Arcane Caster feats advice

[Rofltrollcopter]

Hi Everyone, I'm a newbie to Pathfinder, and I haven't had a lot of experience playing arcane casters in 3.5 either.

I'm having trouble understanding the role that feats have for arcane casters in Pathfinder. The majority of guides that I have seen have asserted that Arcane casters have a lot of difficulty with picking up the feats that they need. I've done some digging around on my own, and I don't understand where this viewpoint comes from, in the sense that I have been having trouble finding feats that I think are worthwhile. I'm not sure if I am missing something with regards to how arcane casters are meant to be played.

To provide more context, I am specifically looking at building an Arcanist with the School Savant: Foresight Archetype (with Illusion and Evocation as Opposed schools). I'm probably going to go human, if I can figure out whether or not the bonus feat is necessary. Statwise, I'm probably going to treat Cha as a dump stat. I am specifically attempting to avoid the Summon Monster line of spells in order to make this character feel more distinct from previous characters. The goal is to focus on battlefield control shenanigans.

To break down some of my more specific quandaries:

1. Toughness seems to be universally recommended. Given that the Favored Class Bonus is a mechanic in Pathfinder, shouldn't it possible to boost Hp to a sufficient amount using that instead? How useful is 20 hitpoints over the course of an Adventurers Career?

2. It seems that the majority of caster builds orient are based on Spell Perfection (using metamagic feats like Quicken, Persistent, Reach). What spells are good for taking Spell Perfection with?

3. I'll be participating in the Hell's Vengeance campaign, so I am expecting good aligned outsiders to be a reoccurring enemy. Is Spell Penetration particularly useful, or are there are other alternatives that should be considered?

4. Other feats I am considering are Improved Familar and Craft Wondrous Item. Are there any other notable feats that I am missing?

Any advice would be appreciated.

[avr]

Uh... toughness is not a feat I'd recommend. Sure it gives you a slightly larger margin of error when you screw up, but only slightly.

Spell Perfection is an excellent level 15 feat to take but most campaigns are at least 3/4 over by that point. Or they end before that point one way or another. If you're a blaster you take it with your favourite damaging spell, likewise if you're a primarily a battlefield controller using Dazing Spell, alternately you take it with a useful spell to quicken - anything from Mirror Image to Summon Monster V.

Persistent Spell & Spell Focus are more regularly useful than Spell Penetration IME. I have no idea who you face in that AP. You may be able to get away with a few pinches of Dweomer's Essence, no-SR spells like summons and glitterdust, and of course buffing your allies.

IME if you're playing a wizard or sorcerer (as opposed to an arcanist, magus, bard etc.) you tend to have a few feats more than you need available. That said Improved Initiative is notably handy for you, also you can take wizard discoveries with normal feats if you're a wizard which is often useful, if you get a familiar with the Valet archetype then Improved Spell Sharing is worthwhile (if it doesn't get that archetype, get Improved Share Spells after level 10; they're not the same feat), if you're into raising undead then Undead Master may be worthwhile, if you're into summoning then Academae Graduate is vital.

[Kurald Galain]

The majority of guides that I have seen have asserted that Arcane casters have a lot of difficulty with picking up the feats that they need.
I don't think I've seen this viewpoint before, and I don't agree with it either.

Toughness is decent but not great; if you want defensive feats, look into something that boosts your saving throws (or take traits like Glory of Old or Lessons of Chaldira).

Spell Perfection is irrelevant in most campaigns, since most campaigns never get to level 15 in the first place. That said, Enervation is a good choice.

But yeah, good caster feats include metamagic, CWI, imp init, and something for your familiar. I'd take Spell Focus / Greater before spell penetration, though, as it applies more often. If these sound a bit boring, just look at the breadth of your spell list.

[Psyren]

1. Toughness seems to be universally recommended. Given that the Favored Class Bonus is a mechanic in Pathfinder, shouldn't it possible to boost Hp to a sufficient amount using that instead? How useful is 20 hitpoints over the course of an Adventurers Career?

It's not. Where are you reading this? Most of the handbooks I've seen recommend things like Metamagic, Extra Reservoir, item creation, Expanded Arcana etc. There's lots more useful things for you long before you get to hit points.



2. It seems that the majority of caster builds orient are based on Spell Perfection (using metamagic feats like Quicken, Persistent, Reach). What spells are good for taking Spell Perfection with?

3. I'll be participating in the Hell's Vengeance campaign, so I am expecting good aligned outsiders to be a reoccurring enemy. Is Spell Penetration particularly useful, or are there are other alternatives that should be considered?

Spell Perfection comes online very late in the game. I don't know the level range for the AP you're planning to run but I wouldn't count on this being available for most of it.

As for Spell Penetration, it can come in handy but usually its better to just prep SR:No speslls to deal with high-SR targets, bypassing the issue entirely and saving you a feat. For example, you can just summon something nasty to go and grapple the problem, or better yet buff your fighter so they can handle it.



4. Other feats I am considering are Improved Familar and Craft Wondrous Item. Are there any other notable feats that I am missing?

See above, and definitely don't go for toughness unless your Con is very low (less than 12 after race and favored class bonuses.) And even then, if you want more hitpoints, I'd just prep False Life and its greater cousin instead, and stay off the front lines.

[Rumo]

I find this thread interesting because I have that problem with my Wizard: So many feats (even extras every some levels) and so little use for them. Of course Improved Initiative is always worth taking, especially since you seem to go for battlefield control.
But with the School Savant you lose so many exploits, I would think that almost every feat should be an extra exploit, at least in the earlier levels. Personally I wouldn't dump CHA because I'm a big fan of (advanced) counterspelling. I'm aware that everyone says it's crap, and it might be a bit situational, but when it comes to use it can be incredibly helpful, disrupting enemies' plans without spending any actions.

[Florian]

Are there any other notable feats that I am missing?

Any advice would be appreciated.

I think you're making a common mistake here.

First, you look at what you actually want to do in the game, then you search for high-synergy feats that support that.

So, good at summoning? There's a feat chain there. Master at Calling? There're feats for that, and so on.

Be precise at what you want to actually do in game, then feat commentations would be simpler and more effective.

[Geddy2112]

Seconding the above, but adding in that toughness comes into more relevance if you have a familiar that you plan to use in combat or to deliver touch spells. Since your familiar gets half of your HP, boosting yours boosts theirs.

But you are always better with improved familiar, improved initiative, spell focus, spell perfection, spell focus and greater, and other school related feats. Augment summons is a must have for any summoner, while effortless trickery is great for gnome illusionists.

There are also tons of good metamagic feats to look into.

[Florian]

Some thoughts on "Hell´s Vengeance".

This AP follows some of the encounter design principles we could already see in Hell´s Rebels.
Amongst other things, that means a chunk of mooks (3-6 regular human fighters) with in-combat cleric support and an APL+ Paladin or Celestial as BBEG. There´s also some intra-evil combat going on, so it´s good to be prepared for that, too.

Battlefield Control and Buffing are huge things here, as "goodly" enemies can actually be pretty tough to put down, them not having to look after their resources and all that.
Due to all the Resistance and Immunities scattered around the various outsider types, it´s actually a bad idea to focus on any form of arcane blasting in this AP, besides quick and efficient look removal.

[Rofltrollcopter]

Thanks for all the feedback! I'm slowly crawling my way up the learning curve.


It's not. Where are you reading this? Most of the handbooks I've seen recommend things like Metamagic, Extra Reservoir, item creation, Expanded Arcana etc. There's lots
more useful things for you long before you get to hit points.


Here were a couple of the guides I was looking at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EjwZkuIDLUO4M_snPEeUdMWBIBz1jFk28e9HeEjUDu8/edit?pref=2&pli=1
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmafMuRRd3ubCMhCNmOomLUn_YvaVXiHwSyuC1YDrNc/edit


I
As for Spell Penetration, it can come in handy but usually its better to just prep SR:No speslls to deal with high-SR targets, bypassing the issue entirely and saving you a feat. For example, you can just summon something nasty to go and grapple the problem, or better yet buff your fighter so they can handle it.


Is there a school that tends to have more of these types of spells?


I think you're making a common mistake here.

First, you look at what you actually want to do in the game, then you search for high-synergy feats that support that.

So, good at summoning? There's a feat chain there. Master at Calling? There're feats for that, and so on.

Be precise at what you want to actually do in game, then feat commentations would be simpler and more effective.

I'm trying to focus on Battlefield control using debuffs and buffing, while trying to refrain from Blasting or Summoning.

Besides metamagic, are there feats that are synergetic with that strategy? I know there are the spell focus feats, but I'm not sure how useful +1 to dc per school is, since its only a 5% increase

How would this look as potential build?

1: Improved Init
B: Extra Exploit: Familiar
3: Spell Focus (Conjuration) (assuming Conjuration has the most crowd control avialable)
5: Craft Wondrous Item
7: Improved Familar
9: Persistent Spell
11: Quicken Spell
13: Dazing Spell
15: Spell Perfection

[Psyren]

Here were a couple of the guides I was looking at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EjwZkuIDLUO4M_snPEeUdMWBIBz1jFk28e9HeEjUDu8/edit?pref=2&pli=1
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmafMuRRd3ubCMhCNmOomLUn_YvaVXiHwSyuC1YDrNc/edit

Only the first of those rates Toughness blue, and I can't imagine why. He even says to take it at level 1 for maximum benefit, but it has the same effect no matter when you take it. (Well, I guess getting more hit points is most more relevant at level 1 when you have few other defenses, but still, it's a waste of a feat without retraining.)


Is there a school that tends to have more of these types of spells?

Yes - Conjuration, one of the many reasons it's the most powerful school.

Will comment on the build later.

[Florian]

@Rofltrollcopter:

The issue at hand is that most really solid BFC spells are centered around save:no and SR:no and based on the conjuration school. You actually chose them because they don´t have any interaction that would need to be pushed by feats or metamagic.

The second form of BCF is actually centered around blasting, making heavy use of meta magic to get some serious debuffing on. A Dazing Fireball or Rime Ray of Frost simply is effective on more than one level. That actually needs to be pushed with feats to reach peak performance.

Once you start pushing Conjuration, you´re halfway there to push Summoning and Calling as well, because of the shared feats to do so. It would be wasteful not to.

[SaintNick]

I like taking the Martial Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Martial-Training-I-Combat-) feat chain in Path of War on my casters if it's available. Most of the strikes are meant for martial classes, but the Boosts, Counters, and Stances work well on anyone.