Help and opinions on a character build

[OdinsGirl]

I am building a high level (18th) character and I need some suggestions and opinions on how best to optimize the build. This is for a Forgotten Realms based 3.5e game, no limitations on books.

I want to build a dwarf that fights with a Dwarven warhammer in one hand and a light hammer in the other. The character needs to be movement based attack style as opposed to stationary tank.

I have looked at several class options, such as Kensai, Monk, Fighter, and Warblade.

So far the only option that I seem to have is to go Fighter 18 so I have enough feats to purchase the really long feat list.

I found some feats that I think will help, and these are what I am looking at so far:

Weapon Profiency Dwarven Warhammer(racial) or weapon class hammers (UA), Two weapon fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility. All from the PHB

I also found two fighting styles from the Complete Warrior and the Dragon Mag, "Bite of Steel" and "Storm of Flying Strikes (DR332).

Additionally I like the Tactical styles of "Elusive Target" and "Giant Bane". However, I am unsure if I need to purchase anything other than the feats needed to know a Tactical style. For example, do I need to purchase all the feats to get a style, and then waste a feat slot to know "Elusive Target Tactical Style"?

I am not sure if I might have missed a class, feat, prestige class, or something that might acomplish this better?

Suggestions would be grand, as I have found several optimizations for dwarves with two weapon figting that focus on axes, and a few that use two different bladed weapons, but not a lot that seems to work well with bludgeoning weapons.

I was also looking at taking the regional feat "Fleet of Foot" from Forgottens Realms books or maybe the prestige class Tempest?

[Khedrac]

I want to build a dwarf that fights with a Dwarven warhammer in one hand and a light hammer in the other. The character needs to be movement based attack style as opposed to stationary tank.
Straight-off this is going to be a problem for you.
Making more than one attack in a round (nearly always - exceptions exist) requires a full attack. Making a full attack limits your movement in the round to a 5' step (OK there are magic items which change this, but then you are usually talking #/day).

The usual way of doing "movement-based" attack styles is spring attack, but this does limit you to a single attack - which is not a good way to do lots of damage.
There is a feat (dual strike?) which allows two-weapon users to make two attacks on a spring attack, but iteratives are usually a significant source of damage. Also two-weapon fighting requires considerable feat investment most of which is wasted when one is not making multiple attacks.

The other "movement-based" attack style is charging. Happily this has a much simpler way round the "single attack" limit - pounce, usually gained from a spirit lion totem barbarian (Complete Champion), so this one actually synergises with two-weapon fighting! That said, it may not be what you meant by "movement-based attacking".

I strongly recommend looking at the two-weapon fighting (off-)handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook), as with all of these guides one should not follow them slavishly, but they provide a useful analysis of what does and does not work with ideas of how to put it together.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You're looking to cram a lot of options into one build. That's only natural, but it's best to pick the one or two things you really want to be good at, and do other things secondarily.

Things that don't work that well together:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting and Power Attack. Power Attack is more efficient when used with two-handed weapons.
2) Monk and dwarves. In general, monks don't wear armour, and dwarves have a racial ability that improves their ability to wear armour, so those don't match up too well (although dwarves have good ability scores for a monk).
3) Elusive Target and not being a stationary tank. Elusive Target is only useful if you're being smacked by a giant, or if you are flanked. It's a defensive feat, so it's pretty much for a tank.
4) Giantbane and being a mobile damage-dealer. Giantbane works when you're next to a giant, and the tactical maneuvers keep you near the giant. In addition, Giantbane is primarily a defensive feat.

This is not a criticism of your concept. I just mean to suggest that you should pick the one thing you want to be good at. First, make sure you can do that thing well, then see how much material (feats, levels) you have left to work with, and then pick your secondary target.

Tome of Battle is by far the best book for melee classes, and I suggest you pick one of the three base classes there as starting point. Barbarian has some use, as well, and possibly Bloodclaw Master, though that doesn't work with hammers.

In this case, the Tiger Claw discipline offers a number of powerful two-weapon fighting abilities. You're looking for abilities like this:

RAGING MONGOOSE
[...]
After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield (to a maximum of four extra attacks if you wield two or more weapons). These extra attacks are made at your highest attack bonus for each of your respective weapons.
[...]
As warblade, you'll have about a dozen of these maneuvers known, of which you can ready six at the start of combat. Typically, that means you can completely rip your opponent to shreds a few times per combat, and you'll still have utility out of combat (mobility, mostly).

[ATHATH]

I recommend taking the Travel Devotion feat, and possibly a dip into Cloistered Cleric as well to fuel it.

[Darrin]

I want to build a dwarf that fights with a Dwarven warhammer in one hand and a light hammer in the other. The character needs to be movement based attack style as opposed to stationary tank.


I'm not sure how a Dwarven warhammer is any different from a normal warhammer. If you mean the martial one-handed bludgeoning weapon that does 1d8 damage, then there's nothing particularly dwarven about it, other than it's often depicted as one of the most favored weapons by dwarves.

If you mean the warmace or maul (in Complete Warrior), those are exotic hammers a little larger than a standard warhammer, but require an extra feat to wield them properly. While no doubt favored by dwarves, they aren't considered "Dwarven" for the purposes of weapon familiarity. The "Dwarven" weapons would be:

Dwarven urgrosh (PHB)
Dwarven waraxe (PHB)
Dwarven buckler-axe (A&EG, Complete Warrior, Races of Stone)
Dwarven warpike (Races of Stone)

There's an optional rule in Complete Warrior (pages 154-155) that may allow you to switch your racial weapon familiarity from one weapon to another. You could, for example, switch your proficiency with the Dwarven urgrosh and Dwarven waraxe to the buckler-axe and warpike (AKA the "greatsword on a stick").

If the UA weapon groups are available, then this is another good way to get proficiency in an exotic weapon without expending a feat slot on Exotic Weapon Proficiency.



So far the only option that I seem to have is to go Fighter 18 so I have enough feats to purchase the really long feat list.


That's doable, but not particularly mobile. You're going to want a Barbarian dip in there for Pounce (Spirit Lion Totem, Complete Champion), and maybe the second level as well for Improved Trip (Wolf Totem, UA). Or if you prefer the monochrome fighter route, maybe take Travel Devotion (x3) as your 1st, 3rd, and 9th level feats.



Weapon Profiency Dwarven Warhammer(racial) or weapon class hammers (UA), Two weapon fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility. All from the PHB

I also found two fighting styles from the Complete Warrior and the Dragon Mag, "Bite of Steel" and "Storm of Flying Strikes (DR332).


There are several weapon style feats in Complete Warrior, but none of them pair up a warhammer with another bludgeoning weapon. Most of these weapon style feats are really terrible, though: you have to take several nearly-useless feats you'll probably never use, and the options they offer are difficult to use or just plain worse than a standard/full attack. But a couple might be worth considering... for example:

Anvil of Thunder: This one is interesting, because the "dazed" effect is really nasty, and very few creatures are naturally immune to it (as opposed to stunning). The downside is the five prereqs, including Improved Sunder, which will be either useless or will destroy your loot. Dwarven waraxe paired with a light hammer doesn't incur any additional feats, although if you're trying to add Power Attack as well, I'd be tempted to add Oversized TWF and pair up waraxe with warhammer.

Hammer's Edge: This is sorta like "Improved Trip", although they fall prone with a failed Fort save. Not quite as feat intensive as Anvil of Thunder, which is nice, and it includes Improved Bull Rush, which you might have been picking up anyway if you were going the Shock Trooper route. However, if I want to knock something prone, I think I'd prefer to get Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) instead.

Lightning Mace: Two bludgeoning weapons, but unfortunately they are monumentally sucktastic at getting criticals, unless you're abusing the Aptitude property from Tome of Battle. Also, can't power attack with light weapons, and even if you did use Aptitude to switch in better weapons, it sounds like you'd still be using hammers, which typically favor higher crit multipliers rather than larger crit ranges.

Three Mountains: I'm actually a big fan of this one, and as far as status conditions go, nausea is nearly as devastating as dazed. I prefer morningstars, but a pair of heavy maces would work almost the same.

Now, as far as the two styles from Dragon #332 goes... I looked those over.

Bite of Steel: Big steaming pile of monkeypoop. Sai aren't particularly good TWF weapons to begin with, and the only time this feat would be useful is against another opponent that is also using TWF style, and for some reason you are particularly worried that his offhand attack is going to kill you harder than his primary weapon. So you give up all your offhand attacks to attempt to pin your opponent's offhand weapon, and if successful, your opponent can negate this minor inconvenience by... stepping 5' away, or dropping the weapon. The overwhelming majority of your opponents are not even going to have an offhand weapon.

Storm of Flying Strikes: This one is interesting, and the prereqs are very reasonable, particularly if you were planning to grab Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush and TWF anyway. The sticking point is that Power Attack and TWF don't work well together out of the box, but there are a few methods to get them to play nice: Oversized TWF, Agile Shield Fighter, and a two-handed weapon with Improved Unarmed Strike as your offhand weapon. The other problem is mobility... and if you're already devoting feat slots to both TWF and Power Attack/IBR/Shock Trooper, you may not have much room for anything else. Even so, worth considering in a Barb 2/Fighter 16 build.




Additionally I like the Tactical styles of "Elusive Target" and "Giant Bane".


Gah... TWF, Power Attack line, *and* the Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target line? Ideally, you'd want tripping feats in there for Cause Overreach, but it sounds like you're trying to do too much. Then again, you start at 18, so there's no painful slog through the lower levels waiting to get all your prereq feats lined up. Even if you can get everything you need to fit, I'm not sure you're going to have an easy time figuring out what to do on the battlefield: are you going to zip around the battlefield tripping your opponents, or are you going to hammer away at them with Power Attack?

As far as Giantbane goes... not quite steaming monkeypoop, but not something I'd want to give any sort of endorsement for. "Duck Underneath" requires you to use Total Defense. If you *ever* intentionally use this in combat, and your DM is willing to verify that you did indeed use it willingly for non-financial reasons, I will mail you a dollar. "Death From Below" requires you to waste an entire round using Total Defense. "Climb Aboard" is somewhat interesting, but climbing requires two hands free to at least get on board, and one hand after that to hold on, so attacking via TWF becomes problematic. If you really want to do something like this, then take a look at Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk in Races of the Wild, which does this sort of thing a lot better. You'd have to be small-sized to take those feats, but this is doable in the Forgotten Realms because Wild Dwarves from the jungles of Chult are small (Races of Faerun p. 24).



However, I am unsure if I need to purchase anything other than the feats needed to know a Tactical style. For example, do I need to purchase all the feats to get a style, and then waste a feat slot to know "Elusive Target Tactical Style"?


Tactical Style feats have to be purchased like any other feat. Once you get the prereqs, you need to take Elusive Target as a feat. Once you do, you get access to all of the tactical options in that particular style.

There are some "Martial Arts Styles" in Oriental Adventures that work a little differently, where you get all the prereq feats to unlock a "Mastery Ability", and you don't have to pay a feat slot on the Mastery Ability. However, none of them are really worth the bother, and they require way too many monk levels to make them even slightly useable.



I was also looking at taking the regional feat "Fleet of Foot" from Forgottens Realms books or maybe the prestige class Tempest?

I'm not a big fan of Tempest. It requires the Spring Attack line of feats, but these feats really don't work well TWF.

As far as Fleet of Foot goes... this is a regional feat that is not available to dwarves. You can ask your DM to handwave the racial/regional requirement, but in general it's easier to increase your land speed via magic items than with feat slots. You're trying to mix TWF, Power Attack, and Elusive Target into the same build... are you really going to have room for Fleet of Foot?

Now then... as far as more specific advice goes, here's a Barb 2/Fighter 16 build:

Race: Shield Dwarf
1) Fighter 1. Feat: Travel Devotion. Bonus: Power Attack.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Oversized TWF.
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
5) Fighter 5.
6) Fighter 6. Feat: Storm of Flying Strikes. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
7) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce, Whirling Frenzy ACF (UA).
8) Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
9) Fighter 7. Feat: Knock-Down.
10) Fighter 8. Bonus: Improved TWF.
11) Fighter 9.
12) Fighter 10. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Dodge.
13) Fighter 11.
14) Fighter 12. Bonus: Mobility.
15) Fighter 13. Feat: Elusive Target.
16) Fighter 14. Bonus: Weapon Focus Warhammer.
17) Fighter 15.
18) Fighter 16. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Bonus: Greater TWF.

That fits most everything in, and you've got 30 rounds of Travel Devotion to move around the battlefield. I'm not sure how often you'll get to use Elusive Target, but it's nice to have those options available.

The other thing that comes to mind when you say you want to mix mobility with TWF is a Swift Hunter build. Scout 4/Ranger 14 might work well here... except there's not enough feat slots to do anything except the TWF line and some Travel Devotion. So we may have to throw some Fighter in there... that gets us Power Attack/IBR/Shock Trooper at least, but still not much room for anything else. And Favored Class might be a problem, if your group plays with Multiclass penalties. We can get around that somewhat with Jungle Dwarf (UA p. 13) to pick up Favored Class: Ranger, and then we can go Dragonborn of Buhamat to pick up Favored Class: Fighter, but then you lose all your racial dwarfiness stuff, including Dwarven Step and Weapon Familiarity. And we still want Barbarian in there too... hrrrm.

Race: Shield Dwarf or Jungle Dwarf
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion. Skirmish 1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Oversized TWF. Bonus: TWF.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish 2d6AC+1/4d6AC+3.
7) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
8) Ranger 4.
9) Ranger 5. Feat: Power Attack. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
10) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF.
11) Fighter 1. Improved Bull Rush.
12) Fighter 2. Feat: Leap Attack. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
13) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce, Whirling Frenzy ACF.
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2).
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
17) Ranger 10. Bonus: Greater TWF.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 4d6AC+4/6d6AC+6.

Hmmm. We can free up some more feat slots if we slip in a level of Cloistered Cleric for Travel Devotion. Let's see... Marthammor Duin has the Travel domain, but not much else (Faiths & Pantheons p. 120). Hanseath maybe... Travel and War domain, but his favored weapon is the Greataxe (Races of Stone p. 17) and it's not clear if he's available in the Forgotten Realms. If alternate pantheons are available, then worshiping the entire Asgardian pantheon might be ideal (Deities & Demigods p. 167): Travel and War domains, you can pick warhammer as your favored weapon, and you get to say "By Odin's Beard!" a lot.

Race: Shield Dwarf or Jungle Dwarf
1) Scout 1. Feat: Power Attack. Skirmish 1d6.
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Oversized TWF. Bonus: TWF.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish 2d6AC+1/4d6AC+3.
7) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2/4d6AC+4.
8) Ranger 4.
9) Ranger 5. Feat: Leap Attack. Skirmish 3d6AC+2/5d6AC+4.
10) Ranger 6. Bonus: Improved TWF.
11) Cloistered Cleric 1. Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and maybe Protection Devotion or War domain.
12) Fighter 1. Feat: Improved Bull Rush. Bonus: Shock Trooper.
13) Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce, Whirling Frenzy ACF.
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 3d6AC+3/5d6AC+5.
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Extra Turning.
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 4d6AC+3/6d6AC+5.
17) Ranger 10. Bonus: Greater TWF.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: {Open}. Bonus: Greater TWF. Skirmish 4d6AC+4/6d6AC+6.

For that last feat... Storm of Flying Strikes could go there. If you go Fireblood Dwarf (Dragon Magic), you could put Dragonfire Strike there for +1d6 Skirmish damage. We can also squeeze in a lot more Skirmish damage if we replace some Ranger levels with Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon), Unseen Seer (Complete Mage), and Highland Stalker (Complete Adventurer).

You also mentioned looking at Kensai, Monk, and Warblade.

Kensai: This PrC aggravates me because it doesn't have full BAB, but outside of that it has it's uses. You didn't mention what exactly you wanted out of this, but if you're looking for an easier way to add weapon enhancements, then the Ancestral Relic feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) can be quite nifty for this. Only works for 1 weapon, but I think there's a double hammer somewhere... ah yes: Complete Warrior.

Monk: This is not a popular class on this forum, for reasons we don't really need to go into here. However, I two-level dip with the variant fighting styles in UA can be useful for picking up Dodge/Mobility (Cobra Strike) if you absolutely have to have Elusive Target but are running out of feats, or Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush (Overwhelming Attack) for Shock Trooper. On the other hand, if you want to TWF with a two-handed weapon and use Improved Unarmed Strike for your offhand, I like to dip Battle Dancer 1 and then pick up Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick from Tome of Battle. This preserves your full BAB for Power Attack purposes.

Warblade: Oh so tempting, but hard to fit in without losing feats. For the first build I posted, Barbarian 2/Fighter 14/Warblade 2 should work fine, just lose Weapon Focus. Delay your Warblade levels until the very end, and you can pick up to 5th level maneuvers with Initiator Level 9. No multiclass penalty to worry about, either. This is much harder to fit into a Swift Hunter build... but take that last one, replace Fighter 1 with Warblade 1, and use your last feat slot for Shock Trooper. Still has multiclass penalties, though.

[Phenrix]

Are you playing a race with level adj?

This is the way to get the best of both for combat and movement.

Get a combat mount, preferably something with a good movement. Get the mounted combat feats up to spur mount and spirited charge. (Faster/farther/deadlier/Lower DC)
Use the mount on your turn to move for you while you ride, (ride check < move action) saving you the option of a full attack.

Get some mount based enchantments on your weapon, really helpful if you dont wield a lance.

The mount can make its own attacks as well, EG; a wolf can make trip attempts = if successful, the enemy is prone when you make your attack action.

Charging does not subject you too an attack of opportunity, so get feats or enchantments that that maximize your ability to strike accurately. (Mount)

Feats like attack focus and breaking blow would be very helpful, if you like the trip combo get feats that focus on the enemy being prone / keeping them there.

Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Warblade. Prestige: Frenzied brezerker, Ravager, Hoardbreaker, Or perhaps a class based on mounted combat.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn Dwarf Warblade 20 (Fly past your opponents while smashing them with 2 hammers)

Vital Feats: Flyby Attack, Two Weapon Fighting

When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move.

Maneuvers: Focus on the Tiger Claw maneuvers and other Standard action maneuvers that grant multiple attacks

[justiceforall]

4 Levels of Paladin into Travel Devotion also works if you don't want to give up BAB. And if the rest of your levels are fighter you don't get the multiclass penalty.

Perhaps ask your GM to consider allowing you to take the Dervish prestige class, except for hammers instead of slashing weapons? (or use axes instead of hammers, it's still dwarfy). That lets you run through combat swinging away freely.

[OdinsGirl]

Thank you for your input, Everyone!

After reading through what everyone said, I agree that I wanted too much, so I ditched the mobility aspect of the character build. This is what I am left with.

Fighter Lvl 12 BAB 12/7/2
Racial/ Class given:
Weapon Group (Hammers and Picks) (UA)
Racial Familiarity: Hammers
Shield Proficiency: All
Armor Proficiency: All

Purchased Feats:
PHB: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved 2WF, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (Hammers)

Complete Warr: Improved Buckler Defence, Power Critical,
Races of Stone: Shielded Hammer (DM approved Changing "Shielded Axe" to Shielded Hammer) pg 144

Dragon Mag: REtribution DR326 p33, Deadly Concussion DR333 p88

I still like Storm of Flying Strikes, but I agree that it has limited usefulness. I have 1 extra feat slot that I could use to purchase the "Combat Style". I am on the fence about it. If I ditch it, I free up 1, maybe 2 feat slots.

I also have a few extra levels left over, and I am now looking into a good tank class to spend those on. I like Kensai the most for this. :D

.. On your mark, get set, DESTROY!!