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Mr. Mask
2016-05-09, 12:18 AM
A few systems don't have initiative based turns, but rather have actions take a certain amount of time. Punching might be faster than kicking, so someone who tries to punch you normally hits first (if you tried to kick).
The question is, what system has done the best of timekeeping for this, to make it not drag on?


I've had some ideas for how you might be able to keep time for this the most effectively, and I wanted to ask your opinions on this and your own ideas.

1) Have counters you count off. Your action costs 5 points, so you pick up five tokens. Everyone discards a token at the same time. When you've discarded them all, you act.
Having to all discard tokens at the same time could get clunky, is the main issue, and it could be awkward.

2) Have a score card, or dice. You mark the point on the scorecard where your actions will take place. When the Time Keeper says to, you all move up the time card/dice counter. When you reach your action on the card, you perform it.
Largely better. If you're marking the turns with tokens, you better be careful of bumping the scorecards.

3) The Time Keeper keeps track of who performs what actions when.
This can be a lot for one person to handle, especially if they're controlling enemies in addition.



You can, of course, use a combination of these aspects to get an arguably better result. I've mostly, of the systems I've looked into, seen spreadsheet/scorecard versions, where you work out a table of who goes when then play through it.

goto124
2016-05-09, 12:26 AM
Which kind would be best for PbP, where initiative is hardest to handle?

Mr. Mask
2016-05-09, 01:13 AM
Which kind would be best for PbP, where initiative is hardest to handle? In some ways it's easier, in most it's harder. The granularity disappears with one post per day, so it ends up feeling a lot more like turns.

Each player can do the basic calculations of when their actions will take place. t+10 or whichever. The GM can then look through them and describe what happens. But it makes it hard to say, pull your blow at the last second and do something else. On the bright side, online real time games are easier to play now than ever.

Zombimode
2016-05-09, 02:35 AM
A few systems don't have initiative based turns, but rather have actions take a certain amount of time. Punching might be faster than kicking, so someone who tries to punch you normally hits first (if you tried to kick).
The question is, what system has done the best of timekeeping for this, to make it not drag on?

AD&D's initiative system works like this.

When I still played 2e, my group would eventually settle on the following:

On each round every character decides his or her action and determines the initiative. Like, casting a 2nd level spell is 1d10+2.
After that the GM counts from zero up. Whenever the action of an NPC/monster turns up, he declares as much. In the same sense, player will notify if their initiative count has come up. Actions on the same initiative count are handled separately with the understanding that they will all happen regardless of order.

It has worked really well and is surprisingly efficient. The GM doesn't need to write down the PC's initiative counts and it works very well with pre-rolled initiatives on the GM's side.

To give you an example:

The characters of Alice, Bob, Clarice and Eric face down a small band of orcs including an ogre and lead by a priest.

Its the first turn of combat.
Alice decides to use a bow: 1d10+6 results in 9
Bob lets his cleric cast Bless: 1d10+5 results in 10
Clarice wants to charge the first enemy in range and attack with a greatsword: 1d10+7 = 8 (lucky!)
Eric casts Magic Missile: 1W10+1 = 8

For the four orcs (armed with battleaxes (initiative mod +7)) and the ogre (armed with a big club (initiative mod +8)) the GM uses lists of pre-rolled initiative. He has to roll for the priest depending on the spell.
The first four entries on the orc's initiative list read 15, 11, 10, 17. The ogre gets a 11.
The priest opts to cast Bane on the PCs (initiative mod +5, the GM rolls and gets a 9).

The GM asks "everyone ready?" and begins counting.
"0, 1, 2, 3" in quick succession because he doesn't expect action going on so low in the initiative count. He could also ask "anyone before ..." and insert the lowest initiative count when something happens on his side.
Then "4, the orc priest starts casting". Eric: "Ha!"
GM (now more slowly): "5 ... 6.. ", Bob: "Hold on, my characters starts casting Bless at 5"
GM: "Alright. 6 ... 7 ..."; Eric: "Start casting Magic Missile on the priest! He is still casting, right? This will get him!"
GM: "So, at 8 your spell resolves and...", Clarice interrupts: "and my character has charged the first orc and smacks him with her greatsword!" *rolls*
GM: "That's a hit and the damage is enough to disable the orc. Whats the damage roll for your magic missiles, Eric?" "13!" "Ok, the priest still stands but he couldn't keep his concentration. So lets move on: 9 ..." Alice: "Sending an arrow in the priest's general direction." *attack is resolved*
GM: "At 10 one of the orcs strikes your character, Clarice, with an axe..." Bob: "and Bless resolves"
GM: "At 11, another orc attacks and the ogre, too. Anyone after 11?" Alice: "Yes, my second attack at 15!"
GM: "Ok, make your attack. Clarice, you are subject to another attack by an orc."
Seeing that the orc at initiative 17 has died to Clarices charge attack earlier that round, this marks the end of the round. The GM announces the start of the next turn, the players decide their actions.

Mr. Mask
2016-05-09, 04:18 AM
Thank you for weighing in, Zombi. This is really interesting to me. That seems a great system.

Hmm... do you think the system could endure more granularity? Say, if movement was calculated on a point basis, and characters could try to position and outmaneuver each other. I guess if it was something like 2 points per five foot square, it'd look like...


The orcs are about 30 feet away when combat starts. The orcs and Clarice surge forward. It takes them 12 points to close, but because the orcs and Clarice are rushing forward they'll meet in the middle, 6 points away. They might have an option for when they start their swing (too soon, and the enemy can just step back as they hit thin air, too late and they won't get the first hit).

Clarice's 9 means she has plenty of time to move in and hit the first orc, reaching him at 6. She decides to go straight for him, and the other orcs mostly do the same.

One peels off, trying to flank the casters and archer at the back. Because of the extra curve, it'll take him 15 points to get there. Plenty of time for Clarice and the others to respond.

The ogre tries to just plow past Clarice as it strikes her. It closes at 8, dawdles just long enough to strike a blow at 11, then carries on towards the others. Clarice, after dealing with another orc, rushes to flank the ogre in the back, reaching him a 3 points after he reaches the party (who might be scattering).


How does this sound to you? I haven't used a particularly fiddly example. Mostly in movement, there's a limit to how much you can really outmaneuver someone. Alternatives could be say, moving your character every even numbered turn, or every odd number turn, or every multiple of 3. Etc..

RazorChain
2016-05-09, 04:44 AM
Or you could just use Gurps which resolves actions on 1 second basis with the person with highest speed acting first.

JeenLeen
2016-05-09, 01:45 PM
Try looking at Exalted (at least 2nd edition-not sure about others). It has a "Join Battle" roll instead of an Initiative roll, but they essentially mean the same thing.

However, after that, you have a 'tick' wheel, where ticks are a measure of time. Initiative just measures where each person starts. Whoever starts on tick 1 takes an action then, then tick 2, and so on. Each action takes so many ticks. 6 is standard, but some weapons or spells are faster, some slower. One character may use 6-7 tick attacks with heavy weapons, while another uses 3-4 tick light weapons to get slightly more actions.

It was hard for me to follow at first, and the graphic aids that in the PHB (and probably free online) help, but if you find the rules and can understand them (or get someone to explain them), it's a pretty useful system and close to what you want. It should be relatively easy to port to others systems.

Note: I'm probably doing a bad job of explaining it. It sounds closest to your Option #1, except you use the tick wheel and move along it instead of picking up and dropping counters. In a sense, it's a mix of that and Option #3, as the tick wheel takes the place of a person having to manage everything. (Enemies are also placed on the tick wheel, so no second wheel for the DM to manage by himself.)

Knaight
2016-05-09, 01:48 PM
A few systems don't have initiative based turns, but rather have actions take a certain amount of time. Punching might be faster than kicking, so someone who tries to punch you normally hits first (if you tried to kick).
The question is, what system has done the best of timekeeping for this, to make it not drag on?

This particular incarnation of simultaneous turns tends to get sluggish, along with often feeling oddly deterministic. With that said, there are simultaneous turn systems with interesting interactions that don't have this issue, and I'd recommend looking into them. Burning Wheel and the ORE games stand out here.

Louro
2016-05-10, 10:08 AM
Woooooah!
I tend to run away from complex initiative systems as much as I can.
For the "everyone acting at once" initiative I just use the paranoia system. Thus, I ask players what they are going to do, according to their reflexes/agility/nerve/aplomb or whatever relevant characteristic, which may differ from one situation to another (the lowest score gets asked first). Them everything happens, everyone roll theirs attacks or skills while I do the same for the NPCs.

This grants a extremely fast paced combat action.

Gallowglass
2016-05-10, 12:56 PM
AD&D's initiative system works like this.

When I still played 2e, my group would eventually settle on the following:

On each round every character decides his or her action and determines the initiative. Like, casting a 2nd level spell is 1d10+2.
After that the GM counts from zero up. Whenever the action of an NPC/monster turns up, he declares as much. In the same sense, player will notify if their initiative count has come up. Actions on the same initiative count are handled separately with the understanding that they will all happen regardless of order.

It has worked really well and is surprisingly efficient. The GM doesn't need to write down the PC's initiative counts and it works very well with pre-rolled initiatives on the GM's side.

To give you an example:

The characters of Alice, Bob, Clarice and Eric face down a small band of orcs including an ogre and lead by a priest.

Its the first turn of combat.
Alice decides to use a bow: 1d10+6 results in 9
Bob lets his cleric cast Bless: 1d10+5 results in 10
Clarice wants to charge the first enemy in range and attack with a greatsword: 1d10+7 = 8 (lucky!)
Eric casts Magic Missile: 1W10+1 = 8

For the four orcs (armed with battleaxes (initiative mod +7)) and the ogre (armed with a big club (initiative mod +8)) the GM uses lists of pre-rolled initiative. He has to roll for the priest depending on the spell.
The first four entries on the orc's initiative list read 15, 11, 10, 17. The ogre gets a 11.
The priest opts to cast Bane on the PCs (initiative mod +5, the GM rolls and gets a 9).

The GM asks "everyone ready?" and begins counting.
"0, 1, 2, 3" in quick succession because he doesn't expect action going on so low in the initiative count. He could also ask "anyone before ..." and insert the lowest initiative count when something happens on his side.
Then "4, the orc priest starts casting". Eric: "Ha!"
GM (now more slowly): "5 ... 6.. ", Bob: "Hold on, my characters starts casting Bless at 5"
GM: "Alright. 6 ... 7 ..."; Eric: "Start casting Magic Missile on the priest! He is still casting, right? This will get him!"
GM: "So, at 8 your spell resolves and...", Clarice interrupts: "and my character has charged the first orc and smacks him with her greatsword!" *rolls*
GM: "That's a hit and the damage is enough to disable the orc. Whats the damage roll for your magic missiles, Eric?" "13!" "Ok, the priest still stands but he couldn't keep his concentration. So lets move on: 9 ..." Alice: "Sending an arrow in the priest's general direction." *attack is resolved*
GM: "At 10 one of the orcs strikes your character, Clarice, with an axe..." Bob: "and Bless resolves"
GM: "At 11, another orc attacks and the ogre, too. Anyone after 11?" Alice: "Yes, my second attack at 15!"
GM: "Ok, make your attack. Clarice, you are subject to another attack by an orc."
Seeing that the orc at initiative 17 has died to Clarices charge attack earlier that round, this marks the end of the round. The GM announces the start of the next turn, the players decide their actions.

So, what I really get out of this is its like normal initiative, except you have a "start" action and a "complete" action. And you don't seem to rigidly enforce the PCs having to vocalize their start action.
I'm curious if Alice, who decided to use her bow, had to declare who she was shooting at during the declaration phase or during the "start" action or not until the "complete" action.
I'm curious if Clarice, who charged, had to declare who she was charging at during the declaration phase or during the "start" action or not until the "complete" action.


Because based on your narrative, it seems like the PCS got to state who they hit during the "complete" action, which was the most advantageous place to state it.

I would think, if you really wanted to go with something like this, you'd let people take some kind of "retask" interrupt between the declaration and complete if circumstances changed.

Example Narrative, using your initiative order but adding in the rigid starts.

1 clarice start (charge)
2
3 alice start (bow), orc 1 start, ogre start
4 orc 2 start, evil priest start
5 bob start (bless)
6
7 eric start (magic)
8 clarice complete (charge), eric complete (magic), orc 3 start
9 alice complete (bow), evil priest complete
10 bob complete (bless), orc 1 complete, orc 4 start
11 orc 2 complete, ogre complete
12
13
14
15 alice 2nd attack complete (bow), orc 3 complete
16
17 orc 4 complete
18
19
20

So you seem to ONLY make the casters state their "start" action, not the weapon users which is odd. How do you resolve multiples at the same complete point? I would suspect in order of whichever started first? How about if a complete and a start happen on the same point? starts before completes? completed before starts? can a caster about to start a spell choose to, sort of, lag a bit to see if he gets attacked first so that he can take the damage, then start the spell and not have to factor it into concentration?

Assuming that they have to declare their target during declaration, what could have happened if Clarice had said "charge the priest" but then rolled a 10 instead of a 1? And if the magic missile and the bow shot had finished the priest off? The priest would have been dead before she even started her action. Does her round waste? Does she get to shift to a second target?

Segev
2016-05-10, 02:10 PM
I've never found a truly good PbP initiative system. But if you want simultaneous turns, I'd suggest having everybody private-message the GM their chosen actions and any relevant stats, then have the GM resolve them all and post what happened. Simultenaity of turns means initiative doesn't really matter, and that everybody acts at once, so even if Bob the Goblin is killed, he still stabbed Sally the Elf, and Jack and Jill the twin halflings who stabbed Bob both did so, even though their "extra damage" was overkill.

A little risky/downside in that last bit, but probably workable overall.

Mr. Mask
2016-05-12, 09:08 AM
Yeah, that's a cool way to resolve it. Wondering how it'll all come together, then weaving a narrative based off their actions. It does prevent the moment to moment decision making I love about these systems, sadly. At least you all get to do something without waiting around.



So, what I really get out of this is its like normal initiative, except you have a "start" action and a "complete" action. And you don't seem to rigidly enforce the PCs having to vocalize their start action.
I'm curious if Alice, who decided to use her bow, had to declare who she was shooting at during the declaration phase or during the "start" action or not until the "complete" action.
I'm curious if Clarice, who charged, had to declare who she was charging at during the declaration phase or during the "start" action or not until the "complete" action.


Because based on your narrative, it seems like the PCS got to state who they hit during the "complete" action, which was the most advantageous place to state it.

I would think, if you really wanted to go with something like this, you'd let people take some kind of "retask" interrupt between the declaration and complete if circumstances changed.

Example Narrative, using your initiative order but adding in the rigid starts.

1 clarice start (charge)
2
3 alice start (bow), orc 1 start, ogre start
4 orc 2 start, evil priest start
5 bob start (bless)
6
7 eric start (magic)
8 clarice complete (charge), eric complete (magic), orc 3 start
9 alice complete (bow), evil priest complete
10 bob complete (bless), orc 1 complete, orc 4 start
11 orc 2 complete, ogre complete
12
13
14
15 alice 2nd attack complete (bow), orc 3 complete
16
17 orc 4 complete
18
19
20

So you seem to ONLY make the casters state their "start" action, not the weapon users which is odd. How do you resolve multiples at the same complete point? I would suspect in order of whichever started first? How about if a complete and a start happen on the same point? starts before completes? completed before starts? can a caster about to start a spell choose to, sort of, lag a bit to see if he gets attacked first so that he can take the damage, then start the spell and not have to factor it into concentration?

Assuming that they have to declare their target during declaration, what could have happened if Clarice had said "charge the priest" but then rolled a 10 instead of a 1? And if the magic missile and the bow shot had finished the priest off? The priest would have been dead before she even started her action. Does her round waste? Does she get to shift to a second target?

These are good points. I'm not sure how it is in AD&D. your post has given me a few ideas on the matter, though.

One thing that I found more interesting about the start actions, was that they started before they "Started". That is, everyone stated at 0, presumably. But the spellcasters didn't officially start till 4 and 7. I guess it's just that the action isn't considered able to be interrupted until then.

It seems like Alice did decide who to shoot at the last second. An interesting point you could have is an aiming phase with the bow, where you decide who to aim at. The more time you spend aiming, the better your aim bonus, to a certain limit. This could make for an interesting decision of how long to aim a shot. After all, if the enemy has the chance to do something to make the shot harder, then it could be worse than if you loosed early.

With charging, this is why I suggested a system where you move every odd numbered tick or multiple of 3 or such. That way, you could direct you character more exactly as needed. In more simplified fashion, so long as Clarice's original target did not change much, like the orcs scattered, it would be fine.


From what I understood of his explanation, actions that happen at the same tick all happen simultaneously, so they cannot interrupt each other.

Slipperychicken
2016-05-12, 10:17 AM
Haven't tried it, but I know Pendragon has everyone resolve movement at once, in 1 yard intervals, and people with higher speed just keep moving after others stop for the turn.

Jormengand
2016-05-12, 01:16 PM
For 3.5 or similar: Everyone writes down their swift action. Then, everyone reveals their swift action at the same time. Repeat for move and standard (full moves are half resolved as move and half as standard. Full attacks are as close as possible done the same way, with priority to standard in case of odd numbers). If two people make incompatible actions, then roll initiative against each other. Whoever wins initiative gets to choose which action resolves first (for example, Jon the paladin wants to hit Jack the orc; Jack wants to move away. Either way, Jon will get an attack of opportunity, but if Jack wins initiative, Jon can't make his normal attacks against Jack).

For systems which simply have move and attack, it's a lot easier:


Everyone writes down their move.
Everyone reveals their move and goes to their square. If one player would block another by going to an interposing or the same square, roll initiative. If the blocking character wins initiative, they successfully block the other character. Consider an initiative bonus for each square less you had to move to get there.
Everyone writes down their attack.
Everyone reveals their attack, and they're all resolved at once. Even if you die, you still get to attack back because you're really attacking at the same time. If your attack would be blocked by someone else's attack (for example, someone uses a knockback kick and sends someone out of your line of sight), roll initiative again.


Inquisitor has a far more involved system that is turn-based, but also has a similar weirdness with your actions possibly becoming impossible, and stopping to catch your breath so that you can assign your actions again.

Firest Kathon
2016-05-12, 02:57 PM
Try looking at Exalted (at least 2nd edition-not sure about others). It has a "Join Battle" roll instead of an Initiative roll, but they essentially mean the same thing.

However, after that, you have a 'tick' wheel, where ticks are a measure of time. Initiative just measures where each person starts. Whoever starts on tick 1 takes an action then, then tick 2, and so on. Each action takes so many ticks. 6 is standard, but some weapons or spells are faster, some slower. One character may use 6-7 tick attacks with heavy weapons, while another uses 3-4 tick light weapons to get slightly more actions.

The German RPG Splittermond uses a very similar system. The rulebook contains a tick board (image (http://splittermond.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Splittermond_Tickleiste.jpg)), you initiative roll determines where you start and you place your token there. The one on the lowest number acts. Their action determines how many ticks they move forward (actions are listed on the board, attacks/spells have different tick costs). After the action is resolved it is the player's turn who is now last in the order - this may be the same player again, if their action took only a few ticks. It just rolls over after 37.

Glimbur
2016-05-12, 05:56 PM
Street Fighter: The RPG has an interesting initiative system. Every maneuver has a Speed modifier, you add that to your base Dex score. That's the speed for that maneuver for you. Put that on your maneuver card. Each turn, everyone picks a maneuver card and puts it face down. The Referee counts up from 0, when your number is called you have to act. However, you can interrupt an action if you are faster than them. This last rule is what makes it interesting.

There is a little prep work to write cards for each character, and it does somewhat limit your options in combat (there is a 'stunt' card but it's nontrivial to set the Speed of it). On the other hand, it lets you have Chun-Li do a backflip kick to simultaneously hit Zangief and back away from him as he tries to grapple.

Agrippa
2016-05-12, 09:28 PM
The German RPG Splittermond uses a very similar system. The rulebook contains a tick board (image (http://splittermond.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Splittermond_Tickleiste.jpg)), you initiative roll determines where you start and you place your token there. The one on the lowest number acts. Their action determines how many ticks they move forward (actions are listed on the board, attacks/spells have different tick costs). After the action is resolved it is the player's turn who is now last in the order - this may be the same player again, if their action took only a few ticks. It just rolls over after 37.

Can you translate any of that board for me? I don't read German.

Jormengand
2016-05-13, 03:43 AM
Can you translate any of that board for me? I don't read German.

The bit at the bottom's just a list of "Action possibilities in a struggle" (Actions in combat), what type of action they are (such as "Continual action" for sprinting, "Immediate action" for throwing your shield or "Immediate reaction" for dropping things), their "Duration" in ticks, and the "Details" which include the fact that you can only take an attack of opportunity when provoked, and that sprinting allows you to move a number of metres equal to 3 times your GSW score, presumably an expression of movement speed. I don't know what the "Waiting field" and the "Ready field" at the top do, but I assume they're for holding actions that you're waiting for or that have been readied?

Firest Kathon
2016-05-13, 04:05 AM
Sure :smallsmile:. The large fields are for waiting and readying actions. Table is spoilered for length.



Action
Type
Duration
Special


Movement actions


Stand up (lying)
continuous action
6 ticks
-


Stand up (sitting/kneeling)
continuous action
3 Ticks
-


retreat from combat
immediate action
5 Ticks
Acrobatics vs. GW


Drop prone
immediate reaction
2 ticks
-


Crawl
continuous action
5 Ticks
1 meter


Walk
continuous action
5 ticks
speed in meters


Sprint
continuous action
10 ticks
3 x speed in metres


Melee actions


Melee attack
immediate action
weapon speed
-


Attack of opportunity
immediate reaction
weapon speed
when provoked


Find a Gap
continuous action
2-6 ticks
+1 on melee attacks per 2 ticks


Shield bash
immediate action
7 ticks
(Formula for attack and damage)


Ranged combat actions


Prepare
continuous action
weapon speed
Prepare range dattack


Aim
continuous action
2-6 ticks
+1 to ranged attack per 2 ticks


Ranged attack
immediate action
3 ticks
-


Defensive actions


Active defense
immediate reaction
3 ticks
Check against DC 15; +1 (+1 per success degree) on resistance


Evasive jump
immediate reaction
3 ticks
Acrobatics DC 15, damage -1 (-1 per success degree)


Break grapple
immediate action
5 ticks
Acrobatics/Athletics vs. enemy's ability


Other Actions


Take a breath
continuous action
8 ticks
heal 10+CON subdual damage


Focus magic
continuous action
depends on spell
prepares spell to be cast


Cast/Trigger a spell
immediate action
3 ticks
-


Drop an item
immediate action
0 ticks
-


Use an item
continuous action
5 ticks
may be required multiple times



IIRC the difference between continuous and immediate actions/reactions is that continuous can be interrupted. You can do actions only when it's your turn, but reactions at any time. Success degrees are reached if your roll result is some number (3? 5? sorry, can't remember) above the required DC (e.g. you need 15, you get 22, you have 2 success degrees).

Zombimode
2016-05-13, 05:16 AM
So you seem to ONLY make the casters state their "start" action, not the weapon users which is odd. How do you resolve multiples at the same complete point? I would suspect in order of whichever started first? How about if a complete and a start happen on the same point? starts before completes? completed before starts? can a caster about to start a spell choose to, sort of, lag a bit to see if he gets attacked first so that he can take the damage, then start the spell and not have to factor it into concentration?

First, I want make it clear that I did not present a new or different initiative system. This is just how AD&D individual initiative worked.
What I was getting at is a method for organisation. Instead of writing each initiative down and ordering it (each round!), which is quite time consuming, the DM counts up and players and the DM would announce if something happens at the respective initiative count. This is what I was trying to make clear with my little example.

That spellcasters announce that they start casting does not mean that there is something like a "start" for actions in general. Upon reflecting it, it might be that a house rule or at least an interpretation of my table slipped into my example.
The AD&D RAW basis for this issue is that when a creature takes damage while casting a spell the spellcasting is disrupted. Now, I don't know if the time interval for casting a spell was defined as [0, casters initiative count] or [casters initiative roll, casters initiative roll + casting time of the spell].
You have to consider that how my table played AD&D was HEAVILY influenced by the Infinity Engine games (Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale etc.). These games implemented AD&D's individual initiative system quite faithfully. In those games the actual time casting a spell is always the same for a specific spell. For Magic Missile it's about half a second while for Time Stop it is probably the whole 6 seconds that make a turn. The disruption of a spell did only occurred if the caster was damage while in casting animation.
This is why we tracked the beginning of casting a spell in addition the its resolution.

To your questions:
"How do you resolve multiples at the same complete point?"
As per AD&D rules, they all happen at once, regardless of how you actually resolve them at the table. If say two warriors would strike at each other at the same initiative count, both attacks would be resolved even if one of them would deal enough damage to take the opponent out of the fight.

"How about if a complete and a start happen on the same point?"
It means that the spell can't be disrupted. Since all spells have a casting time of at least 1 and there are no items, spells or abilities in AD&D to my knowledge that can decrease a spell's casting time I don't think this can come up in AD&D as written. But like I said, it would just mean that the spell can't be disrupted.
This is possible in Baldurs Gate 2: there is a amulet that decreases the casting time of the wearers spells by one. With the amulet casting a spell like Magic Missile it means that there is no delay between selecting the spell (and target) and the spell taking effect.

"can a caster about to start a spell choose to, sort of, lag a bit to see if he gets attacked first so that he can take the damage, then start the spell and not have to factor it into concentration?"
Hm, good question.
By RAW I don't think this is possible. By I don't have my old AD&D books at me anymore so I can't verify.
I think my table had a house rule concerning this but my memory fails me to recall the details.


Assuming that they have to declare their target during declaration, what could have happened if Clarice had said "charge the priest" but then rolled a 10 instead of a 1? And if the magic missile and the bow shot had finished the priest off? The priest would have been dead before she even started her action. Does her round waste? Does she get to shift to a second target?

Also very good question to that I don't know the RAW answer (or if there even IS such an answer). I think at my table we were rather lenient in such matters. Meaning that you would pick targets for spells and attacks when you initiative comes up provided there are applicable targets for you to reach. It is probably hard to formalize this stuff, but in actual gameplay we didn't have much problems with it. Most of the time the context makes it clear what kinds of altering your course of action is possible.
Taking Infinity Engine games as a model, though, the answer in all the cases you've mentioned would mean, yes, you would have wasted your turn.

Eisirt
2016-05-13, 09:05 AM
The old West End version of Star Wars used the following system.

Actions were declared in order from the lowest perception-score up to the highest and then resolved all in one go from the highest dexterity-score down to the lowest.

So people with high perception could see what other people were planning to do before they could decide what they would do themselves.

And people with high dexterity scores have their actions acted out in front of people with lower dexterity scores, sometimes making the lower dexterity actions impossible and thus interrupting those.

And since it was impossible to have both really high you always ended up with either both low, both in the middle or one of the two high while the other was mediocre or low.... it had a certain elegance.