying (passing the DC 20 charisma save.) How would you commit suicide slowly enough to get out of the body and not let the fighter escape the death trap? There must be some way.

charcoalninja

2016-05-17, 04:51 AM

The ranged fighter will drop him. He has no need to get into the spirit guardians range, and moves faster.

Yeah the Archer would be a big issue for sure. Especially since I want to do it with a dwarf. I'll probably need 2 strategies but it's dicey on if he can manage the Archer (not likely right now).

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 05:08 AM

I see you do have a surprise round and winning initiative in order to have spirit guardians and sanctuary up before the fighter's first attack.

Yeah, it's basically necessary. It's worth noting that, with how "close" the build gets, it's only if they manage to both surprise the Fighter (not a guarantee, but it's possible since this Champion Archer doesn't have Alert) and win initiative (a much more difficult task; the Champion Archer has Dex 20 and half proficiency, while this build has, very likely, Dex 8, and no spare feats for Alert).

It looks like you're counting Shield as 12 HP on the Abjurerer's Arcane Ward. The ward only starts with 12 HP. It recovers 2*spell slot HP each time an abjuration is cast, so Shield recovers 2, 4, 6, etc HP per cast.

I wasn't aware of this prior to you posting this; rather, I was under the impression that every Abjuration casting simply added 12 temp HP to the total. But upon re-reading the ability, it looks like it's a 1/long rest ability, but can be recharged up to the original amount by casting additional abjuration spells. Yes, this should make the fight go much faster when the shields are adding less than 12 temp HP per casting.

A hill dwarf 5/5 wizard/cleric with resilient and war caster is only going to have a maximum of 16 Wisdom for a spell save of 15, not 16.

Once again, I must offer my apologies; I originally calculated assuming Variant Human was using their racial feat on one of those slots, giving them an extra ASI to spread around. That's what I get for not double-checking these things...in any case, the lower duration is gonna make the Fighter side of things go much quicker.

Spirit Guardians lasts up to 10 minutes, so if concentration doesn't drop it's only Sanctuary that has to be recast. I bet with the proper arcane ward, the fight ends much faster.

...how did I miss that? I looked up both spells to make sure! *rechecks book* 10 minutes...okay, that makes things a bit better, and means the Sanctuary is never down.

I'm off to recalculate...again...because apparently I just can't pay any attention to what I'm doing. I'm glad there's diligent posters out there able and willing to point out my **** ups.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 05:12 AM

Also, couple more things before I get to calculations:

1) If this Cleric was a Life Cleric, would it be viable to use some higher-level slots for Cure Wounds spells, instead of Shield spells? I'm feeling pretty iffy on it, myself.

2) Unless I hear back from NewDM sometime soon, I'm gonna move forward with the "100 Fights" thing under the assumption that the Bladesinger's Concentration buff is Stoneskin.

EDIT:

3) Apparently I was completely screwing up the Fighter's DPA/DPR as well. Disadvantage, +13...and yet nearly 50% hits? Against AC 25? I have so little idea what I was thinking...

Shaofoo

2016-05-17, 05:19 AM

He moves the sphere, so what? We're apparently in a room with no cliff to drop it off (and as I recall posters earlier claiming that because it doesn't have a fall speed it just floats there....yeah that's why those WoF arguments about moving it were wrong). Not seeing the point here when the Wizard gets to drop it on the turn they cast their Concentration spell/buff after having time to cast all of their non-concentration buffs.

I don't need to move it, the Fighter can just get within optimal shooting distance while you are busy buffing yourself, the Fighter is free to do whatever he wants as well. Also I would like to say that Contigency also uses up two slots upon activation but that is minor.

It's a level 13 Wizard, they don't care about money any more.

Why would being a Wizard have anything to do with making Magic Jar + Simulacrum useless?? Throw that combo on a Divination Wizard and even with Lucky + Indomitable you're going to fail those saves against Magic Jar as you get the Simulacrum portent die as well.

Because a Wizard lacks wealth generation (all classes do). By virtue of being a Wizard he has no way to make the expensive spell components he needs to actually cast the spells. And I know you'll say stuff like "so then the Fighter should not have any weapons either!" but I'll say that the classes does give everyone some gear to start off. People really seem to take expensive material components for granted.

So a level 13 Wizard should care about money because the class doesn't grant him any wealth, he has as much money now as when he started at level 1. The only way they cah get money is by exploiting the world.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 05:59 AM

Alright, so to recap: a hill Dwarf Life Cleric 5/Abjurer Wizard 5 with 80 HP, Con 18, Wis 16, AC 20, Resilient (Con), and Warcaster is the build trying its best to kill the Fighter at this point in time. We're assuming that Spirit Guardians V goes up in a surprise round, and that Sanctuary I will be cast on the caster's first turn (and whenever it needs to be renewed). Assumptions will be that the Fighter has constant disadvantage to attack rolls, and never tries to change this.

Before we get to the round-by-round, I want to point out that these builds have a huge gap in their initiative bonuses, assuming the caster build didn't dump Wisdom With no lucky rerolls watching their back, this Wizard has to hope that they can win initiative to get Sanctuary up, or this fight gets a lot shorter...but the caster only wins initiative 13.75% of the time; the rest of the time, the Fighter's full Action Surge DPR gets in without Sanctuary in the way.

Fighter DPA (w/ Shield spell): 1.4175 ([{319*0}+{72*9.5}+{9*14}]/400)*.7
Fighter DPA (w/o Shield spell): 3.329375 ([{204*0}+{187*9.5}+{9*14}]/400)*.7

Spirit Guardians DPR: 14.625 ([{6*5*4.5}+{14*5*4.5*.5}]/20)

Surprise Round

Caster casts Spirit Guardians V.

Round 1

Caster casts Sanctuary I. Fighter reduced to 189.375/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks/Action Surges 8 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield I, activating Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 80.66/80 HP.

Round 2

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 174.75/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks/Action Surges 8 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield I, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 71.32/80 HP.

Round 3

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 160.125/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield I, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 67.65/80 HP.

Round 4

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 145.5/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield II, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 65.98/80 HP.

Round 5

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 130.875/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield II, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 64.31/80 HP.

Round 6

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 116.25/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield II, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 62.64/80 HP.

Round 7

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 110.625/204 HP (after Survivor)

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield III, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 62.97/80 HP.

Round 8

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 105/204 HP (after Survivor).

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield III, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 63.3/80 HP. Survivor on for the rest of the fight.

Round 9

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 99.375/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield III, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 63.63/80 HP.

Round 10

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 93.75/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield IV, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 65.96/80 HP.

Round 11

Caster casts Sanctuary V. Fighter reduced to 88.125/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield IV, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 68.29/80 HP.

Round 12

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 82.5/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks (forcing caster to cast Shield V, revitalizing Abjurer's Ward). Caster reduced to 72.62/80 HP.

Caster is now out of spells.

Round 13

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 76.875/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks. Caster reduced to 59.3025/80 HP.

Round 14

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 71.25/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks. Caster reduced to 45.985/80 HP.

Round 15

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 65.625/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks. Caster reduced to 32.6675/80 HP.

Round 16

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 60/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks. Caster reduced to 19.35/80 HP.

Round 17

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 54.375/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks. Caster reduced to 6.0325/80 HP.

Round 18

Caster twiddles thumbs. Fighter reduced to 48.75/204 HP.

Fighter Attacks 4 attacks. Caster reduced to 0/80 HP.

Round 19-24

Fighter waits for Survivor to kick him back up to 102/204 before using Second Wind, bringing him up to 127.5/204.

Alright, I'm pretty sure nothing got screwed up this time...

Zalabim

2016-05-17, 06:23 AM

For Cure Wounds vs Shield, I'm afraid you'll have to calculate that yourself. Each shield reduces average damage and prevents 2 damage per spell level. Each cure heals (1d8+1)per spell level +5 flat (from 2 + Wisdom modifier). They both have to be balanced with slots for Sanctuary, since you only get a total of 15. It also looks like the channel divinity could be used (from Life, it heals up to 25 HP up to half HP), or the Tempest reaction ability if you go Tempest instead. Sanctuary is also an abjuration, so it would trigger Arcane Ward as well.

I believe the RAW on shoves and grapples is that since they are attacks, they can be redirected by Mirror Image or blocked by Sanctuary, but they don't hit, so they cannot pop mirror images. Mirror Image can still be ignored by blindness which has no effect on the ability check.

If you reference the starting equipment guide, then a level 11-16 character would have 5250-7500 gold beyond starting equipment. A level 5-10 character would have 525-750, so wouldn't necessarily have plate armor. I think we can allow the wizard access to expensive components, just to see what can really happen.

You cast magic jar, possess someone, and use their body to carry the container and your body around until you find the fighter. You use your action to return to the container, your turn ends and your victim spills the beans about being stuck in an evil jar. The victim or the fighter destroy the container on their turn. You return to your body.

You cast magic jar and you sit and wait for the fighter to come within 100 ft of you and your comatose body. He spots your body before coming into range. You die.

You cast magic jar and sit and wait for the fighter to come within line of sight of you, the space is smaller than 100 ft, so you get to try possessing before the fighter knows what's up. The fighter has to roll a charisma save, you use portent, the fighter uses indomitable and lucky if he has it, and you can only use portent once per turn, before the roll. Champion rolls +1 against DC 15, passes 35% of the time. EK rolls -1, twice thanks to lucky, against DC 15, passes 43.75% of the time. BM rolls same as the EK, 43.75% passing. The fighter is now immune to your possession attempts for 24 hours and knows he just used indomitable. You die.

If you successfully possess the fighter, you should pick up your body, carry it away and destroy the container from over 100 feet away. You return to your body and the fighter dies. If you just get the fighter's body killed, you'd have to make a DC 15 charisma save or you die. If the fighter beat your initiative and killed your comatose body in round one (this is a deathmatch, after all), you'd still die.

So if you can set up in a location where the fighter has to come into range, doesn't know there's a Magic Jar, and you can use Portent while in a jar (since Portent is not an action), you can have over a 50% chance of killing the fighter as a level 11 Diviner, with Magic Jar. You only have to have 16 Int.

If the fighter does recognize the magic jar, he can try to break the container before you get to possess him, then your spell ends, or the EK can use Darkness (have to see your target), or possibly Resilient Sphere, Blink, or Dispel Magic to avoid the possession effect.

Shaofoo

2016-05-17, 07:09 AM

If you reference the starting equipment guide, then a level 11-16 character would have 5250-7500 gold beyond starting equipment. A level 5-10 character would have 525-750, so wouldn't necessarily have plate armor. I think we can allow the wizard access to expensive components, just to see what can really happen.

The guide is a suggestion for the DM, not a hard rule to follow.

But my point is if the wizard has access to expensive material components what can the fighter use with his huge amounts of wealth? If we don't give the Fighter his share of the loot then we must deny the Wizard the same, including expensive material components. Of course that will be more work but isn't the point to try to be as close to reality as possible?

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 07:28 AM

The guide is a suggestion for the DM, not a hard rule to follow.

But my point is if the wizard has access to expensive material components what can the fighter use with his huge amounts of wealth? If we don't give the Fighter his share of the loot then we must deny the Wizard the same, including expensive material components. Of course that will be more work but isn't the point to try to be as close to reality as possible?

...I find that I have to disagree with this point, or at least play Devil's Advocate: it's a fact of the system that, once your Fighter has the armor he wants and all the weapons he can carry, has basically nothing to spend his possibly hundreds of thousands of gold pieces on for himself; he could commission a base of operations, and soldiers to guard it, and give them the best armor/weapons/training he can afford with his millions of gold pieces, but none of that helps the Fighter.

On this point, we seem to be in agreement: you see that the fighter has basically nothing to spend their mountain of money on, while the various caster classes can use it for expensive material components, so you believe that this money should be unavailable for the purposes of this challenge...and on this point, I have to disagree. The relative usefulness of the Fighter's money as compared to that of the Wizard is not a result of their level difference, which is the point of this "caster 10 vs Fighter 20" challenge, so the fact that the Fighter is sitting on a mountain of useless money while the Wizard or Cleric or Warlock can afford the spells of their dreams is an advantage for the Wizard, but not one that's a direct result of level; they'd have this same advantage if they were the same level as the Fighter, so taking it away from them for the lower-level challenge isn't really fair to them, especially when having half the Fighter's Hit Dice is already limiting them severely.

I don't see why placing additional arbitrary limits on the Wizard is the right approach to this challenge. Quite frankly, they need all the help they can get. It gets to be a bit of a different story past 10th level, but at 10th level? Let them have their expensive components...they'll need them.

Zalabim

2016-05-17, 07:32 AM

wunderkid

2016-05-17, 08:54 AM

Yes, Magic Jar costs 500 GP. I'm pretty sure I could save the fighter from Magic Jar for less than 500 GP, like by hiring some commoners to walk around with you and prevent you from doing anything stupid. On that note, it wouldn't look that stupid, would it? If it's on top of a tower, for example, fighter reaches the top of the tower and finds the wizard, catatonic, on a throne. The fighter picks up the wizard, removes his ornate bejeweled thing, and throws it off the tower to shatter on the rocks below. Now, if the fighter is possessed, this kills the fighter and the wizard wakes up. If the fighter is not possessed, this kills the wizard. Obviously, the commoners would be asking why you didn't just throw the wizard.

So you hire mercenaries to come with you and stab the wizard and break his stuff. How many mercenary-hours can 500 GP buy?

Well it's 2sp per day for a hireling. So in theory raw you could have one for quite a long while. However what you're basically doing is paying someone to die for you. In real world terms I'm a skilled hireling so I'd get 2gp per day. But if you wanted to pay me to basically go to a war zone with you and poke things that may or may not be mines it would cost you a whole lot more. Of course I'm also not in poverty so my price would be higher than someone in desperation.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 09:04 AM

Well it's 2sp per day for a hireling. So in theory raw you could have one for quite a long while. However what you're basically doing is paying someone to die for you. In real world terms I'm a skilled hireling so I'd get 2gp per day. But if you wanted to pay me to basically go to a war zone with you and poke things that may or may not be mines it would cost you a whole lot more. Of course I'm also not in poverty so my price would be higher than someone in desperation.

It's worth mentioning that you wouldn't necessarily know that you were being hired to go poke mines, or the D&D equivalent: your average hireling isn't likely to be too familiar with the nuances of 6th level soul-trapping spells...and that's ignoring that the average hireling kinda gets into the profession with the full understanding that they're likely to die some day poking something an adventurer tells them to poke, that turned out (this time) to actually be a mimic, or a trap, or a Soul Jar, or whatever.

wunderkid

2016-05-17, 09:11 AM

It's worth mentioning that you wouldn't necessarily know that you were being hired to go poke mines, or the D&D equivalent: your average hireling isn't likely to be too familiar with the nuances of 6th level soul-trapping spells...and that's ignoring that the average hireling kinda gets into the profession with the full understanding that they're likely to die some day poking something an adventurer tells them to poke, that turned out (this time) to actually be a mimic, or a trap, or a Soul Jar, or whatever.

I think when it says skilled and unskilled hireling it means more like blacksmiths and labourers rather than follow this epic dude about to be cannon fodder xD even just hanging around someone of that level as a commoner is a death wish.

However being that level does mean your epic and will likely have a few fanatical followers who would follow you for free.

The wizard could put a glyph or warding fireball or two leading up to the tower that would clear off any low level commoners.

Which brings me to an interesting point can glyph of warding be used in any way to tip the favour?

Obviously it has a high cost. So no 'put 1000 fireball glyphs in a room and lock the fighter in' I'm thinking more clever applications

MaxWilson

2016-05-17, 09:19 AM

...I find that I have to disagree with this point, or at least play Devil's Advocate: it's a fact of the system that, once your Fighter has the armor he wants and all the weapons he can carry, has basically nothing to spend his possibly hundreds of thousands of gold pieces on for himself; he could commission a base of operations, and soldiers to guard it, and give them the best armor/weapons/training he can afford with his millions of gold pieces, but none of that helps the Fighter.

I don't understand this viewpoint at all.

My very first session of 5E ever saw me spending all my money out of guilt as weregild for a shopkeeper whom I accidentally blew up with a Fireball while fighting an assassin snake-man. My second session saw us spot a good-sized group of hobgoblins who were running from something, attack them (for some reason I didn't understand), and then have to tangle with six wraiths [with perma-HP-drain], their peryton steeds, and six spectres raised from the hobgoblins. My immediate reaction to that second session was, "Doh! We shouldn't have attacked the hobgoblins, we should have hired them! That would have made the wraith fight easy and we wouldn't have permanently lost all those HP!"

Since then I've spotted a bunch of other stuff in 5E that's worth spending money on. 5E has a spirit binding system hidden within it that's a lot like Shadowrun's spirit-binding: you can turn money into combat power with Planar Binding, but unlike Shadowrun you're not limited in the number of services you can request from your bound spirits, you're merely limited by duration. But the similarity remains that wizards loooooove money in 5E.

Poisons are great too. Fighters looooove poisons because their high base number of attacks makes them the best at exploiting poison, especially since poison works best on arrows instead of melee weapons (due to DMG errata on poison) and fighters are already the best archers. My players have done amazing things with drow sleep poison and purple worm poison.

Obviously once you have hirelings you can buy them more and better equipment with your gold. Because bounded accuracy, having minions around actually helps you a lot--they're not useless. I wouldn't want to be a fighter who single-handedly takes out a mind flayer colony, but give me forty soldiers (with long bows, chain mail, long swords and shields, and three bags of caltrops each) and I will lead them to victory! My players have also done amazing things with hirelings including at 3rd level taking on an encounter which by DMG standards would have been IIRC Medium difficulty for 20th level. (They also got to pick their battle and prepare the terrain with bear traps and at least one full-scale 4d10 booby trap.)

Also, because of the way 5E mount rules work, a fighter can benefit greatly from a good steed, especially a gryphon or other flying + fast mount.

So, for stuff that helps the fighter directly, we have mounts and poisons and the Help and/or Shove action from hirelings and nets thrown by hirelings (restrained enemy = advantage for fighter on attacks). For stuff that helps him win without necessarily increasing his DPR, we have hirelings (meat shields and extra DPR and opportunity attacks) and conjured spirits and caltrops (strewn by hirelings to prevent enemies from closing) and field fortifications (built by hirelings to provide partial cover).

Gold is amazingly useful in 5E, and it is mostly due to bounded accuracy.

==================================================

It's worth mentioning that you wouldn't necessarily know that you were being hired to go poke mines, or the D&D equivalent: your average hireling isn't likely to be too familiar with the nuances of 6th level soul-trapping spells...and that's ignoring that the average hireling kinda gets into the profession with the full understanding that they're likely to die some day poking something an adventurer tells them to poke, that turned out (this time) to actually be a mimic, or a trap, or a Soul Jar, or whatever.

It's worth mentioning that one of the best things about the Inspiring Leader feat is the indirect effect it has on troop morale: if everybody has +15 temp HP from General Sparrowhawk's pep talk, they are much less likely to die to the mimic/trap/fire giant boulder and more likely to live to spend their pay. The expectation of survival and victory is what keeps an army together. If you routinely take 50%+ casualties among your hirelings, they're probably going to leave you sooner rather than later; but if you prove you can keep everyone alive (say, 5% casualties) to spend their pay they will have high morale and will be eager to be led by you.

Shaofoo

2016-05-17, 10:07 AM

...I find that I have to disagree with this point, or at least play Devil's Advocate: it's a fact of the system that, once your Fighter has the armor he wants and all the weapons he can carry, has basically nothing to spend his possibly hundreds of thousands of gold pieces on for himself; he could commission a base of operations, and soldiers to guard it, and give them the best armor/weapons/training he can afford with his millions of gold pieces, but none of that helps the Fighter.

While poisons and hirelings are discussed, the Fighter can spend his gold on Healing Potions, an item that does appear in the PHB. If the regeneration a Champion gets is enough to tank a Wizard then having several dozens of healing pots on call could be very useful as well.

On this point, we seem to be in agreement: you see that the fighter has basically nothing to spend their mountain of money on, while the various caster classes can use it for expensive material components, so you believe that this money should be unavailable for the purposes of this challenge...and on this point, I have to disagree. The relative usefulness of the Fighter's money as compared to that of the Wizard is not a result of their level difference, which is the point of this "caster 10 vs Fighter 20" challenge, so the fact that the Fighter is sitting on a mountain of useless money while the Wizard or Cleric or Warlock can afford the spells of their dreams is an advantage for the Wizard, but not one that's a direct result of level; they'd have this same advantage if they were the same level as the Fighter.

Like I said, the point is that both the supposed system to give wealth at a higher level is a suggestion not a hard rule. By virtue of leveling up your class you only gain your starting gear, there is no way to gain more wealth outside of adventuring. If the Wizard has access to wealth then the Fighter should have as well and everything that it entails. I would also add that the Fighter should also get a couple of magic items as well while the Wizard gets bupkus when it comes to magic items at least if we are going by normal and low magic item concentrations, I am pretty sure the fighter can have some idea what kind of magic items they'd like. (I'll assume as well that magic items are not for sale or then why wouldn't the fighter try to buy more magic items).

so taking it away from them for the lower-level challenge isn't really fair to them, especially when having half the Fighter's Hit Dice is already limiting them severely

I don't see why placing additional arbitrary limits on the Wizard is the right approach to this challenge. Quite frankly, they need all the help they can get. It gets to be a bit of a different story past 10th level, but at 10th level? Let them have their expensive components...they'll need them.

This changes the paradigm of the exercise. It isn't now "Can a Wizard X beat a Fighter 20" but "How much do you have to tip the scales for a Wizard X to beat a Fighter 20?". I don't see it as arbitrary, if the Fighter doesn't get cash then neither should the Wizard and that includes no special components, if the Wizards gets cash to buy whatever then so does the Fighter and everything that it entails (which isn't nothing at all). If the Wizard gets cash but not the Fighter then it stops being a fair comparison.

Yes it makes things much more complex but I kinda feel that this is a part that people really take for granted and wish to focus.

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-17, 10:11 AM

Which means fireball goes around total cover.

Yes of course, but you also previously listed 3 other 3rd level spells, which means you'd need to dip into that spare 5th level slot or 4th level ones.

RickAllison

2016-05-17, 12:58 PM

georgie_leech

2016-05-17, 01:04 PM

wunderkid

2016-05-17, 01:10 PM

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 01:18 PM

mgshamster

2016-05-17, 01:19 PM

At which point you're building a level 20 to beat a level 10 and not the other way round. Which is quite silly tbh. I've also noticed a lot of Schrödinger's fighter occurring in this thread we have a champion fighter built but has anyone built a BM and EK for this? Seems like a lot of responses are Ek counters X but champion counters Y and BM counters Z rather than each countering X

There has been extremely minimal Schrodingers fighter in this thread. Contributors have done a very good job keeping to the posted builds. For reference, here they are again (with links to the original posts):

To recap, here are the fighter builds:

Made by JNAProductions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20756848&postcount=8)

Fighter (Champion) 20
Wood Elf

Strength 9
Dexterity 20 (14 Base, +2 Race, +4 ASIs)
Constitution 18 (14 base, +4 ASIs)
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14 (12 base, +1 Race, +1 Feat)
Charisma 12

Dex +2 (Levels 4, 6)
Sharpshooter (Level 8)
Resilient (Wsidom) (Level 12)
Con +2 (Levels 14, 16)
Mobile (level 19)

Armed with Studded Leather and a Longbow. Has the Defensive and Archery Fighting styles.

AC 18
HP 204
Move 45'

Made by Malifice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757364&postcount=74)

My Fighter 20 build is the switch hitter:

Feats/ ASI: Lucky, Alert, Resilient [wisdom], Great weapon master, Sharpshooter, +4 Strength, +2 Dex

Str: 20
Dex: 18
Wis: 14
Con: 12
Int and Cha: 8

Battlemaster: Precise strike, Tripping attack, Menacing attack, Riposte, others. Archery F/S.

Equipment: Full plate, Greatsword, Maul, Longbow

Made by MaxWilson (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20757130&postcount=42)
Rolls: 13 13 8 11 12 15
Degalus Magnus Benedictus, small, solid-looking man with a square face and an open manner.
LG Human Baker/Retired soldier (Pythium army), Eldritch Knight 20
Str* 11 Dex (16) 20 Con* 14 Int 12 Wis* (13) 14 Cha 8 HP 164 [* = proficient save]
Good-natured, kind, earnest, trusting; naturally quiet, but likes to talk about his wife and kids back home to anyone who asks about them; socially-awkward, unable to let a joke die. Doesn't trust most Pythium aristocrats--"they only care about each other."
Skills: Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth, Insight; baker's tools, poisoner's kit; Common, Dwarvish
Feats (8): Sharpshooter, Dex 16 => 18, Dex 18 => 20, Alert, Mobile, Lucky, Resilient (Wis), Warcaster
Cantrips (3): Mold Earth [for digging in fortifications], False Fetters [née Booming Blade], Prestidigitation [great for cleaning baking implements]
Spells (13): Darkness, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, Shield, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fire Shield, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat*, Magic Weapon*, Blink*, Dimension Door* [* = non-evoc/abj]
Spell points: 38

MaxWilson

2016-05-17, 01:19 PM

One thing to point out: since so many of the level 10s rely on inflicting constant disadvantage to the fighter, he might as well be using a Large-size weapon. Disadvantage to use it doesn't matter if you had that anyway, and it bumps longbow damage by 4.5 and greatsword/maul by 7. A Large longbow with Sharpshooter deals 2d8+15 damage with 20 Dex and the -5. That makes for an average DC of 12 on the concentration check (actually higher, but I don't feel like doing the math to account for minimum of 10 DC). For greatsword, we have 4d6+15, or a DC 14 check.

For the champion, it gets even better. 4d8+15 is a DC 16 and 8d6+15 is a whopping average 43 damage, average DC for concentration of 21.

Another thing to point out: if your DM lets you wield oversized weapons at disadvantage, you might as well consider doing it all the time, not just when you have disadvantage. All you need is a way to cancel the disadvantage (e.g. heavy obscurement or invisibility) and now you're cooking with gas!

But I must point out that by strict RAW it doesn't seem to be legal. Disadvantage is for small creatures wielding heavy weapons; I don't see anything about medium creatures wielding Large-sized weapons at disadvantage. If one of my players wanted to do this, I'm not sure if I'd let him wield oversized weapons at their normal damage at all--the idea of a human wielding a ten-foot-long greatsword is pretty silly, much less getting 4d6 damage out of it. I'd have to think about whether reducing the damage, imposing nonproficiency, or imposing disadvantage was the most appropriate way to model it, but disadvantage is probably not what I would choose because the advantage mechanic is so binary.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 01:23 PM

There has been extremely minimal Schrodingers fighter in this thread. Contributors have done a very good job keeping to the posted builds. For reference, here they are again (with links to the original posts):

I would like to point out a very slight bit of Schrodinger going on with the Champion build, between that particular quote of it and the current version: earlier in this thread (a couple days ago), I asked the person who made it to clarify their proficient skills, which have since been added to the original post, but not to that quote. A minor thing, to be sure, but worth mentioning.

georgie_leech

2016-05-17, 01:23 PM

RickAllison

2016-05-17, 01:24 PM

Another thing to point out: if your DM lets you wield oversized weapons at disadvantage, you might as well consider doing it all the time, not just when you have disadvantage. All you need is a way to cancel the disadvantage (e.g. heavy obscurement or invisibility) and now you're cooking with gas!

But I must point out that by strict RAW it doesn't seem to be legal. Disadvantage is for small creatures wielding heavy weapons; I don't see anything about medium creatures wielding Large-sized weapons at disadvantage. If one of my players wanted to do this, I'm not sure if I'd let him wield oversized weapons at their normal damage at all--the idea of a human wielding a ten-foot-long greatsword is pretty silly, much less getting 4d6 damage out of it. I'd have to think about whether reducing the damage, imposing nonproficiency, or imposing disadvantage was the most appropriate way to model it, but disadvantage is probably not what I would choose because the advantage mechanic is so binary.

It's in the DMG, page 278 I believe.

mgshamster

2016-05-17, 01:28 PM

I would like to point out a very slight bit of Schrodinger going on with the Champion build, between that particular quote of it and the current version: earlier in this thread (a couple days ago), I asked the person who made it to clarify their proficient skills, which have since been added to the original post, but not to that quote. A minor thing, to be sure, but worth mentioning.

Posters have also been doing a decent job keeping away from Schrodinger's caster. There was one incident with adding wall of force to the bladesinger, but considering how much we were discussing it, I think it's a reasonable addition to the build.

For the most part, the heavy lifters in this thread have done a decent job keeping with an actual build, regardless if they were arguing on the side of the caster, fighter, or have been neutral.

The only major Schrodingers slights I've seen were from people who only posted once or twice in the entire thread (including the person who inspired this entire thread to begin with).

mgshamster

2016-05-17, 01:32 PM

Would you consider editing that into the OP? It might make it easier to point people to them.

Done for the three fighters. Request: can you guys help me find the other builds and I'll add them to the OP?

I'd also like to have links to the original builds so people get credit for their work.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 01:35 PM

Done for the three fighters. Request: can you guys help me find the other builds and I'll add them to the OP?

I'd also like to have links to the original builds so people get credit for their work.

I've got a link to NewDM's build in my "100 Fights" thread, I'll go dig that up. Also, during the "naked Fighter vs Warlock" part of the thread, I came up with a Tavern Brawler Champion build, and I know at least one person made another Fighter build during that time.

RickAllison

2016-05-17, 01:41 PM

Posters have also been doing a decent job keeping away from Schrodinger's caster. There was one incident with adding wall of force to the bladesinger, but considering how much we were discussing it, I think it's a reasonable addition to the build.

For the most part, the heavy lifters in this thread have done a decent job keeping with an actual build, regardless if they were arguing on the side of the caster, fighter, or have been neutral.

The only major Schrodingers slights I've seen were from people who only posted once or twice in the entire thread (including the person who inspired this entire thread to begin with).

Not to mention that several of the accusations of Schrodinger's are really modifications to builds. Schrodinger's is when the build is different depending on the situation (once the box is opened, the build is decided on). Something like adding WoF is a change to a build. If that change remains in every situation for that build, it is not a Schrodinger's.

As for carrying a Large weapon, my characters often do do that. I had a monk PC with a Quiver of Ehlonna that carried both a regular and Large longbows, spears, and quarterstaves, as well as different sizes of javelin. That PC used both sizes in combat in response to what the enemy did.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-17, 01:44 PM

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life,
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image,
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste,
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility,
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force,
Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

Half-Orc Champion 20
Level 1 Stats: 16/14/16/8/12/8
Level 20 Stats: 20/14/18/8/14/8
Saves: +11/+2/+10/-1/+8/-1
Feats/ASIs: Tavern Brawler (Con)/Grappler/Resilient (Wis)/Tough/Str +4/Con +1/Wis +1
Fighting Styles: Dueling/Mariner

AC: 13
HP: 19d10+130 (average 244)
Attack: 4 attacks, +11
Damage: 1d4+7
Crit: 19-20, 3d4+7

It's important to note that my Half-Orc Champion is built as an unarmed grappler, despite that being a terrible thing to be as a Fighter (especially because, in the fight I used him in, he never attempted to grapple the Warlock); giving him good armor (Full Plate+Shield) and the subbing in Defense for Mariner makes him a lot more effective, but I'm not going to alter the build to include those.

MaxWilson

2016-05-17, 01:53 PM

Done for the three fighters. Request: can you guys help me find the other builds and I'll add them to the OP?

I'm very proud of my LG Human Baker, and the fact that "fighter 20" isn't where he keeps his sense of identity, it's just kind of an incidental.

#notamurderhobo

mgshamster

2016-05-17, 03:42 PM

AvatarVecna fighter build added.

NewGM warlock build and bladesinger build added.

Were there any other warlock builds? Or any other builds at all?

MaxWilson

2016-05-17, 04:01 PM

AvatarVecna fighter build added.

NewGM warlock build and bladesinger build added.

Were there any other warlock builds? Or any other builds at all?

If we're doing Warlock builds, I had one in post #42.

My warlock:
Rolls: 14 15 14 11 10 10
Diana Floralia Minerva, "My father's house will rise again!"
N Human Pythium Noble, Warlock 10
Beautiful, athletic, intelligent, determined, patient, humorless; single-mindedly devoted to restoring the wealth and honor of her fallen bloodline. Chosen avenue: bounty hunting, treasure-hunting
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis* 10 Cha* (16) 20 HP 73 [* = proficient save]
Skills: Arcana, Intimidation, Stealth, Insight, Perception; Common, Giantish
Pact: Fiend + Chain
Feats (3): Spell Sniper, Cha 16 => 18, Cha 18 => 20
Cantrips (4): Thunderclap, Greenflame Blade, Minor Illusion, Blade Ward
Invocations (5): Voice of the Chain Master, Devil's Sight, Eldritch Spear, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast
Spells (10): Hex, Armor of Agathys, Fireball, Expeditious Retreat, Fly, Counterspell, Hold Person, Vampiric Touch, Hypnotic Pattern, Dimension Door
Spell points [per short rest]: 14

NewDM

2016-05-17, 10:28 PM

The Blade Singer would use Stone Skin as the resistance would more than virtually double their hit points since half damage is rounded down.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 01:19 AM

The Blade Singer would use Stone Skin as the resistance would more than virtually double their hit points since half damage is rounded down.

Awesome, noted. I'll start seeing how the Fighter's first post-WoF turn goes. Under the assumption that the Wizard survives said post-WoF Fighter turn, what would they like to do?

EDIT: Please give the Wizard's actions for rounds in which Mirror Image either pops or stays up; I imagine more than few are going to pop.

Envyus

2016-05-18, 01:25 AM

The Blade Singer would use Stone Skin as the resistance would more than virtually double their hit points since half damage is rounded down.

Concentration is still a thing with that and they can be knocked out of it.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 01:32 AM

Concentration is still a thing with that and they can be knocked out of it.

Your concern for their build is noted; as it stands, they have a +5 Con save with advantage. Concentration saves are rolled with attacks, and will be taken into account if necessary.

djreynolds

2016-05-18, 02:56 AM

Half Orc 20th level Champion

14/13/15/9/13/8

20/13/16/9/14/8
defensive and duelist style
HP 184
AC 21 with full plate, shield, +1 defensive style
+11 to hit
4 attacks
1d8 rapier +5 and +2
resilient wisdom
defensive duelist
shield master
lucky
mage slayer
ASI strength
ASI strength

Mobile is a nice feat, but I'm just going to hound you.
Shield master for dex evasion and shoving after or before I've swung my rapier 4 times at you in a round.
Defensive duelist, +6 to AC on a reaction, meaning, one melee attack will never land
Mage slayer coupled with proficiency in wis, con, and strength
Lucky, insurance on top of rerolling saves 3xs a day anyhow
resilient wisdom, +8 on wisdom saves along with everything else

Using the dodge action, a lot

EK is even better, and even in that build with its access to the shield spell, I may take defensive duelist just help save spell slots.

Gwendol

2016-05-18, 05:07 AM

So, what about a Moon Druid 10? Elemental form (2x) is reasonably powerful, and their damage resistance means they last twice as long. If the druid can find a way to cast a summoning spell (conjure woodland being requires only an action, but others a minute), there is a chance of a force multiplier. Druids of that level have a few more spells that can cause damage, or control. Not likely enough to end the fight though. Contagion is nasty though, especially slimy doom as the fighter will not be immune to stunning.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 05:17 AM

Gwendol

2016-05-18, 06:21 AM

I'll submit a bog standard druid, with a layout of tactics. I've never played one myself, so can't claim expertise.
Is the sage advice ruling in play here regarding contagion?

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 06:25 AM

I'll submit a bog standard druid, with a layout of tactics. I've never played one myself, so can't claim expertise.
Is the sage advice ruling in play here regarding contagion?

Presumably, but what is it?

Gwendol

2016-05-18, 06:41 AM

That the effects of the disease only kick in after three failed saves.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 06:44 AM

That the effects of the disease only kick in after three failed saves.

Makes sense to me: you don't get to infect anybody until they actually fail the three saves.

MaxWilson

2016-05-18, 10:10 AM

If you'd like to submit a full build and some basic (or more thorough) tactics for it, I'll run the numbers.

Rolls: 12, 11, 8, 11, 10, 10
Barton, N human hermit, Moon Druid 10.
Resents human intrusions on wilderness; thinks animals are morally equal to humans; is very willing to drive out settlers/intruders, and will kill if necessary for the "greater good" as measured in terms of total lives
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 HP 63 AC 15
Skills: Survival, Nature, Arcana, Stealth, Perception
Feats: Mobile, Resilient (Con), Lucky
Equipment: Crossbow, Scimitar (Finesse), Hide Armor, Shield
Cantrips (4): Mold Earth, Shape Water, Thorn Whip, Produce Flame [all used for keeping out humans]
Spells: Darkvision, Spike Growth, Meld Into Stone, Conjure Animals, Greater Restoration, Wall of Flame, Longstrider, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Call Lightning, Pass Without Trace

Prefers to fight at night when fighting is necessary. Very patient fighting style, opportunistic.
Basic tactics for 1 vs 1 fight during the day (I assume night fighting is irrelevant):
(1) (vs. melee foe in cramped quarters) Longstrider + Conjure Animals V + Giant Constrictor Snake form to restrain enemies/grant advantage to self; OR
(2) (vs. melee foe in open terrain) Longstrider + Call Lightning + stay out of range (Hide if necessary; will discourage pursuit if necessary by Thorn Whip + move 50' away, which denies opportunity attack because of Mobile). Can devolve to #1 if enemy closes the distance.
(3) (vs. ranged foe) Longstrider + Conjure Animals V + Earth Elemental form (burrow beneath earth to get close). Earth Elemental will retain shield from human form (AC 19) and use Earth Glide to melee kite the ranged foe while it deals with the animals.

In all cases, when reduced to 50% (human) HP, Barton will flee and hide, using conjured animals or Spike Growth to cover his escape route. He will take a short rest (either in Earth Elemental form or in a stone via Meld Into Stone) and re-assess his options.

If he gets to influence which animal spirits are conjured, Barton would generally prefer an even mix of Giant Owls and Giant Poisonous Snakes, and will direct the owls to flyby and try to knock the enemy prone first, then all the animals attack at advantage. Once there are only a few animals left (e.g. 2-4 giant owls and no snakes) the Giant Owls will be directed instead to try to grapple the enemy and fly with him up into the air as high as possible while any remaining Giant Owls (besides the successful grappler) continue attacking. Barton will recast Conjure Animals if he is in human form when there are 0-2 animal spirits left alive.

In all cases, Barton will attempt to attain surprise via Pass Without Trace if the terrain permits.

His Lucky dice will be used for attaining surprise, for cancelling critical hits, for cancelling any hits when Barton is below half (human) health, and for failed saving throws including concentration checks.

Edit: if he knows it's a 20th level fighter, tactic #1 will not be used because Giant Constrictor form is too fragile (he'll lose concentration too quickly). Instead he will Conjure Animals V + melee kite in air elemental form. But tactic #1 would be used against someone less impressive like an 8th level fighter.

mgshamster

2016-05-18, 10:11 AM

Did RulesJD ever post an actual build? I think I'm just missing it.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 10:17 AM

I don't need to move it, the Fighter can just get within optimal shooting distance while you are busy buffing yourself, the Fighter is free to do whatever he wants as well. Also I would like to say that Contigency also uses up two slots upon activation but that is minor.

Because a Wizard lacks wealth generation (all classes do). By virtue of being a Wizard he has no way to make the expensive spell components he needs to actually cast the spells. And I know you'll say stuff like "so then the Fighter should not have any weapons either!" but I'll say that the classes does give everyone some gear to start off. People really seem to take expensive material components for granted.

So a level 13 Wizard should care about money because the class doesn't grant him any wealth, he has as much money now as when he started at level 1. The only way they cah get money is by exploiting the world.

1. It definitely doesn't. Cast it, long rest, congrats you have your spell slots back.

2. Have you seriously never read the PHB? Have you not heard of the laughably abusable Fabricate spell? Hell with proficiency in Pottery (or whatever you want to make for the container) just go find some nice mud and poof, you have your Reliquary for Magic Jar with literally 0 cost besides a spell slot. No class comes even remotely close to the Wizard for having ready access to money, even just Fabricating PHB items and selling them.

Fabricate only says it can't create Magic Items, nothing about spell components (which are specifically called out in other spells so using the prior logic in this thread indicates it's perfectly permissible)

3. This is a WHITEROOM fight analysis, as I've been told repeatedly because the Wizard can't ambush the Fighter, etc. So no, you don't get your minions, you don't get to find the Wizard in a tower (not how the spell works at all anyways, you really need to re-read Magic Jar).

4. How would Magic Jar make the fight over before it began?

Simulacrum casts Magic Jar while Wizard has Fighter trapped in WoF (see prior discussion of Res Sphere for negating losing Initiative). Obviously Simulacrum could have cast Magic Jar before hand but that's no fun.

Simulacrum then projects onto the trapped Fighter. Even with Lucky + Indomitable, you're failing that Charisma save with your -1 vastly more often than not, and all but 100% guaranteed failure if it's a Divination Wizard (4 Portent dice with the Simulacrums).

Simulacrum then stabs themselves (as the Fighter) to 1hp. Wizard casts Fly on Simulacrum (as Fighter). Simulacrum grabs the Magic Jar, flies straight up 10ft+, and throws the Jar at the ground. Right as it throws it, Wizard stops concentrating on Fly. Jar hits ground first and breaks, which releases the Fighter (now in control of its body but still not its turn) who promptly falls 10ft and dies. Obviously could increase the height for more damage to prevent other efforts, etc.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 10:21 AM

Did RulesJD ever post an actual build? I think I'm just missing it.

Not really. I was giving the Wizard the benefit of the doubt (being level 10) and the discussion wasn't even about the build, it was about the function of the Spells.

Honestly I liked the Bladesinger build (able to survive first round) so that sounds good to me.

Alternatively, just a Variant Human level 10 Evocation or Divination Wizard. 16 Dex, 16 Con, 16 Int, ASI into Int, Feat for Res (Con) or Alert (adjust HP as necessary)?

Benefit of a Wizard is that their build doesn't matter, mostly just spell selection, which I would adjust through Contact Other Plane (appropriate knowledge/time seeing based entity). Standard spells like WoF, Shield, MM, Fireball, etc.

MaxWilson

2016-05-18, 10:33 AM

Simulacrum then stabs themselves (as the Fighter) to 1hp. Wizard casts Fly on Simulacrum (as Fighter). Simulacrum grabs the Magic Jar, flies straight up 10ft+, and throws the Jar at the ground. Right as it throws it, Wizard stops concentrating on Fly. Jar hits ground first and breaks, which releases the Fighter (now in control of its body but still not its turn) who promptly falls 10ft and dies. Obviously could increase the height for more damage to prevent other efforts, etc.

Breaking the jar this way seems needlessly convoluted. Why not just have the simulacrum use its action to return to the jar?

Shaofoo

2016-05-18, 10:57 AM

1. It definitely doesn't. Cast it, long rest, congrats you have your spell slots back.

While true Contigency also has the problem that it has a 10 day time limit, and has a 10 minute casting time. Simulacrum is permanent so you can assume that will be there but you can't really say that you'll have Contigency up at all times.

2. Have you seriously never read the PHB? Have you not heard of the laughably abusable Fabricate spell? Hell with proficiency in Pottery (or whatever you want to make for the container) just go find some nice mud and poof, you have your Reliquary for Magic Jar with literally 0 cost besides a spell slot. No class comes even remotely close to the Wizard for having ready access to money, even just Fabricating PHB items and selling them.

Of course you could have training with Artisan tools which could allow you but that costs you 250 gp and 250 days and training is a DM dependent feature (but so is feats so lets assume you can do it). But this also assumes that the Reliquary will be of sufficient value (it requires a value of 500 gp which the Fabricate spells says nothing about giving value to the items it creates even with proficiency, unlike Wish which does have a 25,000 gp limit put in there).

Also you don't have access to money, you might have access to items but selling is not something that you can do, Fabricate does not grant you gp to use directly and you also need to actually have the raw materials, it isn't creating something out of nothing.

Fabricate only says it can't create Magic Items, nothing about spell components (which are specifically called out in other spells so using the prior logic in this thread indicates it's perfectly permissible)

And the high quality of craftsmanship as well which does apply because the spell components expects to be of a certain quality, hence the asking price, so you might need to roll to see if it is of an applicable value; maybe next time don't try to be so condescending.

3. This is a WHITEROOM fight analysis, as I've been told repeatedly because the Wizard can't ambush the Fighter, etc. So no, you don't get your minions, you don't get to find the Wizard in a tower (not how the spell works at all anyways, you really need to re-read Magic Jar).

If the Fighter doesn't get his minions then the wizard can't have his spell components or infinite time to prepare or even a marketplace to sell his items. If it is a true whiteroom then both sides should be equivalent in preparation and availability of resources.

4. How would Magic Jar make the fight over before it began?

Simulacrum casts Magic Jar while Wizard has Fighter trapped in WoF (see prior discussion of Res Sphere for negating losing Initiative). Obviously Simulacrum could have cast Magic Jar before hand but that's no fun.

Simulacrum then projects onto the trapped Fighter. Even with Lucky + Indomitable, you're failing that Charisma save with your -1 vastly more often than not, and all but 100% guaranteed failure if it's a Divination Wizard (4 Portent dice with the Simulacrums).

Simulacrum then stabs themselves (as the Fighter) to 1hp. Wizard casts Fly on Simulacrum (as Fighter). Simulacrum grabs the Magic Jar, flies straight up 10ft+, and throws the Jar at the ground. Right as it throws it, Wizard stops concentrating on Fly. Jar hits ground first and breaks, which releases the Fighter (now in control of its body but still not its turn) who promptly falls 10ft and dies. Obviously could increase the height for more damage to prevent other efforts, etc.

Or the Fighter keeps away with his superior range and pelts both Wizards. You seem to assume that the Fighter will always want to start at melee and not try to outrange the wizard.

RickAllison

2016-05-18, 11:25 AM

MaxWilson

2016-05-18, 11:35 AM

The Druid build made me think of a question: how can the Elemental use Earth Glide with a shield? The elemental doesn't disturb the material it passes through while burrowing, which means the shield doesn't have an opening to go through.

If the DM rules that he can't, then oh well, he can't, and it has to stay behind or be absorbed as part of the wildshaping. Not a big deal either way.

RickAllison

2016-05-18, 11:40 AM

If the DM rules that he can't, then oh well, he can't, and it has to stay behind or be absorbed as part of the wildshaping. Not a big deal either way.

Indeed, he would still have it for the melee. However, it would cost him an action, which could be important.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 11:48 AM

If the DM rules that he can't, then oh well, he can't, and it has to stay behind or be absorbed as part of the wildshaping. Not a big deal either way.

The ability doesn't seem to allow for gear, so I think your average DM would probably say no.

mgshamster

2016-05-18, 11:54 AM

2. Have you seriously never read the PHB? Have you not heard of the laughably abusable Fabricate spell? Hell with proficiency in Pottery (or whatever you want to make for the container) just go find some nice mud and poof, you have your Reliquary for Magic Jar with literally 0 cost besides a spell slot. No class comes even remotely close to the Wizard for having ready access to money, even just Fabricating PHB items and selling them.

Fabricate only says it can't create Magic Items, nothing about spell components (which are specifically called out in other spells so using the prior logic in this thread indicates it's perfectly permissible)

A few issues:

1) Fabricate only turns raw materials into finished goods. It doesn't eliminate the need for the cost. So you still need 500 GP worth of raw materials. All the spell does is speed up the time to make the item.

2) The material component for magic jar is fairy high value. Equivalent to the cost of some magic items. It may not be kosher for the spell. It's rather GM dependent.

3) None of the caster builds include a tool proficiency for the ornamental requirement of the jar.

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 11:56 AM

mgshamster

2016-05-18, 12:03 PM

Raw materials to finished goods are capable of doubling the value. So I'd say you only need 250 gp of raw materials.

That being said, you CANNOT "finish" a raw material into a raw material, thereby doubling wealth each time. You can only do it once. (Not RAW, but common sense.)

That's fair on the cost analysis.

I'd rule that if the spell component itself was a raw material, you could not fabricate it. Such as bat guano or a hen feather or some such thing like that.

For the spell to work, your product must be something that some is capable of being manufactured.

Shaofoo

2016-05-18, 12:22 PM

A few issues:

1) Fabricate only turns raw materials into finished goods. It doesn't eliminate the need for the cost. So you still need 500 GP worth of raw materials. All the spell does is speed up the time to make the item.

2) The material component for magic jar is fairy high value. Equivalent to the cost of some magic items. It may not be kosher for the spell. It's rather GM dependent.

3) None of the caster builds include a tool proficiency for the ornamental requirement of the jar.

While I would not say that you need 500 gp (or 250 gp) of materials to create a 500 gp vase I will say that you will need to be a certain skill to create a 500 gp vase out of supposedly worthless clay or dirt. It will definitely require a skill check to be able to create something very valuable out of worthless materials (I could let you go a bit easier if it was clay but dirt will probably put you at DC 30, ain't happening unless you are a true savant).

But the point is that this was supposed to be a whiteroom so I guess that there is no outside interactions since the Fighter is denied his henchmen but that would mean no selling pottery for profit either (or even getting magic components that can't be made by Fabricate or even raw materials to actually use Fabricate).

The best is that you'd have a potential way to make certain components (and I say potential because again Fabricate does not add value or establish a value and if we are to assign value to dirt or clay then we'd probably need a vase the size of a bus if we are to actually create a vase of sufficient value from the pure value of dirt).

I would honestly say that we should ban anything that basically requires DM intervention and adjudication for the sake of actually being impartial but I am sure that will not go over well at all.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 12:38 PM

So in other words the Wizard now can't use any spell that requires a consumable spell component?

Yeah, at this point that's the functional equivalent of saying the Fighter doesn't get Plate armor. It's stupid and everyone knows it. There are literally no level 13+ Wizards that couldn't cast Magic Jar due to the spell component restriction, because no player smart enough to survive to level 13 would be too dumb to figure out how to do it. You said you wanted a 66%+ chance of success of a Wizard to beat a Fighter, and there you go. If "but the level 13 Wizard can't have access to consumable spell components" is your best defense, you've lost.

Now, you need an item worth 500 gp, not that you have to pay 500gp or have to start from 500gp of raw materials. Take one of like a dozen Backgrounds that grant you a crafting proficiency (I'd go jeweler for gems as a lot of other spells require those but any of those would work for Magic Jar because it's a wide open spell).

Just go find some mud, Fabricate spell + Background proficiency. Poof, spell component. Or, you know, recognize the fact that if you're giving the Fighter a 1500gp Plate armor, maybe trying to prop up your defense of the idea of a lack of spell components maybe isn't the best argument.

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 12:46 PM

My Fighter has 45 gp worth of materials. (Studded Leather.) Just saying.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 12:46 PM

While true Contigency also has the problem that it has a 10 day time limit, and has a 10 minute casting time. Simulacrum is permanent so you can assume that will be there but you can't really say that you'll have Contigency up at all times.

*snip*

If the Fighter doesn't get his minions then the wizard can't have his spell components or infinite time to prepare or even a marketplace to sell his items. If it is a true whiteroom then both sides should be equivalent in preparation and availability of resources.

Or the Fighter keeps away with his superior range and pelts both Wizards. You seem to assume that the Fighter will always want to start at melee and not try to outrange the wizard.

1. A Wizard that lets their Contingency lap with a 10 day duration isn't a Wizard that gets to the level of having the spell Contingency. No true scotsman up in here.

2. See above. If you're having to eliminate consumable or costly spell components, you've lost the argument.

Either way, it also doesn't matter, at all. Magic Jar is just a cheeky way of killing the Fighter without them getting to do anything about it. With a Simulacrum + Contingency + Forcecage, there are a dozen different ways to just wreck the Fighter without the Fighter getting more than a snowball's chance in hell.

3. They are equivalent. Fighter gets PHB + Class resources. Wizard gets PHB + Class resources.

Simulacrum is a Spell. GP purchased minions (while in the PHB for sure) make the fight not a level 13 Wizard vs. a level 20 Fighter. Otherwise I'd just go with a Necromancer Wizard + Mass Suggestion on your entire Army and call it a day.

4. If your Fighter wants to run away that's fine, but fleeing the battlefield isn't exactly a good argument.

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 12:48 PM

Staying at a distance is not fleeing. It's fighting smart.

I have a 600' range-why on earth should I bother getting close?

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 12:48 PM

My Fighter has 45 gp worth of materials. (Studded Leather.) Just saying.

So does the Wizard also only get 6 + 2*Level worth of spells because it costs gold to write found spells into their spellbook?

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 12:50 PM

Of course not. Your level up spells are free.

And I'm not the one arguing against Magic Jar. I just point out that not all builds use a lot of money.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 12:51 PM

-snip-

I know this probably sounds like a cop-out, but I'm actually done running the numbers on this one; that's not to say that I finished, but the writing was one the wall.

This build, with the tactics given, attacking JNA's Champion, after summoning 8 Owls and 8 Snakes in the surprise round, is basically guaranteed to win. Long story short, if we assume the Fighter wins initiative and Action Surges away 3 owls (with disadvantage to hit), the animals alone will deal nearly 60 damage to the Fighter, including the odds of potentially knocking said Fighter prone to grant the others advantage. Another Action Surge will basically rid the Fighter of the owls, but the Snakes alone deal 43.3 damage without advantage; given that you have at least 1 round dealing ~60, one round dealing ~40, and potentially 2 rounds dealing ~40 total, all while the Elemental is popping in to deal 16 per round before disappearing...

By the time the animals are all dead, and it's just the Fighter and the Druid, the Fighter will be around 30 HP left (including Survivor Regen), with the Elemental dealing ~16 DPR before Survivor. At this point, the Fighter's best option is to use their Second Wind as a bonus action, take out a Shield, take the Dodge action, and begin moving 45 ft/round towards the nearest tall tree. This increases their HP total to ~55 and decreases the Elemental's DPR to ~13 (including AoO). Hopefully, the Elf can get up a nearby tree within 13 rounds, or else they're gonna die...and of course, this won't help them much if the Druid decides to summon another swarm.

An alternate strategy (the Fighter readying an action to Grapple the Elemental after it attacks, but before it retreats) would potentially allow the Fighter to get a full 8 attacks against the Elemental in an attempt to pop Concentration. Unfortunately, the Druid Elemental has a +9 Con save in this form, and saves do not auto-fail on a natural 1...meaning that the Fighter has to force a Concentration Save of at least DC 11...which would require dealing a total of 44 damage before resistance in a single attack, which isn't possible even on a max damage Sharpshooter crit.

FATALITY. DRUID WINS.

Mind you, I'm fairly certain a Battlemaster or Monster Hunter could force a big enough save to pop Concentration, so how those fights would go is a toss-up. It's also worth mentioning that your build is fairly dependent on getting surprise...and this is basically the only Fighter build present that doesn't have the Alert feat. Even then, your odds of sneaking up on this Fighter to surprise them (with PWT up) are around 60%...not great odds, but more in your favor than the Champion's.

Honestly, though, the biggest problem I see with the Druid potentially killing the Fighter is that the Fighter will likely appear to be (and maybe actually be) more of an ally than an enemy in this Druid's crusade: a Wood Elf wielding a bow, walking into the forest? Attack on sight, children of the forest!

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 12:53 PM

Huh. Interesting.

Druids are flipping powerful.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 12:54 PM

Staying at a distance is not fleeing. It's fighting smart.

I have a 600' range-why on earth should I bother getting close?

Because I Ready Action -> Wall of Force (or Forcecage if an EK) for when I'm within the 120ft of range.

My Simulacrum casts Dimension Door and we go 500ft towards you.

Now within 120ft of range, readied action triggers and a WoF or Forceage around you. Tada, back where we started.

That's why level 13+ the Wizard gets >66% (much greater) chance of beating any setup Fighter. Simulacrum + Contingency breaks things.

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 12:57 PM

And then I sprint away, re-opening the range. Even with Bladesong, I'm faster than you.

Or I just murder you guys up-close. But, who knows-maybe level 13 is the tipping point. All I'm saying is, I guess, give math. Don't just say "I win."

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 12:59 PM

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 01:01 PM

Once it's gone, of course. Unless you left it open, in which case I shoot you from inside. (If it's closed, we just sit there till it goes down.)

wunderkid

2016-05-18, 01:16 PM

While I would not say that you need 500 gp (or 250 gp) of materials to create a 500 gp vase I will say that you will need to be a certain skill to create a 500 gp vase out of supposedly worthless clay or dirt. It will definitely require a skill check to be able to create something very valuable out of worthless materials (I could let you go a bit easier if it was clay but dirt will probably put you at DC 30, ain't happening unless you are a true savant).

But the point is that this was supposed to be a whiteroom so I guess that there is no outside interactions since the Fighter is denied his henchmen but that would mean no selling pottery for profit either (or even getting magic components that can't be made by Fabricate or even raw materials to actually use Fabricate).

The best is that you'd have a potential way to make certain components (and I say potential because again Fabricate does not add value or establish a value and if we are to assign value to dirt or clay then we'd probably need a vase the size of a bus if we are to actually create a vase of sufficient value from the pure value of dirt).

I would honestly say that we should ban anything that basically requires DM intervention and adjudication for the sake of actually being impartial but I am sure that will not go over well at all.

If we are denying the wizard access to material components then that invalidates any of the full plate wearing fighter builds. If the wizard can't have 500gp for a magic Jar spell then the fighter can't have anything greater than

chain mail or (b) leather, longbow, and 20 arrows• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons• (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) two handaxes• (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack

That is a white room as you're putting it.

RickAllison

2016-05-18, 01:35 PM

If it is a white-room analysis, the wizard can never use any material components with a price. Since it is just the two of them, it must be the interaction between the two of them that dictates the price of goods. The fighter simply establishes that the price of various components are sufficiently low that it would take mountains of them to equal the price in gp and the wizard can't Fabricate it!

"I have no need for rubies, or those other components. Mead is what is valuable to me!"

Shaofoo

2016-05-18, 01:39 PM

1. A Wizard that lets their Contingency lap with a 10 day duration isn't a Wizard that gets to the level of having the spell Contingency. No true scotsman up in here.

Missed my point there.

My point was that you can't truly depend on Contingency since you can't really dictate when anything can happen. You could be forced to fight just as you cast your Contingency and be out of both spell slots or you can be forced to fight just as you run out and must recast, you can't really choose when to fight here.

2. See above. If you're having to eliminate consumable or costly spell components, you've lost the argument.

I don't think you even know what the argument is.

My point was that costly spell components is no better than having a fighter with a magic weapon, both require DM intervention and both are against a true whiteboard case

Either way, it also doesn't matter, at all. Magic Jar is just a cheeky way of killing the Fighter without them getting to do anything about it. With a Simulacrum + Contingency + Forcecage, there are a dozen different ways to just wreck the Fighter without the Fighter getting more than a snowball's chance in hell.

Except the whole range thing which you have failed to address. Can you even affect anyone from beyond the 300' mark?

3. They are equivalent. Fighter gets PHB + Class resources. Wizard gets PHB + Class resources.

Simulacrum is a Spell. GP purchased minions (while in the PHB for sure) make the fight not a level 13 Wizard vs. a level 20 Fighter. Otherwise I'd just go with a Necromancer Wizard + Mass Suggestion on your entire Army and call it a day.

Simulacrum requires a 1,500 GP material component, without that material component Simulacrum becomes a pretty waste of ink and paper. There is no way that a WIzard can get 1,500 GP of ruby dust without DM intervention or Wish. So you want expensive material components then you allow Fighters to have their GP and let them use it. Also Mass Suggestion? you mean you will be able to control 12 guys? Out of Dozens? Not to mention that I would probably have my own army go the ranged route anyway so I can outrange your spells? You honestly think that I am the only guy that will go ranged?

4. If your Fighter wants to run away that's fine, but fleeing the battlefield isn't exactly a good argument.

So you are saying that the Fighter has to play stupid to be beaten by the Wizard. Also nice backyard taunt and trying to invoke the hero goes hand to hand, still doesn't mean that the Fighter has to reply to your taunt at all. So maybe you should post something that can even begin to reach a Fighter from up to 600' away.

You really do yourself a disservice if you are saying the only way to beat the Fighter is to afflict him with Stupid Fighter Syndrome.

If we are denying the wizard access to material components then that invalidates any of the full plate wearing fighter builds. If the wizard can't have 500gp for a magic Jar spell then the fighter can't have anything greater than

chain mail or (b) leather, longbow, and 20 arrows• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons• (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) two handaxes• (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack

That is a white room as you're putting it.

You say like I would have a problem with this.

I doubt very many people even care that the fighter wears Full plate, I think that AC is not being truly considered at this point. You can switch armor around and affect nothing at all. You would still want as high a Dex as possible anyway.

But yes give the Fighters that and give the Wizards what they can only gain from their class and go from there. I doubt people would do this because this affects the Wizards far more than the Fighters.

JNAProductions

2016-05-18, 01:41 PM

It would drop my AC by one. I don't think that'd really effect my build that much.

smcmike

2016-05-18, 02:01 PM

mgshamster

2016-05-18, 02:28 PM

While the specific builds in a white room are fun, it seems pretty reasonable to say that, as a general proposition, a wizard 10 is unlikely to defeat a fighter 20 under most circumstances, but a wizard 13 might do so easily.

Arguing over what resouces each brings to the fight seems pointless, since that's all context-dependent. If it's a one-on-one gladiator match, it seems odd to allow the wizard to bring a simulacrum, but if it's a random encounter, it might be odd for him to not have one.

How does the level 13 win easily?

I've seen two tactics so far.

1) Magic Jar. Going by how we've been running the scenarios since the beginning, they roll init. Wiz starts casting magic jar (requires ten rounds and concentration). Fighter starts killing wizard. Not a good scenario for the wizard. I mean, we were only allowing pre-buffs to the level 10 wizard to give it the absolutel best advantage possible, just to see if I would happen.

Even if we do allow a pre buff here, the range is 100 ft. Not nearly as useful as the 600' range of the fighter.

2) Simulacrum + dimension door + [wall of force or forcecage]. The biggest issue with this is that you either have full cover or 3/4 cover. If it's the former, that doesn't help the wiz except to buff. If it's the latter, fighter gets to shoot back.

I think a better tactic would be to have the simulacrum hold the magic jar (cast from the day before), the dimension door close to the fighter so the wizard can possess. Requires massive prep work and the knowledge that this fight will take place, which takes us back to the most basic truth about D&D Wizards from 1st edition: a prepared wizard is the most dangerous creature.

smcmike

2016-05-18, 02:39 PM

How does the level 13 win easily?

I've seen two tactics so far.

1) Magic Jar. Going by how we've been running the scenarios since the beginning, they roll init. Wiz starts casting magic jar (requires ten rounds and concentration). Fighter starts killing wizard. Not a good scenario for the wizard. I mean, we were only allowing pre-buffs to the level 10 wizard to give it the absolutel best advantage possible, just to see if I would happen.

Even if we do allow a pre buff here, the range is 100 ft. Not nearly as useful as the 600' range of the fighter.

2) Simulacrum + dimension door + [wall of force or forcecage]. The biggest issue with this is that you either have full cover or 3/4 cover. If it's the former, that doesn't help the wiz except to buff. If it's the latter, fighter gets to shoot back.

I think a better tactic would be to have the simulacrum hold the magic jar (cast from the day before), the dimension door close to the fighter so the wizard can possess. Requires massive prep work and the knowledge that this fight will take place, which takes us back to the most basic truth about D&D Wizards from 1st edition: a prepared wizard is the most dangerous creature.

I guess what I meant was that arguments over the wizard's level of preparation break the white room idea, but that under some circumstances a well-prepared wizard 13 has a big advantage, where a level 10 might not.

In the white room, I wouldn't personally be inclined to even allow a simulacrum, but that's just because I imagine it to be a two-men-enter, one-man-leaves scenario, and bringing a copy along seems like it's cheating. Which is the point of magic, I guess, but if a wizard is wandering around with a fully prepared simulacrum, who knows what a fighter at twice his level has.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 03:01 PM

Once it's gone, of course. Unless you left it open, in which case I shoot you from inside. (If it's closed, we just sit there till it goes down.)

Forcecage lasts an hour, WoF lasts 10 minutes. Whether they are open for shooting into/out of won't really matter because both Wizards + Simulacrum will be prone and have at minimum 3/4 cover (Sharpshooter could ignore obviously). Wizard won't be able to use Shield in the first round due to their reaction being used up, but can still be prone so disadvantage to hit against their already very large Bladesinger AC.

Whether you can shoot out at all will be up for debate, could just make a full sphere WoF.

In return, you'll be eating full strength double fireballs or Animate Objects b/c other Wizard/Simulacrum/Forecage isn't concentrating on anything or literally like a bajillion other combinations. Wizard could throw up some Full Cover on the 2nd round (Mold Earth, other spell, et al) so at best after the first round you're making 1 shot (Readied Action) for when the Wizard rolls out from cover (prone so disadvantage) against the Bladesinger's super high AC.

Hell just have Simulacrum Ready Action -> Cloudkill for when WoF goes down. On Wizard's, it drops concentration on the WoF, Simulacrum drops a Cloudkill as Wizard immediately recasts WoF. You're now stuck inside a sphere you can't get out of that is filled with poison gas. Or Animated Objects doing absurd amounts of damage. Or etc. etc.

At level 13+ there really is no chance, outside of some exceedingly unlike scenarios (while granted still existing) with an EK, where a Fighter could win. It will 100% beat a BM/Champ if only due to Simulacrum + Contingency due to Action economy and double concentration.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 03:14 PM

Missed my point there.

*snip* You could be forced to fight just as you cast your Contingency and be out of both spell slots or you can be forced to fight just as you run out and must recast, you can't really choose when to fight here.

I don't think you even know what the argument is.

My point was that costly spell components is no better than having a fighter with a magic weapon, both require DM intervention and both are against a true whiteboard case

Except the whole range thing which you have failed to address. Can you even affect anyone from beyond the 300' mark?

Simulacrum requires a 1,500 GP material component, without that material component Simulacrum becomes a pretty waste of ink and paper. There is no way that a WIzard can get 1,500 GP of ruby dust without DM intervention or Wish. So you want expensive material components then you allow Fighters to have their GP and let them use it. Also Mass Suggestion? you mean you will be able to control 12 guys? Out of Dozens? Not to mention that I would probably have my own army go the ranged route anyway so I can outrange your spells? You honestly think that I am the only guy that will go ranged?

So you are saying that the Fighter has to play stupid to be beaten by the Wizard. Also nice backyard taunt and trying to invoke the hero goes hand to hand, still doesn't mean that the Fighter has to reply to your taunt at all. So maybe you should post something that can even begin to reach a Fighter from up to 600' away.

You really do yourself a disservice if you are saying the only way to beat the Fighter is to afflict him with Stupid Fighter Syndrome.

You say like I would have a problem with this.

I doubt very many people even care that the fighter wears Full plate, I think that AC is not being truly considered at this point. You can switch armor around and affect nothing at all. You would still want as high a Dex as possible anyway.

But yes give the Fighters that and give the Wizards what they can only gain from their class and go from there. I doubt people would do this because this affects the Wizards far more than the Fighters.

*sigh*

1. Doesn't matter. It could happen literally that instant. I only need Contingency -> Res Sphere for if I lose Initiative. Two more spell slots would be nice but c'est la vie.

Also, have you heard of Leomund's Tiny Hut? What level 13+ Wizard have you seen would allow any circumstances from imposing on them before they long rest?

You know what? Fine. I cast Magnificent Mansion. Long Rest inside, cast Contingency, wait 24hrs, recast Magnificent Mansion, another long rest. Literally nothing a Fighter can do about it and bam, both spell slots.

2. Except spell components are literally in the PHB? Except that a Wizard can literally CREATE their own spell components per the PHB + Fabricate spell? Anyone who argues that spell components, expensive or otherwise, is somehow equal to a Magical Weapon, is just laughably wrong.

3. SEE ABOVE POST FOR DDOOR + WOF/FORCECAGE. Your distance means nothing to a level 13+ Wizard.

4. AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Really? A level 13+ Wizard can't get 1,500gp (same price as Plate armor) of ruby? Are you kidding me? You honestly must be joking because otherwise I'm not sure how else to take this.

5. Fighter can play as smart as they want, they aren't beating a level 13+ Wizard that ALSO PLAYS SMART.

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 03:18 PM

How does the level 13 win easily?

I've seen two tactics so far.

1) Magic Jar. Going by how we've been running the scenarios since the beginning, they roll init. Wiz starts casting magic jar (requires ten rounds and concentration). Fighter starts killing wizard. Not a good scenario for the wizard. I mean, we were only allowing pre-buffs to the level 10 wizard to give it the absolutel best advantage possible, just to see if I would happen.

Even if we do allow a pre buff here, the range is 100 ft. Not nearly as useful as the 600' range of the fighter.

2) Simulacrum + dimension door + [wall of force or forcecage]. The biggest issue with this is that you either have full cover or 3/4 cover. If it's the former, that doesn't help the wiz except to buff. If it's the latter, fighter gets to shoot back.

I think a better tactic would be to have the simulacrum hold the magic jar (cast from the day before), the dimension door close to the fighter so the wizard can possess. Requires massive prep work and the knowledge that this fight will take place, which takes us back to the most basic truth about D&D Wizards from 1st edition: a prepared wizard is the most dangerous creature.

Agreed about the last thing you said, but I know no one would allow that.

As for Magic Jar, you forgot that the Wizard just traps the Fighter in a full sphere WoF. That's 10 minutes where the Fighter (not EK) can't do jack. So Simulacrum has all the time it needs (1 minute) to cast Magic Jar regardless of whether it loses Initiative (thanks to Contingency).

See prior post. Double concentration = concentration spell inside a re-cast WoF (or Forcecage for that matter which even an EK can't see out of so it can't even try to teleport out of. That = dead Fighter guaranteed because it's trapped + Cloudkill (or Animate Objects, or whatever).

mgshamster

2016-05-18, 03:21 PM

Agreed about the last thing you said, but I know no one would allow that.

As for Magic Jar, you forgot that the Wizard just traps the Fighter in a full sphere WoF. That's 10 minutes where the Fighter (not EK) can't do jack. So Simulacrum has all the time it needs (1 minute) to cast Magic Jar regardless of whether it loses Initiative (thanks to Contingency).

See prior post. Double concentration = concentration spell inside a re-cast WoF (or Forcecage for that matter which even an EK can't see out of so it can't even try to teleport out of. That = dead Fighter guaranteed because it's trapped + Cloudkill (or Animate Objects, or whatever).

Does a simulacrum even have a soul for magic jar to be used?

RulesJD

2016-05-18, 04:44 PM

Does a simulacrum even have a soul for magic jar to be used?

*shrug*

No idea to be honest. Truthfully, if it was just a fight I wouldn't even bother with all of that, just do the Cloudkill + WoF and call it a day.

I just love Magic Jar because it's hilarious. I really wish it gave you their class abilities but sadly not. I put it in my list of spells that are terribly broken and really never going to see in a real game, like Arcane Eye.

smcmike

2016-05-18, 04:51 PM

Out of curiousity, how do you word your contingency?

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-18, 05:01 PM

If he gets to influence which animal spirits are conjured

It's not how the spell works, so I don't follow why you think this should even be stated.

While true, part of the exercise is that the Fighter isn't built to counter any given build, but is built to how one might actually play a Fighter. YMMV, but I haven't seen many Fighter's cart around Large weapons on the off chance something else continuously gives them Disadvantage.

I agree with your sentiment. However, now that it's been brought to our collective attention that having an oversized weapons provides a huge potential benefit within certain circumstances (I would imagine a Barbarian would be pretty terrifying with reckless attack on such a weapon) I'm inclined to think that all Fighters should carry overly large weapons.

Yeah, at this point that's the functional equivalent of saying the Fighter doesn't get Plate armor.

Magical plate armor.

This build, with the tactics given, attacking JNA's Champion, after summoning 8 Owls and 8 Snakes in the surprise round, is basically guaranteed to win.

That's legitimately not how the spell works. If I said the tactic of my hypothetical level 1 Cleric were to will the Fighter to death using the power of bad thoughts (even though that's not a thing), would you also give credence to it?

If we are denying the wizard access to material components then that invalidates any of the full plate wearing fighter builds. If the wizard can't have 500gp for a magic Jar spell then the fighter can't have anything greater than

chain mail or (b) leather, longbow, and 20 arrows• (a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons• (a) a light crossbow and 20 bolts or (b) two handaxes• (a) a dungeoneer’s pack or (b) an explorer’s pack

That is a white room as you're putting it.

We don't know what the respective parties would have acquired over their 10 and 20 levels of adventuring, although reaching level 20 requires many many factors of achievement over what reaching level 10 requires. The amount of treasure would be commensurately greater. DMG minimum guidelines for character starting at level 10 and 20 are such that:

The Wizard has, in total, at most 750gp and at most 1 uncommon magic item.
The Fighter has at least 20,000+gp and at least 2 uncommon magic items.

If we're using the high magic scenario:

The Wizard could have a Wand of Magic Missiles.
The Fighter could have: A rod of absorption (a; vr), Ring of free action (a; r), cape of the mountebank, etc...

MaxWilson

2016-05-18, 05:12 PM

It's not how the spell works, so I don't follow why you think this should even be stated.

You're wrong.

When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings,
does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that
are conjured? A number of spells in the game let you summon
creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure
minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a
few examples.
Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster
chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar
gives the caster a list of animals to choose from.
Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from
among several broad options. For example, conjure minor
elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster
chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what
creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example,
if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals
that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower.
A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what
creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if
they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate
for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce
in a scene.

Therefore, I have my moon druid expressing a preference, exactly as Sage Advice says. No guarantees on whether I'm going to get what I prefer, but at least I'm asking. It's up to the DM what he does with that.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 05:18 PM

That's legitimately not how the spell works. If I said the tactic of my hypothetical level 1 Cleric were to will the Fighter to death using the power of bad thoughts (even though that's not a thing), would you also give credence to it?

See, my home DM would allow it to work, and I must admit I'm not too familiar with what part of what happened being against RAW. From what I understand, the RAW is that the player does not necessarily get to pick the creature summoned, nor can the spell summon different kinds of creatures; rather, the spell summons a number of a particular creature the DM feels is appropriate to the area, with the player only picking the CR.

Acting under the assumption that your issue is with summoning multiple kinds of creatures that were of the players choice, I'm going to go find a completely different CR 1/4 beast, and see what summoning 16 of them does to the Fighter's Hit Points.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 06:15 PM

Let's see what 16 Giant Poisonous Snakes have to say about this Fighter...

Druid summons GPS in surprise round, turns into a living boulder, and goes to ground.

Fighter wins initiative, Action Surges against Snakes. Each attack with the Sharpshooter tradeoff, assuming disadvantage from using a ranged weapon in melee, deals 11.07 ([{175*0}+{216*19.5}+{9*24}]/400) damage, and can thus be assumed to take out 1 GPS.

The 8 remaining GPS's attack; their average damage per attack is 5.4125 ([{11*0}+{8*11.75}+{1*14.25}]/20), including poison, putting the total damage at 43.3; the druid adds two Earth Elemental attacks to this, dealing another 9.55 ([{7*0}+{12*14}+{1*23}]/20) per attack. The Fighter is now at 141.6 HP.

The Fighter's next AS takes out the remaining snakes. The Druid retreats behind a nearby tree, returns to human form, and summons 16 more. These summons lose initiative to the Fighter.

Fighter attacks, taking out 4 snakes; the remaining 12 attack, as the Druid returns to elemental form and gets in position to attack. Fighter is now at 85.65 HP (including Survivor).

Fighter attacks, taking out 4 more; the remaining 8 attack...as does the druid. Fighter is now at 32.25 after Survivor.

Fighter attacks, taking out 4 more, and using Second Wind. Remaining 4 attack, as does the Druid. Fighter is now at 26 HP after Second Wind and Survivor.

Fighter attacks, taking out 4 more. Druid retreats, returns to human form, and summons 8 more.

Fighter takes out 4, recovers 9 HP; remaining 4 attack, and Druid uses Produce Flame, dealing 4.05 ([{12*0}+{7*9}+{1*18}]/20). Fighter is now at 9.3 HP.

Fighter takes out last 4, recovers 9 HP. Druid summons 8 more.

Fighter takes out 4, recovers 9 HP. Remaining 4 attack, as does Druid with Produce Flame; Fighter is reduced to 1.6 HP.

Fighter takes out last 4, recovers 9 HP. Druid summon 8 more with last 3rd lvl slot (4th lvl slots untouched).

Fighter takes out 4, regains 9 HP. Remaining 4 attack, as does Druid with Produce Flame. Fighter is reduced to 0 HP.

It's a bit more drawn out than before; turns out dedicating some of your summons to knocking the Fighter prone is a worthwhile move. Still, with enough summonings, it's definitely possible. Sure, you could probably target the Druid instead, after they've truly revealed themselves, but that's 4 wolves getting to attack an extra round for every round you're putting 4 shots into the Druid; it doesn't help that the Druid is basically gonna make all their Con saves, so you're just taking an extra 21 damage for the satisfaction of damaging the person responsible, basically. And considering they spend that portion of the fight shooting from behind a tree, cover comes into play (although not much, because Sharpshooter).

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-18, 06:19 PM

You're wrong.

Therefore, I have my moon druid expressing a preference, exactly as Sage Advice says. No guarantees on whether I'm going to get what I prefer, but at least I'm asking. It's up to the DM what he does with that.

That's no more impactful than my expressing a preference for playing at night and so the DM might take that into account. The DM can take anything into account and we as players could express any preference. The statement is utterly without meaning.

AvatarVecna, the spell has the DM choose the actual forms of the fey summoned, caster solely chooses an option encapsulating a number and maximum CR. Sure some tables might house rule that the player chooses, but a white room scenario should use the default rules of the game, not house rules like player choosing creatures.

MaxWilson

2016-05-18, 06:31 PM

That's no more impactful than my expressing a preference for playing at night and so the DM might take that into account. The DM can take anything into account and we as players could express any preference. The statement is utterly without meaning.

But that would be the player expressing a preference. In this case, it is the PC expressing a preference. It's at the game level, not the metagame level.

In any case, Sage Advice says it's appropriate to express a preference, so your objection to my doing so is irrelevant and invalid. Next!

That's no more impactful than my expressing a preference for playing at night and so the DM might take that into account. The DM can take anything into account and we as players could express any preference. The statement is utterly without meaning.

AvatarVecna, the spell has the DM choose the actual forms of the fey summoned, caster solely chooses an option encapsulating a number and maximum CR. Sure some tables might house rule that the player chooses, but a white room scenario should use the default rules of the game, not house rules like player choosing creatures.

That's not under dispute. The only question here is "what is the DM going to choose?"

In practice, good DMs will establish their own rules in advance, whether that means random tables (possibly based on environment) or some form of caster choice or a codified form of DM's whim ("trust me, I'll give you something worthwhile").

AvatarVecna, with all poisonous snakes, you can still have them knock the fighter prone before the rest begin attacking. The basic tactics I outlined are independent of exactly which animals show up.

The math you're using (assuming that 1 attack = 1 dead snake) is over-generous to the fighter, since in reality it's just under two hits to kill each snake. This is a case where pure DPR comparisons lead you astray.

It's DM's call whether the snakes would get to act on the round they're summoned. I use a variant initiative system so it's simple for me to just declare them surprised on the round they're summoned; if I were using cyclic initiative (blech) I have no clue where I would insert them in the initiative order. Letting them act immediately seems inappropriate; making them roll initiative and inserting them wherever they roll makes it paradoxically worse to roll well on initiative; inserting them all on the druid's initiative makes them weak on round one but allows them to perfectly coordinate on subsequent rounds, which is also a bit overpowered. No good solutions that I can see, but that's cyclic initiative for you. I see you chose to make them lose the first round; that's reasonable but I want to note that it will probably vary per-table.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 06:57 PM

That's not under dispute. The only question here is "what is the DM going to choose?"

In practice, good DMs will establish their own rules in advance, whether that means random tables (possibly based on environment) or some form of caster choice or a codified form of DM's whim ("trust me, I'll give you something worthwhile").

AvatarVecna, with all poisonous snakes, you can still have them knock the fighter prone before the rest begin attacking. The basic tactics I outlined are independent of exactly which animals show up.

The math you're using (assuming that 1 attack = 1 dead snake) is over-generous to the fighter, since in reality it's just under two hits to kill each snake. This is a case where pure DPR comparisons lead you astray.

Fair enough about the prone tactic; still, the odds of the snakes knocking down the Fighter (Athletics vs Acrobatics) are low enough that you'd need several attempts to have a decent chance; the point when there's 12 snakes and 2 druid attacks would allow the Druid to use their Earth Elemental form to make Trip Attempts (much more likely to succeed than the snake's attempts). You could probably speed things up a good bit by doing it this way, by the point of my post was that it's not necessary.

The assumption of 1 attack=1 dead snake is correct assuming Sharpshooter tradeoff; the fighter has disadvantage, but they have +8 to hit and deal 1d8+15 on a hit; as long as they hit, the Snake dies...and they hit 72.25% of the time.

MaxWilson

2016-05-18, 07:06 PM

Fair enough about the prone tactic; still, the odds of the snakes knocking down the Fighter (Athletics vs Acrobatics) are low enough that you'd need several attempts to have a decent chance; the point when there's 12 snakes and 2 druid attacks would allow the Druid to use their Earth Elemental form to make Trip Attempts (much more likely to succeed than the snake's attempts). You could probably speed things up a good bit by doing it this way, by the point of my post was that it's not necessary.

The assumption of 1 attack=1 dead snake is correct assuming Sharpshooter tradeoff; the fighter has disadvantage, but they have +8 to hit and deal 1d8+15 on a hit; as long as they hit, the Snake dies...and they hit 72.25% of the time.

How do you get 72.25%? You said disadvantage, and the snakes have AC 14, which means the fighter hits on a 6 or better (75% of the time). At disadvantage, that means he'll hit (0.75)^2 = 56.25% of the time. Each hit is a kill, so it takes 1/0.5625 = 1.77 hits to kill each snake. That means the snakes last very nearly twice as long as you were assuming, and will inflict about twice(?) as much total damage you computed before all dying. (I haven't done the math to know exactly how much.)

I mean, it's not a big deal either way because either way the (Champion) fighter loses, but it's really not close.

The Eldritch Knight on the other hand will school the druid hard.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-18, 07:13 PM

How do you get 72.25%? You said disadvantage, and the snakes have AC 14, which means the fighter hits on a 6 or better (75% of the time). At disadvantage, that means he'll hit (0.75)^2 = 56.25% of the time. Each hit is a kill, so it takes 1/0.5625 = 1.77 hits to kill each snake. That means the snakes last very nearly twice as long as you were assuming, and will inflict about twice(?) as much total damage you computed before all dying. (I haven't done the math to know exactly how much.)

I mean, it's not a big deal either way because either way the (Champion) fighter loses, but it's really not close.

The Eldritch Knight on the other hand will school the druid hard.

Ah, I see. I was calculating for the wrong AC! Apologies...yeah, that makes this a lot more one-sided.

Mellack

2016-05-18, 10:05 PM

wunderkid

2016-05-18, 10:11 PM

Not that it is likely to make much of a difference, but 12 GPS cannot all attack on the same round without at least one AoO. Only 8 medium creatures can fit around the fighter at one time. Right now you have them doing some sort of conga line.

You can move before, between or after attacks though can't you? So it should be pretty easy to weave attacks in?

bid

2016-05-18, 10:19 PM

You can move before, between or after attacks though can't you? So it should be pretty easy to weave attacks in?
AoO = attack of opportunity.

Mellack

2016-05-18, 10:29 PM

You can move before, between or after attacks though can't you? So it should be pretty easy to weave attacks in?

Yes, they can move in and out, but the fighter can punish one of them with an attack of opportunity. Depending on the fighter build that might have almost no effect or kill the creature.

Gwendol

2016-05-19, 02:33 AM

Male Hill Dwarf Outlander Druid 10
True Neutral

1 ASI, 1 Feat

Strength 12 (+1)
Dexterity 12 (+1)
Constitution 18 (+4)
Intelligence 10 (+0)
Wisdom 17 (+3)
Charisma 8 (-1)

HP: 103 (incl Hill Dwarf bonus)

Armor Class: 14 = 10 + 1 [leather] + 2 [wood shield] + 1 [dexterity]

Proficiency bonus: +4
Initiative modifier: + 1 = + 1 [dexterity]
Attack (handheld / thrown): + 5 = + 1 [strength] + 4 [proficiency]
Attack (missile / finesse): + 5 = + 1 [dexterity] + 4 [proficiency]
Strength save: + 1 = + 1 [strength]
Dexterity save: + 1 = + 1 [dexterity]
Constitution save: + 8 = + 4 [resilient feat]
Intelligence save: + 4 = + 4 [proficiency]
Wisdom save: + 7 = + 3 [wisdom] + 4 [proficiency]
Charisma save: -1 = -1 [charisma]
Insight (passive): 13 (18 with advantage)
Investigation (passive): 10 (15 with advantage)
Perception (passive): 17 (22 with advantage)

Carry: 180 lb maximum

Languages: Common Druidic Dwarvish Primordial

Unarmed strike [+5 to hit; 1+1 bludgeoning]

Sling [+5 to hit; 1d6+1 bludgeoning, 1 lb, ammunition (range 30/120)]

Scimitar [+5 to hit; 1d6+1 slashing, 3 lb, finesse, light]

Leather armor [light; + 1 AC; 10 lb.]

Wood Shield [+2 AC; 6 lb.]

Skills: Athletics, Nature, Perception, Survival

Feats:

Resilient -- Constitution +1 constitution; add proficiency to save

Druid spells:

Cantrips: Shillelagh, Produce flame, Druidcraft, Guidance

Prepared spells: 13

First-level castings: 4/day
Second-level castings: 3/day
Third-level castings: 3/day
Fourth-level castings: 3/day
Fifth-level castings: 2/day

Longstrider
Fog cloud
Goodberry
Entangle

Barkskin
Heat metal
Pass without trace

Dispel magic
Conjure animals
Wind wall

Conjure woodland being
Freedom of Movement

Mass cure wounds

General strategy:

Undetected (?) through pass without trace, Longstrider precast (and Barkskin)?

Open up with Conjure Animals (5th)
Follow up with either another casting, or Conjure Woodland being (CR 1/4)
Hit with Produce Flame while fighter works through the summons.

If summons depleted, or if needing to help out more, turn into earth elemental and join the fray. Use earth glide to hit and run.

MaxWilson

2016-05-19, 03:30 AM

Not that it is likely to make much of a difference, but 12 GPS cannot all attack on the same round without at least one AoO. Only 8 medium creatures can fit around the fighter at one time. Right now you have them doing some sort of conga line.

Eat the AoO. The fighter's wielding a bow anyway, so he can only take the opportunity attack with what, his fists?

Shaofoo

2016-05-19, 05:04 AM

*sigh*

1. Doesn't matter. It could happen literally that instant. I only need Contingency -> Res Sphere for if I lose Initiative. Two more spell slots would be nice but c'est la vie.

Also, have you heard of Leomund's Tiny Hut? What level 13+ Wizard have you seen would allow any circumstances from imposing on them before they long rest?

What about Leomund's Tiny Hut? It prevents nothing. It isn't indestructible like a Wall of Force.

You know what? Fine. I cast Magnificent Mansion. Long Rest inside, cast Contingency, wait 24hrs, recast Magnificent Mansion, another long rest. Literally nothing a Fighter can do about it and bam, both spell slots.

So the the Fighter wins because if being at 600 feet is running away then shifting into another plane should also be an automatic disqualification by your logic. I think most people would readily disqualify the Wizard if he is outside the arena plane.

2. Except spell components are literally in the PHB? Except that a Wizard can literally CREATE their own spell components per the PHB + Fabricate spell? Anyone who argues that spell components, expensive or otherwise, is somehow equal to a Magical Weapon, is just laughably wrong.

If you can point to me where is the Spell Component list in the Equipment chapter of the PHB then you'd have a point. As it stands while it can be available it is up to the DM to decide.

3. SEE ABOVE POST FOR DDOOR + WOF/FORCECAGE. Your distance means nothing to a level 13+ Wizard.

You didn't mention Dimension Door. And you also left the Simulacrum behind that is casting Magic Jar (minute long cast time)

4. AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Really? A level 13+ Wizard can't get 1,500gp (same price as Plate armor) of ruby? Are you kidding me? You honestly must be joking because otherwise I'm not sure how else to take this.

With Fabricate, I am curious to see how can a Wizard gain 1,500 of ruby with just his spells. Really tell me how can you make rubies with Fabricate since you seem to be enamored with the spell.

5. Fighter can play as smart as they want, they aren't beating a level 13+ Wizard that ALSO PLAYS SMART.

Sure it can happen but I am just saying that you are saying that the Fighter isn't being smart by just charging forward.

Sorry if it seems that I have struck a nerve there.

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 11:08 AM

What about Leomund's Tiny Hut? It prevents nothing. It isn't indestructible like a Wall of Force.

So the the Fighter wins because if being at 600 feet is running away then shifting into another plane should also be an automatic disqualification by your logic. I think most people would readily disqualify the Wizard if he is outside the arena plane.

If you can point to me where is the Spell Component list in the Equipment chapter of the PHB then you'd have a point. As it stands while it can be available it is up to the DM to decide.

You didn't mention Dimension Door. And you also left the Simulacrum behind that is casting Magic Jar (minute long cast time)

With Fabricate, I am curious to see how can a Wizard gain 1,500 of ruby with just his spells. Really tell me how can you make rubies with Fabricate since you seem to be enamored with the spell.

Sure it can happen but I am just saying that you are saying that the Fighter isn't being smart by just charging forward.

Sorry if it seems that I have struck a nerve there.

I'm really sorry you don't seem capable of reading what's been written in this (by now) rather lengthy thread. It would save you a significant amount of time and being wrong about a significant number of things.

For example, what astounding leap of logic did you need to make to somehow conflate the Magic Jar tactic with the DDoor + WoF? No, I wouldn't have a Simulacrum sitting there casting Magic Jar while we got pelted for 1 minute. Did you seriously think they were all the same tactic???

IF Fighter starts more than 150ft away, use DDoor + WoF.

IF Fighter is trapped in WoF/Forcecage, THEN use Magic Jar.

Tada. Please see the rest of the thread for answers you should already know.

Shaofoo

2016-05-19, 11:20 AM

I will just address the point that I wish to discuss without wanting to derail this thread any further than the actual topic.

My point is that there is a difference between a class and a character in my point, a class is incapable of getting things like wealth and items and preparation time because these are beyond the concept of the class itself. A Wizard does not just start off 12 hours earlier with a Simulacrum in tow nor a Fighter start with 750 hirelings. A character can have a Simulacrum or an army but that is because he gained resources from being inside a world, not because the class itself gives them.

This is why I say things like no preparation time and no wealth and items beyond the starting gear, that is a true test on how the class fares against one another, or like I said before, is the point to stack the deck towards the wizard or whichever class until he can beat a level 20 fighter? Of course a lot of people are convinced that a mid level wizard will have a very hard if not impossible time to deal with a fighter.

Maybe I should make a thread on how much stacking do you need to make a Fighter 10 beat a Wizard 20.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-19, 11:59 AM

Maybe I should make a thread on how much stacking do you need to make a Fighter 10 beat a Wizard 20.

Gotta admit that as difficult as Caster 10 vs Fighter 20 is, Fighter 10 vs Caster 20 is even worse. Ultimately, Caster 20 is a lot more versatile a set-up than Fighter 20; Fighter just has their AC and HP to defend them (and maybe a few other things), where casters have access to quite a sizable pile of bull****, as this thread has shown. Biggest problem I see with trying to take out a Wizard 20 is that, if you can't manage to kill them before they get a turn, they can teleport away. Now, Fighter could Action Surge for extra attacks, but maximum we're looking at from this set-up is maybe 8 attacks (if they have a dependable source of bonus action attacking); they'll want advantage, they'll probably want to be in melee to get good damage...

After running the numbers really quick, I think about the only chance it has of actually working is if the Mage has Dex 10, Con 10, and no spell slots being used for long-term buffing (no Foresight, no Simulacrum, no Contingency, no Fire Shield, no Shield, not even Mage Armor)...and the Fighter has advantage to attack, auto-surprise on the Wizard, auto-winning initiative, advantage on all attacks, Str 20, and Great Weapon Master. The biggest issues there on the Fighter side of things is taking the Wizard by surprise (when you're not exactly a stealth-master) and advantage on all attacks...but both can be explained by "the Fighter sneaks up on the sleeping Wizard, who forgot to put up defenses or overnight buffs".

The Fighter winning this scenario, however, is so heavily dependent on the Wizard being played as (and by) a complete moron, that it would basically never happen. In a million years, nobody will ever build a Wizard 20 with Dex 10 and Con 10 who doesn't even have the sense of self-preservation to put up a freaking Alarm spell, much less more significant defenses.

MaxWilson

2016-05-19, 12:44 PM

AvatarVecna

2016-05-19, 01:22 PM

I can imagine a Fighter 10 taking out a Cleric 20 given sufficient advantages (e.g. drow sleep poison). Clerics are probably the worst casters in a solo scenario.

Moon Druid 20, not so much.

BTW, it's not so unbelievable that the wizard wouldn't have buffs like Foresight up if we're talking about "random fighter and random wizard stumble across each other in a town somewhere and instantly hate each other." Foresight only lasts 8 hours out of 24, and it forecloses your options for Shapechange/True Polymorph/Meteor Swarm/etc.

Oh absolutely! Having Foresight up is a great option for more combat-oriented casters, like Valor Bards and Bladelocks who are actually going to use it, but for a caster who focuses on casting, it can be a bit of a let-down.

But my Fighter scenario assumed surprise, winning initiative, advantage on all attacks, Dex 10, Con 10, no Mage Armor, no Shield spell, no other buffs. Foresight is among the possible other buffs, sure, and Foresight is unlikely to be up all day, but no Mage Armor? Is a 1st level slot or two just too much investment for the ability to not get ganked by uppity wannabes in a surprise round? And no Shield spells? This requires the Wizard (and their player) to be a particular brand of moron. With even slight increases to Dex and Con (and making use of Mage Armor and Shield), the odds that the Fighter can gank the Wizard in melee go down dramatically, and depend on the Fighter getting both Surprise and Initiative in their favor (and advantage on all attacks without them spending any attacks knocking the Wizard down themselves).

EDIT: Of course, the part about surprise and initiative becomes moot if Contingency is in play, but that's high enough level a spell that we could probably get away with pretending the Wizard wouldn't have one at all times.

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 01:33 PM

smcmike

2016-05-19, 01:39 PM

Any 20th level Wizard is going to have Contingency up at all times, that's like not even a choice.

Regardless, the biggest problem is that a 20th level Wizard will also have Infinite-1 number of Demiplanes filled with Clones, spare spellbooks, and spare spell casting focuses.

Basically, that means even if you manage to kill the Wizard in its sleep, it will simply wake up on a Demiplane that you can't get access to, grab their spellbook + focus, and Banish/Teleport themselves right back to the Fighter.

That's a lot of assumption making. I agree that these are all reasonable possibilities, and also that any 20th level wizard will have many resources, but infinite demiplanes? This sounds much more like a theoretical perfect wizard than a baseline.

By this, I mean that if I were to get a wizard to level 20, there's basically no chance I would bother with all that.

Also, what is the contingency, exactly? Just curious.

RickAllison

2016-05-19, 01:42 PM

Any 20th level Wizard is going to have Contingency up at all times, that's like not even a choice.

Regardless, the biggest problem is that a 20th level Wizard will also have Infinite-1 number of Demiplanes filled with Clones, spare spellbooks, and spare spell casting focuses.

Basically, that means even if you manage to kill the Wizard in its sleep, it will simply wake up on a Demiplane that you can't get access to, grab their spellbook + focus, and Banish/Teleport themselves right back to the Fighter.

As smcmike asked, what is your Contingency? Clones cost money and time, so the odds of him having infinity-1 numbers are unlikely. Teleport would work, but wasn't the Clone born on the Demiplane?

AvatarVecna

2016-05-19, 01:46 PM

That's a lot of assumption making. I agree that these are all reasonable possibilities, and also that any 20th level wizard will have many resources, but infinite demiplanes? This sounds much more like a theoretical perfect wizard than a baseline.

By this, I mean that if I were to get a wizard to level 20, there's basically no chance I would bother with all that.

Also, what is the contingency, exactly? Just curious.

Infinite demiplanes is certainly a theoretical possibility, albeit one that's unlikely to occur in a real game, but if the Wizard has even a single Clone-in-a-jar somewhere, killing the Wizard won't actually kill them.

As for Contingency, it's basically a spell that let's you cast another spell, but hold the effect of the spell until it gets triggered by a condition you specify. As a rather obvious and classic example, "Contingency: Dimension Door if I fall below half health". If you fall below half health for the next 10 days, the Contingency activates and you can travel to somewhere 500 ft away from the Fighter attacking you...preferably somewhere the Fighter doesn't have immediate Line Of Sight to you. After that, you can reassess the situation and decide if you want to immediately engage the Fighter, or if you want to do so after you've rested and re-prepared spells specifically for the purpose of killing that Fighter.

smcmike

2016-05-19, 01:47 PM

smcmike

2016-05-19, 01:51 PM

Infinite demiplanes is certainly a theoretical possibility, albeit one that's unlikely to occur in a real game, but if the Wizard has even a single Clone-in-a-jar somewhere, killing the Wizard won't actually kill them.

As for Contingency, it's basically a spell that let's you cast another spell, but hold the effect of the spell until it gets triggered by a condition you specify. As a rather obvious and classic example, "Contingency: Dimension Door if I fall below half health". If you fall below half health for the next 10 days, the Contingency activates and you can travel to somewhere 500 ft away from the Fighter attacking you...preferably somewhere the Fighter doesn't have immediate Line Of Sight to you. After that, you can reassess the situation and decide if you want to immediately engage the Fighter, or if you want to do so after you've rested and re-prepared spells specifically for the purpose of killing that Fighter.

Sure, I read the Contingency, I was just wondering how exactly he was proposing to use it. Also, it seems like it might be reasonable to require that the contingency be phrased in in-character terms, rather than game abstractions (I'm sure it's played in abstractions too).

As for the clone, yeah, most 20th level wizards will probably have one or two (all they need) - unless they have a moral aversion to necromancy...

mgshamster

2016-05-19, 01:57 PM

*shrug*

No idea to be honest. Truthfully, if it was just a fight I wouldn't even bother with all of that, just do the Cloudkill + WoF and call it a day.

I just love Magic Jar because it's hilarious. I really wish it gave you their class abilities but sadly not. I put it in my list of spells that are terribly broken and really never going to see in a real game, like Arcane Eye.

Cloud kill moves away from the caster at a movement rate of 10 ft per round. So that's two-three rounds of damage against the fighter for the 5th level spell slot. It's also concentration, so the caster has to make concentration checks every time he takes damage. And it's going up against one of the fighters best saves, so it's most likely going to do half damage.

There's probably a better option.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-19, 01:57 PM

Sure, I read the Contingency, I was just wondering how exactly he was proposing to use it. Also, it seems like it might be reasonable to require that the contingency be phrased in in-character terms, rather than game abstractions (I'm sure it's played in abstractions too).

As for the clone, yeah, most 20th level wizards will probably have one or two (all they need) - unless they have a moral aversion to necromancy...

*shrug* Significantly injured, then...or injured at all. Specifying a particular level of health in-character requires a discussion with your DM about what exactly Hit Points represent, and I'd much prefer to stay away from that mess.

And yeah, unless they have a problem with Necromancy, the odds of a 20th level Wizard not having so much as a single Clone hidden away in a secret fortress or something is weird.

Shaofoo

2016-05-19, 03:36 PM

Gotta admit that as difficult as Caster 10 vs Fighter 20 is, Fighter 10 vs Caster 20 is even worse. Ultimately, Caster 20 is a lot more versatile a set-up than Fighter 20; Fighter just has their AC and HP to defend them (and maybe a few other things), where casters have access to quite a sizable pile of bull****, as this thread has shown. Biggest problem I see with trying to take out a Wizard 20 is that, if you can't manage to kill them before they get a turn, they can teleport away. Now, Fighter could Action Surge for extra attacks, but maximum we're looking at from this set-up is maybe 8 attacks (if they have a dependable source of bonus action attacking); they'll want advantage, they'll probably want to be in melee to get good damage...

After running the numbers really quick, I think about the only chance it has of actually working is if the Mage has Dex 10, Con 10, and no spell slots being used for long-term buffing (no Foresight, no Simulacrum, no Contingency, no Fire Shield, no Shield, not even Mage Armor)...and the Fighter has advantage to attack, auto-surprise on the Wizard, auto-winning initiative, advantage on all attacks, Str 20, and Great Weapon Master. The biggest issues there on the Fighter side of things is taking the Wizard by surprise (when you're not exactly a stealth-master) and advantage on all attacks...but both can be explained by "the Fighter sneaks up on the sleeping Wizard, who forgot to put up defenses or overnight buffs".

The Fighter winning this scenario, however, is so heavily dependent on the Wizard being played as (and by) a complete moron, that it would basically never happen. In a million years, nobody will ever build a Wizard 20 with Dex 10 and Con 10 who doesn't even have the sense of self-preservation to put up a freaking Alarm spell, much less more significant defenses.

You have stumbled upon what I have been talking about. There is a difference between class and characters. You are right that no one in an actual game will skimp on Dex and Con (maybe Dex if you are full plate and don't care about initiative) and in an actual game that you'd have wealth to gain the material components needed to cast any spells (and if they don't exist then the DM would say that the spell as it is written does not exist) and that you'd probably be prepared as well. But as classes these things do not exist, there is no time before the class, only the now.

In an actual world and game there is a ton more that you can do because those don't depend directly on your class, your class can help you but they don't come as a result of the class. You can gain extra attacks as a Fighter and use that to win in an arena for the prize of a magic sword but the Fighter class doesn't give you the opportunity to fight for the magic sword.

And of course the metric on how to win should be defined, you said that the Wizard can teleport but to where? To safety? anywhere but where he is? In an actual world you could easily define these things but in a whiteroom this becomes very nebulous. And would the fight still be ongoing or would the wizard lose, keep in mind that someone said that the fighter maintaining a distance of 600 feet was called forfeiting the match but the wizard can spend 2 days in his private demiplane to rest up to full while the fighter twiddles his thumbs apparently okay (hence why I sometimes thing the deck is stacked against the fighter, regardless of level disparity).

If you want to know what I am getting at why don't we add magic items and spellcasting (you can buy spells from other spellcasters) for the Fighter, what is the minimum that he needs to beat a Wizard that isn't playing dumb but isn't buffed up at all because that would be as close to evaluating the class as possible. And I would add again that anything that needs DM intervention should be eliminated (like the WoF squeezing shenanigans).

And playing dumb adds another thing, because I am sure you can afflict the Wizard with Stupid Fighter Syndrome and just have him charge and melee the Fighter with his quarterstaff and nothing else regardless of stats. I think that in that case the Fighter would win hands down.

mgshamster

2016-05-19, 03:40 PM

You are right that no one in an actual game will skimp on Dex and Con

My beast master ranger in Curse of Strahd has an 8 Con.

I did it just to see how it would turn out.

Hasn't been an issue yet. :)

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 03:52 PM

As smcmike asked, what is your Contingency? Clones cost money and time, so the odds of him having infinity-1 numbers are unlikely. Teleport would work, but wasn't the Clone born on the Demiplane?

Wish -> Clone removes the cost and can be done every day. Wizard wakes up with nothing to do that day? Cast Demiplane (no cost), walk in, cast Wish -> Clone, walk back out.

The spellbook is honestly the potentially most costly part due to uncertainty about whether you can use spells to make duplicates. Really you'd only need to always have Demiplane prepared with 4-5 spare spell books. Then if you wake up in a Clone that's on a Demiplane without one, just cast Demiplane again to one that you know has a spellbook.

Funnily enough, Contingency is so vague you can word it as "When I'm targeted for an aggressive act" and you're golden for everyday stuff (see other spells like Sanctuary for similar triggers). You're a level 20 Wizard so even if people trigger it as a way to flush it out, you obliterate the individual before going back to your MMM or Demiplane to rest up and get it back. Level 20 Wizards get that way either through sheer dumb luck/plot armor, or by being way, way paranoid.

But yeah if you want to do it against a completely idiotic Wizard, just don't have Contingencies, Demiplanes with Clones, and ambush him in the bathtub so you can drown him (no verbal components) with a hood over his head (no line of sight). But that sort of player would never get to be a level 20 Wizard in the first place.

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 03:56 PM

*snip*

And of course the metric on how to win should be defined, you said that the Wizard can teleport but to where? To safety? anywhere but where he is? In an actual world you could easily define these things but in a whiteroom this becomes very nebulous. And would the fight still be ongoing or would the wizard lose, keep in mind that someone said that the fighter maintaining a distance of 600 feet was called forfeiting the match but the wizard can spend 2 days in his private demiplane to rest up to full while the fighter twiddles his thumbs apparently okay (hence why I sometimes thing the deck is stacked against the fighter, regardless of level disparity).

*snip*

FYI, if you read the chain of comments that was in response to, you'll see that the 2 days in the MMM was because some poster wanted to postulate that the Fighter would be ambushing the Wizard immediately after he cast Contingency. Not that the Wizard would cast MMM during the fight. It was my rather obvious comment that yes, a Wizard is going to have Contingency up at all times and both spell slots (Contingency + Spell used) available after the long rest.

smcmike

2016-05-19, 04:03 PM

Wish -> Clone removes the cost and can be done every day. Wizard wakes up with nothing to do that day? Cast Demiplane (no cost), walk in, cast Wish -> Clone, walk back out.

Good point. Another question, though - can you really have more than one clone active? I know there isn't any explicit limit in the spell, but the confusion of which one to go to seems problematic.

Funnily enough, Contingency is so vague you can word it as "When I'm targeted for an aggressive act" and you're golden for everyday stuff (see other spells like Sanctuary for similar triggers). You're a level 20 Wizard so even if people trigger it as a way to flush it out, you obliterate the individual before going back to your MMM or Demiplane to rest up and get it back. Level 20 Wizards get that way either through sheer dumb luck/plot armor, or by being way, way paranoid.

So you are saying I can send the Wizard packing to his demiplane for a day every time he shows his face, simply by paying some sucker to throw a clod of dirt at him?

Also, what spell are you tying to it?

Xetheral

2016-05-19, 04:05 PM

Infinite demiplanes is certainly a theoretical possibility, albeit one that's unlikely to occur in a real game, but if the Wizard has even a single Clone-in-a-jar somewhere, killing the Wizard won't actually kill them.

As for Contingency, it's basically a spell that let's you cast another spell, but hold the effect of the spell until it gets triggered by a condition you specify. As a rather obvious and classic example, "Contingency: Dimension Door if I fall below half health". If you fall below half health for the next 10 days, the Contingency activates and you can travel to somewhere 500 ft away from the Fighter attacking you...preferably somewhere the Fighter doesn't have immediate Line Of Sight to you. After that, you can reassess the situation and decide if you want to immediately engage the Fighter, or if you want to do so after you've rested and re-prepared spells specifically for the purpose of killing that Fighter.

Contingency: Dimension Door sounds terribly problematic... it doesn't appear from the spell description that you get to decide anything about how it activates at the time of activation, and knowing where you'll want to go in advance is rather tricky.

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 04:07 PM

Cloud kill moves away from the caster at a movement rate of 10 ft per round. So that's two-three rounds of damage against the fighter for the 5th level spell slot. It's also concentration, so the caster has to make concentration checks every time he takes damage. And it's going up against one of the fighters best saves, so it's most likely going to do half damage.

There's probably a better option.

Except the Cloudkill is now trapped inside of a WoF, which prevents it from moving anywhere. So the Fighter takes 5d8 Poison damage (average 22.5), for 10 minutes. Even making their save every single time and having resistance to Poison (let's say it's a Dwarf), the Fighter takes 5.625 damage every round. A Champ fighter could outheal that, but a Champ fighter is no threat through other spells.

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 04:12 PM

Good point. Another question, though - can you really have more than one clone active? I know there isn't any explicit limit in the spell, but the confusion of which one to go to seems problematic.

So you are saying I can send the Wizard packing to his demiplane for a day every time he shows his face, simply by paying some sucker to throw a clod of dirt at him?

Also, what spell are you tying to it?

Please read the prior posts.

I would have Resilient Sphere as the spell.

You pay him, he triggers Resilient Sphere. I buff appropriately in the Sphere, obviously seeing the guy isn't a threat, disable and remove him to one of the Demiplanes, MMM, wherever is safe. Detect Thoughts -> rip out the image of who paid him, now I know what you look like. Scrying (or whatever) later, the Whiteroom fight analysis happens.

Or, you know, just have my Simulacrum do all that while I'm nice and cozy in my Resilient Sphere.

mgshamster

2016-05-19, 04:16 PM

Except the Cloudkill is now trapped inside of a WoF, which prevents it from moving anywhere. So the Fighter takes 5d8 Poison damage (average 22.5), for 10 minutes. Even making their save every single time and having resistance to Poison (let's say it's a Dwarf), the Fighter takes 5.625 damage every round. A Champ fighter could outheal that, but a Champ fighter is no threat through other spells.

That doesn't follow. If it can get in, it can get out. If it can't get out, it couldn't have gotten in to begin with.

You can't have it both ways.

smcmike

2016-05-19, 04:21 PM

Please read the prior posts.

I would have Resilient Sphere as the spell.

You pay him, he triggers Resilient Sphere. I buff appropriately in the Sphere, obviously seeing the guy isn't a threat, disable and remove him to one of the Demiplanes, MMM, wherever is safe. Detect Thoughts -> rip out the image of who paid him, now I know what you look like. Scrying (or whatever) later, the Whiteroom fight analysis happens.

Or, you know, just have my Simulacrum do all that while I'm nice and cozy in my Resilient Sphere.

Oh, I see it now.

Of course, assuming that I let the clod-thrower see my face is QUITE a leap.

That doesn't follow. If it can get in, it can get out. If it can't get out, it couldn't have gotten in to begin with.

You can't have it both ways.

He's using a simulacrum to cast two things at once.

Xetheral

2016-05-19, 04:22 PM

Please read the prior posts.

I would have Resilient Sphere as the spell.

You pay him, he triggers Resilient Sphere. I buff appropriately in the Sphere, obviously seeing the guy isn't a threat, disable and remove him to one of the Demiplanes, MMM, wherever is safe. Detect Thoughts -> rip out the image of who paid him, now I know what you look like. Scrying (or whatever) later, the Whiteroom fight analysis happens.

Or, you know, just have my Simulacrum do all that while I'm nice and cozy in my Resilient Sphere.

If your enemies know that your walk around with Contingency: Resilient Sphere up all the time, that seems like a weakness. They can, at will, render you unable to affect your environment for a full minute. That gives them time to kill your simulacrum, quickly create a hazardous environment, or coordinate a huge group to ready actions for when the Sphere falls. And since the sphere is, by definition, going to drop when it isn't your turn, you're potentially in trouble.

MaxWilson

2016-05-19, 04:22 PM

Wish -> Clone removes the cost and can be done every day. Wizard wakes up with nothing to do that day? Cast Demiplane (no cost), walk in, cast Wish -> Clone, walk back out.

Still takes four months (120 days) for the Clone to grow to maturity though. (And you still need the containment vessel too.) All Wish does is save you a 1000 gp diamond and a cubic inch of flesh.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-19, 04:23 PM

That doesn't follow. If it can get in, it can get out. If it can't get out, it couldn't have gotten in to begin with.

You can't have it both ways.

On the one hand, his original argument was that Wizard A could cast Forcecage, and then cast Cloudkill (dropping Forcecage since both are Concentration), while Wizard B (a Simulacrum of Wizard A) has a readied action to cast Forcecage when Cloudkill comes up. This would result in a Cloudkill within the Forcecage, but with the Forcecage not allowing the Cloudkill to leave.

On the other hand, the spell doesn't say that Cloudkill's movement away from the caster is the result of air currents or anything else even remotely physics based, so a pure RAW standpoint would be that, since the spell says the Cloudkill moves 10 ft away from where the caster was when it was cast, it continues doing, essentially teleporting itself around the Forcecage walls.

Yes, this is an incredibly stupid and pedantic ruling for how Cloudkill's innate movement interacts with Forcecage, Wall Of Force, and the like. Yes, I have had a DM rule it this way, since the interaction between "movement that can't be stopped" and "thing that stops all movement" was considered ambiguous. The DM was less happy when I used this ruling to my advantage later on, but them's the shakes.

mgshamster

2016-05-19, 04:27 PM

He's using a simulacrum to cast two things at once.

The sequence of events went like this:

Sim casts DD, both step through. Wiz casts WoF, leaving a partial opening so area of effect spells can get in.

Next round, Sim casts Cloud Kill.

He's claiming that the opening he left with WoF will allow cloud AoE spell to get in (which is likely true and reasonable), but they will also trap those AoE spells so they can't get out (which is what I'm contending), even if the spell description specifically states that the cloud moves away from the caster at a set movement rate.

Nevermind. I got the sequence wrong.

MaxWilson

2016-05-19, 04:27 PM

On the one hand, his original argument was that Wizard A could cast Forcecage, and then cast Cloudkill (dropping Forcecage since both are Concentration), while Wizard B (a Simulacrum of Wizard A) has a readied action to cast Forcecage when Cloudkill comes up. This would result in a Cloudkill within the Forcecage, but with the Forcecage not allowing the Cloudkill to leave.

On the other hand, the spell doesn't say that Cloudkill's movement away from the caster is the result of air currents or anything else even remotely physics based, so a pure RAW standpoint would be that, since the spell says the Cloudkill moves 10 ft away from where the caster was when it was cast, it continues doing, essentially teleporting itself around the Forcecage walls.

Yes, this is an incredibly stupid and pedantic ruling for how Cloudkill's innate movement interacts with Forcecage, Wall Of Force, and the like. Yes, I have had a DM rule it this way, since the interaction between "movement that can't be stopped" and "thing that stops all movement" was considered ambiguous. The DM was less happy when I used this ruling to my advantage later on, but them's the shakes.

It's also a stupid and pedantic argument which, unfortunately, changes nothing about the scenario except forcing the wizard to change every round which side of the Forcecage he is standing on.

mgshamster

2016-05-19, 04:31 PM

It's also a stupid and pedantic argument which, unfortunately, changes nothing about the scenario except forcing the wizard to change every round which side of the Forcecage he is standing on.

Only if you have a movement rate greater than 35, otherwise you're going to end up in the cloud itself!

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 04:34 PM

The sequence of events went like this:

Sim casts DD, both step through. Wiz casts WoF, leaving a partial opening so area of effect spells can get in.

Next round, Sim casts Cloud Kill.

He's claiming that the opening he left with WoF will allow cloud AoE spell to get in (which is likely true and reasonable), but they will also trap those AoE spells so they can't get out (which is what I'm contending), even if the spell description specifically states that the cloud moves away from the caster at a set movement rate.

Nevermind. I got the sequence wrong.

Not entirely.

DDoor -> WoF (full sphere, no opening).

Next round, Simulacrum readies Cloudkill for when WoF drops, on Wizard's turn, drops concentration on WoF, then immediately recast it, but after Cloudkill has already been cast.

Net result = a Cloudkill trapped inside a full sphere WoF. Nothing can pass through it physically or magically (which Cloudkill is both as a non-magical wind can disperse it). Worst case, Wizard just runs around the full sphere WoF so it keeps staying inside the WoF (as you beat your DM senseless for such a stupid ruling).

That's (one reason) why Simulacrum is broken.

AvatarVecna

2016-05-19, 04:36 PM

I guess while I'm waiting, I may as well request assistance: I haven't heard back from NewDM in awhile about what they want their character to do on their turn. I can only assume they'd want to attack, but since I'd rather not make decisions myself (to avoid contaminating the results), I'd rather take suggestions from others. What would you guys use if you were running NewDM's Bladesinger against JNA's Champion, keeping in mind that some versions of the Wizard have had Mirror Image stay up, while others have had it pop already?

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 04:36 PM

Still takes four months (120 days) for the Clone to grow to maturity though. (And you still need the containment vessel too.) All Wish does is save you a 1000 gp diamond and a cubic inch of flesh.

Wizard has had 3 levels (starting at 17) to be dropping Wish bombs. 120 days for permanent immortality, because you can have it be a younger body? No questions asked.

Wish just makes the spell happen, so it ignores the Containment vessel. Wish provides.

Vogonjeltz

2016-05-19, 04:38 PM

But that would be the player expressing a preference. In this case, it is the PC expressing a preference. It's at the game level, not the metagame level.

In any case, Sage Advice says it's appropriate to express a preference, so your objection to my doing so is irrelevant and invalid. Next!

The Sage Advice also says: "If you pick the second option...". The terms used are being applied equally to reference player and character, so spellcaster in this context also means the player. It's a meta construct.

However, even if I we were to consider this a valide course of action, there would remain the issue of this being a DM call to even consider it, according to the same sage advice. Consequently, we can't assume the Druid gets anything close to what they want, as there are far too many scenarios where they do not and those scenarios are equally, or more, valid than the proposed one.

That's not under dispute. The only question here is "what is the DM going to choose?"

The DMG has tables of CR appropriate creatures in the back, Appendix B, pages 302-309. They even, handily, split them up by appropriate terrain types. If this is a white room, we have to consider all possible terrain outcomes as that is something a DM may reasonably take into consideration:

Arctice (no snakes), Coastal (no snakes), Desert (constrictor/poisonus 2/4 possibilities), Forest (both, 2/13 possibilities), Grassland (poisonous only, 1/9 possibilities), Hill (no snakes), Mountain (no snakes), Swamp (both, 2/4 possibilities), Underdark (poisonous, 1/4 possibilities), Underwater (constrictor only possibility), Urban (poisonous).

Those possibilities don't include the lower CR things that certainly can show up instead of the max CR possible.

1. Doesn't matter. It could happen literally that instant. I only need Contingency -> Res Sphere for if I lose Initiative. Two more spell slots would be nice but c'est la vie.

Also, have you heard of Leomund's Tiny Hut? What level 13+ Wizard have you seen would allow any circumstances from imposing on them before they long rest?

Why wouldn't the Fighter take advantage of the 8 hours to bury the Hut under rubble? Or simply dig a hole under it? It only extends to the ground as a dome, that means anything could go under.

This is why I say things like no preparation time and no wealth and items beyond the starting gear, that is a true test on how the class fares against one another, or like I said before, is the point to stack the deck towards the wizard or whichever class until he can beat a level 20 fighter? Of course a lot of people are convinced that a mid level wizard will have a very hard if not impossible time to deal with a fighter.

The starting gear for a level 20 is dramatically better than the starting gear for a level 10 in all types of campaigns (low, moderate, high magic).

Not having gear at all literally stacks the deck by about 19,000 gold and half a dozen absurdly powerful magic items in favor of the Wizard.

if you can't manage to kill them before they get a turn, they can teleport away.

Which itself might very well kill them, provided they even still have the extremely high level spell slots available.

A level 20 Wizard would have approximately 72-172 hit points on average, the range variance being the difference from constitution modifier. That probably exceeds the Fighter's 1 turn output.

GWFS Greatsword EK that lands Hold Person would auto-crit 8d6+10 = 43.333 damage average 1st round, followed by 65 autocrit damage each additional round if using one of the melee cantrips and war magic, Wizard would reach death in 2-3 rounds on average. Attacking in advance would impose disadvantage on the Wizard's saving throw (albeit at the cost of some initial damage) so in the best case scenario (for the Fighter) the Wizard with maximum Wisom save would have a somewhat less than even chance of not being paralyzed on a first round where the EK gets to go first.

GWFS Greatsword Battlemaster could output (from action surge): 8d6+5d10+20. That's 80.8333, not enough to drop a Wizard with average hit points and who has higher than a +0 con mod. So, assuming a bell curve distribution is in play, only about 50% of all Wizards in existence can be instantly killed in the first round by a level 10 Battlemaster. If GWM is in play, damage could go up to 120.8333; if the Battlemaster gets crits (which would also double the superiority dice, iirc) that damage could go upwards of 208.333, which exceeds the average hit points of +6 con mod wizards.

GWFS Greatsword Champion is a bit put out, they have low burst so there's essentially no chance of dropping the Wizard dealing at most: 8d6+10 (if crits happen) or maybe 12d6+45 if crits happen and GWM is in play, dealing 95 damage average. Ok, I stand corrected, with 95 the Champion could, hypothetically, kill some of the lower constitution modification wizards in the first round. Actually I forgot to include action surge, so they could (hypothetically) deal: 158.333 damage on a string of 5 crits, which would be sufficient to kill all but the most hearty (read: +5 con mod bonus) Wizards, in the first round.

So it's well within the realm of possibility for a level 10 Fighter of any subclass to kill a level 20 Wizard before the Wizard can act. Now, how common is this? Well, it's whatever percentage of maximum output, then a percentage of opportunity to succeed at that first round for initiative. Purely off the cuff speculation suggest the probability stands at somewhere under 40% of the time though (even though it only required 'average' rolls to kill the average wizard), unless the Fighter has a high chance of succeeding at the initiative race, or is guaranteed to win it for some reason.

Any 20th level Wizard is going to have Contingency up at all times, that's like not even a choice.

Regardless, the biggest problem is that a 20th level Wizard will also have Infinite-1 number of Demiplanes filled with Clones, spare spellbooks, and spare spell casting focuses.

Basically, that means even if you manage to kill the Wizard in its sleep, it will simply wake up on a Demiplane that you can't get access to, grab their spellbook + focus, and Banish/Teleport themselves right back to the Fighter.

Contingency lasts until it is triggered. If the contingency is applicable to a fight with a Fighter, then it's almost certainly equally applicable to the 5-7 other combats the Wizard engages in on a typical adventuring day.

In other words: The Wizard is almost certainly guaranteed not to have that contingency up. And essentially can only ever have it up for the first (of many) rules assumed combats of the day.

The biggest problem for the Wizard is remembering what demiplanes they have in effect (something on the order of less than 100% of wizards will have the Keen Mind feat) and paying for the contents out of pocket. A slightly bigger problem is paying for all the backup spellbooks to ensure the Wizard doesn't lose their entire life's work anytime they lose their life. Not to mention the time problem, all of this planning takes time. The Wizard was only a level 20 Wizard so far back in the past which sets a maximum hypothetical number of these nested dolls based purely on the time required to create them. As we're positing an average level 20 Wizard, this whole nested doll idea is also limited to the tiny subset of Wizards who picked up those specific spells and who have the requisite materials to engage in them.

We're talking less than a percent of a percent of a percent of Wizards here. Maybe just 1 in all of existence.

Shaofoo

2016-05-19, 04:52 PM

The starting gear for a level 20 is dramatically better than the starting gear for a level 10 in all types of campaigns (low, moderate, high magic).

Not having gear at all literally stacks the deck by about 19,000 gold and half a dozen absurdly powerful magic items in favor of the Wizard.

Yet no one is considering the starting gear for a fighter. I haven't been paying attention but did any of the builds ever use wealth for anything besides buying armor and ammo?

While it is assumed that you will gain wealth and items as you level up (and it is how it is played almost all the time) there is nothing in the game that guarantees that fact, the only thing you are guaranteed is the starting gear. You could theoretically go from level 1 to 20 with only your starting sword and armor.

RulesJD

2016-05-19, 04:52 PM

*snip*

Why wouldn't the Fighter take advantage of the 8 hours to bury the Hut under rubble? Or simply dig a hole under it? It only extends to the ground as a dome, that means anything could go under.

Contingency lasts until it is triggered. If the contingency is applicable to a fight with a Fighter, then it's almost certainly equally applicable to the 5-7 other combats the Wizard engages in on a typical adventuring day.

In other words: The Wizard is almost certainly guaranteed not to have that contingency up. And essentially can only ever have it up for the first (of many) rules assumed combats of the day.

The biggest problem for the Wizard is remembering what demiplanes they have in effect (something on the order of less than 100% of wizards will have the Keen Mind feat) and paying for the contents out of pocket. A slightly bigger problem is paying for all the backup spellbooks to ensure the Wizard doesn't lose their entire life's work anytime they lose their life. Not to mention the time problem, all of this planning takes time. The Wizard was only a level 20 Wizard so far back in the past which sets a maximum hypothetical number of these nested dolls based purely on the time required to create them. As we're positing an average level 20 Wizard, this whole nested doll idea is also limited to the tiny subset of Wizards who picked up those specific spells and who have the requisite materials to engage in them.

We're talking less than a percent of a percent of a percent of Wizards here. Maybe just 1 in all of existence.

Wait, wtf???

Now the Wizard, already being at a significant level disadvantage, has to go through OTHER fights before then?

Stop, just stop posting your scenarios because they are terribly wrong. Nowhere, anywhere, did it say anything about prior fights. Otherwise I just make up that the level 20 Fighter ALSO had to go through those same fights, so they have no Action Surge left and are at half health. Congrats, you Fighter REALLY loses now because the EK can't teleport out of the WoF, your BM has no superiority die for Precision, etc.

OR

We stop making illogical assumptions. Yes, the Wizard gets their Contingency because this is a whiteroom analysis.

Now to your actual points:

1. I literally couldn't imagine a level 20 Wizard (who would have I think at minimum 44 spells known just due to leveling alone) that doesn't pick up Wish + Demiplane. Heck, technically the only spell needed to pull it all off is Wish. Wish -> Demiplane. Walk in and long rest. Wish -> Clone, etc. That's not a valid argument.

2. Please, I beg of you, read the prior posts. I used Tiny Hut/MMM to show how the Fighter wouldn't be able to ambush the Wizard (and thus start what was supposed to be a whiteroom analysis) immediately after casting Contingency at some time in the 10 days prior to the fight. Please, read my post. That's literally what I wrote, NOT that the Wizard would cast Tiny Hut during the combat.

3. It would take 12 seconds per day to create a Demiplane with a Clone in it. Every day, minus the ones where the Wizard has other uses for their 9th level spell slot.

4. Please, I beg of you, read the prior posts. A level 10 Wizard doesn't care about gold anymore, a level 20 Wizard would probably have forgotten what gold is even used for anymore. Absolutely Spellbooks are the toughest part of the whole infinite-1 Demiplane thing, but you really only need a few.

5. If my DM would rule that I can't recall which Demiplane had what (the spell says I can but apparently we're ignoring that) then yes, my last ASI would absolutely be for Keen Mind, especially because then I can just use Fabricate on some wood and ink to create new spellbooks for free, instantly.