Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10

[RulesJD]

They should care about gold because otherwise they won't get their expensive material components, which is part of what I was arguing about. And if you try to somehow mention the Fabricate infinite pottery for money then he does care about gold because he is trying to earn it (never mind the fact that in any actual scenario the market will probably be over saturated quickly with pots and in a whiteroom scenario there is no market to sell to in the first place).

Sure Wish can circumvent that (once a long rest and depending Wish will probably be tied up to making infinite clone bases) somewhat but Wish is not in the level 10 repertoire.

PLEASE, I BEG OF YOU, READ THE PRIOR POSTS.

The entire Wish debate came up when comparing a level 10 Fighter vs. a Level 20 Wizard, and the responses showing that the Fighter can't win outside of a level 20 Wizard that wants to die, because the Wizard has access to tricks like Demiplane + Clone.

No one, literally no one but you, thought that we were arguing that a level 10 Wizard could use Wish + Demiplane + Clone trick.

[Shaofoo]

No one, literally no one but you, thought that we were arguing that a level 10 Wizard could use Wish + Demiplane + Clone trick.

I didn't argue that at all, I even said that a level 10 Wizard doesn't have access to Wish, I am not sure where you got that.

[MaxWilson]

I'm aware of that fact. I'm also aware that to get to level 20, you had to go through level 17 (when you first get access to it).

I saw that I had misread you and had to edit my post to address your actual point, which was about the containment vessel, not the maturation time. Same effect in either case though: Wish just replicates the effect of Clone, but you still need somewhere for it to do its maturing and waiting.


There's nothing stopping the Wizard from sitting in their Demiplane while the first Clone matures. Meanwhile, in the intervening 119 days, the Wizard does Demiplane + Clone as well.

So after 120 days, the Wizard has 120 Clones, each on a separate Demiplane. Each day, a new one matures.

The level 20 Wizard isn't using this has an in-combat spell, stop trying to fight it.

And then when the wizard dies, all 120 clones wake up (all in their individual 2000 gp vessels)? (240,000 gp cost total.) That could get entertaining, in an old-school kind of way. ISTR that clones automatically hate each other--maybe only one is a PC.

A more strictly-RAW DM ruling would just be that only the latest Clone casting works, and you now have a lot of lifeless copies of yourself lying around in glass jars. Hello, The Prestige! But what is indisputable under RAW is that once the original creature is dead, you need a new batch of Clones keyed to the clone as the "original creature", which means your wizard is out of commission for 4 months.

Also, when you say "stop trying to fight it," I think you're confused about whom you're addressing. I don't have a dog in this fight, I just pop in to make rules corrections occasionally. You saw me only a few posts ago pop in on your side of the argument about Cloudkill movement.

[Gwendol]

I'm still amused by the lack of convincing arguments that a wizard 10 will easily best a fighter 20.

[mgshamster]

I'm still amused by the lack of convincing arguments that a wizard 10 will easily best a fighter 20.

We're at the point where a level 13 could, given ample preparation time and gold.

[MaxWilson]

I'm still amused by the lack of convincing arguments that a wizard 10 will easily best a fighter 20.

My best suggestion is to abuse Magma Mephits and 4x Heat Metal. Not a sure thing, but in sufficiently-bad terrain it might work, especially if you can keep recasting Conjure Minor Elementals from the back of your Phantom Steed.

That doesn't count as "easily best," but it might be barely possible to best certain fighters that way under certain conditions.

Use your spell slots below 4th level for stuff like Blink/Longstrider/Mirror Image/Mage Armor to increase your odds of surviving long enough for this strategy to pay off. Also, embrace the joys of the Hide action, because Dodge sure isn't going to help.

[smcmike]

My best suggestion is to abuse Magma Mephits and 4x Heat Metal. Not a sure thing, but in sufficiently-bad terrain it might work, especially if you can keep recasting Conjure Minor Elementals from the back of your Phantom Steed.

That doesn't count as "easily best," but it might be barely possible to best certain fighters that way under certain conditions.

Use your spell slots below 4th level for stuff like Blink/Longstrider/Mirror Image/Mage Armor to increase your odds of surviving long enough for this strategy to pay off. Also, embrace the joys of the Hide action, because Dodge sure isn't going to help.

Seems like a good plan, though it runs into the same rules questions surrounding the Druid build - can you choose the elementals?

[smcmike]

I saw that I had misread you and had to edit my post to address your actual point, which was about the containment vessel, not the maturation time. Same effect in either case though: Wish just replicates the effect of Clone, but you still need somewhere for it to do its maturing and waiting.

And then when the wizard dies, all 120 clones wake up (all in their individual 2000 gp vessels)? (240,000 gp cost total.) That could get entertaining, in an old-school kind of way. ISTR that clones automatically hate each other--maybe only one is a PC.

A more strictly-RAW DM ruling would just be that only the latest Clone casting works, and you now have a lot of lifeless copies of yourself lying around in glass jars. Hello, The Prestige! But what is indisputable under RAW is that once the original creature is dead, you need a new batch of Clones keyed to the clone as the "original creature", which means your wizard is out of commission for 4 months.

Yes, this. I'm pretty firmly convinced a single clone is the way to go.

[RulesJD]

I'm still amused by the lack of convincing arguments that a wizard 10 will easily best a fighter 20.

As mentioned at least a bajillion times:

Against BM or Champ, WoF + small opening at bottom + prone Wizard = dead Fighter.

Harder against EK.

[smcmike]

As mentioned at least a bajillion times:

Against BM or Champ, WoF + small opening at bottom + prone Wizard = dead Fighter.

Harder against EK.

Wait, what? I don't remember this being a consensus view at any point. With fireball or what?

[krugaan]

Wait, what? I don't remember this being a consensus view at any point. With fireball or what?

It isn't, afaik. It has been stated about "a bajillion times" though.


My best suggestion is to abuse Magma Mephits and 4x Heat Metal. Not a sure thing, but in sufficiently-bad terrain it might work, especially if you can keep recasting Conjure Minor Elementals from the back of your Phantom Steed.

That doesn't count as "easily best," but it might be barely possible to best certain fighters that way under certain conditions.

Use your spell slots below 4th level for stuff like Blink/Longstrider/Mirror Image/Mage Armor to increase your odds of surviving long enough for this strategy to pay off. Also, embrace the joys of the Hide action, because Dodge sure isn't going to help.


Whats the deal with magma mephits?

[comk59]

If the issue is that killing the Wizard gets him in another body, then isn't the solution easy? Use action surge to shove him prone and use a garrote to strangle him into unconsciousness. Then, while he's unconscious, use a sharp knife to remove his tounge, eyes, fingers, and big toes. Maybe use a healing pot to stop the bleeding.

After that, just do whatever with him.

[georgie_leech]

If the issue is that killing the Wizard gets him in another body, then isn't the solution easy? Use action surge to shove him prone and use a garrote to strangle him into unconsciousness. Then, while he's unconscious, use a sharp knife to remove his tounge, eyes, fingers, and big toes. Maybe use a healing pot to stop the bleeding.

After that, just do whatever with him.

A fan of a certain Thorn of Camorr are we? :smallamused:

[krugaan]

If the issue is that killing the Wizard gets him in another body, then isn't the solution easy? Use action surge to shove him prone and use a garrote to strangle him into unconsciousness. Then, while he's unconscious, use a sharp knife to remove his tounge, eyes, fingers, and big toes. Maybe use a healing pot to stop the bleeding.

After that, just do whatever with him.

"What IS THAT ON YOUR SHIELD?"

"Oh, it's the latest thing, its a shield of horror. Ok, really, it's just a blind, legless, one-armed wizard strapped to a plank of wood."

"That's horrible."

"Yeah, I know... he can't hit anything with his firebolts. I should have got one that knows acid spray instead."

[comk59]

A fan of a certain Thorn of Camorr are we? :smallamused:

Who is that? I just came up with that in my spare time.

I may have too much spare time...

[smcmike]

If the issue is that killing the Wizard gets him in another body, then isn't the solution easy? Use action surge to shove him prone and use a garrote to strangle him into unconsciousness. Then, while he's unconscious, use a sharp knife to remove his tounge, eyes, fingers, and big toes. Maybe use a healing pot to stop the bleeding.

After that, just do whatever with him.

"And then my ears, I understand, let’s get on with it."

"Wrong! Your ears you keep and I’ll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, “Dear God! What is that thing,” will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever."

[Giant2005]

My best suggestion is to abuse Magma Mephits and 4x Heat Metal. Not a sure thing, but in sufficiently-bad terrain it might work, especially if you can keep recasting Conjure Minor Elementals from the back of your Phantom Steed.

That doesn't count as "easily best," but it might be barely possible to best certain fighters that way under certain conditions.

Use your spell slots below 4th level for stuff like Blink/Longstrider/Mirror Image/Mage Armor to increase your odds of surviving long enough for this strategy to pay off. Also, embrace the joys of the Hide action, because Dodge sure isn't going to help.

Keep in mind that the Fighter can only be under the effects of a spell once. Four Heat Metals is just as effective as a single Heat Metal.

[comk59]

"And then my ears, I understand, let’s get on with it."

"Wrong! Your ears you keep and I’ll tell you why. So that every shriek of every child at seeing your hideousness will be yours to cherish. Every babe that weeps at your approach, every woman who cries out, “Dear God! What is that thing,” will echo in your perfect ears. That is what to the pain means. It means I leave you in anguish, wallowing in freakish misery forever."

Actually, you want to keep his ears so you can interrogate him on where his clones are!

[Naanomi]

It says something about the balance of the game about this conversation, both bad and good... In 3.5 it would be 'wizard wins at level 1, maybe level 3; unless he loses initiative which he likely won't in an optimized pvp build'.

I worry that we can even entertain the idea of beating someone 10 levels ahead of you, but to some degree the whole point of bound accuracy is that lower level threats are still threatening right?

[georgie_leech]

Who is that? I just came up with that in my spare time.

I may have too much spare time...

If you enjoy tales of Roguish wit, sword fights, and magic in a fantastical setting backed with an air of intrigue, I'd highly recommend looking up The Lies of Locke Lamora.

There's an order of mercenary mages that promise terrible retribution on anyone that slays one of their number. The main characters find a way around that particular rule that looks a lot like the method above.

Turns out they're more interested in the spirit of that particular rule than the RAW, alas. :smallamused:

[smcmike]

Keep in mind that the Fighter can only be under the effects of a spell once. Four Heat Metals is just as effective as a single Heat Metal.

That's not quite right. The fighter can be hurt by one heat metal spell per metal item he has on him!

[comk59]

If you enjoy tales of Roguish wit, sword fights, and magic in a fantastical setting backed with an air of intrigue, I'd highly recommend looking up The Lies of Locke Lamora.

There's an order of mercenary mages that promise terrible retribution on anyone that slays one of their number. The main characters find a way around that particular rule that looks a lot like the method above.



It took all my willpower not to click that second spoiler.

I may have also broken my backspace button when I realized what happens when you quote a spoiler.

[JNAProductions]

And, of course, some builds are metal-free! (Okay, I have a rapier. But I can just toss that away.)

[MaxWilson]

Seems like a good plan, though it runs into the same rules questions surrounding the Druid build - can you choose the elementals?

Rather, can you influence the DM's choice? For the druid it doesn't really matter, but the wizard here really needs Magma methods specifically--if the spell is anything like Conjure Elemental it may help to build a bonfire on dry earth before casting, but check with your DM for specifics.

Edit: on reflection, I don't think heat metal x4 will work to kill him anyway. Just because it takes five minutes to fully doff a suit of armor doesn't mean it takes five minutes to doff a red hot gauntlet and three more items of metal too.

[mgshamster]

Rather, can you influence the DM's choice?

Absolutely! I accept bribes in the form of cash or beer.

[Misterwhisper]

I prefer my bribes in the form of people showing up on rime and staying on track... or I would if that would ever happen...

[georgie_leech]

It took all my willpower not to click that second spoiler.

I may have also broken my backspace button when I realized what happens when you quote a spoiler.

Heh, sorry. If it makes you feel any better the spoilers are as broad as possible and it's the details that really make the series anyway.

[djreynolds]

Absolutely! I accept bribes in the form of cash or beer.

HOLY CHRISTMAS TREES, BATMAN

Mr Hamster you've done it, congratulation you are now on the FBI's most wanted list as 25 forum members have swallowed their tongues!!!!!!

This is a great thread, and just kidding you're not actually a criminal or being hunted

How about you set up a mock battle? 10th level warlock vs a 20th level fighter? Ranged vs ranged or melee vs melee?

[MaxWilson]

How about you set up a mock battle? 10th level warlock vs a 20th level fighter? Ranged vs ranged or melee vs melee?

How about 10th level warlock vs. 10th level bladesinger?

[djreynolds]

How about 10th level warlock vs. 10th level bladesinger?


That's a good fight.

Excellent and the winner takes on the fighter.

Either opponent has to close the ground with warlock, and the warlock has to create distance.

The warlock would have to eat away the bladesinger's spell slots, forcing the wizard to cast the shield spell.

[Gwendol]

As mentioned at least a bajillion times:

Against BM or Champ, WoF + small opening at bottom + prone Wizard = dead Fighter.

Harder against EK.

No, you have stated it many times, but have been disproven.

[Gwendol]

That's a good fight.

Excellent and the winner takes on the fighter.

Either opponent has to close the ground with warlock, and the warlock has to create distance.

The warlock would have to eat away the bladesinger's spell slots, forcing the wizard to cast the shield spell.

Try my druid next?

[djreynolds]

You can definitely see how powerful spells like longstrider becomes, or the mobile feat.

Sentinel becomes awesome if you can just land it and turn movement to zero and it cancels out disengage.

The bladesinger is going to have access to misty step and a pretty good AC and the shield spell.

The warlock though has eldritch blast, 2d10 plus charisma and hex.

The druid has to force the wizard to use the shield spell, and if they hit in melee and have sentinel force the wizard to use misty step to get, eating up precious spell slots.

The fighter has to close ground, and take the dodge action a lot, and when possible land some hits that will force the wizard to use the shield spell, or take the hit.

Its all attrition, the fighter just has to keep those action surges close and not waste them. The shield spell is good for one whole round so even 8 attacks will come at -5 to hit because of the shield spell.

[AvatarVecna]

HOLY CHRISTMAS TREES, BATMAN

Mr Hamster you've done it, congratulation you are now on the FBI's most wanted list as 25 forum members have swallowed their tongues!!!!!!

This is a great thread, and just kidding you're not actually a criminal or being hunted

How about you set up a mock battle? 10th level warlock vs a 20th level fighter? Ranged vs ranged or melee vs melee?

For what it's worth, I'm running 100 fights between JNA's Champion and NewDM's Bladesinger. So far, 12 Wizards are dead and another 32 are close, but I need to know what he would be doing to attack the Fighter on his turn. Anybody got any suggestions?

[djreynolds]

The bladesinger must close ground, get in the ranged fighter's face. Have mirror image and fireshield up and running. The fighter has no evasion so stuff like lighting bolt will be a good source of damage, and even shocking grasp, it scales and it eats up the fighter's reaction.

And the bladesinger has 2 attacks, disarm the fighter if possible. His champion has str, con, and wis saves, and though a high dex score, AoEs should help damage. Any spell that can target int and charisma are a must to have prepared. Conjuring elementals/ minor elementals works. A bladesinger can cast this and use this as his concentration spell. Mirror image, fireshield, and bladesong is enough for defense.

Its attrition. You first have to just get the fighter to half hit points, and now he's regenerating. Its a lot of cantrip usage until then and summons.

He only has a longbow and sharpshooter, so put him at disadvantage while using a ranged weapon in melee.

[AvatarVecna]

The bladesinger must close ground, get in the ranged fighter's face. Have mirror image and fireshield up and running. The fighter has no evasion so stuff like lighting bolt will be a good source of damage, and even shocking grasp, it scales and it eats up the fighter's reaction

Mirror Image is/was up, and Fire Shield is up. Closing the distance and getting in the bow-wielders face is a good tactic; disadvantage on attacks is always good.


And the bladesinger has 2 attacks, disarm the fighter if possible.

Hrm...I'm not sure Disarming will go any better than Shoving or Grappling.


His champion has str, con, and wis saves, and though a high dex score, AoEs should help damage. Any spell that can target int and charisma are a must to have prepared. Conjuring elementals/ minor elementals works. A bladesinger can cast this and use this as his concentration spell. Mirror image, fireshield, and bladesong is enough for defense.

This paragraph is full of gold, but unfortunately those kinds of spells are not the kind of spells NewDM chose to prepare. He's currently using his Concentration slot on Stoneskin.


Its attrition. You first have to just get the fighter to half hit points, and now he's regenerating. Its a lot of cantrip usage until then and summons.

This is the trick to beating the Champion: surviving long enough to take them down is necessary, of course, but you need a way to outpace Survivor, or you'll never win (or at least it'll take forever).

[djreynolds]

Dump stoneskin for now, if you can close the distance and force him into melee range he should miss more than hit. I'd rather blur up than stoneskin.

Stoneskin is pricey, you need damage out put. Lots of green flame blade.

A warlock could play shoot out, but the bladesinger has to be in his face. Otherwise as long as he has 10 feet between you, its just sharpshooter all day. I'm not sure of your AC, but you only have so many slots to use the shield spell in.

Its crazy, but here you must treat the archer as the caster and your bladesinger has to think like a dex based melee fighter. You have two attacks, if you use green-flame blade for one, I would see if you can trip with acrobatics vs acrobatics.

Its not an easy fight. My melee champion is nasty and he's melee. The tough thing is the proficiency bonus is +6 to +4, its like having a +2 longbow at first level and he has archery style. He may even hit with disadvantage.

[AvatarVecna]

Dump stoneskin for now, if you can close the distance and force him into melee range he should miss more than hit. I'd rather blur up than stoneskin.

Stoneskin is pricey, you need damage out put. Lots of green flame blade.

A warlock could play shoot out, but the bladesinger has to be in his face. Otherwise as long as he has 10 feet between you, its just sharpshooter all day. I'm not sure of your AC, but you only have so many slots to use the shield spell in.

Its crazy, but here you must treat the archer as the caster and your bladesinger has to think like a dex based melee fighter. You have two attacks, if you use green-flame blade for one, I would see if you can trip with acrobatics vs acrobatics.

Its not an easy fight. My melee champion is nasty and he's melee. The tough thing is the proficiency bonus is +6 to +4, its like having a +2 longbow at first level and he has archery style. He may even hit with disadvantage.

For a bit of clarity, here's the Bladesinger build:

Wizard(Bladesinger)
High Elf

Strength 10 (+0) [10]
Dexterity 16 (+3) [14, +2 race]
Constitution 14 (+2) [14]
Intelligence 16 (+3) [15, +1 race]
Wisdom 9 (-1) [9]
Charisma 9 (-1) [9]

Feats: War Caster, Lucky

AC 13(Mage Armor)+3(dex)+3(int from blade song)=19
AC with Shield spell 24
HP 62

Spells (Prepared 13):
Cantrips (5 known): Fire Bolt, Booming Blade,
1st(4 slots, known 10): Mage Armor, False Life,
2nd(3 slots, known 4): Mirror Image,
3rd(3 slots, known 4): Blink, Vampiric Touch, Haste,
4th(3 slots, known 4): Fire Shield, Polymorph, Stone Skin, Greater Invisibility,
5th(2 slots, known 4) Animate Objects, Wall of Force,
Active spells: either Greater Invisibility, Blink, Fire Shield, Animate Objects (tiny) or Polymorph (T-Rex)

What can this build do to attack?

[djreynolds]

Booming blade in melee.

Everyone is like yeah bladesinger gets two attacks, but until you can add your intelligence to your damage, you're just using a cantrip and the other attack goes away.

And he took war caster, which is limited because this champion has mobile, so no AoO and the wizard only has a sword. I would've taken resilient con.

You have to land booming blade in melee and hope the fighter is dumb enough to move and suffer more damage. But the fighter is at +13 to hit an AC of 19, and maybe AC24. Even at disadvantage in melee, if stays put after getting hit by booming blade, he is going to hit on 1 of those 4 arrows and force the wizard to cast his shield spell, which lasts one round.

You can cast wall of force, but you don't want separation from this archer.

How is the T-Rex going?

[AvatarVecna]

Booming blade in melee.

Everyone is like yeah bladesinger gets two attacks, but until you can add your intelligence to your damage, you're just using a cantrip and the other attack goes away.

And he took war caster, which is limited because this champion has mobile, so no AoO and the wizard only has a sword. I would've taken resilient con.

You have to land booming blade in melee and hope the fighter is dumb enough to move and suffer more damage. But the fighter is at +13 to hit an AC of 19, and maybe AC24. Even at disadvantage in melee, if stays put after getting hit by booming blade, he is going to hit on 1 of those 4 arrows and force the wizard to cast his shield spell, which lasts one round.

You can cast wall of force, but you don't want separation from this archer.

How is the T-Rex going?

The T-Rex would've gone better, since it can actually deal respectable damage, but as mentioned, they opted for Stoneskin.

[djreynolds]

As long as you take the fight to the fighter, you'll have a chance.

Booming blade to keep him put. Never let him get more than 5feet from you. You have 64hps, he could kill you in rounds. You do have that 10th level ability to sacrifice spell slots for damage, its 5 xs the spell level.

You must be the bully in this contest, keep mirror image, fireshield, and you booming blade every attack. You other spell slots are for the shield spell or song of defense.

Anything more than 10 ft, you are losing hp or spell slots to mitigate that damage. Stoneskin is okay to have up, its halves damage. But in the end I'm not sure you can keep up with the damage.

Also in all fairness to you, he needs to have a set amount of arrows that he has to recollect or forced into hand-to-hand combat with say a rapier and honestly give yourself both booming blade and green flame blade and shocking grasp for cantrips, only fair.

And also in fairness, I would recommend making it a level 11 wizard or warlock, if because of the cantrips increase at 11th level.

Still conjure minor elementals, and banishment is 4th level spell and is charisma based and blight has 8D8, its a con save but 4d8 is pretty good, as is ice storm.

5th level immolation is dex. Planar binding, arcane hand.

[EvanescentHero]

Stoneskin is okay to have up, its halves damage. But in the end I'm not sure you can keep up with the damage.

Stoneskin is worthless if the fighter has a magic bow, for whatever that may be worth. I don't think any of the current builds do, but it's not unreasonable to expect that a level twenty character would have a magical version of their main weapon. Of course, that's probably unfair or something.

[wunderkid]

This paragraph is full of gold, but unfortunately those kinds of spells are not the kind of spells NewDM chose to prepare. He's currently using his Concentration slot on Stoneskin.

Yeah I can agree with that build being set in stone, but in the interests of this exercise the builds do have to change and evolve to find the optimum setup. If new dms build isn't quite up to scratch then a new one should be made that combines the necessary features and spells prepared.

Course this does mess with the tests being run so I'm not suggesting rerunning for every change just that by the end of this a final fully finished build should be found.

[RulesJD]

No, you have stated it many times, but have been disproven.

Yes, we have. You just don't like how WoF in a half-dome 1/2 inch above the ground works. Not my fault the spell is written how it is. 2/3 of Fighter builds can't get out (since it's a whiteroom and thus you can't dig into the dirt, which even if you could Wizard could re-fill it with Mold Earth a hell of a lot quicker than you can dig) so they sit there eating auto-hit Magic Missiles/Fireballs until death. Any issues with the 1/2 inch is solved by going prone and the fact that neither Fireball nor MM require a roll to hit and the Fireball automatically explodes inside the WoF, so you get no benefit from cover.

The ONLY defense you could bring up was the Fighter winning Initiative and powering through the Bladesinger's AC. Literally, that's all you had. Since later discussions involved starting at 600ft away, I just have my Wizard start 60ft away. Even if you win Initiative, you aren't going to be able to get close enough without Action Surging, so Bladesinger easily survives Round 1, and you're trapped in the aforementioned WoF. Personally I'd go with an Evocation Wizard anyways just to make the MM take less time.

[mgshamster]

Yes, we have. You just don't like how WoF in a half-dome 1/2 inch above the ground works. Not my fault the spell is written how it is. 2/3 of Fighter builds can't get out (since it's a whiteroom and thus you can't dig into the dirt, which even if you could Wizard could re-fill it with Mold Earth a hell of a lot quicker than you can dig) so they sit there eating auto-hit Magic Missiles/Fireballs until death. Any issues with the 1/2 inch is solved by going prone and the fact that neither Fireball nor MM require a roll to hit and the Fireball automatically explodes inside the WoF, so you get no benefit from cover.

The ONLY defense you could bring up was the Fighter winning Initiative and powering through the Bladesinger's AC. Literally, that's all you had. Since later discussions involved starting at 600ft away, I just have my Wizard start 60ft away. Even if you win Initiative, you aren't going to be able to get close enough without Action Surging, so Bladesinger easily survives Round 1, and you're trapped in the aforementioned WoF. Personally I'd go with an Evocation Wizard anyways just to make the MM take less time.

Magic missile no longer has a clause about moving around corners to find the target. You need a clear line to the target. A 1/2" gap won't grant you that, and the fighter has total cover, so that spell won't work. They can't be targeted.

Do you think total cover would still grant the +5 dexterity save and AC to AoE spells that 3/4 cover grants?

[MaxWilson]

You can definitely see how powerful spells like longstrider becomes, or the mobile feat.

Sentinel becomes awesome if you can just land it and turn movement to zero and it cancels out disengage.

Bear in mind that Sentinel does not cancel out "Ready: Move 30' away", which works just as well as Disengage as long as the enemy hasn't spent their action already on Disengage by the time you hit them with Sentinel. Think of this as someone who knows you're going to try to trip them up and, instead of avoiding it, is simply ready to get back on their feet if necessary.

So Sentinel will work against an average foe, but not against a smart one who already knows your capabilities.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah I can agree with that build being set in stone, but in the interests of this exercise the builds do have to change and evolve to find the optimum setup. If new dms build isn't quite up to scratch then a new one should be made that combines the necessary features and spells prepared.

Course this does mess with the tests being run so I'm not suggesting rerunning for every change just that by the end of this a final fully finished build should be found.

Indeed...but the reason I'm running that build through 100 Fights at all, despite not personally believing it stands even half a chance, is because when the build was countered with math numerous times, NewDM insisted people had done the math wrong. So I'm running his build through 100 Fights; asking, at every point, what he wants the build to be, what tactics he wants to use, what to do in this situation, or that situation. If we want to move on to other builds, I'm willing to run theoretical numbers for different builds, as I did for the Moon Druid, but running 100 actual Fights is very time-consuming and monotonous, especially with NewDM responding so rarely (maybe once a day if I'm lucky).

Nonetheless, with his current list of prepared spells, which I pestered him about until he provided a definitive list, is now set in stone for those 100 fights...and its offensive power is mostly limited to cantrips and Concentration spells.

I think what I'm going to do (unless instructed otherwise by NewDM) is have the Wizards who are facing Fighters with no remaining Action Surges drop Stoneskin for Animate Objects, trusting their AC, HP, and Concentration save w/ advantage to hold out against whatever the Fighter does to hurt them; Wizards facing Fighters who still have Action Surges will re-cast Mirror Image (if necessary) or use Booming Blade (if re-casting MI is unnecessary).

[RulesJD]

Magic missile no longer has a clause about moving around corners to find the target. You need a clear line to the target. A 1/2" gap won't grant you that, and the fighter has total cover, so that spell won't work. They can't be targeted.

Do you think total cover would still grant the +5 dexterity save and AC to AoE spells that 3/4 cover grants?

It doesn't need it. I can see the target (WoF is see through) and there is a line to the target's feet. If he stands on his helmet, I throw a Fireball first and incinerate the helmet, then proceed to use MM.

You only get the benefits of cover to a Dex save if the source of the cover is between you at the effect. The Fireball is originating at a point inside the sphere, so you don't get the benefit of the 3/4 cover (Fireball goes around corners anyways so it doesn't really matter).

[georgie_leech]

It doesn't need it. I can see the target (WoF is see through) and there is a line to the target's feet. If he stands on his helmet, I throw a Fireball first and incinerate the helmet, then proceed to use MM.

You only get the benefits of cover to a Dex save if the source of the cover is between you at the effect. The Fireball is originating at a point inside the sphere, so you don't get the benefit of the 3/4 cover (Fireball goes around corners anyways so it doesn't really matter).

In order: Yes you do, and there isn't LoE to the target's feet, angles don't work that way. No, Fireball doesn't instantly vaporize metal equipment like that. No, the Fireball isn't originating inside the WoF, angles won't let you, because this is one of those times where the tiny size of the fireball 'bead' is still too large. This is exactly the kind of situation that grants the cover bonus, the fact that it goes around corners is what let's the Fighter be affected by Fireball at all, not that it ignores cover.

[Cazero]

Yes, we have. You just don't like how WoF in a half-dome 1/2 inch above the ground works. Not my fault the spell is written how it is. 2/3 of Fighter builds can't get out (since it's a whiteroom and thus you can't dig into the dirt, which even if you could Wizard could re-fill it with Mold Earth a hell of a lot quicker than you can dig) so they sit there eating auto-hit Magic Missiles/Fireballs until death. Any issues with the 1/2 inch is solved by going prone and the fact that neither Fireball nor MM require a roll to hit and the Fireball automatically explodes inside the WoF, so you get no benefit from cover.

The ONLY defense you could bring up was the Fighter winning Initiative and powering through the Bladesinger's AC. Literally, that's all you had. Since later discussions involved starting at 600ft away, I just have my Wizard start 60ft away. Even if you win Initiative, you aren't going to be able to get close enough without Action Surging, so Bladesinger easily survives Round 1, and you're trapped in the aforementioned WoF. Personally I'd go with an Evocation Wizard anyways just to make the MM take less time.
The only defense of your tactic is RAC (Rules As Convenient). So I'm going to go with "lines of effect go both ways, the fighter can shoot back", you will retort "no he can't, because magic", and I will reply "yes he can, because skill".


It doesn't need it. I can see the target (WoF is see through) and there is a line to the target's feet. If he stands on his helmet, I throw a Fireball first and incinerate the helmet, then proceed to use MM.
As far as we know, magic missiles could be one foot wide.
And the helmet isn't flammable nor unattended, so your fireball doesn't incinerate anything.


edited to add :

In order: Yes you do, and there isn't LoE to the target's feet, angles don't work that way. No, Fireball doesn't instantly vaporize metal equipment like that. No, the Fireball isn't originating inside the WoF, angles won't let you, because this is one of those times where the tiny size of the fireball 'bead' is still too large. This is exactly the kind of situation that grants the cover bonus, the fact that it goes around corners is what let's the Fighter be affected by Fireball at all, not that it ignores cover.
I would go furhter and says the fireball can't spread under the dome. It goes around corners (aka space near an obstacle for creatures to move around), not under closed doors.

[smcmike]

It doesn't need it. I can see the target (WoF is see through) and there is a line to the target's feet. If he stands on his helmet, I throw a Fireball first and incinerate the helmet, then proceed to use MM.

You only get the benefits of cover to a Dex save if the source of the cover is between you at the effect. The Fireball is originating at a point inside the sphere, so you don't get the benefit of the 3/4 cover (Fireball goes around corners anyways so it doesn't really matter).

Fireballs don't damage metal helmets. They damage creatures and ignite flammable objects. If you want to incinerate a metal helmet, you are relying upon DM rulings.

Speaking of DM rulings, if I were adjudicating the placement of a fireball through a three-quarter inch gap, I don't think I would want this to be an auto success, particularly considering that this is a gap created by an invisible obstruction.

If you are relying on the fireball going around the corner, I'd definitely give the bonus to saves.

[Skylivedk]

In order: Yes you do, and there isn't LoE to the target's feet, angles don't work that way. No, Fireball doesn't instantly vaporize metal equipment like that. No, the Fireball isn't originating inside the WoF, angles won't let you, because this is one of those times where the tiny size of the fireball 'bead' is still too large. This is exactly the kind of situation that grants the cover bonus, the fact that it goes around corners is what let's the Fighter be affected by Fireball at all, not that it ignores cover.

Any ruling on the size of the fireball bead or is it what you find fair/reasonable?

[comk59]

Why are we discussing beads? The fireball spell just says "a bright streak". It was older editions that had the bead thing.

[Cazero]

Any ruling on the size of the fireball bead or is it what you find fair/reasonable?

Unecessary. Try to perfectly align a one inch wide round peg with a one inch wide round hole thirty feet away and you will get a glimpse of how difficult it is to do it. No way you get to do that without an attack roll.

[georgie_leech]

Any ruling on the size of the fireball bead or is it what you find fair/reasonable?

On reflection, this edition lacks the pea-sized descriptor. What say the playground? How large is the streak of flame?

[Gwendol]

Yes, we have. You just don't like how WoF in a half-dome 1/2 inch above the ground works. Not my fault the spell is written how it is. 2/3 of Fighter builds can't get out (since it's a whiteroom and thus you can't dig into the dirt, which even if you could Wizard could re-fill it with Mold Earth a hell of a lot quicker than you can dig) so they sit there eating auto-hit Magic Missiles/Fireballs until death. Any issues with the 1/2 inch is solved by going prone and the fact that neither Fireball nor MM require a roll to hit and the Fireball automatically explodes inside the WoF, so you get no benefit from cover.

The ONLY defense you could bring up was the Fighter winning Initiative and powering through the Bladesinger's AC. Literally, that's all you had. Since later discussions involved starting at 600ft away, I just have my Wizard start 60ft away. Even if you win Initiative, you aren't going to be able to get close enough without Action Surging, so Bladesinger easily survives Round 1, and you're trapped in the aforementioned WoF. Personally I'd go with an Evocation Wizard anyways just to make the MM take less time.

My opinion is the rules don't mesh with how you describe WoF in a half-dome 1/2 inch above the ground works. Please don't try to guess what I like and don't.

PHB p 204:
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover. The dome provides the fighter with total cover in the examples you have given, so MM does not work (alternatively, the fighter can stand on an object >1/2" and get total cover that way).

The fireball typically explodes on the outside of the wall, since:
If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction. and you need a clear path to the target. Going prone might avoid this, but it will be highly situational.

Finally, any situation where the wizard can launch spells inside the dome, the fighter can attack from the inside. It goes both ways or not at all.

[RulesJD]

My opinion is the rules don't mesh with how you describe WoF in a half-dome 1/2 inch above the ground works. Please don't try to guess what I like and don't.

PHB p 204: The dome provides the fighter with total cover in the examples you have given, so MM does not work (alternatively, the fighter can stand on an object >1/2" and get total cover that way).

The fireball typically explodes on the outside of the wall, since: and you need a clear path to the target. Going prone might avoid this, but it will be highly situational.

Finally, any situation where the wizard can launch spells inside the dome, the fighter can attack from the inside. It goes both ways or not at all.

Gotta love how literally the PHB contradicts everything you say.

AND

you all have to rely on literally nothing in the text to support your arguments.

There is a clear path to the target. Notice how Forcecage has bars 1/2 inch apart and you can still attack into it? Stop trying to argue for RAW rulings when you're wrong.

Yes the Fighter can attack out, but the Fighter can't avoid Disadvantage. Also, the Fighter can't hide inside the WoF, the Wizard most certainly can (Rope Trick alone destroys any chance the Fighter has of making more than 1 shot per round).

Want to know the truth? MM doesn't have a size, Fireball (prior to explosion radius) doesn't have a size. You can take your DM opinion and walk because it has no function here. That isn't a "ruling", that's you being upset that a level 10 Wizard has the power to roflstomp 2/3 of level 20 Fighters.

Alternatively, I just make the gap 2 inches wide, it makes literally no difference. Still 3/4 cover shooting out, at a prone target, so disadvantage -5 on all Fighter bow shots (unless Sharpshooter), so still disadvantage. Rope Trick and you get 1 shot per round, max. On turns I'm casting Fireball you get zero shots because I just need to see a point on the ground 1/4 inch into the WoF as I lean out of my Rope Trick. So long as the LoE and LoS are clear (they are from certain higher angles) the point of explosion for the Fireball will still be inside the dome while I will be too high (elevated from the Rope Trick to hit back. MM can't quite pull this off because you do need LoE directly to the target, but I'll take my 1 disadvantaged bow shot against MM auto-hitting before climbing back up the 5ft of rope into the Rope Trick.

If you get a helmet, my Wizard gets a backpack to go prone behind, congrats, I now have full cover even with the 2 inch gap until my turn when I roll out to cast spells, you get your 1 Readied Action attack that you're making at disadvantage.

Or better yet, since I can make it a much smaller WoF, I just making a running jump (10ft of movement) ontop of the WoF you're pinned under with the 2 inch gap.

On your turn I have full cover. On my turn, I slide back off the WoF (10ft of movement), you get your ONE readied attack, I get my full spell, then standing jump back on top. After all, if you're going to throw out all sorts of NON SUPPORTED RULINGS like requiring an Attack Roll for a spell that doesn't have one, nor a difficulty mentioned anywhere in the PHB, I get to do whatever I want to as well.

OH WAIT, even better. When you take your helmet off and stand on it, it is no longer a piece of equipment being worn or carried. Which means a nice Shatter at ground level inside the dome will destroy the helmet. Manacles (metal objects) have 15hp, so good luck with that.

Sucks for you that you think MM or Fireball require anything other than Line of Sight + Line of Effect, both of which are provided by a 1/2 inch gap. If you want to argue for the helmet thing, I can literally just attack the helmet until it is broken, which is 1-2 rounds max

[Xetheral]

Gotta love how literally the PHB contradicts everything you say.

AND

you all have to rely on literally nothing in the text to support your arguments.

There is a clear path to the target. Notice how Forcecage has bars 1/2 inch apart and you can still attack into it? Stop trying to argue for RAW rulings when you're wrong.

Yes the Fighter can attack out, but the Fighter can't avoid Disadvantage. Also, the Fighter can't hide inside the WoF, the Wizard most certainly can (Rope Trick alone destroys any chance the Fighter has of making more than 1 shot per round).

Want to know the truth? MM doesn't have a size, Fireball (prior to explosion radius) doesn't have a size. You can take your DM opinion and walk because it has no function here. That isn't a "ruling", that's you being upset that a level 10 Wizard has the power to roflstomp 2/3 of level 20 Fighters.

Alternatively, I just make the gap 2 inches wide, it makes literally no difference. Still 3/4 cover shooting out, at a prone target, so disadvantage -5 on all Fighter bow shots (unless Sharpshooter), so still disadvantage. Rope Trick and you get 1 shot per round, max. On turns I'm casting Fireball you get zero shots because I just need to see a point on the ground 1/4 inch into the WoF as I lean out of my Rope Trick. So long as the LoE and LoS are clear (they are from certain higher angles) the point of explosion for the Fireball will still be inside the dome while I will be too high (elevated from the Rope Trick to hit back. MM can't quite pull this off because you do need LoE directly to the target, but I'll take my 1 disadvantaged bow shot against MM auto-hitting before climbing back up the 5ft of rope into the Rope Trick.

If you get a helmet, my Wizard gets a backpack to go prone behind, congrats, I now have full cover even with the 2 inch gap until my turn when I roll out to cast spells, you get your 1 Readied Action attack that you're making at disadvantage.

Or better yet, since I can make it a much smaller WoF, I just making a running jump (10ft of movement) ontop of the WoF you're pinned under with the 2 inch gap.

On your turn I have full cover. On my turn, I slide back off the WoF (10ft of movement), you get your ONE readied attack, I get my full spell, then standing jump back on top. After all, if you're going to throw out all sorts of NON SUPPORTED RULINGS like requiring an Attack Roll for a spell that doesn't have one, nor a difficulty mentioned anywhere in the PHB, I get to do whatever I want to as well.

OH WAIT, even better. When you take your helmet off and stand on it, it is no longer a piece of equipment being worn or carried. Which means a nice Shatter at ground level inside the dome will destroy the helmet. Manacles (metal objects) have 15hp, so good luck with that.

Sucks for you that you think MM or Fireball require anything other than Line of Sight + Line of Effect, both of which are provided by a 1/2 inch gap. If you want to argue for the helmet thing, I can literally just attack the helmet until it is broken, which is 1-2 rounds max

Trying to target a fireball through a small gap in an invisible obstruction isn't covered by the rules. The text doesn't say you can't, but it also doesn't say you can. This is exactly the sort of situation where a DM ruling is required: a specific interaction between two mechanics (fireball and shooting past cover) about which the rules are silent.

[Gwendol]

The amount of strawman is... Impressive.

[dev6500]

The answer is simple muwahahaha.

Wall of force 1/2 inch above ground. Both sides have total cover.

Wizard picks up mold earth as one of their cantrips and create or destroy water through magic initiate feat.
Also WoF can be be a dome up to 10 ft in radius. So technically you could make it smaller and have a dome of radius 5 to 6 ft for most humanoid enemies you are enclosing in it.
After WoF is put up, wizard now has 20 minutes(2 castings of WoF) to use mold earth to create a circular wall of earth around the fighter and then use create or destroy water to fill the area with water and drown the fighter.

You can also use creation to make a 5 ft cube of water if you want to hurry the process up. But then you only have 10 minutes of WoF. If you want to use even less water, then I suggest using shape water to force the water to flow into the dome.

I am currently AFB but I think there are drowning rules in the phb around pg 180 or so. Hmm it seems we need to keep them under water for 1 + con mod minutes.

[MaxWilson]

The answer is simple muwahahaha.

Wall of force 1/2 inch above ground. Both sides have total cover.

Wizard picks up mold earth as one of their cantrips and create or destroy water through magic initiate feat.
Also WoF can be be a dome up to 10 ft in radius. So technically you could make it smaller and have a dome of radius 5 to 6 ft for most humanoid enemies you are enclosing in it.
After WoF is put up, wizard now has 20 minutes(2 castings of WoF) to use mold earth to create a circular wall of earth around the fighter and then use create or destroy water to fill the area with water and drown the fighter.

You can also use creation to make a 5 ft cube of water if you want to hurry the process up. But then you only have 10 minutes of WoF. If you want to use even less water, then I suggest using shape water to force the water to flow into the dome.

I am currently AFB but I think there are drowning rules in the phb around pg 180 or so. Hmm it seems we need to keep them under water for 1 + con mod minutes.

Creation won't work (casting it drops your wall of force because it is not a one-action cast). You can't cast Create/Destroy Water through a Wall of Force, and wizards don't have access to that spell anyway.

If you try to fill up the dome with mundane physics you need a ruling from your DM on whether air has mass/volume in his universe--using conventional, Earth physics would prevent the water from filling up the force dome for the same reason that an overturned boat retains an air bubble.

[smcmike]

The answer is simple muwahahaha.

Wall of force 1/2 inch above ground. Both sides have total cover.

Wizard picks up mold earth as one of their cantrips and create or destroy water through magic initiate feat.
Also WoF can be be a dome up to 10 ft in radius. So technically you could make it smaller and have a dome of radius 5 to 6 ft for most humanoid enemies you are enclosing in it.
After WoF is put up, wizard now has 20 minutes(2 castings of WoF) to use mold earth to create a circular wall of earth around the fighter and then use create or destroy water to fill the area with water and drown the fighter.

You can also use creation to make a 5 ft cube of water if you want to hurry the process up. But then you only have 10 minutes of WoF. If you want to use even less water, then I suggest using shape water to force the water to flow into the dome.

I am currently AFB but I think there are drowning rules in the phb around pg 180 or so. Hmm it seems we need to keep them under water for 1 + con mod minutes.

This was discussed some above, but there are so many problems with it.

1. Creation does not create water. You might be able to talk your DM into it, but it's not listed as something you can make with the spell, nor is it even an object.

2. Loose earth is not very good at holding water.

3. 10 gallons of water is like 1 cubic foot. It would take a lot of casting to drown anyone.

[smcmike]

On the other hand....

Step 1 hemisphere wall of force just above the ground.

Steps 2-60 - mold earth to moved loose earth under the gap and fill the wall of force, drowning the fighter in dirt.

Step 61 profit.

[Cybren]

Gotta love how literally the PHB contradicts everything you say.

AND

you all have to rely on literally nothing in the text to support your arguments.

There is a clear path to the target. Notice how Forcecage has bars 1/2 inch apart and you can still attack into it? Stop trying to argue for RAW rulings when you're wrong.

Yes the Fighter can attack out, but the Fighter can't avoid Disadvantage. Also, the Fighter can't hide inside the WoF, the Wizard most certainly can (Rope Trick alone destroys any chance the Fighter has of making more than 1 shot per round).

Want to know the truth? MM doesn't have a size, Fireball (prior to explosion radius) doesn't have a size. You can take your DM opinion and walk because it has no function here. That isn't a "ruling", that's you being upset that a level 10 Wizard has the power to roflstomp 2/3 of level 20 Fighters.

Alternatively, I just make the gap 2 inches wide, it makes literally no difference. Still 3/4 cover shooting out, at a prone target, so disadvantage -5 on all Fighter bow shots (unless Sharpshooter), so still disadvantage. Rope Trick and you get 1 shot per round, max. On turns I'm casting Fireball you get zero shots because I just need to see a point on the ground 1/4 inch into the WoF as I lean out of my Rope Trick. So long as the LoE and LoS are clear (they are from certain higher angles) the point of explosion for the Fireball will still be inside the dome while I will be too high (elevated from the Rope Trick to hit back. MM can't quite pull this off because you do need LoE directly to the target, but I'll take my 1 disadvantaged bow shot against MM auto-hitting before climbing back up the 5ft of rope into the Rope Trick.

If you get a helmet, my Wizard gets a backpack to go prone behind, congrats, I now have full cover even with the 2 inch gap until my turn when I roll out to cast spells, you get your 1 Readied Action attack that you're making at disadvantage.

Or better yet, since I can make it a much smaller WoF, I just making a running jump (10ft of movement) ontop of the WoF you're pinned under with the 2 inch gap.

On your turn I have full cover. On my turn, I slide back off the WoF (10ft of movement), you get your ONE readied attack, I get my full spell, then standing jump back on top. After all, if you're going to throw out all sorts of NON SUPPORTED RULINGS like requiring an Attack Roll for a spell that doesn't have one, nor a difficulty mentioned anywhere in the PHB, I get to do whatever I want to as well.

OH WAIT, even better. When you take your helmet off and stand on it, it is no longer a piece of equipment being worn or carried. Which means a nice Shatter at ground level inside the dome will destroy the helmet. Manacles (metal objects) have 15hp, so good luck with that.

Sucks for you that you think MM or Fireball require anything other than Line of Sight + Line of Effect, both of which are provided by a 1/2 inch gap. If you want to argue for the helmet thing, I can literally just attack the helmet until it is broken, which is 1-2 rounds max
You're begging the question in repeatedly insisting this works. Forcecage has multiple gaps, and the reason you can target through it is that it explicitly says you can. You can't then deduce that any half inch wide gap is sufficient for casting spells across. The cover rules make no mention of the size of the projectile, only the size of the target and of the object granting cover, and the rules pretty clearly indicate that if a fireball explodes on your side of the wall of force that will constitute total cover, and if you're willing to stretch things, 3/4ths cover.

[AvatarVecna]

You're begging the question in repeatedly insisting this works. Forcecage has multiple gaps, and the reason you can target through it is that it explicitly says you can. You can't then deduce that any half inch wide gap is sufficient for casting spells across. The cover rules make no mention of the size of the projectile, only the size of the target and of the object granting cover, and the rules pretty clearly indicate that if a fireball explodes on your side of the wall of force that will constitute total cover, and if you're willing to stretch things, 3/4ths cover.

In point of fact, he's talking about a hemispherical Wall Of Force a half-inch off the ground (last I checked), which doesn't have any gaps except the aforementioned half-inch.

[Cybren]

In point of fact, he's talking about a hemispherical Wall Of Force a half-inch off the ground (last I checked), which doesn't have any gaps except the aforementioned half-inch.
And I'm saying that a half inch gap off the ground constitutes total cover for the fighter

[dev6500]

Instead of a half dome, you could make a surface using 10 10 by 10 ft panels that only need to be contiguous ( sharing a side or face). With some creative thinking, you could make a box with a very small opening in the top to fill with water. At that point, its just a matter of filling a 5 ft cube with water or water and dirt and then drown him. All that would require is line of effect and sight on the area above the boxes small opening where you are going to move earth and water and let it drop down into the opening. I would start with dirt and finish with water so that the it uses very few spell slots and the fighter still drowns.

[smcmike]

Instead of a half dome, you could make a surface using 10 10 by 10 ft panels that only need to be contiguous ( sharing a side or face). With some creative thinking, you could make a box with a very small opening in the top to fill with water. At that point, its just a matter of filling a 5 ft cube with water or water and dirt and then drown him. All that would require is line of effect and sight on the area above the boxes small opening where you are going to move earth and water and let it drop down into the opening. I would start with dirt and finish with water so that the it uses very few spell slots and the fighter still drowns.

I thought about this, but decided that the language only allows for a single flat surface, not a box. It's ambiguous though.

[MaxWilson]

Instead of a half dome, you could make a surface using 10 10 by 10 ft panels that only need to be contiguous ( sharing a side or face). With some creative thinking, you could make a box with a very small opening in the top to fill with water. At that point, its just a matter of filling a 5 ft cube with water or water and dirt and then drown him. All that would require is line of effect and sight on the area above the boxes small opening where you are going to move earth and water and let it drop down into the opening. I would start with dirt and finish with water so that the it uses very few spell slots and the fighter still drowns.

We discussed upthread a very similar tactic: using Wall of Force followed by Stone Shape, Shape Water to move water, and then another readied Wall of Force (trigger: as soon as the fighter is submerged in water and/or the stone cage cracks) which drops the first Wall of Force and allows the stone cage to fill with water.

I believe the consensus was that the Champion/Battlemaster dies in this scenario, but that the scenario was finicky enough to be hard to pull off. E.g. requires a source of water, requires large stones nearby, still requires the wizard to win initiative.

[krugaan]

The amount of strawman is... Impressive.

Rumplestilskin could make a legendary fortune with his wheel, eh?

[Gwendol]

And I'm saying that a half inch gap off the ground constitutes total cover for the fighter

So do I based on the fact that the wizard has no line of effect. There is an argument to be made that the wizard may have line of effect if lying flat on the ground, but the fighter can still get total cover by standing on something higher than the gap.

[MaxWilson]

So do I based on the fact that the wizard has no line of effect. There is an argument to be made that the wizard may have line of effect if lying flat on the ground, but the fighter can still get total cover by standing on something higher than the gap.

Or readying an action: "Jump if the wizard casts a spell".

[smcmike]

My fighter wears platform boots.

[RulesJD]

The answer is simple muwahahaha.

Wall of force 1/2 inch above ground. Both sides have total cover.

Wizard picks up mold earth as one of their cantrips and create or destroy water through magic initiate feat.
Also WoF can be be a dome up to 10 ft in radius. So technically you could make it smaller and have a dome of radius 5 to 6 ft for most humanoid enemies you are enclosing in it.
After WoF is put up, wizard now has 20 minutes(2 castings of WoF) to use mold earth to create a circular wall of earth around the fighter and then use create or destroy water to fill the area with water and drown the fighter.

You can also use creation to make a 5 ft cube of water if you want to hurry the process up. But then you only have 10 minutes of WoF. If you want to use even less water, then I suggest using shape water to force the water to flow into the dome.

I am currently AFB but I think there are drowning rules in the phb around pg 180 or so. Hmm it seems we need to keep them under water for 1 + con mod minutes.

I'm with you on that one but I was giving the level 20 Fighter the benefit of the doubt in not having the fight take place on an area of dirt, because then yeah Mold Earth makes it even worse.

I will say that I never thought about the drowning implications of combining both cantrips.

[RulesJD]

Trying to target a fireball through a small gap in an invisible obstruction isn't covered by the rules. The text doesn't say you can't, but it also doesn't say you can. This is exactly the sort of situation where a DM ruling is required: a specific interaction between two mechanics (fireball and shooting past cover) about which the rules are silent.

Sweet jebus that's laughably wrong.

"A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point

For jebus sake, just read the spell.

Laying down there is zero question that I have both Line of Sight and Line of Effect to the 20ft area under the gap in the WoF.

It is a bright streak, not a bead of any sort of size.

More importantly, look at that those words. The explosion is centered on the point. Which means if the point is INSIDE THE WoF LIKE I'VE SAID ABOUT 10,000 TIMES ALREADY, there is no cover between the Fighter and the point of the Fireball, BECAUSE IT IS INSIDE THE WoF.

[smcmike]

Sweet jebus that's laughably wrong.

"A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point

For jebus sake, just read the spell.

Laying down there is zero question that I have both Line of Sight and Line of Effect to the 20ft area under the gap in the WoF.

It is a bright streak, not a bead of any sort of size.

More importantly, look at that those words. The explosion is centered on the point. Which means if the point is INSIDE THE WoF LIKE I'VE SAID ABOUT 10,000 TIMES ALREADY, there is no cover between the Fighter and the point of the Fireball, BECAUSE IT IS INSIDE THE WoF.

Relax, man. Relax.

[Gwendol]

Again, you are fighting a straw man. You can argue that you have LoE lying flat on your belly, but it will still be a DM call at that point. I don't argue the size of the streak as I find it irrelevant.

[krugaan]

Or readying an action: "Jump if the wizard casts a spell".


or just push dirt to fill the cracks. You could easily do that with any sticklike object in 6 seconds or less.

or is this a stone floor we're talking about?

[JNAProductions]

It's whatever floor is most convenient to RulesJD. :P

Really, the arena is a big factor. Different arenas suit different people better.

[Waazraath]

it's a well known fact that presenting your argument in bold, italic, underlined, huge font sized letters, makes you more RIGHT. ESPECIALLY WHEN ALSO USING CAPS

It really isn't that hard. The rules say what you can do, not what they can't. If there's nothing in the rules about the wall of force having half inch gaps which makes a wizard untargetable BECAUSE MAGIC but makes the wizard being able to target the guy inside the wall of force... you can't do it.

Bloody hell, I've seen so much complete and utter nonsense tha past weeks in several threads about 'casters' and 'non casters'. Creation creating magic items, demiplanes targeted under a character to trap him 'because the spell doesn't say you cant', the wall of force 'trick' in this thread. And when something like the dream spell is disucssed, a part of the caster crowd doesn't care about RAW, and the target is suddenly exhausted (even though it isn't by RAW, 'cause logic'), and when the obvious counter is presented (take another rest, because you didn't benefit from a long rest, which can by RAW), that somehow 'isn't logical' either. But when somebody suggest that a 20 str fighter can use his hands in a grapple to close a caster's mouth, that's house ruling an not RAW. Seriously.

It's really easy: trying to make spells do stuff they obviously aren't meant to do "because the rules don't say I can't" isn't 'creative', it's rules lawyering, in the very worst way.

/rant.

[MaxWilson]

I think that's really a rant about RAW and the meaninglessness thereof. Even the RAW says the players should attempt improvised actions ("I stick a sock in his mouth!") and the DM should adjudicate it appropriately--which means the RAW recommend going outside RAW.

DMs exist for a reason.

[Waazraath]

I think you are right, MaxWilson, and agree on your statement on DM's. Essentially it's about any improvised action, not just in the way spells are used.

But the thing is: when I look at the discussions in the Playground, as on other fora, the most outrages examples of rules abuse are almost always about spells. You don't see (here some random examples) threads where somebody argues that the fighter in a grapple should be able to break an arm or leg with a succesful check (even though real life grappling gives pretty good reasons for it), you don't see arguments for perma-blindness when throwing acid in somebody's eyes. But somehow, when spells are involved, some people tend towards the most absurd interpretations. 'Because magic', I guess...

[krugaan]

It's not so surprising all the arguments are about RAW... after all, that's the only thing TO argue about (basically). Other than provably opinionated statements like "X class is better", for almost every other argument the correct answer is "ask your DM", because that's how 5E is designed, I guess.

Edit: and yes, the whole "creative formatting" thing is super irritating, especially when it's the statement formatted is not correct questionable.

[RulesJD]

For you visual learners out there:

X = Fighter

| = an edge of the WoF

o = center of the Fireball


| X | = the Fighter trapped in the WoF that is 1/2 inch (or 2 inches, it literally makes no difference and the 3/4 cover rules literally state that an arrow slit (roughly two inches) provides 3/4 cover and is more than small enough to prevent the Fighter from getting out) hovering off the ground.

| o X | = Fighter with the center point of the Fireball.


Where, precisely, do you envision the Fighter getting cover from?

Now, if the scenario were instead:

o | X | = I'd absolutely agree. But it's not. Because the Wizard gets to pick a point within 150ft, that they can see, and that they have a LoE to, all of which are provided for by the 1/2 gap (or 2 inch). Whether you like it or not, that's the rules.

Can the Fighter shoot out of the WoF? Sure, at 3/4 cover (because it has to make an attack roll through the 1/2 (or 2 inch) gap, against the Wizard who will be prone, thus at Disadvantage. Sharpshooter can negate the 3/4 cover, but can't negate the Disadvantage. However, the Wizard will also be in a Rope Trick. So on the Fighter's turn, it has nothing to attack and can't get out of the WoF (in the Whiteroom scenario). At best it can Ready Action -> 1 bow attack at disadvantage when the Wizard appears from the Rope Trick.


But what about the Fighter digging out/shoving dirt up against the gap? Well that doesn't help the Fighter any because then the Wizard doesn't need Rope Trick as it can get Full Cover from Mold Earth (as I stated many times previously), which incidentally will also excavate any dirt the Fighter either digs out on its turn (trying to escape) or tries to fill up (which the Wizard can just Mold Earth away in 5ft chunks until the entire WoF is filled with dirt, pinning the Fighter in its 5ft cube.

[RulesJD]

I think you are right, MaxWilson, and agree on your statement on DM's. Essentially it's about any improvised action, not just in the way spells are used.

But the thing is: when I look at the discussions in the Playground, as on other fora, the most outrages examples of rules abuse are almost always about spells. You don't see (here some random examples) threads where somebody argues that the fighter in a grapple should be able to break an arm or leg with a succesful check (even though real life grappling gives pretty good reasons for it), you don't see arguments for perma-blindness when throwing acid in somebody's eyes. But somehow, when spells are involved, some people tend towards the most absurd interpretations. 'Because magic', I guess...

Fully agreed there, which I think the last sentence really brings it about. Magic inherently lets you break what we envision as traditional laws of physics (grappling, swinging a sword, blocking a blow, etc) so there will be significantly more leeway. When one interpretation involves whether you can break a bone or blind someone with acid, while the other involves whether the meteors you called down from the heavens to obliterate an entire city at your whim, they aren't exactly on equal footing.

[Gwendol]

The gap between the WoF and the ground is no arrow slit. It's a tiny gap between an immaterial wall and the ground.

[smcmike]

For you visual learners out there:

X = Fighter

| = an edge of the WoF

o = center of the Fireball


| X | = the Fighter trapped in the WoF that is 1/2 inch (or 2 inches, it literally makes no difference and the 3/4 cover rules literally state that an arrow slit (roughly two inches) provides 3/4 cover and is more than small enough to prevent the Fighter from getting out) hovering off the ground.

| o X | = Fighter with the center point of the Fireball.


Where, precisely, do you envision the Fighter getting cover from?

Now, if the scenario were instead:

o | X | = I'd absolutely agree. But it's not. Because the Wizard gets to pick a point within 150ft, that they can see, and that they have a LoE to, all of which are provided for by the 1/2 gap (or 2 inch). Whether you like it or not, that's the rules.

Can the Fighter shoot out of the WoF? Sure, at 3/4 cover (because it has to make an attack roll through the 1/2 (or 2 inch) gap, against the Wizard who will be prone, thus at Disadvantage. Sharpshooter can negate the 3/4 cover, but can't negate the Disadvantage. However, the Wizard will also be in a Rope Trick. So on the Fighter's turn, it has nothing to attack and can't get out of the WoF (in the Whiteroom scenario). At best it can Ready Action -> 1 bow attack at disadvantage when the Wizard appears from the Rope Trick.


But what about the Fighter digging out/shoving dirt up against the gap? Well that doesn't help the Fighter any because then the Wizard doesn't need Rope Trick as it can get Full Cover from Mold Earth (as I stated many times previously), which incidentally will also excavate any dirt the Fighter either digs out on its turn (trying to escape) or tries to fill up (which the Wizard can just Mold Earth away in 5ft chunks until the entire WoF is filled with dirt, pinning the Fighter in its 5ft cube.

Oh jeez, the return of the arrow slit comparison. I don't even necessarily disagree with your conclusions, but an arrow slit is nothing like a two inch horizontal gap next to the ground.

Let's just leave it theoretical, so we don't get hung up on details:

1. Assuming a flat stone floor, it is possible to create a hemispherical wall of force such that the person inside cannot escape, but does not have total cover. Can we agree to this? I think I can. I would make the gap 6", probably.

2. The wizard can do a number of things to create total cover for himself, which he can move in and out of. This seems incontestable.

3. The wizard can place a fireball in any spot that he can get line of sight and effect to, including behind 3/4 cover. I think I agree with this, but it seems open to DM discussion.

[smcmike]

Fully agreed there, which I think the last sentence really brings it about. Magic inherently lets you break what we envision as traditional laws of physics (grappling, swinging a sword, blocking a blow, etc) so there will be significantly more leeway. When one interpretation involves whether you can break a bone or blind someone with acid, while the other involves whether the meteors you called down from the heavens to obliterate an entire city at your whim, they aren't exactly on equal footing.

Huh?

Magic has rules too. If you want your spells to do anything that isn't explicitly described in the book, you need to talk to your DM, which is exactly the same as when I use my athletics to, say, break all of a mage's fingers.

[Gwendol]

Huh?

Magic has rules too. If you want your spells to do anything that isn't explicitly described in the book, you need to talk to your DM, which is exactly the same as when I use my athletics to, say, break all of a mage's fingers.

We've learned that all you have to say is "tada, magic!"

[RulesJD]

Huh?

Magic has rules too. If you want your spells to do anything that isn't explicitly described in the book, you need to talk to your DM, which is exactly the same as when I use my athletics to, say, break all of a mage's fingers.

That isn't the problem. The problem is when a very important element of the spell is left out. For example from like 10 pages back, WoF doesn't say that it isn't moveable.

Obviously it's intended not to be moveable (would be a pretty crappy Wall spell otherwise) yet people want to argue that it is moveable.

Now, for physical, non-magical stuff we can more readily come up with an answer. If it was just a large upside half-dome made out of rock, of course it's moveable because at the end of the day it's just a bunch of rock.

The general rules (3/4 cover if trying to hit something behind a gap) applies to almost all things you would want to do physically, even if not expressly covered by the rules. If you want to dig out from underneath the WoF, there are no rules (afaik) regarding how much a character can dig in a round. But, we can approximate because we have a concept of how much dirt weighs, how much a hand can hold, how much energy and strength it takes, etc. Basically, we've all dug holes before and so we have a rough idea.

No one has any idea how hard it is to shoot a streak of a fireball under a 1/2 inch gap, because none of us can shoot magical fireballs (again, afaik). I guess you could compare it to shooting a gun, but even that's an inaccurate comparison because again, magic.

*edit*

As a direct response, what am I asking to do that isn't explicitly called out in the text of the spell? I am pointing my finger at a point I can see and that I have LoE to, so where in the spell does it say that the Fireball wouldn't go off exactly where I intend it too underneath the WoF?

So far the only thing that has happened is other posters adding in additional requirements, like having to make a check or roll to see if you can actually aim the Fireball where you want to. The spell is explicit. Point I can see, LoS, LoE, boom. No additional requirements.

[Xetheral]

Sweet jebus that's laughably wrong.

"A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point

For jebus sake, just read the spell.

Laying down there is zero question that I have both Line of Sight and Line of Effect to the 20ft area under the gap in the WoF.

It is a bright streak, not a bead of any sort of size.

More importantly, look at that those words. The explosion is centered on the point. Which means if the point is INSIDE THE WoF LIKE I'VE SAID ABOUT 10,000 TIMES ALREADY, there is no cover between the Fighter and the point of the Fireball, BECAUSE IT IS INSIDE THE WoF.

The spell is indeed quite clear, and the text is utterly silent on what happens if you want to target the spell beyond a tiny gap under an invisible wall. Doing so is an exceptional circumstance not covered by the rules, and therefore requires DM adjudication.

[RulesJD]

Oh jeez, the return of the arrow slit comparison. I don't even necessarily disagree with your conclusions, but an arrow slit is nothing like a two inch horizontal gap next to the ground.

Let's just leave it theoretical, so we don't get hung up on details:

1. Assuming a flat stone floor, it is possible to create a hemispherical wall of force such that the person inside cannot escape, but does not have total cover. Can we agree to this? I think I can. I would make the gap 6", probably.

2. The wizard can do a number of things to create total cover for himself, which he can move in and out of. This seems incontestable.

3. The wizard can place a fireball in any spot that he can get line of sight and effect to, including behind 3/4 cover. I think I agree with this, but it seems open to DM discussion.

Fair points, I agree to all of that.

To end the debate (I went with 1/2 inch because it's the smallest space that I know would work because Forcecage), I think 6 inches is a solid reference.

Technically speak, a creature can only "squeeze" through a space 1 size smaller than it. Best case scenario that would be a Small Halfling/Gnome trying to get through a Tiny space.

Tiny, per PHB pg. 191, is 2 1/2 feet x 2 1/2 feet. So per the PHB, the WoF could be up to any amount off the ground equal or or less than 2 1/2 feet. Even I'll admit that's a fairly large gap to fit under, so 6 inches seems fine. Still (presumably) 3/4 cover provided each way under the WoF.

[RulesJD]

The spell is indeed quite clear, and the text is utterly silent on what happens if you want to target the spell beyond a tiny gap under an invisible wall. Doing so is an exceptional circumstance not covered by the rules, and therefore requires DM adjudication.

Please point to me where targeting an area behind a 1/2 inch gap qualifies as exceptional circumstances.

Indeed, please point to any requirement, anywhere, that targeting an area for a spell involves any consideration besides LoS and LoE (there exists a straight line between Caster and Point of Spell), unless the spell specifically calls out for one.

In fact, I would point you to the rules on Cover (PHB) that are suspiciously silent on any such requirement for targeting a spell outside of providing 1/2 or 3/4 cover to Attack Rolls. There is, in fact, no Attack Roll requirement for AoE spells to pass through 3/4 cover, so you are adding a requirement where there explicitly was not one included.

When does it stop becoming an "exceptional circumstance"? 1 inch, 2 inches, 6, 12, 72?

In case you're wondering, you're wrong. The spell happens how it happens when the stated requirements are met. Which they are. Fireball doesn't require effort to aim, nor does Magic Missile.

[MaxWilson]

I think you are right, MaxWilson, and agree on your statement on DM's. Essentially it's about any improvised action, not just in the way spells are used.

But the thing is: when I look at the discussions in the Playground, as on other fora, the most outrages examples of rules abuse are almost always about spells. You don't see (here some random examples) threads where somebody argues that the fighter in a grapple should be able to break an arm or leg with a succesful check (even though real life grappling gives pretty good reasons for it), you don't see arguments for perma-blindness when throwing acid in somebody's eyes. But somehow, when spells are involved, some people tend towards the most absurd interpretations. 'Because magic', I guess...

Well, the Playground is a fairly silly place which doesn't represent real games well. Much (most?) of the advice given/received here is either unsound or sometimes outright wrong. It's almost as if some people "play" D&D primarily by posting on the Internet instead of actually playing it at a table. If you actually want good DMing advice you have to go elsewhere like Courtney Campbell's blog (hackslashmaster.blogspot.com).

In short, I agree with your observations, but they don't trouble me because my expectations for GITP are so low.

[krugaan]

Well, the Playground is a fairly silly place which doesn't represent real games well. Much (most?) of the advice given/received here is either unsound or sometimes outright wrong. It's almost as if some people "play" D&D primarily by posting on the Internet instead of actually playing it at a table. If you actually want good DMing advice you have to go elsewhere like Courtney Campbell's blog (hackslashmaster.blogspot.com).

In short, I agree with your observations, but they don't trouble me because my expectations for GITP are so low.

Lol, yes, this is primarily an internet forum which is tangentially related to D&D 5E. Some of the info is pretty good, but the mainly this is a place to exercise your brain.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh absolutely; any game where a level 10 character is being thrown at a level 20 character in a solo match under any circumstances (regardless of which is a PC or NPC) is a game with very weird things going on at the table.

Back to the theoretical argument, I assume this Wizard is an Evoker we're talking about, correct?

[smcmike]

When does it stop becoming an "exceptional circumstance"? 1 inch, 2 inches, 6, 12, 72?.

Ask your DM.

[georgie_leech]

Ask your DM.

Quibble, I think a gap large enough that the person is entirely visible with no cover definitely counts as not an exceptional circumstance :smalltongue:

[Waazraath]

Fully agreed there, which I think the last sentence really brings it about. Magic inherently lets you break what we envision as traditional laws of physics (grappling, swinging a sword, blocking a blow, etc) so there will be significantly more leeway. When one interpretation involves whether you can break a bone or blind someone with acid, while the other involves whether the meteors you called down from the heavens to obliterate an entire city at your whim, they aren't exactly on equal footing.

Well, that's an honest answer, thank you for that. But you do realize that "there will be significantly more leeway" is just an opinion? Fine if you have this one, and if it works in your games, great. But with just as much effort, one can have the opinion (and argue) that martials deserve significantly more leeway, since we're talking about heroic martials, the likes of which aren't seen in our own world... and since in our own world there are millions of martial artist who can break limbs and snap necks with ease, when grappling a significantly weaker opponent, imagine how trivially easy it would be for a heroic DND grappler, which can grapple with a troll and emerge victorious? (Just to make a point claiming the other side, not neccesarily my own).

In my view: to make a game like this work, you need rules who inevitebly are a quite rough abstraction from both earth shaking magic as well as the more physical dangers that we know in this world. These rules make it a playable game. And within the framework of the rules, a lot of things get a bit twisted. There was some time ago a nice thread about poisons in 5e, concluding that while in no way similair to what poisons do IRL, it was a useful abstraction, for a game. Just as the combat rules are a useful abstraction, and the magic rules as well. That's why a fireball does 6d8 damage, and that's it, while nobody suffers from burn injuries, and things aren't blown away by the explosion.

The game did create some room though, mostly through the DM. Quite explicitly, in 5e. There's also a little help, on page 193 PHB, in the 'improvising an action' sidebare. But everything that moves away from the rules, is an interpretation, is something that isn't explicitly described, is 'ask your DM territory'.

In discussions like these, if we want to be fair, I think we need to decide beforehand if there will be a permissive DM, or a very strict one, regarding improvised actions (both magical as martial). Strict is easier, most likely, cause there'll be less opportunity for differences in interpretation. In general I think that a permissive DM favours casters. The high level spells have quite dramatic effects (that's why they are limited as 1/day, and often with expensive components or other drawbacks (like in teleport). To be permissive with these dramatic effect, will have larger influence than when being permissive with other stuff (like breaking fingers).

[Xetheral]

Please point to me where targeting an area behind a 1/2 inch gap qualifies as exceptional circumstances.

Indeed, please point to any requirement, anywhere, that targeting an area for a spell involves any consideration besides LoS and LoE (there exists a straight line between Caster and Point of Spell), unless the spell specifically calls out for one.

In fact, I would point you to the rules on Cover (PHB) that are suspiciously silent on any such requirement for targeting a spell outside of providing 1/2 or 3/4 cover to Attack Rolls. There is, in fact, no Attack Roll requirement for AoE spells to pass through 3/4 cover, so you are adding a requirement where there explicitly was not one included.

When does it stop becoming an "exceptional circumstance"? 1 inch, 2 inches, 6, 12, 72?

In case you're wondering, you're wrong. The spell happens how it happens when the stated requirements are met. Which they are. Fireball doesn't require effort to aim, nor does Magic Missile.

It's an exceptional circumstance precisely because it isn't dealt with by the text. Just as is it left unmentioned what would happen if (e.g.) you picked a point inside a full-sphere wall of force... we know the spell can't get inside, but does it detonate on the outside? Fail completely? As another example, the spell leaves unmentioned what happens if you want to damage objects instead of creatures (other than igniting flammable ones). All of these are exceptional circumstances that require a ruling from the DM.

And as for when the situation stops being an exceptional circumstance, I concur with both smcmike and georgie_leech.

[Shaofoo]

In discussions like these, if we want to be fair, I think we need to decide beforehand if there will be a permissive DM, or a very strict one, regarding improvised actions (both magical as martial). Strict is easier, most likely, cause there'll be less opportunity for differences in interpretation. In general I think that a permissive DM favours casters. The high level spells have quite dramatic effects (that's why they are limited as 1/day, and often with expensive components or other drawbacks (like in teleport). To be permissive with these dramatic effect, will have larger influence than when being permissive with other stuff (like breaking fingers).

I think if we want to be fair we should just ban anything that requires DM intervention since just even saying a permissive or strict Dm says nothing. Because when you count a DM then all bets are off, anything and everything can happen and is allowed or denied based on the DM, there is no benchmark as to what a DM is. This is why whiteroom scenarios is never a scenario of actual gameplay, because there is so much that happens because of so many reasons that no one will be willing to say what they are (whether because they don't know or forgot or are hiding it because it weakens their argument).

[RulesJD]

*snip* the likes of which aren't seen in our own world... and since in our own world there are millions of martial artist who can break limbs and snap necks with ease, when grappling a significantly weaker opponent, imagine how trivially easy it would be for a heroic DND grappler, which can grapple with a troll and emerge victorious? (Just to make a point claiming the other side, not neccesarily my own).

*snip*

The game did create some room though, mostly through the DM. Quite explicitly, in 5e. There's also a little help, on page 193 PHB, in the 'improvising an action' sidebare. But everything that moves away from the rules, is an interpretation, is something that isn't explicitly described, is 'ask your DM territory'.
*snip*.

A few issues:

1. The problem for martials are that the rules are much more explicit about what they can and cannot do. A level 20 Fighter, no matter how hard they try, can't lift more than what the PHB would allow (STR * 15lbs as I recall). We have some tangible references for the power they wield. We have no reference for the power wielded by someone that can Stop Time or True Polymorph into an Ancient Brass Dragon, etc.

Honestly it's kind of exemplified by the latests Civil War movie. No matter how amazingly balls awesome Captain America is at being the world's best Fighter, his opponent could just grab a semi-automatic shotgun and blow his legs off because he himself isn't bulletproof and his Shield only covers so much of his body. Or use a Mk-19 grenade launcher and aim around him so the shrapnel comes in from multiple angles. Or fire two tank missiles programmed to approach from opposite angles.

The only way he survives (and I love him as a character so it pains me to say this) is through Plot Armor. In this fight the Fighter doesn't get Plot Armor and the Wizard is loaded with semi-automatic shotguns that shoot Mk-19s firing tank missiles.

2. None of what I talked about involved improvising an action, quite the opposite. Other posters want to improvise rules (must make an Attack Roll or whatever to cast a non-Attack Roll spell through a small gap) where there are none. Literally the opposite. The spell is explicit about what it needs, and those conditions are met. Any additional conditions are improvised rules.

[RulesJD]

It's an exceptional circumstance precisely because it isn't dealt with by the text. Just as is it left unmentioned what would happen if (e.g.) you picked a point inside a full-sphere wall of force... we know the spell can't get inside, but does it detonate on the outside? Fail completely? As another example, the spell leaves unmentioned what happens if you want to damage objects instead of creatures (other than igniting flammable ones). All of these are exceptional circumstances that require a ruling from the DM.

And as for when the situation stops being an exceptional circumstance, I concur with both smcmike and georgie_leech.

Except it is covered by the rules.

Does the Wizard have LoE to the center of a full sphere WoF? No. Ergo, can't cast the spell as intended. That's literally in the PHB. He can certainly explode a Fireball on the outside of the sphere. If the Fighter had some ability to interpose Full Cover between themselves and the Fireball prior to the spell impacting (Resilient Sphere on Contingency for example) then the Fireball follows the rules as stated previously where a spell impacts on Full Cover.

The issue is that there isn't Full Cover between the Wizard and the point of the Fireball.

Fireball is vague on hurting objects. Shatter is not (it explicitly damages them, especially metal ones). What's the HP of a Helmet? Unknown (afaik) but Shackles (same material) have 15hp, so there is some guidance per PHB.

All of this was stated in prior posts. Stop trying to improvise rules.

[MaxWilson]

A few issues:

1. The problem for martials are that the rules are much more explicit about what they can and cannot do. A level 20 Fighter, no matter how hard they try, can't lift more than what the PHB would allow (STR * 15lbs as I recall). We have some tangible references for the power they wield. We have no reference for the power wielded by someone that can Stop Time or True Polymorph into an Ancient Brass Dragon, etc.

To use the "gag the wizard" example again, the rules are explicitly non-explicit. Here's what the rules say:



Contests in Combat

Battle often involves pitting your prowess against that of your foe. Such a challenge is represented by a contest. This section includes the most common contests that require an action in combat: grappling and shoving a creature. The GM can use these contests as models for improvising others.

Shoving a Creature

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

The target must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Instead of making an attack roll, you make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.


The DMG adds Disarm, Climb Aboard, and Overrun a possible alternate contests, but it's explicitly DM's judgment call whether gagging a wizard or breaking/numbing his fingers would be allowed as a contest. Improvisation at game-time is openly encouraged for warriors in a way that it just isn't for Vancian casters--the only 5E spell that says anything like "Here are some possible effects of the spell; the DM can use these as a model for improvising others" is Bestow Curse. Which my players have used, by the way, to prevent other PCs from speaking and to give guards diarrhea.

[RickAllison]

By the way, for the Fireball...

"I ready an action to kick dirt where he tries to point to."

So when the caster points, he sends a Fireball right into the dust.

[RulesJD]

To use the "gag the wizard" example again, the rules are explicitly non-explicit. Here's what the rules say:



The DMG adds Disarm, Climb Aboard, and Overrun a possible alternate contests, but it's explicitly DM's judgment call whether gagging a wizard or breaking/numbing his fingers would be allowed as a contest. Improvisation at game-time is openly encouraged for warriors in a way that it just isn't for Vancian casters--the only 5E spell that says anything like "Here are some possible effects of the spell; the DM can use these as a model for improvising others" is Bestow Curse. Which my players have used, by the way, to prevent other PCs from speaking and to give guards diarrhea.

Ahhh gotcha.

No I'm all about that as well, my favorite character is my level 17 Champion Fighter/Bear Barbarian. He has zero magic, which I love because it's a challenge. It forces me as a player to improvise, which is love about D&D.

The problem is, in this scenario, the Wizard goes first and prevents that. Or, by level 11, the Wizard gets Contingency and shuts down the Fighter's ability to do anything outside of rolling around a giant hamster ball. That's the fortunate/unfortunate side effect of certain spells being perhaps more powerful than they should be against classes without any spell casting abilities. Without some form of non-magical teleportation (like the EK has)/Disintegrate, WoF is just a massively powerful spell. I'll grant you it probably wasn't intended to be (or at least I hope not), but they haven't seen fit to change it at all.

[Gwendol]

Except it is covered by the rules.

Does the Wizard have LoE to the center of a full sphere WoF? No. Ergo, can't cast the spell as intended. That's literally in the PHB. He can certainly explode a Fireball on the outside of the sphere. If the Fighter had some ability to interpose Full Cover between themselves and the Fireball prior to the spell impacting (Resilient Sphere on Contingency for example) then the Fireball follows the rules as stated previously where a spell impacts on Full Cover.

The issue is that there isn't Full Cover between the Wizard and the point of the Fireball.

Fireball is vague on hurting objects. Shatter is not (it explicitly damages them, especially metal ones). What's the HP of a Helmet? Unknown (afaik) but Shackles (same material) have 15hp, so there is some guidance per PHB.

All of this was stated in prior posts. Stop trying to improvise rules.

You need a clear path to the target. In this case the path is mostly blocked by an immaterial wall of force. It can't be seen.
Therefore, your claims fall short of being typical and into DM adjucation territory.

[MaxWilson]

Ahhh gotcha.

No I'm all about that as well, my favorite character is my level 17 Champion Fighter/Bear Barbarian. He has zero magic, which I love because it's a challenge. It forces me as a player to improvise, which is love about D&D.

The problem is, in this scenario, the Wizard goes first and prevents that. Or, by level 11, the Wizard gets Contingency and shuts down the Fighter's ability to do anything outside of rolling around a giant hamster ball. That's the fortunate/unfortunate side effect of certain spells being perhaps more powerful than they should be against classes without any spell casting abilities. Without some form of non-magical teleportation (like the EK has)/Disintegrate, WoF is just a massively powerful spell. I'll grant you it probably wasn't intended to be (or at least I hope not), but they haven't seen fit to change it at all.

The improvisation discussion doesn't actually have anything (that I know of) to do with the Wall of Force/total cover arguments. It's just a tangent inspired by a rant that was hidden in a spoiler, only now we've apparently dropped the spoiler tags.

[Cazero]

Except it is covered by the rules.

Does the Wizard have LoE to the center of a full sphere WoF? No. Ergo, can't cast the spell as intended. That's literally in the PHB. He can certainly explode a Fireball on the outside of the sphere. If the Fighter had some ability to interpose Full Cover between themselves and the Fireball prior to the spell impacting (Resilient Sphere on Contingency for example) then the Fireball follows the rules as stated previously where a spell impacts on Full Cover.

The issue is that there isn't Full Cover between the Wizard and the point of the Fireball.

Fireball is vague on hurting objects. Shatter is not (it explicitly damages them, especially metal ones). What's the HP of a Helmet? Unknown (afaik) but Shackles (same material) have 15hp, so there is some guidance per PHB.

All of this was stated in prior posts. Stop trying to improvise rules.

Do you have Line of Effect through closed doors 30 feet away from you? No you don't. There is a closed door in the way. Any existing opening is too small, and making it transparent won't help. Similarly, if you chose to put your wall of force at 1/2 inch above the ground, every space inside it is getting full cover from you wizard and you can't shoot anything inside it. If that example is covered by the rules, it's definitely not the way you want.

[smcmike]

A few issues:

1. The problem for martials are that the rules are much more explicit about what they can and cannot do. A level 20 Fighter, no matter how hard they try, can't lift more than what the PHB would allow (STR * 15lbs as I recall). We have some tangible references for the power they wield. We have no reference for the power wielded by someone that can Stop Time or True Polymorph into an Ancient Brass Dragon, etc.

Honestly it's kind of exemplified by the latests Civil War movie. No matter how amazingly balls awesome Captain America is at being the world's best Fighter, his opponent could just grab a semi-automatic shotgun and blow his legs off because he himself isn't bulletproof and his Shield only covers so much of his body. Or use a Mk-19 grenade launcher and aim around him so the shrapnel comes in from multiple angles. Or fire two tank missiles programmed to approach from opposite angles.

The only way he survives (and I love him as a character so it pains me to say this) is through Plot Armor. In this fight the Fighter doesn't get Plot Armor and the Wizard is loaded with semi-automatic shotguns that shoot Mk-19s firing tank missiles.

2. None of what I talked about involved improvising an action, quite the opposite. Other posters want to improvise rules (must make an Attack Roll or whatever to cast a non-Attack Roll spell through a small gap) where there are none. Literally the opposite. The spell is explicit about what it needs, and those conditions are met. Any additional conditions are improvised rules.

Except, of course, ALL D&D characters have plot armor. It's called hit points, among other things, and the fighter gets lots of it. For example, if you shoot at Captain America, you will miss, because he's that good. Maybe he can't do that all day long, but you aren't gonna knock him over with one gunshot.

Also, as a point of fact, the rules indicate that you can make a strength check to lift, push, or pull things. The cap doesn't appear to actually be a hard cap, though it's ambiguous.

[MaxWilson]

Except, of course, ALL D&D characters have plot armor. It's called hit points, among other things, and the fighter gets lots of it. For example, if you shoot at Captain America, you will miss, because he's that good. Maybe he can't do that all day long, but you aren't gonna knock him over with one gunshot.

Also, as a point of fact, the rules indicate that you can make a strength check to lift, push, or pull things. The cap doesn't appear to actually be a hard cap, though it's ambiguous.

That statement is controversial. Trying to end one argument by starting another is, perhaps, not the best move here.

[Xetheral]

Except it is covered by the rules.

Does the Wizard have LoE to the center of a full sphere WoF? No. Ergo, can't cast the spell as intended. That's literally in the PHB. He can certainly explode a Fireball on the outside of the sphere. If the Fighter had some ability to interpose Full Cover between themselves and the Fireball prior to the spell impacting (Resilient Sphere on Contingency for example) then the Fireball follows the rules as stated previously where a spell impacts on Full Cover.

The issue is that there isn't Full Cover between the Wizard and the point of the Fireball.

Fireball is vague on hurting objects. Shatter is not (it explicitly damages them, especially metal ones). What's the HP of a Helmet? Unknown (afaik) but Shackles (same material) have 15hp, so there is some guidance per PHB.

All of this was stated in prior posts. Stop trying to improvise rules.

I'm not trying to improvise anything at all. I'm merely pointing out that the situation of trying to target a fireball beyond a gap in an invisible wall isn't covered by the rules.

There is no such thing as Line of Effect in 5e. Instead, according to the rules on page 204, a "clear path" must exist to the target, and furthermore a clear path necessarily does not exist to a target with full cover. However, it would be fallacious to assume that a "clear path" must therefore exist to every target lacking full cover. Accordingly, because the rules are silent on how to handle other situations (like this one) where the target lacks full cover yet the existence of a "clear path" is questionable, the DM has to make a ruling (just like how, as you admit, the DM has to make a ruling on whether or not Fireball can damage objects other than lighting them on fire).

You are also making a mistake in regards to the very next paragraph on the same page. AoE's detonate early not when they unexpectedly encounter "full cover", as you claim, but instead when they encounter an "obstacle". Note however, that this section explicitly deals with situations where the intended point of origin is unseen. When trying to shoot a target behind a full sphere Wall of Force, however, the intended Point of Origin is seen, it's only the obstacle that isn't, and therefore these rules may or may not apply, and a DM ruling is required. If you decide to apply these rules to situations where the obstacle is unseen but the intended Point of Origin is visible, great, in that case, at your table, we know that a Fireball targeted behind a full sphere Wall of Force will detonate prematurely on the Wall of Force.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yet no one is considering the starting gear for a fighter. I haven't been paying attention but did any of the builds ever use wealth for anything besides buying armor and ammo?

While it is assumed that you will gain wealth and items as you level up (and it is how it is played almost all the time) there is nothing in the game that guarantees that fact, the only thing you are guaranteed is the starting gear. You could theoretically go from level 1 to 20 with only your starting sword and armor.

Well, no, you can't theoretically get to 20 without magic items if we're following the rules of the game. There are loot tables and with the distribution given it's a statistical certainty that the level 20 character will have acquired magic items in the standard game.


Wait, wtf???

Now the Wizard, already being at a significant level disadvantage, has to go through OTHER fights before then?

Stop, just stop posting your scenarios because they are terribly wrong. Nowhere, anywhere, did it say anything about prior fights. Otherwise I just make up that the level 20 Fighter ALSO had to go through those same fights, so they have no Action Surge left and are at half health. Congrats, you Fighter REALLY loses now because the EK can't teleport out of the WoF, your BM has no superiority die for Precision, etc.

OR

We stop making illogical assumptions. Yes, the Wizard gets their Contingency because this is a whiteroom analysis.

Now to your actual points:

1. I literally couldn't imagine a level 20 Wizard (who would have I think at minimum 44 spells known just due to leveling alone) that doesn't pick up Wish + Demiplane. Heck, technically the only spell needed to pull it all off is Wish. Wish -> Demiplane. Walk in and long rest. Wish -> Clone, etc. That's not a valid argument.

2. Please, I beg of you, read the prior posts. I used Tiny Hut/MMM to show how the Fighter wouldn't be able to ambush the Wizard (and thus start what was supposed to be a whiteroom analysis) immediately after casting Contingency at some time in the 10 days prior to the fight. Please, read my post. That's literally what I wrote, NOT that the Wizard would cast Tiny Hut during the combat.

3. It would take 12 seconds per day to create a Demiplane with a Clone in it. Every day, minus the ones where the Wizard has other uses for their 9th level spell slot.

4. Please, I beg of you, read the prior posts. A level 10 Wizard doesn't care about gold anymore, a level 20 Wizard would probably have forgotten what gold is even used for anymore. Absolutely Spellbooks are the toughest part of the whole infinite-1 Demiplane thing, but you really only need a few.

5. If my DM would rule that I can't recall which Demiplane had what (the spell says I can but apparently we're ignoring that) then yes, my last ASI would absolutely be for Keen Mind, especially because then I can just use Fabricate on some wood and ink to create new spellbooks for free, instantly.

Your claim of Contingency remaining in effect requires the Wizard to experience exactly 0 combats between the time of casting and encountering the Fighter, which is simply will not occur in 100% of scenarios. It's fairly implausible that it would ever occur in a random encounter as opposed to a planned meeting, which this scenario is not.

1. I think it's fairly easy to imagine a Wizard who uses one of the 12 other 9th level spells and instead learns, for example: True Polymorph, Time Stop, Imprisonment, and Astral Projection (or any of the other combinations). If one only employed wish they could only create 1 clone/demiplane combo for every 48 hours they live, provided they remember to bring along provisions of course, but that costs money they don't actually have because they're spending every day of their life creating useless clones apparently instead of getting money. Side note: Remember to stock plenty of food and water in all these demiplanes to avoid suffering the +7 levels of exhaustion gained from 2 days without nutrition.

2. And I said the hut can be buried under a mound of dirt, suffocating the Wizard (unless they leave) or dug under, preventing it from preventing combat immediately after contingency (or even shortly before contingency). Which you did not address.

3. This doesn't comport with your statement "Wish->Demiplane. Walk in and long rest. Wish->Clone, etc..." That would require 48 hours as characters can only benefit from one long rest per 24 hour period. So, unless that Wizard is walking around without a 9th or 8th level spell slot, no.

4. Everyone cares about gold, to scribe 44 spells would require:
1st lvl: 8 hours and 80 gold
2nd lvl: 8 hours and 80 gold
3rd lvl: 12 hours and 120 gold
4th lvl: 16 hours and 160 gold
5th lvl: 20 hours and 200 gold
6th lvl: 24 hours and 240 gold
7th lvl: 28 hours and 280 gold
8th lvl: 32 hours and 320 gold
9th lvl: 72 hours and 720 gold

220 hours to scribe each and every spell book (that's 9 days) and 1,480 gold. Of course, that's assuming it's done by comparing to the current spellbook, if that gets lost the time required doubles and the costs quintuple (not that the Wizard would have their gold to pay those costs anymore.

5. The DM wouldn't have to rule this, if your character doesn't remember the details of the demiplane they can't access it again.


If there is no containment vessel, where is the clone maturing?

Presumably if no container is provided, then the clone would die from not being in the appropriate location to mature.


There's nothing stopping the Wizard from sitting in their Demiplane while the first Clone matures.

Food and Water supplies for 120 days won't fit in the demiplane. The Wizard would die of exhaustion long before the clone matures if they don't leave to restock on those. Also, where is the waste going? That demiplane will be filthy.

Still, it's been shown that a level 10 Fighter of any subclass can kill the level 20 Wizard in a single round, before the Wizard can act. So even if it weren't logistically impossible for the Wizard to have a large number of clones, they would still remain vulnerable to being gibbed in the local market by any kingdom reknowned Fighter.


We're at the point where a level 13 could, given ample preparation time and gold.

It's plausible for any level 10 to kill any level 20 provided the level 10 can catch the level 20 sleeping. That doesn't really tell us anything though.


Actually, you want to keep his ears so you can interrogate him on where his clones are!

Alternatively just take the head and hire a Cleric to Speak with Dead it. The entire ruse would be revealed in moments and steps could be taken to locate and finish off the clone(s).


What can this build do to attack?

Well...

I'm assuming rapier is the melee weapon known?
Rapier: +8 to hit, 1d8+3 damage x 2 = 15
Firebolt: +8, 2d10 = 11
Booming Blade: +8, 1d8+3 (possibly +2d8 if target moves after) = 7.5 + 9 = 16.5

So for things they can do every time, the Rapier is their most reliable source of damage, with Booming Blade having ever so slightly higher potential, but only if the target moves.

The subject only has Vampiric Touch = 5.5/lvl damage (27.5 max) If they can hold it for 10 rounds that's 275 damage.

Problem: They can't possibly survive 4+ rounds of melee, forget 10. The Bladesinger is too fragile to win at attrition, especially when the Champion is healing 10 hp per round. The biggest hit this guy can output is


Also in all fairness to you, he needs to have a set amount of arrows that he has to recollect or forced into hand-to-hand combat with say a rapier and honestly give yourself both booming blade and green flame blade and shocking grasp for cantrips, only fair.

I'd be inclined to think the Champion would disarm the Bladesinger and take their weapon. But, as to the optimal weapon choice, I'd think two shortswords for the bonus attack and the opportunity to disarm/trip the Bladesinger would be worthwhile. This is somewhat dependent on feats (did they get dualwielding?) and fighting styles selected by the Champion.


Magic missile no longer has a clause about moving around corners to find the target. You need a clear line to the target. A 1/2" gap won't grant you that, and the fighter has total cover, so that spell won't work. They can't be targeted.

Do you think total cover would still grant the +5 dexterity save and AC to AoE spells that 3/4 cover grants?

Also, move earth requires the Bladesingers action, yet another turn they aren't doing damage and during which the Champion would be regenerating health and during which Bladesinging is running out. Running out the clock is the Champions game, any round the Bladesinger isn't dealing damage is one step closer to the Champion winning, period.

So dig dig dig, trying to counter is waste of the Bladesinger's limited time and resources.


On reflection, this edition lacks the pea-sized descriptor. What say the playground? How large is the streak of flame?

Delayed Blast Fireball has it as the size of a bead when it condenses. I'd posit it's the circumference of a pen or pinky or wand tip, or something similar. A pea or kernal of corn would be approximately the same width/diameter.


We discussed upthread a very similar tactic: using Wall of Force followed by Stone Shape, Shape Water to move water, and then another readied Wall of Force (trigger: as soon as the fighter is submerged in water and/or the stone cage cracks) which drops the first Wall of Force and allows the stone cage to fill with water.

Stoneshape requires that the stone object to be shaped (not the result, but the original material) be no more than 5 feet thick. The spell requirements even specify that it can't work on a wall that's more than 5 feet thick.

There's also the problem that it requires the caster to touch the specific stone to be shaped, and the Wall of Force is covering that area in enough depth that it simply can't be touched from outside the wall.


So do I based on the fact that the wizard has no line of effect. There is an argument to be made that the wizard may have line of effect if lying flat on the ground, but the fighter can still get total cover by standing on something higher than the gap.

Or by visually obscuring the gap (kick up dirt, put a shield in the way, drop a coil of rope, whatever it's a tiny enough space that most any object will block it.


3. The wizard can place a fireball in any spot that he can get line of sight and effect to, including behind 3/4 cover. I think I agree with this, but it seems open to DM discussion.

Except the Wizard can't see the Wall of Force either, it's invisible. So the Wizard has no real idea where the cover is or isn't.


In fact, I would point you to the rules on Cover (PHB) that are suspiciously silent on any such requirement for targeting a spell outside of providing 1/2 or 3/4 cover to Attack Rolls. There is, in fact, no Attack Roll requirement for AoE spells to pass through 3/4 cover, so you are adding a requirement where there explicitly was not one included.

3/4 cover is when about 3/4 of the body has cover. This isn't even close to "about 3/4" it's 99%. That pushes it into total cover. As to where to draw the line, I'd say when you're at 90%+.

In case you're looking to modulate how high to try and place the wall of force, it's right at the point where one could easily just roll under it, rendering it worthless as a barrier to movement.

[MaxWilson]

Well, no, you can't theoretically get to 20 without magic items if we're following the rules of the game. There are loot tables and with the distribution given it's a statistical certainty that the level 20 character will have acquired magic items in the standard game.

Not actually true. The treasure tables award zero magic items in individual treasure; they only award magic items in hoards. A fighter who is not good at (or not motivated to) track monsters back to their hoards will acquire zero magic items by DMG tables.

In other words, there are no "rules of the game" on this subject, and it's incorrect to say "you can't theoretically get to 20 without magic items." In fact, here's a theoretical scenario that gets you all the way there (though not as a fighter) in a single day:

A first level fighter hears news of a demon rat infestation underneath his city. He goes in the sewers and discovers the whole place teeming with rats. Endless hordes of rats. By luck and by skill, he manages to kill twelve of them (hooray for Heavy Armor Master!), but he sees that he has no hope of ending the plague by himself, so he swears a blood oath to Graz'zt the Ever-Gracious: "If you will grant me power to end this plague, you may have all of my children as they are born, to do with as you will." Shazzam! He's now a Fighter 1/Fiendlock 1 who gets temp HP on every kill. 5 temp HP per kill, to be precise, and the rats do only d4-1 damage to him per hit due to Heavy Armor Master. He spends the next 24 hours advancing down a nightmare tunnel, with one rat coming at him per round through the 5' tunnel. On average, he kills one rat per round, resetting himself to 5 temp HP.

Twenty-four hours later he has killed 14,400 Giant Rats, earned 360,000 XP, and hit 20th level. Finally he reaches the center of the rat infestation where the Rat Queen Mother nests in her hive. She's CR 20 and so the fighter/warlock, full of the power of Graz'zt, transforms himself into an Ancient White Dragon and an epic battle commences! He slays her, and finally ends his first battle and claims his first treasure hoard. The end.

[Xetheral]

Not actually true. The treasure tables award zero magic items in individual treasure; they only award magic items in hoards. A fighter who is not good at (or not motivated to) track monsters back to their hoards will acquire zero magic items by DMG tables.

In other words, there are no "rules of the game" on this subject, and it's incorrect to say "you can't theoretically get to 20 without magic items." In fact, here's a theoretical scenario that gets you all the way there (though not as a fighter) in a single day:

A first level fighter hears news of a demon rat infestation underneath his city. He goes in the sewers and discovers the whole place teeming with rats. Endless hordes of rats. By luck and by skill, he manages to kill twelve of them (hooray for Heavy Armor Master!), but he sees that he has no hope of ending the plague by himself, so he swears a blood oath to Graz'zt the Ever-Gracious: "If you will grant me power to end this plague, you may have all of my children as they are born, to do with as you will." Shazzam! He's now a Fighter 1/Fiendlock 1 who gets temp HP on every kill. 5 temp HP per kill, to be precise, and the rats do only d4-1 damage to him per hit due to Heavy Armor Master. He spends the next 24 hours advancing down a nightmare tunnel, with one rat coming at him per round through the 5' tunnel. On average, he kills one rat per round, resetting himself to 5 temp HP.

Twenty-four hours later he has killed 14,400 Giant Rats, earned 360,000 XP, and hit 20th level. Finally he reaches the center of the rat infestation where the Rat Queen Mother nests in her hive. She's CR 20 and so the fighter/warlock, full of the power of Graz'zt, transforms himself into an Ancient White Dragon and an epic battle commences! He slays her, and finally ends his first battle and claims his first treasure hoard. The end.

So, he has an 18 charisma in order to get 5 temp HP per kill. Which means he's a high-charisma fighter/warlock, associated with rats in legends throughout time.... Hmm... the only question is, where did he get the pipe that gives him his name?

[MaxWilson]

So, he has an 18 charisma in order to get 5 temp HP per kill. Which means he's a high-charisma fighter/warlock, associated with rats in legends throughout time.... Hmm... the only question is, where did he get the pipe that gives him his name?

Umm, lessee... Combine this:


Improvised Weapons

Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.

with this:


You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it.

and maybe it's an improvised Pact Weapon: Clarinet. Bonus: he's "proficient" with "it", meaning the Pied Clarinet, but it doesn't say "as a weapon only," so perhaps he's even proficient in playing it!

[Naanomi]

So, he has an 18 charisma in order to get 5 temp HP per kill. Which means he's a high-charisma fighter/warlock, associated with rats in legends throughout time.... Hmm... the only question is, where did he get the pipe that gives him his name?
Entertainer Background

[djreynolds]

Oh absolutely; any game where a level 10 character is being thrown at a level 20 character in a solo match under any circumstances (regardless of which is a PC or NPC) is a game with very weird things going on at the table.

Back to the theoretical argument, I assume this Wizard is an Evoker we're talking about, correct?

The wizard is a bladesinger, which is a very good class

So back to the real conversation. I think for this bladesinger to have a chance, and its a slim one, it would have to be versus a strength based fighter and not our archer champion. The bow is just to effective as is pulling out a rapier. A strength based fighter can only have so many hand axes and javelins.

I honestly do not think many of the classes at 10th level could beat a 20th level champion, with a high percentage rate. The survivor class feature, resilient wisdom (if selected), con saves, and possibly shield master and taking the dodge action which grants advantage on dex saves, AC of around 19-21. The fighter is solid, all be it boring.

I would be excited to see how a valor bard or one of those UA archetypes might stack up, dissonant whispers could prove effective.

And remember its at 11th level and not 10th that cantrips go up in power. And that is really what is needed to either get the fighter to half HP and then blast him with 1st level spells and above or vice-versa.

And as crazy as it sounds, I had a thread about defeating a 20th level totem barbarian is martial combat and it was a 18 champion/ 2 rogue that was able to pull out the most wins... still a losing record, but some wins.

I found the survivor class feature, expertise in athletics, and shield master were a pretty effective trio. I wanna say this guy had a 2 out 5 chance of beating the totem barbarian.

And at work I ran some dice rolls in our archer champion vs the bladesinger, it was really tough getting to half hit points on the champion and not being at half of my spell slots. I even let the champion land instead of expending slots on the shield spell or the bladesinger's 10th level feature, just so I could drop some heat on the champion.

That's the big thing in 5E is the swingyness of the dice rolls.

[Gwendol]

I think my druid can stand a chance.

[djreynolds]

I think my druid can stand a chance.

I think so to.

If you can conjure enough beasts to eat away the fighter's first half of his hit points while staying in human form and blast the fighter with spells. Even just thorn whip, just enough to get him to half hit points.

Also the use of sentinel with conjured beast, if the fighter attacks you could get in some free hits.

But the AC becomes an issue, usually around a 16 with barkskin, means the fighter is able to use either GWM or even sharpshooter with disadvantage in melee, he's going to land some of those hits.

I'm unsure, but the mage slayer feat would give some problems trying to maintain something like moonbeam.

[NewDM]

Concentration is still a thing with that and they can be knocked out of it.

I've covered this repeatedly. War Caster + 2 Con + 3 Int = 20 damage or less attacks have 4% chance of interrupting a spell. 30 damage or more attacks have at least a 20.25% chance. Thus the fighter only has a chance on a crit, and even then its kinda low.


I would honestly say that we should ban anything that basically requires DM intervention and adjudication for the sake of actually being impartial but I am sure that will not go over well at all.

If we did that the game would become non functional.


I think if we want to be fair we should just ban anything that requires DM intervention since just even saying a permissive or strict Dm says nothing. Because when you count a DM then all bets are off, anything and everything can happen and is allowed or denied based on the DM, there is no benchmark as to what a DM is. This is why whiteroom scenarios is never a scenario of actual gameplay, because there is so much that happens because of so many reasons that no one will be willing to say what they are (whether because they don't know or forgot or are hiding it because it weakens their argument).

See above.

As to the Blade Singer info that keeps being requested. I provided it several times. Just skim for my post name in this thread and you'll find it.

[Gwendol]

Your build is listed in the OP.

[djreynolds]

NewDM's bladesinger is a great build, but vs the archer champion is limited in the fight. Now versus the melee opponents, I would give him a fair chance.

But versus the archer, this bladesinger must become a bully. 10th level is tough only because of the cantrip damage, level 11 would be better as the damage increases then.

Its obviously not a fair fight, the fighter has gobs of HP, very good AC. And in time, I fear the wizard runs out of spell slots because he's using them for the shield spell or to mitigate damage, the 10th level class feature.

That said, I would like to use NewDM's bladesinger, its a very good build. I like warcaster because it allows the AoO with a spell, let alone advantage on concentration checks.

[Waazraath]

1. The problem for martials are that the rules are much more explicit about what they can and cannot do. A level 20 Fighter, no matter how hard they try, can't lift more than what the PHB would allow (STR * 15lbs as I recall). We have some tangible references for the power they wield. We have no reference for the power wielded by someone that can Stop Time or True Polymorph into an Ancient Brass Dragon, etc.

I see it quite differently. Yes, we have a reference of power for 'mundane' things like poison, grappling, and hitting somebody with an axe, and even though that tangible references exist, these things are highly nerfed, and abstracted, to fit it into a playable game. It's no more then common sense that those same rules go for things that doesn't have reference point in the real world. So the spells describe what they do, nothing more. There is no "half inch above the ground" wall of force, only a wall of force. As soon as you want to get 'creative' with it, it's a DM call. If this feels weakend, or nerfed, compared to what you thing that magic should be able to do, well, comfort yourself with the fact that non-magic users are 'nerfed' in the same way. Because we need to have a playable game, in the end.

Further, I have the strong impression that 5e gives more room for improvized actions with 'normal' actions, then with spells; it are spells that are quite explicit described on what they do, and it is with 'improvise an action' that attacks and skills are meant to be used for creative stuff. But I'm aware that this is just an opinion, therefore my remark that, in running 1 vs 1 games like this, you need to agree on a standard, either strict or permissive on all abilities, where 'strict' is more logical. (agree with Shaofoo here).

[Jakinbandw]

I think just to take a look at how a high level fighter breaks reality, consider a crossbow user. With a surge, they can attack 9 times in a round. A round is only 6 seconds long. Now if you look up how long it takes to load a crossbow the fastest I've found is just under 10 seconds per bolt, but this is misleading as the damage and range is only 1/3rd as that of a longbow for that style of loading. Instead you are looking at thirty seconds to a over minute per bolt fired (assuming the fighter has the sharpshooter feat, and why wouldn't they?). At the high end, we can say a fighter can do 10 minutes worth of work, in 6 seconds using action surge. At the low end, it's still a full minutes worth of work.

So when people say that a fighter can't do something because it is impossible in our world, well, I can't help but laugh a little.

[MaxWilson]

I think just to take a look at how a high level fighter breaks reality, consider a crossbow user. With a surge, they can attack 9 times in a round. A round is only 6 seconds long. Now if you look up how long it takes to load a crossbow the fastest I've found is just under 10 seconds per bolt, but this is misleading as the damage and range is only 1/3rd as that of a longbow for that style of loading. Instead you are looking at thirty seconds to a over minute per bolt fired (assuming the fighter has the sharpshooter feat, and why wouldn't they?). At the high end, we can say a fighter can do 10 minutes worth of work, in 6 seconds using action surge. At the low end, it's still a full minutes worth of work.

So when people say that a fighter can't do something because it is impossible in our world, well, I can't help but laugh a little.

Maybe there's a faster way of using a crossbow? A crossbow equivalent of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g (10 arrows in 4.9 seconds)

[Jakinbandw]

Maybe there's a faster way of using a crossbow? A crossbow equivalent of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zGnxeSbb3g (10 arrows in 4.9 seconds)

Not that I could find. Also that technique sacrifices range and damage for speed. It's awesome, but it's using a very light draw. The fact that a sharpshooter fighter with a crossbow can shoot just as far as a fighter with a longbow, means that you have to have a really heavy pull strength.

Basically fighters flat out break what we can even imagine based on reality. Trying to say that they are more limited because of physics vs mages who use magic is a very very flawed assumption.

[MaxWilson]

Not that I could find. Also that technique sacrifices range and damage for speed. It's awesome, but it's using a very light draw. The fact that a sharpshooter fighter with a crossbow can shoot just as far as a fighter with a longbow, means that you have to have a really heavy pull strength.

Yes, I know it's a light draw, but it's the fingers that are the interesting part anyway, and this guy hasn't been training all of his life. I'm willing to extrapolate that a Fighter 20 would be much better at those techniques. Remember that D&D longbows have only half the range of real-life historical longbows, so maybe they are not using the full draw anyway--maybe they are also relying on speed and accuracy instead of raw strength. (Would also explain why Str doesn't increase damage.)

BTW, crossbows don't shoot as far as longbows in D&D. A heavy crossbow is 100'/400'. A longbow is 150'/600'. The Internet claims that real life longbow maximum range was about 1300'.


Basically fighters flat out break what we can even imagine based on reality. Trying to say that they are more limited because of physics vs mages who use magic is a very very flawed assumption.

I don't know about that. I can imagine someone using a crossbow very, very quickly; just cut out the extraneous motions like a separate cocking step (hold the trigger down?). It might turn out that there are problems with doing that in practice, not least of which is "is anyone really strong enough to do what you've just imagined?", but I can certainly imagine it, and what I'm imagining is based on reality.

[Skylivedk]

On Fireball: "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame."

So by RAW - yes, you can definitely shoot through half an inch of an opening: granted, you might just hit just 1 mm inside the WoF, but you'd hit.

On Wall of Force: "The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface."

It is clearly stated that WoF can float.

You can argue it is lame, but Fireball under WoF dome seems to be RAW. You'd need a DM ruling for the cloudkill combo.

There's no way the fighter would know that he ought to kick up dirt the first time. At all following attempts, he should be fine :)

[Jakinbandw]

Yes, I know it's a light draw, but it's the fingers that are the interesting part anyway, and this guy hasn't been training all of his life. I'm willing to extrapolate that a Fighter 20 would be much better at those techniques. Remember that D&D longbows have only half the range of real-life historical longbows, so maybe they are not using the full draw anyway--maybe they are also relying on speed and accuracy instead of raw strength. (Would also explain why Str doesn't increase damage.)

BTW, crossbows don't shoot as far as longbows in D&D. A heavy crossbow is 100'/400'. A longbow is 150'/600'. The Internet claims that real life longbow maximum range was about 1300'.



I don't know about that. I can imagine someone using a crossbow very, very quickly; just cut out the extraneous motions like a separate cocking step (hold the trigger down?). It might turn out that there are problems with doing that in practice, not least of which is "is anyone really strong enough to do what you've just imagined?", but I can certainly imagine it, and what I'm imagining is based on reality.

The thing is, a fighter using a crossbow doesn't have any need to have high strength because the crossbow works from dexterity. So in this hypothetical, the person is the same strength as you or I. This means a winding mechanism or something similar.

And yeah, I was wrong, the range is 400'. I'm not sure how you can see someone resetting the trigger, winding the crossbow, loading a bolt, then Aiming and shooting in less than a second while still able to move at standard walking speed.

At least not without looking like the flash. ;)

[georgie_leech]

Y
BTW, crossbows don't shoot as far as longbows in D&D. A heavy crossbow is 100'/400'. A longbow is 150'/600'. The Internet claims that real life longbow maximum range was about 1300'.



Mind you, IIRC at that range it often wasn't target shooting like what Fighters do but massed arced volleys that were fired at massed troop formations.

[dev6500]

OK the new and improved DROWN THE FIGHTER PLAN

Requires conjuration school wizard with mold earth, create or destroy water, and WoF

step 1, win initiative ;p

step 2, cast WoF as a 2.5 ft radius semi sphere about approximately 1/2 inch above the ground. The sphere will be placed in the middle of the fighter and thus you can decide which side of the sphere he is moved to. The fighter is shunted into a fetal position on the ground inside the semi sphere where he barely fits inside the 5ft diameter semisphere.

step 3, spend 16 rounds making a 2 ft tall 2.5 ft radius cylinder of dirt around the semisphere while leaving the space open for water to flow in. make the outer edge of the cylinder a little higher than 2 ft tall so water doesn't fall out later.

If fighter ever tries to dig his way out, remember to pack him pack him back in with mold earth since it can move 5ft cubes of dirt in a round it can outpace any attempts by the fighter to dig out.

step 4 use all your spell slots level 1 through 4 on create or destroy water to create 310 gallons of water or 41.4 cubic feat of water ( a whole extra cubic foot of water than the 2 ft tall by 2.5 radius cylinder can contain)

step 5 use minor conjuration to make 10 pounds of human pee to add into the cylinder giving us an extra 1.3 gallons of liquid .

step 6, cast wall of force as a flat surface covering the water filled cylinder. Any air in the previous semi sphere wall of force escapes when the new one is cast replacing it.

Fighter is now completely submerged inside pee water and has 1 + con mod minutes before he drowns. YAY!

[Skylivedk]

step 5 use minor conjuration to make 10 pounds of human pee to add into the cylinder giving us an extra 1.3 gallons of liquid .

Classy indeed ;)

[Specter]

I think just to take a look at how a high level fighter breaks reality, consider a crossbow user. With a surge, they can attack 9 times in a round. A round is only 6 seconds long. Now if you look up how long it takes to load a crossbow the fastest I've found is just under 10 seconds per bolt, but this is misleading as the damage and range is only 1/3rd as that of a longbow for that style of loading. Instead you are looking at thirty seconds to a over minute per bolt fired (assuming the fighter has the sharpshooter feat, and why wouldn't they?). At the high end, we can say a fighter can do 10 minutes worth of work, in 6 seconds using action surge. At the low end, it's still a full minutes worth of work.

So when people say that a fighter can't do something because it is impossible in our world, well, I can't help but laugh a little.

That's why I hate Crossbow Expert.

[Jakinbandw]

OK the new and improved DROWN THE FIGHTER PLAN

Requires conjuration school wizard with mold earth, create or destroy water, and WoF

step 1, win initiative ;p

step 2, cast WoF as a 2.5 ft radius semi sphere about approximately 1/2 inch above the ground. The sphere will be placed in the middle of the fighter and thus you can decide which side of the sphere he is moved to. The fighter is shunted into a fetal position on the ground inside the semi sphere where he barely fits inside the 5ft diameter semisphere.

step 3, spend 16 rounds making a 2 ft tall 2.5 ft radius cylinder of dirt around the semisphere while leaving the space open for water to flow in. make the outer edge of the cylinder a little higher than 2 ft tall so water doesn't fall out later.

If fighter ever tries to dig his way out, remember to pack him pack him back in with mold earth since it can move 5ft cubes of dirt in a round it can outpace any attempts by the fighter to dig out.

step 4 use all your spell slots level 1 through 4 on create or destroy water to create 310 gallons of water or 41.4 cubic feat of water ( a whole extra cubic foot of water than the 2 ft tall by 2.5 radius cylinder can contain)

step 5 use minor conjuration to make 10 pounds of human pee to add into the cylinder giving us an extra 1.3 gallons of liquid .

step 6, cast wall of force as a flat surface covering the water filled cylinder. Any air in the previous semi sphere wall of force escapes when the new one is cast replacing it.

Fighter is now completely submerged inside pee water and has 1 + con mod minutes before he drowns. YAY!

How can you tell which side the fighter is digging on without being able to see him?

[dev6500]

WoF is see through and my conjured pee glows so it shouldn't be hard to see what the fighter is doing.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

That's why I hate Crossbow Expert.

What you can do with a bow is almost as ridiculous, unless anyone can give me an example of an archer hitting 8 different moving targets 600 feet away in six seconds at full draw under combat conditions.

Edit: In the dark, in a blizzard, while prone, dying of poison and exhaustion, entangled in a net, scared out of his wits, against targets he can't actually see or hear, and after having been shot over a dozen times, had a grenade explode in his face, and fallen out of a 747.

[MaxWilson]

The thing is, a fighter using a crossbow doesn't have any need to have high strength because the crossbow works from dexterity. So in this hypothetical, the person is the same strength as you or I. This means a winding mechanism or something similar.

And yeah, I was wrong, the range is 400'. I'm not sure how you can see someone resetting the trigger, winding the crossbow, loading a bolt, then Aiming and shooting in less than a second while still able to move at standard walking speed.

At least not without looking like the flash. ;)

But that's exactly why I brought up speed-shooting with the bow--I don't imagine all of those steps. In point of fact, I imagine a (Crossbow Expert, Action-Surging 20th level fighter) taking the radical shortcut of just holding the trigger down while he pops another bolt onto the string from his hand, pulls the bow forward with his other hand to generate tension, and releases the bolt, then repeats that motion eight more times. An impressive feat of strength and precision, yes. Impossible to imagine? No. The Crossbow Expert in my head is skipping over the most time-consuming motions in favor of basically just loading, aiming and shooting nine times in a row.

============================================


What you can do with a bow is almost as ridiculous, unless anyone can give me an example of an archer hitting 8 different moving targets 600 feet away in six seconds at full draw under combat conditions.

Edit: In the dark, in a blizzard, while prone, dying of poison and exhaustion, entangled in a net, scared out of his wits, against targets he can't actually see or hear, and after having been shot over a dozen times, had a grenade explode in his face, and fallen out of a 747.

Yeah, you got me there. It's not really the speed that's uncanny, it's the precision.

[MaxWilson]

step 4 use all your spell slots level 1 through 4 on create or destroy water to create 310 gallons of water or 41.4 cubic feat of water ( a whole extra cubic foot of water than the 2 ft tall by 2.5 radius cylinder can contain)

No comment on the rest of the plan, but Create/Destroy Water is still not on the wizard spell list. That hasn't changed since the last time you it was discussed.

[dev6500]

No comment on the rest of the plan, but Create/Destroy Water is still not on the wizard spell list. That hasn't changed since the last time you it was discussed.

It is a 1st lvl spell. It only takes magic initiate to grab it. No problems here.

[MaxWilson]

It is a 1st lvl spell. It only takes magic initiate to grab it. No problems here.

That gives you one casting per day (unless your DM rules differently). Magic Initiate doesn't give you permission to spend your wizard spell slots on it--you still don't have Clerical Spellcasting as a class feature.

If you try to rely on Magic Initiate to grab Create Water, even though the rules say you can't and Sage Advice confirms that that restriction is deliberate, your solution will be controversial at best.

[Mellack]

It is a 1st lvl spell. It only takes magic initiate to grab it. No problems here.

Then you can only cast it once, at 1st level.

[georgie_leech]

That gives you one casting per day (unless your DM rules differently). Magic Initiate doesn't give you permission to spend your wizard spell slots on it--you still don't have Clerical Spellcasting as a class feature.

If you try to rely on Magic Initiate to grab Create Water, even though the rules say you can't and Sage Advice confirms that that restriction is deliberate, your solution will be controversial at best.

Particularly since the soft earth that Mold Earth requires for use generally let's water through. That's what mud is.

[Gwendol]

On Fireball: "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame."

So by RAW - yes, you can definitely shoot through half an inch of an opening: granted, you might just hit just 1 mm inside the WoF, but you'd hit.

On Wall of Force: "The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface."

It is clearly stated that WoF can float.

You can argue it is lame, but Fireball under WoF dome seems to be RAW. You'd need a DM ruling for the cloudkill combo.

There's no way the fighter would know that he ought to kick up dirt the first time. At all following attempts, he should be fine :)

You omit a few requirements, such as having a clear path to the target, and in this case to actually be able to see the gap. In other words, not RAW.

[RulesJD]

*SNIP*
Presumably if no container is provided, then the clone would die from not being in the appropriate location to mature.



*snip*


It's plausible for any level 10 to kill any level 20 provided the level 10 can catch the level 20 sleeping. That doesn't really tell us anything though.


*snip*

Except the Wizard can't see the Wall of Force either, it's invisible. So the Wizard has no real idea where the cover is or isn't.



3/4 cover is when about 3/4 of the body has cover. This isn't even close to "about 3/4" it's 99%. That pushes it into total cover. As to where to draw the line, I'd say when you're at 90%+.

In case you're looking to modulate how high to try and place the wall of force, it's right at the point where one could easily just roll under it, rendering it worthless as a barrier to movement.

You honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, you really, really don't.

Let me make a few general statements:

1. THE TARGET IS NOT THE FIGHTER FOR FIREBALL, IT'S THE POINT OF SPACE JUST INSIDE THE WALL OF FORCE WHERE THE FIREBALL CAN DETONATE

2. ARROW SLITS ARE DEFINED AS 3/4 COVER, MORE THAN ENOUGH TO HAVE A STRAIGHT LINE TO BUT PREVENT THE FIGHTER FROM ROLLING/ESCAPING UNDER THE WALL OF FORCE

3. WISH PROVIDES ALL MATERIAL COMPONENTS, INCLUDING THE VAT FOR THE CLONE SPELL AS IT IS SPECIFICALLY LISTED AS A MATERIAL COMPONENT. "THE SPELL JUST HAPPENS."

4. A WALL OF FORCE CAN BE FLOATING IN THE AIR AND IS IMMOBILE.

5. CONTINGENCY DOESN'T CARE WHETHER THE WIZARD IS AWAKE OR NOT, SO CATCHING HIM SLEEPING DOESN'T MATTER, YOU STILL LOSE.

Now that we've gotten those ridiculous claims out of the way....

[smcmike]

You honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly, you really, really don't.

Let me make a few general statements:

1. THE TARGET IS NOT THE FIGHTER FOR FIREBALL, IT'S THE POINT OF SPACE JUST INSIDE THE WALL OF FORCE WHERE THE FIREBALL CAN DETONATE

2. ARROW SLITS ARE DEFINED AS 3/4 COVER, MORE THAN ENOUGH TO HAVE A STRAIGHT LINE TO BUT PREVENT THE FIGHTER FROM ROLLING/ESCAPING UNDER THE WALL OF FORCE

3. WISH PROVIDES ALL MATERIAL COMPONENTS, INCLUDING THE VAT FOR THE CLONE SPELL AS IT IS SPECIFICALLY LISTED AS A MATERIAL COMPONENT. "THE SPELL JUST HAPPENS."

4. A WALL OF FORCE CAN BE FLOATING IN THE AIR AND IS IMMOBILE.

5. CONTINGENCY DOESN'T CARE WHETHER THE WIZARD IS AWAKE OR NOT, SO CATCHING HIM SLEEPING DOESN'T MATTER, YOU STILL LOSE.

Now that we've gotten those ridiculous claims out of the way....

Man, chill with the megacaps. It makes your arguments less convincing, not more...

[RulesJD]

*SNIP*

In case you're looking to modulate how high to try and place the wall of force, it's right at the point where one could easily just roll under it, rendering it worthless as a barrier to movement.

This is how I know you don't know the rules, at all. Go read the sections on Cover, and come back to the discussion.

You're used to the Fighter being the Player and thus "there's always a way" to win. Sorry, but there's not. No, your Fighter can't roll under a 1 inch gap, but yes my spell can travel through that gap to hit a target on the other side.

[Cybren]

This is how I know you don't know the rules, at all. Go read the sections on Cover, and come back to the discussion.

You're used to the Fighter being the Player and thus "there's always a way" to win. Sorry, but there's not. No, your Fighter can't roll under a 1 inch gap, but yes my spell can travel through that gap to hit a target on the other side.
The cover rules have to do with relative size of the covering object and the person they're covering. 3/4ths cover is about 3/4ths covered. As i'm 5'5'' i'm pretty sure I could fit under an 18 inch gap. Determining where between total cover and 3/4ths cover you switch from one or the other is ambiguous, and saying "the switch probably happens around where you can fit underneath it" is a reasonable DM call, because this is a DM's call. You can whine as much as you want but this is not a hard and fast fact based ruling. This is a subjective matter.

[Jakinbandw]

How is this contingency worded again? Put another way, how does it protect the wizard from the champion fighter build that attacks from extreme range?

[RulesJD]

How is this contingency worded again? Put another way, how does it protect the wizard from the champion fighter build that attacks from extreme range?

It's been discussed previously in the post.

Personally, I use the same trigger as the Sanctuary spell. "When targeted by an enemy" etc. That way it triggers even if just trying to Grapple, etc.

[Jakinbandw]

It's been discussed previously in the post.

Personally, I use the same trigger as the Sanctuary spell. "When targeted by an enemy" etc. That way it triggers even if just trying to Grapple, etc.

Okay, that is kinda useless then isn't it? The text of contingency reads:


The contingent spell takes effect only on you, even if it can normally target others. You can use only one contingency spell at a time. If you cast this spell again, the effect of another contingency spell on you ends. Also, contingency ends on you if its material component is ever not on your person.

So even if it is ruled that you can target yourself with WoF (it says a space you can see, not a creature, so RAW it can't), you are now trapped inside a small enclosed space with a grappling fighter, or alternately, the fighter sits outside with a bow waiting for the wall to drop while putting himself outside your spell range, but inside the range of his bow because he outranges the wizard. I'm not seeing how contingency is helping here.

[Cazero]

1. THE TARGET IS NOT THE FIGHTER FOR FIREBALL, IT'S THE POINT OF SPACE JUST INSIDE THE WALL OF FORCE WHERE THE FIREBALL CAN DETONATE
And that point has just as much cover than the fighter. You can't target it either. There is a wall of force in the way.


2. ARROW SLITS ARE DEFINED AS 3/4 COVER, MORE THAN ENOUGH TO HAVE A STRAIGHT LINE TO BUT PREVENT THE FIGHTER FROM ROLLING/ESCAPING UNDER THE WALL OF FORCE
The appropriate comparison is not an arrow slit. Arrow slits as 3/4 cover are vertical, definitely larger than half an inch, and have the standing target sticking some vital parts such as the head to the hole. The appropriate comparison is the closed door. You can't shoot through a closed door. It grants full cover and blocks lines of effect. By RAW being prone doesn't help at all. By real life calculation you need to stick your hand to the wall to get a halfway good angle and it won't be enough if the wall is too large. By RAI you will get a 'nope'.

Now if you could address those points instead of ignoring them, you might have a chance at being taken seriously. But the full caps doesn't help.

[smcmike]

And that point has just as much cover than the fighter. You can't target it either. There is a wall of force in the way.


The appropriate comparison is not an arrow slit. Arrow slits as 3/4 cover are vertical, definitely larger than half an inch, and have the standing target sticking some vital parts such as the head to the hole. The appropriate comparison is the closed door. You can't shoot through a closed door. It grants full cover and blocks lines of effect. By RAW being prone doesn't help at all. By real life calculation you need to stick your hand to the wall to get a halfway good angle and it won't be enough if the wall is too large. By RAI you will get a 'nope'.

Now if you could address those points instead of ignoring them, you might have a chance at being taken seriously. But the full caps doesn't help.

As pure proof of concept, though, would you allow a fireball to be placed through an arrow slit? Let's say the enemy inside is not actually at the arrow slit, but just next to it, behind total cover. Could a Mage cast fireball through the slit, exploding inside and offering no cover bonus to the reflex save?

I agree about the tiny opening. It just isn't happening. What if the opening is as big as it can get without letting the fighter escape?

[RulesJD]

Okay, that is kinda useless then isn't it? The text of contingency reads:


So even if it is ruled that you can target yourself with WoF (it says a space you can see, not a creature, so RAW it can't), you are now trapped inside a small enclosed space with a grappling fighter, or alternately, the fighter sits outside with a bow waiting for the wall to drop while putting himself outside your spell range, but inside the range of his bow because he outranges the wizard. I'm not seeing how contingency is helping here.

Sorry, someone else wrote Contingency -> WoF

1. You can't use WoF with Contingency. It has to be able to "target" the caster, which WoF can't do.

2. However, Contingency -> Resilient Sphere works just dandy "The sphere is weightless and just large enough to contain the creature or object inside."

[RulesJD]

And that point has just as much cover than the fighter. You can't target it either. There is a wall of force in the way.


The appropriate comparison is not an arrow slit. Arrow slits as 3/4 cover are vertical, definitely larger than half an inch, and have the standing target sticking some vital parts such as the head to the hole. The appropriate comparison is the closed door. You can't shoot through a closed door. It grants full cover and blocks lines of effect. By RAW being prone doesn't help at all. By real life calculation you need to stick your hand to the wall to get a halfway good angle and it won't be enough if the wall is too large. By RAI you will get a 'nope'.

Now if you could address those points instead of ignoring them, you might have a chance at being taken seriously. But the full caps doesn't help.

Sweet jebus for all that is good in this world read the prior post.

No, the proper comparison is not a closed door. The proper comparison is a door that is open enough to have 1/2 inch of space.

Hard to shoot through? Yes, absolutely. 1/2 inch MOA from even (lets say 30ft) away is no easy task...but literally everyone can do it when it comes to the requirements of the Fireball spell (or MM).

How do I know this? Because there is a "streak of light" going from behind that 1/2 inch gap that your eyeball's iris is aimed directly at. That's literally how you can see it. Because your eye is accurate enough to focus and aim at that point in space.

Fun fact, that's also the same requirements for aiming the Fireball spell. Can I see the point in space within 150ft? Yes. Is there anything between me and it? No. Blam, spell works. You don't like it, but you didn't write the rules. The WoF (like the poster above me points out) might be between the caster and the Fighter, but it is NOT between the Fighter and where the Fireball would explode.

NOR is the WoF between the Wizard and the point in space (just beyond that 1/2 inch gap) where it wants to detonate the Fireball.

Tough luck, you're wrong. Again.

[smcmike]

No, the proper comparison is not a closed door. The proper comparison is a door that is open enough to have 1/2 inch of space..

There is a half inch of space under many interior doors. Check it out. Now, can you actually see any space beyond the door through that gap from 30' away?

Or, open a door half an inch. Now walk back 30'. Can you see the interior space? Now move a bit to the side. Can you still see inside?

[Jakinbandw]

Sorry, someone else wrote Contingency -> WoF

1. You can't use WoF with Contingency. It has to be able to "target" the caster, which WoF can't do.

2. However, Contingency -> Resilient Sphere works just dandy "The sphere is weightless and just large enough to contain the creature or object inside."

Cool, but now you have a fighter on the outside with a readed action to thump you when the spell drops, or walking out of range of your spells.

(I am aware that you can drop concentration on the Wizards turn, however action surge)

You have yet to sell me on this plan.

[edit] Also all the wizard can do is buff himself as you are explicitly forbidden from casting any spells though resilient sphere.

[mgshamster]

There is a half inch of space under many interior doors. Check it out. Now, can you actually see any space beyond the door through that gap from 30' away?

Like this one:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/d-illustration-white-closed-door-two-lamps-each-side-55852544.jpg

[Gwendol]

Sweet jebus for all that is good in this world read the prior post.

How do I know this? Because there is a "streak of light" going from behind that 1/2 inch gap that your eyeball's iris is aimed directly at. That's literally how you can see it. Because your eye is accurate enough to focus and aim at that point in space.

Though luck, you're wrong. Again.

Only, it's not since the door in question is closed, is invisible, and you claim to have a clear path to the floor beyond the 1/2" gap at the bottom.

It would be nice if you stopped ignoring what people are trying to explain instead of going creative with the fonts.

[Cazero]

As pure proof of concept, though, would you allow a fireball to be placed through an arrow slit? Let's say the enemy inside is not actually at the arrow slit, but just next to it, behind total cover. Could a Mage cast fireball through the slit, exploding inside and offering no cover bonus to the reflex save?
I would allow an attack roll to do that. On a fail, the fireball explodes on the wrong side.


Sweet jebus for all that is good in this world read the prior post.

No, the proper comparison is not a closed door. The proper comparison is a door that is open enough to have 1/2 inch of space.
Right. A closed interior door. With half an inch of space under it. Exactly like your wall of force.


Hard to shoot through? Yes, absolutely. 1/2 inch MOA from even (lets say 30ft) away is no easy task...but literally everyone can do it when it comes to the requirements of the Fireball spell (or MM).
The requirements of the fireball spell assume that kind of accuracy can be glossed over when you fill a huge sphere with fire. And the fire streak is probably wider than half an inch (most things noticeable in combat are), so it would simply explode on the outside.


How do I know this? Because there is a "streak of light" going from behind that 1/2 inch gap that your eyeball's iris is aimed directly at. That's literally how you can see it. Because your eye is accurate enough to focus and aim at that point in space.
No, your eye is not accurate enough for that. See picture of a closed door above. Making the door transparent doesn't help. If you want to hit the ground behind the door, you need to be very, very close to it.

[RulesJD]

There is a half inch of space under many interior doors. Check it out. Now, can you actually see any space beyond the door through that gap from 30' away?

Or, open a door half an inch. Now walk back 30'. Can you see the interior space? Now move a bit to the side. Can you still see inside?

Yes, I can. See that light shinning through the bottom of the door or around the crack as it's open? It gets even easier when you get down on your belly.

So...congrats on proving yourself wrong? The only time you can't is when the door has a bumper on the bottom, in which case it isn't a 1/2 gap.

Alternatively, READ THE PRIOR POSTS.

As was stated numerous times, you can make the gap 2-3 inches and it doesn't change anything besides making it more obvious that there is a gap to see through. 1/2 inch is the default because it is the smallest size we know we can fit spells through via Forcecage. Making it a 3 inch gap changes preciously nothing because the Fighter still can't get out but you can EASILY see underneath.

[RulesJD]

I would allow an attack roll to do that. On a fail, the fireball explodes on the wrong side.


*snip*

You'll have some credibility to this argument when you stop improvising rules that don't exist. Until then, your opinions are useless as they have no bearing by RAW (in fact, they are directly contradicted by RAW).

[JNAProductions]

RulesJD, you might have RAW on your side. You don't have RAI. You don't have RACS. You don't have any reasonable DM on your side.

[Socratov]

This whole banging on and on about he half inch gap and arrow slits is silly. It's silly from a RAW point of view, it's certainly silly from a RAI point of view and any sane DM would laugh and probably make you roll A: the check for detecting that slit (WOF is invisible after all, do you know where precisely that gap is?), then for hitting it (let's be fair here, your wizard won't exactly be a MLB pitcher, now will he?), and then the fighter get to maybe roll a ref save. I'm not confident the fighter will lose a lot of sleep over it.

[Cazero]

Yes, I can. See that light shinning through the bottom of the door or around the crack as it's open? It gets even easier when you get down on your belly.
How does seeing some light that litteraly radiates out provide any indication on your ability to see in?


As was stated numerous times, you can make the gap 2-3 inches and it doesn't change anything besides making it more obvious that there is a gap to see through. 1/2 inch is the default because it is the smallest size we know we can fit spells through via Forcecage.
Again with that flawed forcecage example. Forcecage is a grid with hundreds of holes and doesn't cover half the blocked surface.


Making it a 3 inch gap changes preciously nothing because the Fighter still can't get out but you can EASILY see underneath.
Making it a 3 inch gap allow you to shoot through the hole from about two feet. It's still a very, very small hole and it still grants full cover.


You'll have some credibility to this argument when you stop improvising rules that don't exist. Until then, your opinions are useless as they have no bearing by RAW (in fact, they are directly contradicted by RAW).
Considering you are improvising the rule that allows to shoot below specific types of total cover by being prone... Grats on being an hypocrite?

[RulesJD]

RulesJD, you might have RAW on your side. You don't have RAI. You don't have RACS. You don't have any reasonable DM on your side.

And?

This is a whiteroom analysis, not a "Well, that may be true but how I would rule it is..."

RAI and RACS wouldn't care about a Fighter 20 vs Wizard 10 because it's clearly never intended to happen. So there ya go, RAW is what we fall back on.

[smcmike]

Yes, I can. See that light shinning through the bottom of the door or around the crack as it's open? It gets even easier when you get down on your belly.

So...congrats on proving yourself wrong? The only time you can't is when the door has a bumper on the bottom, in which case it isn't a 1/2 gap.


Light bounces off the floor. If it is shining AROUND the crack, you are seeing reflected light, and do not have line of sight.



Alternatively, READ THE PRIOR POSTS.


Please stop. You are being rude, and, as I'm about to point out, I partially agree with you, so it gives me no pleasure to say so.



As was stated numerous times, you can make the gap 2-3 inches and it doesn't change anything besides making it more obvious that there is a gap to see through. 1/2 inch is the default because it is the smallest size we know we can fit spells through via Forcecage. Making it a 3 inch gap changes preciously nothing because the Fighter still can't get out but you can EASILY see underneath.

This was stated numerous times BY ME, but thanks for pointing it out.

[JNAProductions]

Except the very RAW of 5E says that the DM has power. In a best-case scenario, we'd get a totally neutral arbitrator to say how to resolve the Fireball under a Wall of Force. Failing that, it makes sense to treat it like a democracy.

[mgshamster]

I would allow an attack roll to do that. On a fail, the fireball explodes on the wrong side.


Right. A closed interior door. With half an inch of space under it. Exactly like your wall of force.


The requirements of the fireball spell assume that kind of accuracy can be glossed over when you fill a huge sphere with fire. And the fire streak is probably wider than half an inch (most things noticeable in combat are), so it would simply explode on the outside.


No, your eye is not accurate enough for that. See picture of a closed door above. Making the door transparent doesn't help. If you want to hit the ground behind the door, you need to be very, very close to it.

Here's a fun twist - try finding the gap when the wall is invisible.

Like in this photo. (http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/businessman-leaning-invisible-wall-17609216.jpg)

(Sorry, posting from phone; can't get the image to be a decent size for forum posts).

[Jakinbandw]

You'll have some credibility to this argument when you stop improvising rules that don't exist. Until then, your opinions are useless as they have no bearing by RAW (in fact, they are directly contradicted by RAW).

I'm actually a bit confused by your plan anyway, by my rough calculations even if you pulled this off, you're still only dealing an average of 185 damage over 7 turns. That isn't even enough to kill a champion fighter before it has it's regeneration and second wind and such. Even if you pull this off, you run out of spells and don't even have enough damage on the table to kill him.

[RulesJD]

How does seeing some light that litteraly radiates out provide any indication on your ability to see in?


Again with that flawed forcecage example. Forcecage is a grid with hundreds of holes and doesn't cover half the blocked surface.


Making it a 3 inch gap allow you to shoot through the hole from about two feet. It's still a very, very small hole and it still grants full cover.


Considering you are improvising the rule that allows to shoot below specific types of total cover by being prone... Grats on being an hypocrite?

I'm shooting nothing, as I'm not making an attack roll. I'm seeing a space in the world that has nothing physical between me and it, as you've finally now admitted.

Also, wow. I'm really sorry about your door eyesight that you can only see through a 3 inch gap from 2 feet away while prone. Some back of the napkin math (since I only need to see a point in space and not the ground behind it) for seeing a point 1/2 inch (WoF itself is 1/4 inch thick so another 1/4 inch detonation point is sufficient) beyond a 3 inch gap...I could be on a ladder and still tag it from 30ft away.

[Jakinbandw]

I'm shooting nothing, as I'm not making an attack roll. I'm seeing a space in the world that has nothing physical between me and it, as you've finally now admitted.

Also, wow. I'm really sorry about your door eyesight that you can only see through a 3 inch gap from 2 feet away while prone. Some back of the napkin math (since I only need to see a point in space and not the ground behind it) for seeing a point 1/2 inch (WoF itself is 1/4 inch thick so another 1/4 inch detonation point is sufficient) beyond a 3 inch gap...I could be on a ladder and still tag it from 30ft away.

I'm still not seeing how your plan kills the fighter. the fireballs just don't do enough damage.

[Gwendol]

You still can't actually see the gap, nor do you have a clear path.

[RulesJD]

I'm actually a bit confused by your plan anyway, by my rough calculations even if you pulled this off, you're still only dealing an average of 185 damage over 7 turns. That isn't even enough to kill a champion fighter before it has it's regeneration and second wind and such. Even if you pull this off, you run out of spells and don't even have enough damage on the table to kill him.

A fair concern, but I'd be relying on Magic Missile (since he has to be standing on the ground) or Shatter (to destroy the equipment he would try to stand on like a helmet). MM gives you more bang for your buck against a single target, it's also why I originally preferred an Evocation Wizard (level 1 MM = 25.5 average damage)

If it's against a Champion Fighter, then I'd switch to Acid Splash to eventually wear it down to 1/2 health (~6-12 Acid/turn because of Potent Cantrip), then start dropping MMs. The MMs burn through his Regen and then some, especially when starting to upcast.

Not sure what the plan is for the Bladesinger. That's someone else's post. My guess would be something roughly similar but I could be wrong.

[Socratov]

I'm still not seeing how your plan kills the fighter. the fireballs just don't do enough damage.

well, that coupled with the fact that everyone seems to forget that a wall of force is invisible and that in this case a few inches difference in where it's located relative to where you think it's located will make a huge difference between a hit and a miss. Unless there is a reason why you would be able to see clearly where the WOF ends.

From a distance...

[JNAProductions]

Magic Missile no longer turns corners. It's a straight line.

If you can Acid Splash or Shatter the Fighter, he can shoot you.

[RulesJD]

You still can't actually see the gap, nor do you have a clear path.

Please, see an eye doctor if you can't see a point in space behind a 3 inch gap at 3ft away.

[JNAProductions]

You're 3' away? Then you're in the blast radius.

[RulesJD]

Magic Missile no longer turns corners. It's a straight line.

If you can Acid Splash or Shatter the Fighter, he can shoot you.

I've always agreed he can shoot me when using MM and Acid Splash (not Shatter but that's only if he wants to stand on his helmet anyways), but just once (Readied Action) at Disadvantage because of Rope Trick/Mold Earth. Bladesinger build would have the advantage there to be sure.

[Gwendol]

Please, see an eye doctor if you can't see a point in space behind a 3 inch gap at 3ft away.

You can see the gap since the WoF is invisible. And magic missile can't be targeted in this case as the path will be obstructed.

[RulesJD]

You're 3' away? Then you're in the blast radius.

I'm not, I'm merely showing how foolish his argument is.

It's also kind of fun because as you've pointed out earlier, it doesn't really matter what we has humans can do, by RAW it works whether he can see that gap or not.

[Jakinbandw]

A fair concern, but I'd be relying on Magic Missile (since he has to be standing on the ground) or Shatter (to destroy the equipment he would try to stand on like a helmet). MM gives you more bang for your buck against a single target, it's also why I originally preferred an Evocation Wizard (level 1 MM = 25.5 average damage)

If it's against a Champion Fighter, then I'd switch to Acid Splash to eventually wear it down to 1/2 health (~6-12 Acid/turn because of Potent Cantrip), then start dropping MMs. The MMs burn through his Regen and then some, especially when starting to upcast.

Not sure what the plan is for the Bladesinger. That's someone else's post. My guess would be something roughly similar but I could be wrong.

Cool. Fighter stands on his helmet above where you can see him. Now you can't cast any spells that target him because you need clear line of sight and the target can't be in full cover. You're only able to argue the fireball because you're targeting the ground. The fighter isn't even in full cover however because you literally can't draw a line from yourself to him at all. Any part of him. Because he stands on his helmet out of your line of sight.

Still not sure how you win.

[JNAProductions]

Except that doesn't add up. Sure, you can see it from 3' away, but then you're hurting yourself. YOu have to be able to see it from at least 21' away, which is a considerably different story. For instance, I can read a book from 3' away. I can't from 21'.

And again-this is a situation where the RAW breaks down. You NEED DM adjudication for the world to make sense.

[smcmike]

I've always agreed he can shoot me when using MM and Acid Splash (not Shatter but that's only if he wants to stand on his helmet anyways), but just once (Readied Action) at Disadvantage because of Rope Trick/Mold Earth. Bladesinger build would have the advantage there to be sure.

If he can shoot you one time every time you acid splash him, are you really winning?

You're doing 6-12 damage/round. Isn't he doing way more, even with one shot?

[Jakinbandw]

I've always agreed he can shoot me when using MM and Acid Splash (not Shatter but that's only if he wants to stand on his helmet anyways), but just once (Readied Action) at Disadvantage because of Rope Trick/Mold Earth. Bladesinger build would have the advantage there to be sure.

cool, fighter readies action: jump. When you attempt to cast the spell, he jumps and your spell fizzles because it doesn't have line of sight. Now he just waits for wall of force to drop.

[Gwendol]

I'm not, I'm merely showing how foolish his argument is.

It's also kind of fun because as you've pointed out earlier, it doesn't really matter what we has humans can do, by RAW it works whether he can see that gap or not.

I don't think I'm the one making a foolish argument.

[Socratov]

I'm not, I'm merely showing how foolish his argument is.

It's also kind of fun because as you've pointed out earlier, it doesn't really matter what we has humans can do, by RAW it works whether he can see that gap or not.

I have remarked it twice now, and will try a third:

if the WOF is invisible, and the wizard is standing a couple of feet away to avoid the spell he's throwing at the fighter, how can the wizard see the actual gap between the WOF and the ground. Unless the WOF is not invisible (which the spell specifically says it is) the Wizard can't see it. If the wizard can't see it, he can't shoot through it.

[smcmike]

I'm not, I'm merely showing how foolish his argument is.

It's also kind of fun because as you've pointed out earlier, it doesn't really matter what we has humans can do, by RAW it works whether he can see that gap or not.

Interesting. So, for example:

DM: you come into an open space. The Bad Guy is standing 60' away.
PC: I hit him with a scorching ray.
DM: It hits an invisible barrier
PC: Must be a wall of force. I hit him with a fireball.
DM: say what?
PC: I aim it over the wall of force so the area of effect burns him.
DM: you don't know where the top of the wall of force is.
PC: Yeah, but it has a top, right?
DM: yeah
PC: well, then, I aim over it, to precisely the lowest point I can aim at without hitting it.
DM: but you can't see it
PC: yeah, but I have line of sight and line of effect to the point I'm aiming at, right?
DM: .....


My point is that being able to legally target a spot is necessary, but not always sufficient. Sometimes you may not be able to determine what the spot is, at which point the DM must get involved. An invisible barrier is a great example of such a situation.

[Gwendol]

Or in other words: you need to be able to determine the clear path, from any other that is blocked. In this case the wizard can't.

[AvatarVecna]

Giving the benefit of the doubt: let's assume the Fireball's AoE isn't hindered by the WoF; the Fighter doesn't get cover from it, because the Fireball is centered where the Wizard can see under the gap. Even using all your level 3+ slots for Fireball, as an Evoker, without the Fighter having cover, you can't deal enough damage to kill the Fighter once you factor in saving throws (not to mention Indomitable, Survivor Regen, and Second Wind).

Ah, but Magic Missiles are even more powerful, and don't permit a save! True enough, but they have no AoE, and do not turn corners, so you need line of effect...which you won't get; either you'll have an angle on the Fighter by hugging the ground, only for the Fighter's readied action to let him jump and deny you line of effect, or you'll have to stick your hand under the gap to get a finger pointing at the Fighter, at which point we get to see the amusing sight of a wizard being grappled by the tip of his finger sticking under an invisible door.

[AvatarVecna]

For what it's worth, I think the Evoker in this fight shouldn't be immediately disallowed from shooting through the crack just because the WoF is invisible...but not because they can just change their target point until they're told it's past the WoF. In this example...


Interesting. So, for example:

DM: you come into an open space. The Bad Guy is standing 60' away.
PC: I hit him with a scorching ray.
DM: It hits an invisible barrier
PC: Must be a wall of force. I hit him with a fireball.
DM: say what?
PC: I aim it over the wall of force so the area of effect burns him.
DM: you don't know where the top of the wall of force is.
PC: Yeah, but it has a top, right?
DM: yeah
PC: well, then, I aim over it, to precisely the lowest point I can aim at without hitting it.
DM: but you can't see it
PC: yeah, but I have line of sight and line of effect to the point I'm aiming at, right?
DM: .....


My point is that being able to legally target a spot is necessary, but not always sufficient. Sometimes you may not be able to determine what the spot is, at which point the DM must get involved. An invisible barrier is a great example of such a situation.

...I'd say it doesn't work; tell me where you're targeting the spell, and when you actually cast it; if it passes the WoF, I'll tell you, but otherwise it hits the WoF.

The reason the Evoker in this fight with the hemispherical WoF could potentially get under the crack despite not seeing the edge of the WoF is because that Wizard is the one that cast it; they know where the edge is, even if they can't necessarily see it.

[smcmike]

For what it's worth, I think the Evoker in this fight shouldn't be immediately disallowed from shooting through the crack just because the WoF is invisible...but not because they can just change their target point until they're told it's past the WoF. In this example...



...I'd say it doesn't work; tell me where you're targeting the spell, and when you actually cast it; if it passes the WoF, I'll tell you, but otherwise it hits the WoF.

The reason the Evoker in this fight with the hemispherical WoF could potentially get under the crack despite not seeing the edge of the WoF is because that Wizard is the one that cast it; they know where the edge is, even if they can't necessarily see it.

I agree that it's a different case, I was just pointing to where I thought JD's reasoning ended up, and would argue that the precision of his knowledge for targeting purposes is not fully defined.

[Gwendol]

For what it's worth, I think the Evoker in this fight shouldn't be immediately disallowed from shooting through the crack just because the WoF is invisible...but not because they can just change their target point until they're told it's past the WoF. In this example...



...I'd say it doesn't work; tell me where you're targeting the spell, and when you actually cast it; if it passes the WoF, I'll tell you, but otherwise it hits the WoF.

The reason the Evoker in this fight with the hemispherical WoF could potentially get under the crack despite not seeing the edge of the WoF is because that Wizard is the one that cast it; they know where the edge is, even if they can't necessarily see it.

Sort of. They know the center of the dome, that being the target of the WoF, and the radius. Still can't see the edge.

[RulesJD]

You can see the gap since the WoF is invisible. And magic missile can't be targeted in this case as the path will be obstructed.

The Wizard doesn't need to see the "gap", the Wizard needs to see the point in space below the lower edge of the WoF, which they can. If the Wizard was, let's say, throwing a stone or Firebolt, then he would need to make the attack roll which would take into account the small space and possbility of hitting the lower edge of the WoF.

But Fireball, nor any of the other rules, require such a thing. Because the Wizard is merely looking at a point in space that he has an unobstructed line to, however narrow that line may be.

[RulesJD]

*snip*
The reason the Evoker in this fight with the hemispherical WoF could potentially get under the crack despite not seeing the edge of the WoF is because that Wizard is the one that cast it; they know where the edge is, even if they can't necessarily see it.

1. Thank you for pointing out the monumentally obvious. This isn't an invisible wall that the Wizard didn't know about, it's a spell they cast themselves, at an exact known point in space with exact parameters (hovering off the ground such that there is a 1/2 inch gap at the bottom). See previous post that the Wizard needs to see the point in space that exists below the WoF, not the WoF itself.

2. There is precisely zero rules to support any idea that the Wizard cannot see the point in space that exists below the WoF and 1/4 inch beyond the WoF. I'm sorry you all don't like that, but you want RAW and whiteroom = RAW. Find a rule that says otherwise and we can have a cogent conversation. Otherwise you're just being sore losers using improvised rules.

3. I liked the creative use of a helmet, but it's already been disregarded above due to Shatter specifically damaging non-carried equipment.

4. I also liked the creative use of Ready Action -> Jump (which has some actual support by RAW).

However, RAW also eliminates it. By RAW, Readied Actions happen after the trigger condition. So you can certain Jump when MM is cast, but by RAW the bolts have already hit the target. Creative thought, but RAW doesn't support it. This whole debate came up in earlier discussions about Ready Action -> Dispel being a poor man's Counterspell, where it was clearly proven not to work due to how Readied Actions work.

[mgshamster]

2. There is precisely zero rules to support any idea that the Wizard cannot see the point in space that exists below the WoF and 1/4 inch beyond the WoF. I'm sorry you all don't like that, but you want RAW and whiteroom = RAW. Find a rule that says otherwise and we can have a cogent conversation. Otherwise you're just being sore losers using improvised rules.

The rules dont say what you can't do, they say what you can do.

So you have to find the rule that says you can do this, or you're just improvising the rules, exactly as you're accusing others of doing.

Calling people sore losers because you cannot support your own argument doesn't mean you win the argument. Being a bully and yelling your argument louder doesn't mean you win the argument. Simply stating things as fact with no support doesn't mean you win the argument. Accusing others of doing the exact same thing you are doesn't mean you win the argument, it means you're a hypocrite.

You've declared things as fact with no support from RAW and declared it RAW. Then you declare others as not following RAW. It doesn't work like that, sorry if you don't like it.

What this situation is is something that requires a GM ruling - something rules lawyers tend to hate, as they cannot point to the rules to prove themselves right. Which is probably why you're yelling so much in this thread - to get around the fact that you don't have an explicit rule to point to which can prove you right.

[AvatarVecna]

The rules dont say what you can't do, they say what you can do.

So you have to find the rule that says you can do this, or you're just improvising the rules, exactly as you're accusing others of doing.

Calling people sore losers because you cannot support your own argument doesn't mean you win the argument. Being a bully and yelling your argument louder doesn't mean you win the argument. Simply stating things as fact with no support doesn't mean you win the argument. Accusing others of doing the exact same thing you are doesn't mean you win the argument, it means you're a hypocrite.

You've declared things as fact with no support from RAW and declared it RAW. Then you declare others as not following RAW. It doesn't work like that, sorry if you don't like it.

What this situation is is something that requires a GM ruling - something rules lawyers tend to hate, as they cannot point to the rules to prove themselves right. Which is probably why you're yelling so much in this thread - to get around the fact that you don't have an explicit rule to point to which can prove you right.

Currently, he's talking about whether he can see the point (Line Of Sight), which is totally valid: Wall Of Force is invisible, so the Wizard has Line Of Sight on everything involved here, including the Fighter. Whether he has Line Of Effect or not is up for debate.

[smcmike]

2. There is precisely zero rules to support any idea that the Wizard cannot see the point in space that exists below the WoF and 1/4 inch beyond the WoF.


See now, this is the argument that made me bring in the WoF that the wizard encounters, rather than casting himself. In both cases, you are dealing with a point in space that the wizard is able to see. The question is whether he is able to precisely target that point past a barrier that he cannot see without hitting that barrier - and how much tolerance for avoiding that barrier he has.

Assuming the same wall of force, cast by someone else, how do you see it playing out?

[Jakinbandw]

1. Thank you for pointing out the monumentally obvious. This isn't an invisible wall that the Wizard didn't know about, it's a spell they cast themselves, at an exact known point in space with exact parameters (hovering off the ground such that there is a 1/2 inch gap at the bottom). See previous post that the Wizard needs to see the point in space that exists below the WoF, not the WoF itself.

2. There is precisely zero rules to support any idea that the Wizard cannot see the point in space that exists below the WoF and 1/4 inch beyond the WoF. I'm sorry you all don't like that, but you want RAW and whiteroom = RAW. Find a rule that says otherwise and we can have a cogent conversation. Otherwise you're just being sore losers using improvised rules.

3. I liked the creative use of a helmet, but it's already been disregarded above due to Shatter specifically damaging non-carried equipment.

4. I also liked the creative use of Ready Action -> Jump (which has some actual support by RAW).

However, RAW also eliminates it. By RAW, Readied Actions happen after the trigger condition. So you can certain Jump when MM is cast, but by RAW the bolts have already hit the target. Creative thought, but RAW doesn't support it. This whole debate came up in earlier discussions about Ready Action -> Dispel being a poor man's Counterspell, where it was clearly proven not to work due to how Readied Actions work.

You just set it to trigger "When the mage is about to try to line up his spell" or, when targeted. Then depending on the wording, the mage goes to target the wizard but can't becuase he just jump, wasting his turn, or the spell goes off, but there is no longer line of effect, and the spell fizzles. Alternately, the fighter just kicks a bit of dirt into the opening (half an inch isn't much easily within one action) instead of jumping because that way there is no question about when the fighter comes down, and line of effect is broken. The wizard can stand up (half it's movement) and try somewhere else, but even if the fighter takes a hit or two, it won't take long to scuff up the dirt around the whole wall of force.

The long and the short of it, is that we can go back and forth on this for days, but as we do, we push the rules further and further from what the intent is.

Also I was looking at this whole cover section and this is how it reads:


A target with 3/4 cover has a +5 advantage to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has 3/4 cover if about 3/4 of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.

Now that wording is interesting. 3/4 cover is covering about 3/4s of the body, and then it gives three examples that might count cast full cover depending on the circumstance.

from wikipedia we learn:

Slits "of the height of a man and about a palm's width on the outside" allowed defenders to shoot bows and scorpions (an ancient siege engine) from within the city walls
this gives us an idea why. you could see from head to toe of a man a half foot (to four inches) across. This is about a third of a persons profile from the side, which is how they would be shooting.

There is a massive difference between being able to see half of a person, and being only able to see a small part of his boots. the difference being the second only lets you see about 95% of the body, and nothing critical.

Hopefully that puts the 3/4s cover and arrow slit debate to rest.

[edit]
And even then!

I ran the numbers on magic missile. average damage? 315. Sounds like enough to kill the fighter when he is at half health right? Except this damage happens piecemeal. over the time you are using it, AvatarVecna regenerates 180 health. All of a sudden, it's much closer. I'm seeing you've only managed to do 135 damage to the fighter. That's still enough to kill him from his half health (122). Except for one little thing called second wind. Now the champion can heal 1d10+20 health, which puts him out of your average damage range by a reasonable 10 or so points of health over your expected damage.

Of course for this we are assuming that the wizard knows the exact hp of the fighter, and that the fighter doesn't have a single health potion, and that he doesn't actually do anything.

Basically, Even giving the wizard everything, they still run out of spells before the fighter runs out of health.

[Sigreid]

Why couldn't the canny fighter just use his cloak or shield, tossed on the ground for the cloak or held up against the wall and touching the ground to break line of sight/effect to the inside of the force wall?

[MaxWilson]

Why couldn't the canny fighter just use his cloak or shield, tossed on the ground for the cloak or held up against the wall and touching the ground to break line of sight/effect to the inside of the force wall?

Technically, a fully armored fighter is going to be covered in metal already. If he just puts his cloak over his head so the wizard can't see his eyeslit, he's now got total cover and is invulnerable to all the wizard's spells.

[Crgaston]

Technically, a fully armored fighter is going to be covered in metal already. If he just puts his cloak over his head so the wizard can't see his eyeslit, he's now got total cover and is invulnerable to all the wizard's spells.
I've been following this abomination of an argument since it began. And...

Lofl... MaxWilson wins it.

"Neener neener you can't see me!" Is TOTALLY RAW!

[Gwendol]

The Wizard doesn't need to see the "gap", the Wizard needs to see the point in space below the lower edge of the WoF, which they can. If the Wizard was, let's say, throwing a stone or Firebolt, then he would need to make the attack roll which would take into account the small space and possbility of hitting the lower edge of the WoF.

But Fireball, nor any of the other rules, require such a thing. Because the Wizard is merely looking at a point in space that he has an unobstructed line to, however narrow that line may be.

You are talking about line of sight, which the wizard has. I'm (still) saying that the wizard does not have an unobstructed path to the point in space he chooses. The wizard can lie flat on his belly and hope he has it, but he has no way of knowing which path is free from that which will encounter cover.
In your next post you claim the wizard knows exactly where the edge of the WoF is because he cast it. That is a very weak argument with no support whatsoever. The wizard has a very good idea of where it is, yes, but that's it.

[Xetheral]

In your next post you claim the wizard knows exactly where the edge of the WoF is because he cast it. That is a very weak argument with no support whatsoever. The wizard has a very good idea of where it is, yes, but that's it.

Particularly since the ground is highly unlikely to be level to within half an inch (or even a few inches) tolerance. Assuming the wizard managed to put the WoF exactly half an inch above the ground at the center (and it's not clear that any spells can be targeted that precisely), uneven ground will ensure that around parts of the circumference of the dome there isn't any gap at all... and the wizard won't know which parts are which.

[JoeJ]

Technically, a fully armored fighter is going to be covered in metal already. If he just puts his cloak over his head so the wizard can't see his eyeslit, he's now got total cover and is invulnerable to all the wizard's spells.

Unless he's a Dex based fighter, in which case he should take his armor off. Naked = invisible (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0025.html), right?

[Occasional Sage]

If finding the WoF edge is such an issue, a lit torch and perhaps a minor wind-generating spell would fix this. Watch where the smoke needs to deflect, and where it continues under the wall, and presto.

[Gwendol]

Particularly since the ground is highly unlikely to be level to within half an inch (or even a few inches) tolerance. Assuming the wizard managed to put the WoF exactly half an inch above the ground at the center (and it's not clear that any spells can be targeted that precisely), uneven ground will ensure that around parts of the circumference of the dome there isn't any gap at all... and the wizard won't know which parts are which.

Yeah, I made that argument some ten pages back to show that outside some very specific circumstances the WoF strategy is not generally applicable. Half an inch from the ground at the center (where the wizard is targeting the half dome) means very little 10' out in natural environments. It is very likely the fighter will find a gap wide enough to wiggle out, or find an area behind which he really does have complete cover.

However, beside all of this we still don't see any evidence of the wizard actually winning. He doesn't have enough fireballs.

[Gwendol]

If finding the WoF edge is such an issue, a lit torch and perhaps a minor wind-generating spell would fix this. Watch where the smoke needs to deflect, and where it continues under the wall, and presto.

It's the fact that the wizard needs to determine a clear path through a half-inch invisible opening, some 20' away. The torch will not do much good, unless the wizard can persuade the fighter to help out?

[Occasional Sage]

It's the fact that the wizard needs to determine a clear path through a half-inch invisible opening, some 20' away. The torch will not do much good, unless the wizard can persuade the fighter to help out?

Whatever the shape of the WoF, simply toss the torch to hit the wall near the ground. It will likely land close enough for the smoke to be useful, or else certainly close enough for a small breeze to make it so.

Spend a round and end the argument? Yes, please!

[georgie_leech]

Whatever the shape of the WoF, simply toss the torch to hit the wall near the ground. It will likely land close enough for the smoke to be useful, or else certainly close enough for a small breeze to make it so.

Spend a round round relying on convenient weather conditions and the ability to detect minor perturbances in smoke formations and end the argument? Yes, please!

Fixed that for you. I'm not at all sure that this tells us much about where the gap is. After all, the torch bigger than half an inch, generally. Most if not all of the smoke would be going over the WoF anyway.

[Occasional Sage]

Fixed that for you. I'm not at all sure that this tells us much about where the gap is. After all, the torch bigger than half an inch, generally. Most if not all of the smoke would be going over the WoF anyway.

Hm, fair point.

A viscous liquid perhaps?

[Shaofoo]

Hm, fair point.

A viscous liquid perhaps?

The biggest problem is that this is all DM ruling at this point. There is no surefire way to know where the gap truly is by the rules. And just as you can improvise ways to know where the gap is the Fighter can find out ways to defeat your gap with the same ingenuity as was shown.

If anything requires a DM ruling to resolve then there can't be any real resolution because anything can happen for any reason and all be valid because the DM's word is law.

[wunderkid]

cool, fighter readies action: jump. When you attempt to cast the spell, he jumps and your spell fizzles because it doesn't have line of sight. Now he just waits for wall of force to drop.

Just wanted to point out readying an action doesn't work like that.

The readied action always takes place after the trigger. This is why mage slayer doesn't work against any teleportation spell.

There's almost no trigger you could set to jump in time with a spell being cast. You can't interrupt people mid action unless specifically stated (for example with counterspell). For good reasons as stuff like that can just get insane with people trying to pimp it.

P193
"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round"

[Jakinbandw]

P193
"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round"

Yes, but that only happens with the feat because it states when a spell is cast. The triggering action is the casting of a spell. In my wording the triggering action is the mage getting ready to cast the spell, so it happens before the spell is cast. Due to my wording it interrupts the mages action.

[RulesJD]

Yes, but that only happens with the feat because it states when a spell is cast. The triggering action is the casting of a spell. In my wording the triggering action is the mage getting ready to cast the spell, so it happens before the spell is cast. Due to my wording it interrupts the mages action.

1. No, it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for you on this one, but Ready Action doesn't work that way, even per your later description. Why?

"First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction."

First time the Fighter jumps, somehow in the space between when the spell is cast and when it instantaneously hits, the Wizard thereafter just fakes casting with their free action, triggers your Readied Action, and poof.

Even getting that pedantic is pointless because Readied Actions just don't work that way. You'd hit your Trigger, Jump, instantly fall back to the ground, Wizard's spell goes off with LoS and LoE

2. Let me say this again for the 100000th time.

THE WIZARD DOESN'T CARE WHERE THE EDGE OF THE WOF IS. HE DOESN'T NEED TO KNOW.

He picks a point in space 1/2 inch above the ground (or 1/4 inch, doesn't really matter) just beyond the edge of the WoF. On his belly, he has LoE. It doesn't matter if the Wizard knows where the edge IS, because he isn't making an attack roll.

Does he have LoS? Yes

Does he have LoE, whether he knows it or not? Yes

Spell goes off.

[Z3ro]

Does he have LoE, whether he knows it or not? Yes

Spell goes off.

What page are you finding the line of effect rules on? I'm looking for them and can't find them; the closest I come is area of effect, but that's not the same thing.

[RulesJD]

What page are you finding the line of effect rules on? I'm looking for them and can't find them; the closest I come is area of effect, but that's not the same thing.

Sorry, colloquial term for the phrase from the PHB. The term itself is used, for example, on pg. 202.

But we're talking about the heading "A Clear Path to the Target" on pg. 204.

[Cybren]

Sorry, colloquial term for the phrase from the PHB. The term itself is used, for example, on pg. 202.

But we're talking about the heading "A Clear Path to the Target" on pg. 204.

But you're repeatedly ignoring that part of having a clear path to a target is knowing where that path is.

[wunderkid]

But you're repeatedly ignoring that part of having a clear path to a target is knowing where that path is.

Why do you have to know where that path is? That's not a prequisite. It simply has to exist. Basically to stop people bouncing spells round corners. But knowing where it is isn't being ignored it just isn't a factor to be considered

[Gwendol]

It is when the obstruction is invisible.

[Jakinbandw]

1. No, it doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for you on this one, but Ready Action doesn't work that way, even per your later description. Why?

"First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction."

First time the Fighter jumps, somehow in the space between when the spell is cast and when it instantaneously hits, the Wizard thereafter just fakes casting with their free action, triggers your Readied Action, and poof.

Even getting that pedantic is pointless because Readied Actions just don't work that way. You'd hit your Trigger, Jump, instantly fall back to the ground, Wizard's spell goes off with LoS and LoE


You'll note that I said that it would work better if the fighter just kicked some dirt instead for that exact reason.

Second, you can't target something in full cover. I proved in an earlier post that the fighter in in the wall of force has full cover, so it really doesn't matter. The wizard can't target him no matter what. The fighter just waits for the spell to end.

Now fireballs or other AoE spells might work if you had a generous GM, but they don't actually do enough damage to kill the fighter.

[Cybren]

Why do you have to know where that path is? That's not a prequisite. It simply has to exist. Basically to stop people bouncing spells round corners. But knowing where it is isn't being ignored it just isn't a factor to be considered
???? because the crux of the argument is that you are specifically aiming at a half inch wide gap, so you have to know where that half inch wide gap is to aim. Because if you were off, your spell would impact on the wall of force?

[mgshamster]

The rules also say that if you target something behind total cover (which the entire area inside this WoF is) and there is an obstruction in the way (the WoF), then the point of origin on an AoE spell is on the near side of the obstruction.

A RAW reading of the rules says you can't ever fire inside a WoF set up like this. The only way to fire in is to set it up so there's 3/4 cover on the inside. Which means the fighter can fire out.

[Cybren]

The rules also say that if you target something behind total cover (which the entire area inside this WoF is) and there is an obstruction in the way (the WoF), then the point of origin on an AoE spell is on the near side of the obstruction.

A RAW reading of the rules says you can't ever fire inside a WoF set up like this. The only way to fire in is to set it up so there's 3/4 cover on the inside. Which means the fighter can fire out.
I agree with this, though there was mention of using other spells or jumping on the wall of force between each spell or something so the fighter has to use a readied action to only get a single attack, but the overall mechanics of how that would play out seem iffy, and depending on the fighter build I'm not sure how that would work. EKs obviously can escape the wof, champions probably still kill you with their regen, and battlemasters could add superiority dice on those single attacks. a tripping attack would probably cost you enough movement that you wouldn't be able to use that kinda shenanigans.

[RulesJD]

But you're repeatedly ignoring that part of having a clear path to a target is knowing where that path is.

Please, show me right now, where the word "knowing" appears anywhere in the rules for spell targeting.

Hint, you're wrong and you won't find it.

Which is good, because there's not way of "knowing" whether the LoE actually exists because there may be an unseen obstruction that you don't know about.

RAW mere requires that there BE a clear path to the target, which there is. Whether the Wizard knows it or not is completely irrelevant. The Wizard says "I cast Fireball at the point in space that I can see which is 1/3 inch above the ground and 25ft (or whatever) in-front of me as I am prone".

There is precisely nothing between the Wizard and the 1/2 inch gap below the WoF, nor the 1/4 inch beyond for the Fireball to detonate (or the MM to hit the feet of the Fighter). The Wizard can see that point in space. TADA, magic.

[RulesJD]

???? because the crux of the argument is that you are specifically aiming at a half inch wide gap, so you have to know where that half inch wide gap is to aim. Because if you were off, your spell would impact on the wall of force?

Which, thanks to RAW, there is precisely 0 chance of happening BECAUSE THERE IS NO ATTACK ROLL FOR FIREBALL OR MAGIC MISSILE. I'm sorry you want to improvise rules so that there should be a test to see if the Wizard can aim to hit the gap, but RAW doesn't require squat to do so.

You'd almost think people know the rules better than you and have thought about this more than you.

[Cybren]

Please, show me right now, where the word "knowing" appears anywhere in the rules for spell targeting.

This has to be the most intellectually dishonest argument I've ever read.

Which, thanks to RAW, there is precisely 0 chance of happening BECAUSE THERE IS NO ATTACK ROLL FOR FIREBALL OR MAGIC MISSILE. I'm sorry you want to improvise rules so that there should be a test to see if the Wizard can aim to hit the gap, but RAW doesn't require squat to do so.

You'd almost think people know the rules better than you and have thought about this more than you.

You don't need an attack roll. Because the entire concept is abstracted in to the cover system. "I target that guy" "You can't he's behind a tree". see how it works? "I target that guy" "you can't, he's inside a wall of force" "well I aim for a half inch wide gap that the wall of force isn't covering!". YOU are the one arguing you are aiming for a specific spot.

[RulesJD]

You'll note that I said that it would work better if the fighter just kicked some dirt instead for that exact reason.

Second, you can't target something in full cover. I proved in an earlier post that the fighter in in the wall of force has full cover, so it really doesn't matter. The wizard can't target him no matter what. The fighter just waits for the spell to end.

Now fireballs or other AoE spells might work if you had a generous GM, but they don't actually do enough damage to kill the fighter.

1. This is a Whiteroom analysis, there is no "dirt" to kick. That's the entire purpose of Whiteroom analysis.

If there is "dirt" to kick, then there is loose dirt which means Mold Earth works. The Fighter will lose that contest every time as the Wizard just fills the WoF with mounds of dirt until the Fighter can't move (or see the creative use of drowning the Fighter which is even more hilarious).

2. THE FIGHTER IS NOT BEHIND FULL COVER. You didn't prove squat. You tried to use Readied Action to improve full cover, which RAW doesn't even remotely support. You have your feet showing, you aren't behind total cover. That's literally the purpose of the gap. If you don't like the fact that 1/2 inch qualifies (it does) then I'll just make the gap large enough until it clearly is (3 inches or so) which still pins the Fighter in completely (Medium size Fighter can only move through a Small/Tiny sized space at best by RAW which requires 2 1/2 feet).

[Jakinbandw]

Which, thanks to RAW, there is precisely 0 chance of happening BECAUSE THERE IS NO ATTACK ROLL FOR FIREBALL OR MAGIC MISSILE. I'm sorry you want to improvise rules so that there should be a test to see if the Wizard can aim to hit the gap, but RAW doesn't require squat to do so.

You'd almost think people know the rules better than you and have thought about this more than you.

You still can't target because the fighter has full cover. Doesn't matter what else you say, the fighter has full cover by RAW and you can't target them as shown in my earlier post.

You may be able to make fireball work, but you can't make any targeted attack spell work.

[RulesJD]

This has to be the most intellectually dishonest argument I've ever read.


You don't need an attack roll. Because the entire concept is abstracted in to the cover system. "I target that guy" "You can't he's behind a tree". see how it works? "I target that guy" "you can't, he's inside a wall of force" "well I aim for a half inch wide gap that the wall of force isn't covering!". YOU are the one arguing you are aiming for a specific spot.

I aim for his feet.

Do I have LoS? yes

Do I have LoE? yes

Is there Full Cover? No, I can see the target and there is no obstruction between myself and the target, because the 1/2 inch gap (or 3 inches, etc) qualifies as only providing 3/4 cover, NOT FULL COVER.

You're still wrong, period. You can keep arguing, and keep being wrong.

[Cybren]

You still can't target because the fighter has full cover. Doesn't matter what else you say, the fighter has full cover by RAW and you can't target them as shown in my earlier post.

You may be able to make fireball work, but you can't make any targeted attack spell work.

The fireball still explodes on the near side of the wall of force, because any space inside it still has full cover. There's no reasonable way to parse the fighter taking damahe from it.

[Cybren]

I aim for his feet.

Do I have LoS? yes

Do I have LoE? yes

Is there Full Cover? No, I can see the target and there is no obstruction between myself and the target, because the 1/2 inch gap (or 3 inches, etc) qualifies as only providing 3/4 cover, NOT FULL COVER.

You're still wrong, period. You can keep arguing, and keep being wrong.

Since when were called shots part of RAW?? This is clearly an area of DM adjudication. You have been begging the question constantly in this thread, but haven't actually presented any evidence in support of your argument

[RulesJD]

You still can't target because the fighter has full cover. Doesn't matter what else you say, the fighter has full cover by RAW and you can't target them as shown in my earlier post.

You may be able to make fireball work, but you can't make any targeted attack spell work.

Quote RAW that gives the Fighter Full Cover from Magic Missile which is not a targeted attack spell.

I have LoS and a clear, unobstructed path to the feet of the Fighter (LoS + LoE + in range = Magic Missile hits).

Ready Action -> Jump doesn't work because it needs both perceivable circumstances and it is resolved AFTER the triggering action, which is an instantaneously (spell duration rules section) hitting Magic Missile.

[RulesJD]

Since when were called shots part of RAW?? This is clearly an area of DM adjudication. You have been begging the question constantly in this thread, but haven't actually presented any evidence in support of your argument

I've provided it numerous times. PHB Spellcasting section. Don't blame me for you being too lazy to read the entire thread.

[mgshamster]

You still can't target because the fighter has full cover. Doesn't matter what else you say, the fighter has full cover by RAW and you can't target them as shown in my earlier post.

You may be able to make fireball work, but you can't make any targeted attack spell work.

The fireball won't even work. He's behind full cover and there's an obstruction, the the Point of Origin happens on the near side of the obstruction.

Even if the wizard is bending down or laying on the ground next to the 1/2" gap, total cover is total cover. There's no way around it by RAW, without a GM ruling. As RulesJD has insistently stated, there is no GM to make a ruling here, so we have to go back to RAW only. RAW does not allow a way around this, no matter how much he makes up rules otherwise. That fireball will go off on the outside of the WoF.

If he wants to fire an AoE to the inside of the WoF, he has to adjust the WoF to 3/4 cover. Once that happens, the fighter can shoot out, killing the wizard in a round or two.

[RulesJD]

The fireball still explodes on the near side of the wall of force, because any space inside it still has full cover. There's no reasonable way to parse the fighter taking damahe from it.

The Fireball explodes at the Point of Impact (RAW). The Point of Impact is inside the WoF (read the thread + RAW). Because there is no obstruction between the PoI and the Fighter, the Fighter has 0 cover (read the thread + RAW).

[mgshamster]

The Fireball explodes at the Point of Impact (RAW). The Point of Impact is inside the WoF (read the thread + RAW). Because there is no obstruction between the PoI and the Fighter, the Fighter has 0 cover (read the thread + RAW).

You are simply wrong.

You should take your own advice about reading the book.

[smcmike]

I aim for his feet.

Do I have LoS? yes

Do I have LoE? yes

Is there Full Cover? No, I can see the target and there is no obstruction between myself and the target, because the 1/2 inch gap (or 3 inches, etc) qualifies as only providing 3/4 cover, NOT FULL COVER.

You're still wrong, period. You can keep arguing, and keep being wrong.

Are you really arguing that a half inch gap at the floor is 3/4 cover for the fighter? I thought you had moved on to arguing that you didn't have to pay attention to cover rules for the fighter because you were targeting a point. Please tell me you aren't still arguing that the fighter is only behind 3/4 cover. Half an inch of boot sole is a quarter of a person?!

[Cybren]

Also, I would dispute that a half inch wide gap underneath an invisible object qualifies as a clear path to the target, but you know, who am I for expecting words to have meaning

[RulesJD]

The fireball won't even work. He's behind full cover and there's an obstruction, the the Point of Origin happens on the near side of the obstruction.

Even if the wizard is bending down or laying on the ground next to the 1/2" gap, total cover is total cover. There's no way around it by RAW, without a GM ruling. As RulesJD has insistently stated, there is no GM to make a ruling here, so we have to go back to RAW only. RAW does not allow a way around this, no matter how much he makes up rules otherwise. That fireball will go off on the outside of the WoF.

If he wants to fire an AoE to the inside of the WoF, he has to adjust the WoF to 3/4 cover. Once that happens, the fighter can shoot out, killing the wizard in a round or two.

I've yet to see a single reference to the PHB where 1/2 inch is qualified as Total Cover, whereas spells such as Forcecage (1/2 inch wide bars + 1/2 inch gaps) does not provide Total Cover. Arrow slits (of indeterminate width but unquestionably not big enough to fit through) are specifically listed as only providing 3/4 cover. If you want to say it then I just say the gap at the bottom is of "arrow slit" width and it makes no difference. 1/2 inch is just the smallest size that works by RAW.

You'll notice I never once said that the Fighter can't shoot out. It can even use Sharpshooter to ignore the cover.

But it can't ignore Disadvantage (targeting Prone target) nor the fact that the Wizard will be in a Rope Trick on the Fighter's turn, thus limiting it to 1 ranged attack per round, at Disadvantage, because Readied Action don't provide a full Action. Fighter will be dead long before the Wizard.

[RulesJD]

Are you really arguing that a half inch gap at the floor is 3/4 cover for the fighter? I thought you had moved on to arguing that you didn't have to pay attention to cover rules for the fighter because you were targeting a point. Please tell me you aren't still arguing that the fighter is only behind 3/4 cover. Half an inch of boot sole is a quarter of a person?!

Yes, I am, because the 1/2 inch gap at the bottom of the WoF will provide 3/4 cover to the Fighter, FROM THE WIZARD.

BUT, the PoI for Fireball is INSIDE THE WoF. Targeting the PoI for the Fireball doesn't care about cover.

NOR does Magic Missile care about cover. How hard is it for all of you to understand that concept? I literally provided a visual diagram earlier and yet it still confuses you.

Don't blame me for RAW being what it is. This is a whiteroom analysis and thus RAW rules. You can take it up with WotC if you want, but RAW is clear.

[Waazraath]

Yes, I am, because the 1/2 inch gap at the bottom of the WoF will provide 3/4 cover to the Fighter, FROM THE WIZARD.

BUT, the PoI for Fireball is INSIDE THE WoF. Targeting the PoI for the Fireball doesn't care about cover.

NOR does Magic Missile care about cover. How hard is it for all of you to understand that concept? I literally provided a visual diagram earlier and yet it still confuses you.

Don't blame me for RAW being what it is. This is a whiteroom analysis and thus RAW rules. You can take it up with WotC if you want, but RAW is clear.

You know, there is a point where if a dozen people disagree with you on something that is 'clear', you might start to consider it isn't as clear as you think. Just saying.

[Cybren]

The cover rules don't care about what spell you cast. The fighter has full cover from magic missiles, acid splashes, and fire bolts. Sorry

[smcmike]

When dungeon crawling, I assume RulesJD makes a habit of shooting arrows under the doors before kicking them down.

[mgshamster]

When dungeon crawling, I assume RulesJD makes a habit of shooting arrows under the doors before kicking them down.

It's the best way to target enemies before going in.

[RulesJD]

You are simply wrong.

You should take your own advice about reading the book.

*sigh*

I know you wont, but it would be nice for you to admit you're wrong:

1. PHB. pg. 203: "The target of a spell must be within the spell's range. For a spell like magic missile, the target is a creature. For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts."

2. PHB pg. 204: "A spell's description tells you whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or a point of origin for an area of effect (described below).

3. PHB pg. 204: "A CLEAR PATH TO THE TARGET - To target something, you must have a clear path to it,
so it can't be behind total cover. lf you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction. such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.

4. PHB pg. 204: "Every area of effect has a paint of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts....Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object. A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."

5. PHB pg. 205: "ATTACK ROLLS - Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll to determine whether the spell effect hits the intended target."

6. PHB pg. 196: "COVER - A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.

7. PHB pg. 196: "A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.

8. PHB: pg. 196: "A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.

9. PHB: pg. 242 "FIREBALL - A bright streak flashes from your pointing linger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame...The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried."

10. PHB: pg. 257: "MAGIC MISSILE - "Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range."

11. PHB. pg. 275: "SHATTER - "A non-magical object that isn't being worn or carried also takes the damage if it's in the spell's area."

There you have it. That's every rule I've relied on that has in some way been questioned (I think, I might have missed one about Mold Earth and such but that doesn't seem to be in dispute here, nor Rope Trick, nor Readied Actions etc.).

You don't like the RAW? Cool. I might not either. But this is a whiteroom analysis so there ya go.

[RulesJD]

You know, there is a point where if a dozen people disagree with you on something that is 'clear', you might start to consider it isn't as clear as you think. Just saying.

There aren't a dozen. There are, at best, 3-4 at a time that are TOO LAZY to read the entire thread. This means they haven't seen the other posters who thought they were right too, for the exact same reasons, only to either stop posting (when the realized they were wrong and didn't want to have to admit it) or did straight up admit that they were wrong by RAW (albeit likely right by RoI, ROCS, etc).

[mgshamster]

I've yet to see a single reference to the PHB where 1/2 inch is qualified as Total Cover, whereas spells such as Forcecage (1/2 inch wide bars + 1/2 inch gaps) does not provide Total Cover. Arrow slits (of indeterminate width but unquestionably not big enough to fit through) are specifically listed as only providing 3/4 cover. If you want to say it then I just say the gap at the bottom is of "arrow slit" width and it makes no difference. 1/2 inch is just the smallest size that works by RAW.

I am really amazed that someone actually and honestly believes that many vertical 1/2" gaps is equivalent to a single horizontal 1/2" gap at the bottom. It's truly a sight to behold.

Like that tanker I met back in the army who insisted that 5/8 was less than 1/2. Are you that same guy?


You'll notice I never once said that the Fighter can't shoot out.

Do you really want me to go find the quote to use your own words against you, or should I just use your more recent words against you?

I think the latter is funnier. "It's not my fault you're too lazy to read the thread."


It can even use Sharpshooter to ignore the cover.

But it can't ignore Disadvantage (targeting Prone target) nor the fact that the Wizard will be in a Rope Trick on the Fighter's turn, thus limiting it to 1 ranged attack per round, at Disadvantage, because Readied Action don't provide a full Action. Fighter will be dead long before the Wizard.

Round 1: wiz casts WoF.

Round 2: wiz casts ripe trick

Round 3: wiz starts actually doing damage.

Round whatever: wizard runs out of spells

How did you plan on surviving those first two rounds? How did you plan on surviving when the wizard runs out of spells?

You can't do enough damage to kill the fighter.

[smcmike]

There aren't a dozen. There are, at best, 3-4 at a time that are TOO LAZY to read the entire thread. This means they haven't seen the other posters who thought they were right too, for the exact same reasons, only to either stop posting (when the realized they were wrong and didn't want to have to admit it) or did straight up admit that they were wrong by RAW (albeit likely right by RoI, ROCS, etc).

I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing your interlocutors of being lazy. It is rude.


Also, let's ignore the fireball for a moment. You don't even want to use fireball, if I remember correctly. You want to make 3/4 cover and shoot it out with the fighter, while ducking behind full cover every round, right?

If so, you are probably dead in round 1, by my guess.

Wizard - I cast wall of force, leaving a gap sufficient for 3/4 cover.
Fighter - cool. I shoot you 8 times.

[RulesJD]

I am really amazed that someone actually and honestly believes that many vertical 1/2" gaps is equivalent to a single horizontal 1/2" gap at the bottom. It's truly a sight to behold.

Like that tanker I met back in the army who insisted that 5/8 was less than 1/2. Are you that same guy?



Do you really want me to go find the quote to use your own words against you, or should I just use your more recent words against you?

I think the latter is funnier. "It's not my fault you're too lazy to read the thread."



Round 1: wiz casts WoF.

Round 2: wiz casts ripe trick

Round 3: wiz starts actually doing damage.

Round whatever: wizard runs out of spells

How did you plan on surviving those first two rounds? How did you plan on surviving when the wizard runs out of spells?

You can't do enough damage to kill the fighter.

1. Ironically close guess, in the Cavalry but not a Tanker.

Also why I know that hitting a 1/2 inch target at 20ft isn't really that hard, especially when I don't have to deal with actually doing anything physical like trigger pull, breathing, etc.

2. By all means, find the quote. Then find the 30+ times I said the Fighter can shoot out, I literally congratulated a guy for finally bringing up the point that Sharpshooter can ignore the 3/4 cover restriction, and pointed out that with Mold Earth/Rope Trick the Fighter has to rely on Readied Actions.


3.

Round 1: Wizard casts WoF in a full sphere without any gap. Fighter sits there and has nothing to do.

Round 2: Wizard casts Rope Trick and goes into Rope Trick. Fighter still has nothing to do.

Round 3: Wizard casts WoF in a half-dome with gap at the bottom. Fighter can Ready Action -> 1 ranged attack at disadvantage. Wizard can cast Shield but likely won't need to nor care.

Round 4+: Wizard leans out of Rope Trick and either uses Fireball, Acid Splash, MM, non-concentration buff depending on the build of the Wizard. Each round Fighter makes 1 ranged attack through 3/4 cover (unless Sharpshooter which I imagine most builds would have) at Disadvantage (unless Wizard is buffing inside the Rope Trick).